Vies on the Special Edition FOTR

[Mithrandir]

I do not know how many times this has been brought up here(because I never really come here) but it is something I was interested in hearing everyones opinion on.

Yes I bought the DVD, I do not know why since I am one of the purists here who thinks Peter Jackson crapped on Tolkien's masterpiece, but yes I bought it. Maybe it is because I must own something that says Lord of the Rings, maybe it is because at least the first ten minutes are right on and I can watch that a million times now, whatever the reason I own it, and will probably buy the special edition one too. But this is where my question comes in. I was looking at the extras on the DVD, and I found myself checking out the special edition FOTR, and was shocked, to say the least.

Yes, some of those scenes from the book that were cut out from the movie were taking shape right before my very eyes. It was remarkable, I started to think, "OMG they did do it, maybe this PJ guy is not so bad." But then it hit me....

So, they did shoot some of the important stuff that was so essential to the book, GREAT! But wait, that can mean only one thing. The monster I refer to as PJ, felt it was more important to put HIS **** in the movie, than what was ACTUALLY there in the book. And thus, I found myself infuriated yet again.

This is where I am coming from, and I wanted to know, how do you all feel about it. The same, completely oppossite, something else, don't really care and think us purists should get a life, whatever your views are, please share.
~Mithers

[Darth Saruman]

Originally posted by Mithrandir
Yes I bought the DVD, I do not know why since I am one of the purists here who thinks Peter Jackson crapped on Tolkien's masterpiece, but yes I bought it. Maybe it is because I must own something that says Lord of the Rings, maybe it is because at least the first ten minutes are right on and I can watch that a million times now, whatever the reason I own it, and will probably buy the special edition one too. But this is where my question comes in. I was looking at the extras on the DVD, and I found myself checking out the special edition FOTR, and was shocked, to say the least.

Yes, some of those scenes from the book that were cut out from the movie were taking shape right before my very eyes. It was remarkable, I started to think, "OMG they did do it, maybe this PJ guy is not so bad." But then it hit me....

So, they did shoot some of the important stuff that was so essential to the book, GREAT! But wait, that can mean only one thing. The monster I refer to as PJ, felt it was more important to put HIS **** in the movie, than what was ACTUALLY there in the book. And thus, I found myself infuriated yet again.

This is where I am coming from, and I wanted to know, how do you all feel about it. The same, completely oppossite, something else, don't really care and think us purists should get a life, whatever your views are, please share.
~Mithers First of all, I would not call PJ a "monster" and, instead, save that description for guys who deserve it, like Hitler and Stalin. Secondly, yes, he felt it was important to put his "****" in the movie, because it was ultimately his movie, not Tolkien's. If the movie went down the crapper, it would have been PJ's ass and career on the line, not ours and especially not Tolkien's. Therefore, to make a successful, profitable, movie, PJ believed that he had to make changes to the original book. It was his movie and his career, so the changes were primarily his decision. Disagree with the changes, if you like, but don't damn him for them.

This new, extended edition will feature a number of scenes that will make the movie flow even better than it did as well as increase character and story development. They are great scenes to be sure, however they had to be erased in order to give the film a reasonable length for movie audiences. These scenes are not essential to the telling of the story, from the standpoint of the movie and, therefore, they had to be sacrificed.

[Talimon]

Good post! Happy to see someone pumped up around here. All the other purists seem to have lost thier juice.

First thing first. All signs point to the fact that New Line, not PJ, made the decision that the movie should be under 3 hours. So the question comes down to what do you cut and what do you leave.

Now you may think that PJ's priorities were weak, but there are 3 good arguments as to why the theatrical cut is the way it is. One, the only place that could really be cut was the action sequences, and those are far too precious from a marketing stand-point to even consider, especially in a movie such as this. Secondly, PJ has stated that he believes the experience of watching a film at home and in a crowded theatre are two completely different worlds. I couldn't agree more. Some scenes that work when watching a film alone are horrible when watching the same film in a crowd. Using his personal view on what a good theatrical movie should be like, he made the cut he thought would be most enjoyable. Thirdly you have to consider the non-Tolkien viewer, the type of audience that is going to make back your money. From this audiences perspective, things look completely different. You need to show Isengard as evil, because it isn't taken for granted. You need to explain how Gandalf was captured and released from Isengard. The fact is, if you haven't read the book, you have no way of knowing that Lorien was actually much longer in the book. It works in the movie.

Instead of cursing your head off, be thankfull for what is being presented to you, instead of *****ing left and right (pardon my French). The scenes aren't being presented as "deleted scenes", or even "extended scenes". They are being fully integrated, scored, and fleshed out as appropriate by Weta's special effects department. And for your ears only, New Line execs have accidently slipped out the word that the Extended Version of the film is the "archival" edition for generations to come. In other words, in 5 years, when you go to buy FotR, you won't even be considering the Theatrical release. And if you think PJ loved the theatrical release so much, why are all the special features on an edition that doesn't include the actual theatrical cut? The pieces don't fit together. 4 commentary tracks, all of them for the extended cut. Spread over 2 DVDs with maxed out bit rates for video and DTS sound for audio (leagues better then the treatment the August edition is getting). And the best part is that it's less then $10 more. You decide which edition PJ is more intent on supporting. Look past the PR announcements and let the releases speak for themselves.

By the way, I do find many purists to be sad and have no life nor taste, though I haven't encountered many such individuals on this board.

[SABOTAGE]

Bit harsh there Darth arent ya - the guy is afraid that his fave book has been 'commercialised' in film. A LOT of fans are.

I just think it a money scam - they wont have to hype this extended version at all coz the hype for TTT will take care of that - and this new dvd will sell MILLIONS!!!! coz of the extra scenes. The were deliberatley filmed for a future dvd release - one of the conditions New Line made w/PJ I'll bet.

[Aerin]

I think the special edition of the LotR PJ has condescended to give us is a rip-off; if he was so worried about the movie, why wait so long to release the special edition? It's like George Lucas waiting eight months to release Episode I on DVD after the VHS was released... :rolleyes:

So, they did shoot some of the important stuff that was so essential to the book, GREAT! But wait, that can mean only one thing. The monster I refer to as PJ, felt it was more important to put HIS **** in the movie, than what was ACTUALLY there in the book. And thus, I found myself infuriated yet again.

That is my sentiment in the whole PJ debate... If Peter Jackson admittedly loves Tolkien's works so much he's willing to make a movie, why is so much of it HIS creation? Perhaps it's morals (or fanatacism to the Professor's works ;)) that would make me, in PJ's shoes, stay as close as humanly possible to the original storyline.

By reading my previous posts in this forum, one will find my opinion on the scenes PJ "deleted because they were not necessary for the story". As of now, I don't really want to have to re-type them. :p

Talimon, just because one is labeled a "purist" does not mean one has no life or have no taste. It just means one is devoted to the works that one thinks are worth the time and effort to defend them.
And no, we purists haven't "lost our juice". The only reason this purist hasn't been posting in here is because I just moved and am rather disgusted by all the "Legolas is a hottie" threads...

[Darth Saruman]

Originally posted by SABOTAGE
Bit harsh there Darth arent ya - the guy is afraid that his fave book has been 'commercialised' in film. A LOT of fans are.

I just think it a money scam - they wont have to hype this extended version at all coz the hype for TTT will take care of that - and this new dvd will sell MILLIONS!!!! coz of the extra scenes. The were deliberatley filmed for a future dvd release - one of the conditions New Line made w/PJ I'll bet. At least New Line was open about the whole thing. The moment I heard there was going to be a DVD on LOTR in August, I also heard that there was going to be another edition in November. There was no subterfuge here. They even tell you on the DVD that there's another edition on the way. True, they don't tell you on the package itself, but from a marketing standpoint it would be stupid for them to do so, because yes, they are out to make money.

However, the only people being cheated here are those who don't bother researching the purchase they are making. If consumers took a little initiative, they could easily find out that there will be an extended edition later on.

Now, I'll admit that there might be some point in the future, maybe after all of the trilogies are release, where New Line will release some "ultimate box set" edition. That is their perogative and we don't necessarily have to buy if we choose not to do so.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
4 commentary tracks, all of them for the extended cut. Spread over 2 DVDs with maxed out bit rates for video and DTS sound for audio (leagues better then the treatment the August edition is getting).
Talimon, you make a lot of good points, but I differ with you on this a bit.

You're ignoring one important fact - the Theaterical Edition has maxed out what can fit on one disc. 3 hour feature + DD + Dolby 2.0. There's not even a foreign language track which there usually is. They had to reneg on the promised "fan club credits" because of space. I don't think they skimped on bit-rates on either the DD or the picture, based on the reviews of the disc (most calling it absolutely impeccible in picture and sound terms - a new reference disc). It's a big deal to decide to spread the feature to two discs. Since they were able to fit all the necessary pieces onto one disc with great resolution, going to two didn't make sense. But with the Extended version, once you add 30 minutes, there's no way to fit it onto one disc. And since you've got all this extra space on the second disc, why not add gobs of commentary tracks and even DTS for good measure? The lack of commentary and DTS on the Theaterical release is unfortunate, but it just makes sense to keep it all on one disc.

Nevertheless, I'm awaiting with anticipating those commentary tracks and the extra 30 minutes. And as for DTS...I'm no longer convinced that it makes and appreciable difference, if any. In theory it should be better than DD, but I've never heard any difference and I've never heard anyone else honestly claim to (though I must admit, I always switch on the DTS if it's available).

And for your ears only, New Line execs have accidently slipped out the word that the Extended Version of the film is the "archival" edition for generations to come. In other words, in 5 years, when you go to buy FotR, you won't even be considering the Theatrical release.
I don't doubt this, but I'd not heard it. Where did you hear this?

[SABOTAGE]

Originally posted by Darth Saruman

However, the only people being cheated here are those who don't bother researching the purchase they are making. If consumers took a little initiative, they could easily find out that there will be an extended edition later on.



The VAST majority of those dvd's sold will be by the general poublic who are not die-hards, and who don't come to sites like this. They shouldn't HAVE to research the web looking for info.

I know if I bought that dvd, and I saw the promotion for the extended version I would be very ****ed off about it, and try get my money back.

[Darth Saruman]

DVD's have been out for quite a while. It is a known fact that they come out with multiple editions for movie releases these days. I just think that people should be smart when it comes to buying a particular version.

[SABOTAGE]

Originally posted by Darth Saruman
DVD's have been out for qute a while. It is a known fact that they come out with multiple editions for movie releases these days. I just think that people should be smart when it comes to buying a particular version.

Yeah, thats true. I'm just glad I found out about the Nov. release and didn't buy the current version.

And I hope this extended version is the absolute finished product and New Line don't release a special box set of the eventual 3 films together with even more extra scenes to help sell it.

[PRH]

Originally posted by SABOTAGE
And I hope this extended version is the absolute finished product and New Line don't release a special box set of the eventual 3 films together with even more extra scenes to help sell it.
Are you serious? If they want to make a 4 hr FOTR in the future, I'll buy that too, gladly!

[Grond]

The whole trick to allowing oneself (in my case A total diehard purist Tolkein fan) to enjoy the movie is to completely detach it from the book. I agree with all the purists (myself included) that PJ has totally mucked up the story. He has added things that are nonsensical and unnecessary; he has deleted things that should have remained; he has enhanced characterizations which, I'm sure, have good JRRT rolling in his grave.

I enjoy the movie by realizing that (NOW) I will never really see my favorite book in the whole wide world brought to the screen. It was attempted in 1977 and busted. It was attempted in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and busted. Fortunately for us though, the current attempt has made a fine movie, albeit in many aspects unrecognizable as a work of JRRT. I've bought the theatrical DVD. I'll buy the extended version. Heck... I'll buy em all..... but I won't be satisfied... just entertained. :)

[Talimon]

Nevertheless, I'm awaiting with anticipating those commentary tracks and the extra 30 minutes. And as for DTS...I'm no longer convinced that it makes and appreciable difference, if any. In theory it should be better than DD, but I've never heard any difference and I've never heard anyone else honestly claim to (though I must admit, I always switch on the DTS if it's available).


When I mean maxed out bit rates i refer to video quality. While I've only heard good stuff about the Theatrical release, I've heard from a couple sources that there is a tiny bit of MPEG-2 compression in a few spots. It's not very noticeable, but it's there.

Two things regarding DTS. One, you need to have a good sound system to even have a chance at noticing the difference. Once that is said and done, it really depends on the movie. For example, watching Austin Powers on DTS won't do much for you. But if you really want to notice a difference, go get the DTS copy of Saving Private Ryan. Turn up the volume and be ready for an experience. Obviously the difference isn't cruicial, and the only reason I even point it out is this: It shows which edition New Line is giving a finer treatment. If it really mattered they could have split the film onto 2 DVD's and used the extra space left on each to pad in the special features. At worst we'd have a program less then we have now. No one would be crying.

The quotes from New Line regarding it being the "archival" edition were in an article from the SF Chronicle a week ago. I already threw away the paper, but I'll see if they have the article on thier site yet.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
the only reason I even point it out is this: It shows which edition New Line is giving a finer treatment.
What do you think would have happened if the Theaterical Edition was 2 1/2 hrs and the Extended was 3 hours? I bet the Theaterical would've had the commentary tracks & DTS and the Extended would've had only DD, & Dolby 2.0 with no commentary and it would've still been on one disc. Just a hunch.

You may be right, only I think you're discounting the whole aspect of spreading the feature across two discs. That was a big decision. Very few movies go to that level of (physical) complexity.

No bid deal. I'm sure the Extended will be the "archival" edition (at least compared to the Theaterical) at any rate.

That'd be cool if you find that quote btw - thanks!

[Ariana Undomiel]

Ok, fellow Tolkien fans, let's watch our language. We might have some fairly young writers and readers on this forum.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I adore both the Lord of the Rings books and the movie. But as other have already pointed out, one was Tolkien's and the other was simply a modern day director making a movie that happens to be from one of the most popular books of the 20th century. True, he did have a lot of stuff that was different from the books, but over all he did a wonderful job and Tolkien fans who wanted a movie should be happy with it. I doubt anyone could have done much better.

~Ariana

[SABOTAGE]

Originally posted by PRH

Are you serious? If they want to make a 4 hr FOTR in the future, I'll buy that too, gladly!

If this were to happen - you wouldn't feel ripped off? - New Line deliberatly holding back scenes to make another cash-killing.

That would do my head in - who the hell is going to bother looking at the theatre version after November? - to watch a few documentaries????? and the same goes for the Nov. version - if that isn't the FINAL cut - then I'm not interested. I want the finished product - nothing less.

[zeldamaster13]

***We at theTolkienForum.com have set things up so that nearly anybody with an E-Mail address can join and participate. For this reason we do not permit the use by other people anybody's account and so this post, not having been made by the owner of the account, has been deleted***

[PRH]

Originally posted by SABOTAGE
If this were to happen - you wouldn't feel ripped off? - New Line deliberatly holding back scenes to make another cash-killing.
Not really. As long as it's done within reason. The next logical time to add scenes would be a box set in 2004 and I wouldn't fault NLC/PJ at all for extended FOTR again to entice us to buy the box set of the trilogy. I'm not gonna buy a new copy every 6 months in perpetuity just because they add one more scene though, these things have limits!

who the hell is going to bother looking at the theatre version after November? - to watch a few documentaries?????
There is the slim possibility that the Extended cut will just be boring. I hope not, but I wouldn't count the Theaterical Cut out just yet.

[Darth Saruman]

Originally posted by PRH
There is the slim possibility that the Extended cut will just be boring. I hope not, but I wouldn't count the Theaterical Cut out just yet. I believe that one of the main benefits to the added footage is that they will smooth over the transition between scenes in the movie. This is something that just couldn't really be helped, if they wanted to remain true to the book within the 3 hour time limit. One of the criticisms of the movie is that it leaped too quickly between events, such as the transition between Lothlorien and the Anduin River. By making each event a little longer, the movie might flow smoother.

[Talimon]

There are really only 2 good reasons (for me personally) to get the August DVD. One, I am willing to spend $20 just to watch the actual feature until November. Considering that I payed something like $5-8 each of numerous times I saw it in the theatre, it's worth it.

The second reason is for the actual release. The release holds worth for two reasons: One, its different and perhaps even better then the Extended Cut. And two, it holds something of a collectors value to it. That is to say, non of the footage that's on this release is on the November edition. So I can justify it from that point of view.

The more I think about it the more I find myself justifying the August release. I guess my main argument however would just be the fact that it will pay off the $20 it cost me considering how many times I'll watch it until November. So from a purely logical standpoint, if when November 12'th comes around I throw away my August release I still think the purchase will have been worth it only for the enjoyment it offers in these 3 months. Luckily it happens to work out that I don't feel that my money is ripped besides the point. Look at what you get for other DVDs at the same price and it's really a good deal.

[Grond]

Originally posted by zeldamaster13
I completely agree with Ariana. For all of you "purists" who blame PJ for completely messing up the movie, go pet a kraken. First of all, if he had made the movie so that it fit the wants of every Tolkien fan, the movie would be too long and non-Tolkien readers would not understand or like it. I know this has already been said, and Ariana summed it all up well, but I just have to agree as it is also my opinion.

ps - if you insulted PJ, I challenge you to start a directing career and make a movie better than his. Just try it! You won't get anywhere, so don't knock him.

pps - I am not Zeldamaster13, I am his brother. So get mad at
Brother of Zeldamaster13, not him.

ppps - is it true that there are carved figures in the extended edition DVD? I just wondered if you've ever read the books, Zeldamaster13's brother??? Also, I've never said that PJ completely messed up the movie. I (and most other purists) have repeatedly accused him of not remaining TRUE to the book, not just in exercising "Directorial privilege" by editing and omitting scenes but by blatantly changing characterizations. I also accuse him of trying to "convey" how sacred he held the works of JRRT, while at the same time changing much of what the author wrote.

Aragil, I am still working on your list of PJ's comments concerning his "spiritual affinity" with Tolkien. I read the Official Movie Guide last night and while PJ does state that he will be varying from the book, he turns right around and quotes that before each scene they read the appropriate chapter to make sure they got the "spirit" of Tolkien in each one. I guess he didn't read "The Flight to the Ford" chapter at all, because none of the spirit of Tolkien is in that scene.

As for the rest of the movie fans. I am truly glad that you've enjoyed the movie and hold it in such high esteem (I think it is a very, very good movie). I hope, even more, that viewing it makes you interested enough in the book to read it. Once you read it, you'll understand why the purists find it to be less than Tolkien. :(

[Rúmil]

Well I'm looking forward to the commentary tracks of the FTTF in November; I wonder will he try to justify himself or will he just say: oh, watch this beautiful peformance by Liv Taylor here...

PS: you mean it only costs $20 in the US? how much did youy pay for it exactly?

[ReadWryt]

Therefore, to make a successful, profitable, movie, PJ believed that he had to make changes to the original book.

Please, by all means...educate me on what things Jackson added to the story which contributed to the profitablility of the movie, or why the things removed or replaced would have detracted...in your opinion of course.

Instead of cursing your head off, be thankfull for what is being presented to you, instead of *****ing left and right (pardon my French).

I'm sorry, this is like the "...because you can't make a better movie yourself" argument, spurious and meaningless to the conversation. The truth is that if I mention that I am hungry and pay someone to prepare me a lunch, and they give me a marvelous looking rack of Baby Back Ribs in Bat Guano sauce, I still have a lovely looking but un-paletable meal before me and have every right to go "cursing my head off". Just because I prefer to stand up and speak on what *I* actually like and don't like instead of letting some Hollywood "focus group" driven marketing machine bend me over and TELL me what I like and don't like doesn't mean that I have to feel thankfull for anything. Just remember how many of the fans on this forum spoke rudely and to extent about how rotten a movie "A Beautiful Mind" was and remember that it was produced by the same bunch of marketing weenies. I'm not saying that these guys are completely incapable of turning out good stuff, just that for all the times I've been accused of being a hypocrite for my purist beliefs I can honestly claim that I NEVER told anyone speaking badly about that Movie that they shouldn't complain because they should be "thankfull" or that "they couldn't make a better movie themselves".

At least New Line was open about the whole thing. The moment I heard there was going to be a DVD on LOTR in August, I also heard that there was going to be another edition in November.

...yeah, wide open...except that New Line STILL has said nothing to the Charter Members of the Official Movie Fan Club appologising for letting Jackson make liars out of them by causing the "Credit Scroll" promised to them to be in all the DVD releases be removed from the one that's out now, making certain that those people would be forced to purchase the more expensive product to obtain a copy with their name in it...

[Talimon]

I'm sorry, this is like the "...because you can't make a better movie yourself" argument, spurious and meaningless to the conversation. The truth is that if I mention that I am hungry and pay someone to prepare me a lunch, and they give me a marvelous looking rack of Baby Back Ribs in Bat Guano sauce, I still have a lovely looking but un-paletable meal before me and have every right to go "cursing my head off". Just because I prefer to stand up and speak on what *I* actually like and don't like instead of letting some Hollywood "focus group" driven marketing machine bend me over and TELL me what I like and don't like doesn't mean that I have to feel thankfull for anything. Just remember how many of the fans on this forum spoke rudely and to extent about how rotten a movie "A Beautiful Mind" was and remember that it was produced by the same bunch of marketing weenies. I'm not saying that these guys are completely incapable of turning out good stuff, just that for all the times I've been accused of being a hypocrite for my purist beliefs I can honestly claim that I NEVER told anyone speaking badly about that Movie that they shouldn't complain because they should be "thankfull" or that "they couldn't make a better movie themselves".

That's all very touching, but go back and read what I made that comment about. I was talking about the fact that someone was complaining about the Extended cut because the scenes being included weren't in the theatrical cut, thus showing PJ's priorities. Instead of being happy that PJ has the chance to show us the full picture, he went and used that very argument against him by saying that he had chosen to cut those extra scenes from the theatrical cut. To me that is just a PJ critic clutching at straws.

PS: you mean it only costs $20 in the US? how much did youy pay for it exactly?

It's actually less. Go check out www.amazon.com, and search for the Theatrical DVD. It costs, without shipping and handling, $18. However, if your total purchase is over $50 then you don't pay shipping and handling. Since I was already buying 2 other DVD's, and only needed another $5 to get the free shipping, I said "what the hell" and just did it. I would have test-drived a Kia but they ran out of stock :(. My way of rationalizing it is this: I payed $8 each time I saw the movie in the theatre (non-matinae). When you take that into account, what is $18, even if I never touch the theatrical cut again after November? It's more of a pride issue that's nagging me, really. But my brilliant mind has already found a good rationale for that as well. Since both releases don't have any shared features, the Theatrical cut holds a collectors value as well. You know, I'll be able to have all those old worthless features 10 years from now, not to mention the stupid trailers.

Oh, and my final alibi is the fact that I'm supporting the good ol' US economy. ;)

[PRH]

Talimon, quit apologizing for buying the Theaterical version. I never felt bad for a second. The two versions could just be the exact same disc with slightly different covers (thank goodness they didn't pull that ****...) and that can be reason enough to buy both if you're really into the movie. Hold your head high!

NLC put out an excellent movie and they deserve to make gobs of money off the DVD sales.

[Grond]

Originally posted by PRH
Talimon, quit apologizing for buying the Theaterical version. I never felt bad for a second. The two versions could just be the exact same disc with slightly different covers (thank goodness they didn't pull that ****...) and that can be reason enough to buy both if you're really into the movie. Hold your head high!

NLC put out an excellent movie and they deserve to make gobs of money off the DVD sales. I almost had a heart attack. I thought you said that they did make different covers for the DVD and I could see myself running out to buy another 2 or 3 copies of the Theatrical Version. Whew!!! I'm glad I misread your post.

I agree with you completely. There is no shame in buying both versions. I intend to and what's worse is that in another couple of years, I'll be first in line for the complete boxed sets. I'm sure they'll make a theatrical boxed set and an extended cut boxed set as well.

*Grond looks in his billfold and gets out an amortization schedule to see how much he'll have to save weekly to afford his Tolkien habit!*

"Damn, why couldn't I just have become addicted to drugs instead!" :);)

[SABOTAGE]

I'm gonna get a 5 hour tape and stick the 3 extended films on it on long play!