Is lotr racist?

[Spectre]

I'm just bringing attention this excerpt from an article from Chris Henning, a writer from Australia.

Our response is no different from our view of orcs in Lord of the Rings. It is a racist view of the world, and to that extent, Harry Potter's appeal is to the racist within us.
Just because Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings can be seen as racist is no reason to ban them, restrict their circulation or protect the vulnerable from them. Far from it - they are wonderful stories. But we should see them for what they are, and know that that is their appeal. We should ask why their appeal is so great.

Harry and the hobbits, with their takeaway racism, offer the same comfort for the whole world: join our tribe, be special with us, despise our subhumans.

You can view the article at this address :

http://old.smh.com.au/news/0112/13/opinion/opinion3.html

It contains opinions on Harry Potter as well.

I'm posting this to find out your opinions and thoughts on his ideas. I'm just curious to see what other people feel about these comments, and if they agree or disagree with this writer. I'll give my personal opinion on the subject in a later post, if we get a good discussion going :)


Fixed Link --<B>--

[Walter]

We already had recent threads dealing with "LotR as a religious parable", "LotR as a WW2-story", "LotR in the context of national-socialism", someone even came up with "LotR as a gay story" or "The politically correct modern Hobbit" so why not a thread about "LotR and Racism" if You must...

Although I personally prefer to see the LotR for what it is: A great story...

Oh - and, welcome to this forum, Spectre :)

[Merry]

Crumbs, I have never thought of LOTR as having racist content! Am I being nieve or is this journalist looking for some reason to pick fault in two great pieces of fantasy literature??

I disagree with his opinion

[Spectre]

Thanks Walter.
I just happened upon a link to this article on badassmofo.com and there was a slight discussion going on about it in the comments section of the page... but knowing the sort of people that visit badassmofo (including me..but I'm better than them..I swear!!) I figured it might be nice to hear from people who would have other thoughts on the subject.

As far as I'm concerned.. I think this is just a writer who wanted his 15 minutes of fame by posting some article about something "controversial" because attacking something that is popular at the moment is sure to get you some attention.

HOWEVER, on the other hand, some of his points may be valid.
I think it's understood that there are hints of racism in the books. Tolkien obviously had incorporated things from society at the time into the telling of the story, we all know that. And racism is something that just isn't going to go away, and surely could have influenced Tolkien when he wrote the books.

[Lifeling]

Is it considered racist when dragons are portayed as evil?

Another thing!
Obviously Tolkien had no racist intent. He was a devout Christian!
Im his article this guy says:

"Tolkien's entrancing vision has long been extraordinarily popular, not least with the far Right. If you have doubts, call up a few white supremacist sites on the Web. Tolkien is recommended reading for families hoping to bring up their children in a wholesome, racialist atmosphere. It sets the racist mental framework in an appealing and unchallenging way."

How many of you have ever read LOTR and felt more racist than you were before?

[Merry]

Even if the society that Tolkien lived in was bent towards racism, I cannot see how it is visible in LOTR?! The conflicts between the ORCs and other races were not due to skin colour or family backgrounds, rather because of their actions.

Gollum was not picked on, he was dealt with the 'appropriate' force as was needed. It must be a weak link that this journalist is using to try and blame Tolkien for racism.

[Walter]

Yes, of course parts of the story can be seen as racism as well as parts of the story can be seen as a religious parable, parts of the book can be seen as glorifying male chauvinism and parts of the book can be seen as glorifying female emancipation.

Funny thing with the article You refer to is, that I have read another comment lately where the analogy is drawn between Sauron & Hitler, the orc being the SS of Saurons empire...

But the point for me is

1) whether Tolkien intended to see his story in the context of one of these analogies or not, and

2) how much interpretation of an epos like LotR can be done without mistreating the work or the author...

PS: And there I will stick to Faramir's words "However, that is not for me to judge, happily!"

[Spectre]

Perhaps, before making judgements on this whole thing, one should read the letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. A book I happened upon at Chapters up here in Toronto. I didn't have the money to pick it up at the time, but I'm sure we could get a better understanding of questions such as this by reading those letters...

[Unicef]

What about the relationship between Legolas & Gimli? A friendship between two "races" that supposedly hate each other. It sounds like the author had a preconceived notion of what they wanted to read into the story. It's a shame.

[Gothmog]

In Lord of the Rings, Tolkien is working with the most basic forms. We refer to them as Good and Evil. Dark and Light. These basic forms allow the reader to see in the work whatever the reader brings to it. If you read the story with no preconceptions, you will feel the power and the intent of Tolkien even if you cannot put it into words. If however, you have a bias in your thinking (be it Homosexual, racist, animalistic or anything else.) You will be able to find something that you can use to prove your case.

So if someone can find evidence of racist themes it does not surprise me, it just shows what he brought to the reading.

JRR Tolkien put into his book what He wanted. Everything else is forced into it by the reader. If everything writen about the meanings found in the book was true then it would have had to be writen by about 30 different personalities.

Unicef, Why is it a Shame???:confused::confused: :confused:

[Unicef]

It's a shame that the reader (author of the linked article) had to bring those thoughts into their interpretation of the story. I wouldn't enjoy a book or books that I felt promoted racism. Especially these books that I have loved and re-read for 20 years. I agree with what you wrote Gothmog, I disagree with the linked article's premise.

[Gothmog]

Ah, thank you for your reply and expansion Unicef. I did not quite get the meaning of your first post sorry.:o Yes it is a great shame that he read into it such things.:(

[ReadWryt]

What a crock! This was a man who opposed the use of the term "Nordic" as it was historically a Racist Term!! Bah!

[Ancalagon]

What complete and utter tripe. This article is bereft of logical and constructive reasoning.

When a story is set in an era whereby travel between nations has largely not been established ( except possibly open trade routes or singular wanderers), of course each race would live within its own boundaries and borders. This is how are own nations were made and broken over centuries. However, the comparison between 'racism' as we would understand it in this era and the singularity of races within Tolkiens realm is unfathomable.

Because China, Europe, Asia and Africa each have indigenous peoples, whom for centuries lived within their own insular worlds, these peoples can simply be construed as racist? They are 'of a race', whereby they seek to retain their known identity. This does not mean 'races' are immune from war and terror upon neighbouring nations, tribes or villages. This still does not explain racism. Racism is defined as; belief in own superiority over those of other races.

This could not be a belief held by White, Black, Elf, Orc or Hobbit, this is a belief of the intolerent, the individuals who have no common ground to discover, no acceptance of culture distinct from their own, no desire to embrace those not visibly akin to themselves.
The author of the article has over-simplified the Tolkien realm by 'selective censorship' of the cultures within. For Tolkien to create a complete world, with a complete history would have taken as long as it has taken mankind to reach the age we now inhabit. Yet even within his realm he has divided the races as much as is humanly possible in his limited time for a writer of fiction.

A prime example would be Hobbits; they are divided and defined as Harfoots, Stoors and Fallohides, whereby even within this race they had there own misgivings and suspicions of each other. Outside of their borders they of course did not like 'foreigners' of any race, not because they were racist, simply because they misunderstood or were ignorant of them. This is not racism. In old english literature, these outsiders would be described as 'the other', for they had little to no knowledge of the race or culture. This does mean they felt themselves to be 'superior' to other races, they simply couldnt understand them.
Dwarves disliked Elves, Hobbits disliked everyone, Men fought among Men, yet strangely enough, for those who ventured outside their own dominions they might arrive at Bree and learn to understand those they knew least about.

Racism is a strong, and inflammatory term, easily uttered by the ignorant. To define a ficticious realm as racist, whereby the origins of each species still remains a mystery to 'the other', is over-simplified, over-zealous and ill-conceived
It amazes me when one relates the authors work to the the Third Reich and the War of 39-45. Germany as a nation had been duped into believing it was a master race, this of course was racism in its most raw form. A people who were nurtured with propaganda into accepting that if 'they' were different, 'they' were righteous. Their very identity was used to generate a fervour of National Pride that few would have believed could have led to the atrocities and carnage that followed. That is racism, possibly misunderstood by the nation on the whole, undoubtedly not seen as racist, nonetheless, racist.
What I find most incredible is how the writer of the article defines Tolkiens world; It is almost a parody of a Hitlerian vision Yet Hitlers vision included the extermination of anyone outside his own country (considering himself to be German, not Austrian), so Slavs, Jews, Poles and Russians, to name but a few, were all classified as inferior, even though they were genetically of white descent and ultimately related. Racism within a singular race? How could that be? I can see were Tolkiens own visions of 'race divide' stemmed from!!!!!
The lord of the Rings was already in Tolkiens imagination long before the installation of the Third Reich. Hitler was still a scrubber in Vienna when Sauron was devised and his fate sealed in the Authors mind. Having studied not only mythology, but history, the author had contemplated and devised a world that existed long before the advent of multiculturalism that we enjoy today. This does not however make his work 'racist'.
Understand the definition before making the generalisation.

[Gothmog]

I have had a good look at the article to see why he brought this up. What caught my eye was this.

Our clever and amoral Prime Minister has just won a third term, against expectations, by appealing to the racism and insecurity at the heart of the Australian psyche. Can these two disparate things be related in some way?

So it seems to me that the real reason for this attack on the So-called racism of these books is that it is a Political trick by a political hack of little Wit to score meaningless points off of his Government by pretending that these books are racist and thereby to prove that his Government is racist too.

All it realy shows is how little he understands of anything.

[syongstar]

weither a person is good or bad has nothing to do with their race ect.......it's whats in their mind and soul and anyone who thinks different is an ignorant fool living in the dark ages>pope John paul apologized for the racism of the ancient church that is from the rock of st. peter therefore we should forgive and FORGET!

[Ancalagon]

Oh, and I forgot to add to my last post; Harry Potter, couldnt care less what the article said.

[Elbereth547]

I have read the books a million times and I have never looked at it as racist. I mean, stories have always had black and white knights, good and evil.

[Greymantle]

I do not beleive Tolkien was not a racist. However, his stories can easily be viewed as such, with decent justification. The examples cited about Elves and Orcs make a lot of sense. However, we have to look at this story for what it is-- a tale, fiction. It is not meant to be a parable for real life, or be true in the sense of factuality at all. In an mythological world, there can be superior or brutal or even inferior races; racism, however, is the categorization of certain peoples as lesser. In a myth such as LotR, the races are truly devided. Observing this fact is not racism.
The reason that this can't apply to RL is the very fact that in the real world, race is a fabricated concept. It has no basis in biological fact; it is simply a human categorization. Therefore, calling one group of people a "race" and saying they are superior or inferior is, indeed, racism. So, indeed, is taking an ethnic group and calling them non-human, as Hitler did. The DISTINCTION with LotR is that in M-e there truly are barbaric races, such as the Orcs and the Trolls. The Elves are truly superior, being beautiful and wise beyond mortal compare. Unlike in RL, there are true "races" or species, and strong destinctions can be made between them. Most people do not consider, say, a racoon equal to a human. Neither are Elves and Orcs equal, as they come from different biological origins. This concept does not exist between humans, neither in the real world not in Tolkien; even the evil "races" of Men in M-e are considered ultimately human, fallable and limited, rather than Evil as the Orcs are.
What I do find racist is Peter Jackson making his Orcs brown-skinned, wearing dreadlocks, contrary to Tolkien's description. This is far too close to racist caricature for my comfort.
If you followed any of that, you deserve a medal.
The journalist's examples regarding HP are way out of the ballpark. I, in fact, considered the same concepts during my re-read over the last month. I realized, however, that while certain groups are gifted above others-- i.e. wizards/witches vs. Muggles-- none of the main characters have bias against any other groups. Indeed, the individuals who see others as lesser for whatever reason (the Dursleys to magic-users, Draco Malfoy and the Death Eaters to Muggles), are the cruel villians of the books. The "racists," as it were, are the only ones portrayed in a negative light. Furthermore, some of the most positive and heroic characters are ones who, in some manner, bridge the gaps between the two groups (Hermione or Arthur Weasley), for example. The author deals with these themes very well, and this writer is showing ignorance and a lack of respect for the both of these works by ignoring the context in which they are placed.
Phew!

[eric57]

First, it's a shame to mention "Harry Potter" and "The Lord of the RIngs" in the same sentence; nevertheless, I seem to have so done :-)

Anyway, I think that racism connotes a prejugded, negative set of ideas about another race or races, that can't be sustained by factual evidence. (e.g. White men can't jump or Black women can't swim).

Now Orcs ( and Goblins and Trolls ) would seem to be different species from the "good" folk in this saga. But I won't argue that point too finely as it conjures some unpleasant mental pictures!

It seems to me that JRT simply creates creatures such as Orcs and assigns them the property of being dangerous to non-Orcs. Perhaps their nature does compel readers to think of them as evil. That may be doing Orcs too much justice. Orcs just are what they are ( which happens to be unpleasant ).

I believe that Orcs and such are rather like crocodiles. It wouls not be racist to declare that "all crocodiles will try to eat us." It isn't even a prejudicial statement. Crocs were long ago judged by our ancestors to fit this statement. Note that some folks might extend croc motives from instinct to evil, but that seems a leap in logic launched from a slippery slope.

Orcs ( and Goblins and Trolls ) just are, and that just doesn't happen to be healthy to other creatures.

Some of the human-based characters are painted as evil by choice or influence, and their actions justify the epithet. Should calling Saruman or Sauron evil be considered racist?

Anyway, Tolkien, in his forward to editions beginning in (1971?), dismisses LOTR analogies to situations and characters is WW2. In other words, Orcs are neither the Drooling Hun nor the Japanese Horde racist characatures. He does admit to being shaped by his experiences in WW1 and WW2. How could he not? In those horrible conflicts, it would be hard not to believe in the idea of absolute Evil and superhuman Good.

The closest JRT comes to prejudicial, and thus racist, rhetoric involves the character of Smeagol / Gollum. The author keeps a running dialogue regarding the state of Gollum's mind and character ( there are many a dusty Thesis on this subject ). The author, primarily through Gandalf, often chastises those quick to label Gollum as wicked, worthless, and, yes, evil. One can't read these passages without thinking the JRT is arguing against prejudice or racism against even the most distant of human beings.

Those who analyze fiction for a living must often take a simple story and turn it into a complex allegory, or compilation of metaphors. Controversy generates more noise than insight. Sometimes a story is just entertainment. And if the story is good, then it "grows with the telling."

Regards,
Eric57

[Moonbeams]

Tolkien is anything but racist. Orcs are not hated because the elves are racist, they are hated because they are evil. Weren't orcs created by Melkor to be his race of evil creatures, and mockery of elves?
And when you concider how hobbits, elves, humans, eagles, and all the good creatures came together to fight orcs, giants, trolls, and evil humans, you see that it is a fight of good vs. evil, not one race against the other.
Ah.... It's a pitty what some ppl would invent to get a little publicity.

[Lantarion]

Quote from "The Independent", 17.10.01:
When The Lord of the Rings first appeared, some critics accused Tolkien of simply portraying goodies and baddies. CS Lewis loyally defended his friend from this charge, but not quite successfully. The charge has some truth. It may be that the "good" characters have their moral failings, but the forces of the Dark Lord are given no compensating virtues. Tolkien gives the orcs voices, and therefore humanity, but then encourages to think of them as vermin to be slaughtered: "Forty-two, Master Legolas!" cries Gimli the Dwarf, proud to have topped his friend's total of orc-killings. It's ugly.
Allied to this is the question of Tolkien's peculiar, and to modern minds, rather sinister, obsession with race. We will probably never know the degree to which his South African background encouraged him to present the "cruel Haradrim", the dark-skinned people of the extreme south of Middle-Earth, as naturally predisposed to the service of the Dark Lord, but Faramir's contention that the races of the South are not related to his own makes for uncomfortable reading, given that Tolkien is at pains to portray the character as unusually kindly and reflective. Perhaps it is the Hobbits who reveal Tolkien's true beliefs, as Sam gazes down at the dead body of a Southron warrior and wonders "what the man's name was, and where did he come from; and if he was really of evil heart, or what lies of threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not have rather lived there in peace."

I sort of agree with some of it, but not all. I think it portrays Tolkien not as a racist, but as a creator of metaphorical mysteries: which was his true opinion? The Hobbits' or Faramir's? I think there is no question about it, that he was with the Hobbits. But the author of this article seems to think differently. And he probably has good reasons: he's read the book 30 times.

[Greymantle]

Well, though Faramir makes the strong distinction between the line of Westernesse and the Southrons, that did not make him hate them. They are at war, but I don't remember him ever saying he hated them for what they were. But even so, I'm sure Tolkien's truer opinion was the hobbits'... they are the truest characters to the books, the ones with which the reader identifies. And even Tolkien said, "I am a hobbit in all but size."

[DGoeij]

Tolkien a racist?
Not on bases of what I have read. I'm talking about a letter wich professor Tolkien wrote to a German publisher in 1938 (date 25th of july). Note that the Nazi-regime in Germany was in power for 5 years then and there where racial-laws issued to complicate life for anyone either jewish or dealing with jews. Disgusting really.

Professor Tolkien refused to send to the publisher a statement of being of Arian birth (Arian was the so-called 'pure' northern race in Nazi ideologie). He specifically stated that he didn't know if he was, mocking the fact that it meant if he was of Indo-Iranian descent (true meaning of Arian, wich the Nazis rather forgot). And if the gentlemen happened to ask if he had to state that he was not of Jewish descent, he wasn't aware of any anscestors of this gifted people.

Now wouldn't a racist have given proof of his own 'purity' ?

[Walter]

Originally posted by Gothmog
So it seems to me that the real reason for this attack on the So-called racism of these books is that it is a Political trick by a political hack of little Wit to score meaningless points off of his Government by pretending that these books are racist and thereby to prove that his Government is racist too.

All it realy shows is how little he understands of anything.

My own thoughts were pretty much along that line, when I read the article. Tolkien and his epos are just being "abused" in the hope to gain a small political profit...

I only hope it backfires...

[Kris Rhodes]

In the strictest of senses, I would have to agree with the author that Tolkien's works exhibit quite a racist undercurrent.

But I do not think it is *fair* to call Tolkien a racist. I think a distinction needs to be made between racist declarations and racist assumptions - and while Tolkien may have made some of the latter, he never made any of the former.

And furthermore, the racist assumptions involved didn't deal with actual particular races in the actual world - in other words, no actual attitude to any actual persons in the world is indicated. Rather an attitude toward race in general is indicated. While it is ultimately a harmful attitude (that morality is determined by heritage and birth and that those who are not part of the "good guys"' race/group/tribe are by definition *all bad* in every concievable way) it is an attitude which is a *far* cry from saying "such and such person is bad because he has such and such color of skin."

In other words, we are talking about different kinds of racism.

Tolkien's racism is something I would prefer to call tribalism - a general unacknowledged but unchallenged assumption that the world is dividedd into "us" and "them" and "them" are naturally and irevocably bad in every way while "us" are naturally and irrevocably good. Toliens' works definitely exhibit this attitude.

But to say "Tolkien is a racist" in this day and age is to make it sound like Tolkien hates non-white people, and such is not the case. So I think the statement "tolkien is a racist" or "tolkiens work's exhibit racist leanings" are deceptive, in and of themselves. Though they may be true in the strict sense of the word "racist," most of us do not *use* the word strictly in casual conversation and for that reason, great care must be taken when making such statements.

So, replace "racism" with "tribalistic thinking" and I think you have put the problem more accurately.

-Kris

[Gothmog]

I do not understand what Racist undercurrent you speak of. Tolkien was writing about the battle between GOOD and EVIL or DARK and LIGHT. On the side of LIGHT (the naturally and irevocably GOOD) you have the Valar and the Maiar. On the side of DARK (the naturally and irevocably EVIL) you have Morgoth, Sauron, other Maiar turned to the Dark and the creatures twisted and bred by Morgoth. In between you have Elves, Dwarves, Men and other creatures which can turn either way.

The Elves seem to be all Good. But what about Feanor and his sons?

The Men are devided, some Good and some Evil. As for the Haradrim being dark skinned. They came from the lands that Sauron held sway over. These were to the South. I doubt that many light-skined people would live there as they would probably end up looking like lobsters from Sun-burn.

The Dwarves seem to bounce from good to bad about every third day. More often if they stub their toes.

Ents and Huorns seem to have the choice of which path to follow also.

So with the exception of the Orcs, the twisted creatures of Morgoth All others have good and bad. So where does the racism show?

[Kris Rhodes]

In the orcs, we have sentient beings, fully capable as demonstrated in the books of forethought, emotion, loyalty, and a full socio-political life and existence.

In other words, they are basically human. They are given a basically human voice when we hear them speak. They are capable of all the things we normally associate with basic humanity. If you prefer the word "sentient" to "human" that is fine.

But despite all this, there is no question that these orcs are completely worthless as living beings - the best you can do with them is kill them. Nothing they can do can be considered good - it is all bad through and through.

It is precisely this notion - that there can be a people, a real, sentient (basically human) people, who are nevertheless absolutely irrevocably worthless and morally irredeemable, and who are definitely *them* and not *us*, that is the basic racist undercurrent in Tolkien's works.

Someone else put it this way: while it is true that many of those of the "good" species have faults and exhibit evil actions, this is considered abnormal, something to be fixed. Meanwhile, as regards the orcs, their evil actions are considered to be the norm, and the best thing to do with them is to kill them, or possibly enslave them. No orc has subtle "good" traits to parallel the "evil" traits of some elves, men, dwarves or hobbits. It is simply inconcievable in fact - the orcs are by definition thoroughly evil through and through.

It is the lack of parallel - the fact that no orc can possibly have any saving grace - that lends a subtle racist undertone to the work as a whole.

Again, however, I want to be clear on this - I do not think it would be fair to call Tolkien a "racist." I think he worked under some tribalistic assumptions, but they were unexamined and unconscious, and it would be innappropriate to make any moral judgement on him because of them. The society in which he was raised and in which he lived and wrote may be criticized, but it would not be fair to direct the full brunt of that criticism on one man alone.

-Kris

[Gothmog]

The point of the Orcs is that they were Deliberately Twisted and specialy bred by Morgoth. This is not a slight change caused by seperation from the rest of their kind. The fact that they had the ability to think and speak does not change this. The Dragons of Middle earth could also speak and reason, but only thing that could be done with them was to kill them.

Any type of creature or people that was only swayed by Morgoth or Sauron was possible of redemption. However, this was not the case with the Orcs as Morgoth had in some way changed them from whatever they might have been into creatures of pure malice. Morgoths Malice.

[Tyaronumen]

I do not believe that Tolkien was a racist, but that is based upon scant evidence... however, it cannot be argued that there are certainly deep racial overtones in the conflict between the Dunedain of Gondor and the men of Rhovannion (because the Dunedain feared to mingle their blood with that of "lesser" men)... and I certainly did notice that the only non-white humans in the book were in the service of Mordor.

As long as no kids read the LotR series and comes to believe that all of the "men of Harad" (ie. black folks :D) are in the service of evil, I'm okay with it. :D

[HLGStrider]

Perhaps, in this case, the LotR is a bit like Lothlorien, whatever danger you take in is the danger you find. You can drown yourself in it like a hobbit in a river, but the river isn't to blame.
To quote the ever eloquent Samwise.
There are few things as beautiful as this story of redemption and heroism. After all, weren't Gollum and Frodo of the same race? Weren't Saruman and Gandalf from the same background? Bad and good isn't measured by skin color or up bringing in Tolkien. It is measured by bad and good.

[Walter]

Welcome to this forum, Kris Rhodes & HLGStrider :)

Kris Rhodes: I do get Your point, but I should like to think that writing a book about an ancient war - basically between "Good" and "Bad", taking place in ancient times and amongst ancient races and avoiding everything that might be considered "racism" or - how You prefer to call it "tribalism" would be a rather difficult task if not to say an impossible one. And the result IMHO would be pretty boring.

[SirNothingman]

Hello, I am new a member to this forum and glad to see such active discussion about Tolkien's works. Racism is an interesting topic to tackle. I read LOTR(my first time) at age 13 and racism never occured to me, now being 31 and having read into Tolkiens life and works I can only say that He was not a racist but a 'realist' about human nature. Having served in WWI and lived through WWII( the personification of evil in the 20th century), the conflicts of races in Middle earth are no different than those of real life. Not racism but a deep understanding that cultures, societies, ideals can disagree(be different) but still co-exist, respect one another and live in peace or be driven apart and become extinct.

The writer of that article has not read LOTR at face value but has magnified small things to suit his need to shock others, if the author really cared about what they were writing they would do research into not only Tolkien's life but the history behind Elves and Dwarves, Orcs as a manifistation of evil, creation story of middle earth and the first 1000 years.

Ignorance breeds fanatics...

Sir Nothingman

[Lantarion]

A triple-welcoming:
Welcome, Kris!
Welcome, SirNuffink!
Welcome, HLGS!
:)

I'm glad the article I posted has envoked some more realistic and anti-racist ideas. That was the point.
In any fictional story there HAS to be the Good side and the Bad side, unless it is a poem or a short story, or such. In the LotR Tolkien simply creates a lothesome, evil, corpulent and bloodhungry race which one cannot feel anything towards but hatred or discontent. This, I think, is the definition of the "bad side". On the other hand, if the Good people are given darker sides, which even better sides make up for, what does Tolkien give the Orcs? They use layman's terms, simple, ignorant and foul-sounding speech, and they curse and swear frequently. They have disgusting habits: eating raw meat, senslessly hacking both inanimate plants as well as their enemies the "Whiteskins", and having no respect or acknowledgement for other creatures, even of their own brethren; among other things.
For these they are given to "compensating values", as said in the article, and that can be both good and bad. It is good because the reader gets the impression of an utterly evil and foul depiction of the Orcs; and bad because it lays the burden of evilness on the "lesser" race of Orcs.

[SirNothingman]

I am under the impression that Sauron made orcs for his own purpose...first fearing light and then creating the Uruk-hai for more efficient use. The point is that evil can create for its own purpose; orcs where not at the creation of 'middle-earth' and neither was Sauron for that much but Sauron's makers was Melkor.

The fact is the word racism is over used and not understood...

I hope all have a good movie preview

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by SirNothingman
I am under the impression that Sauron made orcs for his own purpose...first fearing light and then creating the Uruk-hai for more efficient use. The point is that evil can create for its own purpose; orcs where not at the creation of 'middle-earth' and neither was Sauron for that much but Sauron's makers was Melkor.

The fact is the word racism is over used and not understood...

I hope all have a good movie preview

Welcome to the forum, Sir N! Actually, if you haven't read the Silmarillion, you might wish to... it is an excellent read! And it reveals that it was Morgoth who corrupted the orcs, and that Sauron was created by Morgoth's creator -- not by Morgoth himself...

Peace!

[Gothmog]

SirNothingman,

You make very good and valid points on this thread with which I agree.

On the subjects of Orcs and Sauron. Sauron did not create the Orcs it was Melkor who caused them to be by twisting some (possibly of the Elves) to form a new race of his design. Sauron him self was a Maia (Ainu) the direct creation of Eru Iluvatar and then corrupted by Melkor.

Sauron did I believe breed certain forms of Orc from those made by Melkor.

[Moonbeams]

On the topic of racism:
I always thought that LotR is a book that teaches you quiet the opposite of racism, to value everybody not on their looks, but that which is inside them. It teaches you that it doesn't matter which race one comes from, but whether one is a good person, or a bad person. It even teaches you that it is good to forgive a person for his/her actions, if one was not fully responsible for those actions.
Elves had a long friendship with humans, as you see in Hobbit, when they came to aid the lake men... the frendship of elves and humans, humans and dwarves... well, it seems that everyone was getting along with each other just fine, except for the occasional jelausy because of treasure or immortality... Even in the example of Gimly and Legolas you see that races that had grudges in the past can become friends again.
Now, when you grow up with a book in which many different races, such that don't exist on this planet (anymore!) get along, what does that teach you? That such a little thing like color/religion/whatever is not a reason to thing less of someone.
And when it comes to juding pepole, there are so many examples in LotR that teach you not to be harsh when judging others, or not to be slow to forgive them. Take a look at Golum. A foul creature, don't you think? Killed his cousin over a little piece of gold. Traitor, killer, what good can be said about him? Yet, when you understand his actios, when you see him for the lonely, pittiful creature that he is, can you realy hate him? can you realy resent him?
Or Boromir, who almost killed Frodo over the ring? And who, to me, seems so self-centered, so too full of pride... How can you not forgive him a lot of his actions, when you know he would have done anything to protect the people of his city?
There are so many other examples that teach you that is good to forgive, and that you can't judge people before you realy know them. Once you know them, you always find some good in them.
There is no part in LotR that even implys that being a racist is good, there is not a paragraph in the book that is racistic.
When it comes to overall hatered for orcs, it is because they are evil. If you wold like a christian allegoy, it is because orc are the ips of the devil. I don't see anyone calling for love of the Devil or his imps, no, quite the contrary, if you love the Devil, well... you are the warrior of Antichrist, then. We can see that orcs can talk, and have some inteligence, but they are full of evil. You can't deny that, because I can't remember any part of the book that Toliken said they are not. And we don't have a living orc to ask. If they are full of EVIL, they are enemies of GOOD and that has noting to do with racism.

[Walter]

Moonbeams: You have made some very good points there and "Welcome to this humble forum" :)

SirNothingMan: Welcome, again, and please don't get scared by some of our members who sometimes like to show off their excellent knowledge - be it about Tolkiens works or in other areas - they are really good guys anyway ;)

[SirNothingman]

Thank you for the welcoming many times, I do appreciate it and frankly, I don't mind the others setting it straight. I have read The Lord of the Rings 6-7 times and recently have delved back into other works by Tolkien to get all caught up on the history of Middle earth. I look forward to further research into this area...Tolkien is an amazing man that deserves much greater honour but on some level I am glad that He has been 'shoved' to be enjoyed by those who take the time to find Him.

Thanks for the warmth again,

[Orin]

Pardon me for being political, but it seems there are a certain ilk (l*****l media) who take great delight in finding evil where none exsists, and turning said found evil into a tool for further divisiveness in the very devided society they claim to be wanting to unite. Racism in Tolkien! Hogwash and tripe on toast. It's a freakin' story of utter good versus utter evil written in the thirties by a middle-class English professor, who, no doubt was shaped by the attitudes of his time.

Even so, the only racism in Tolkien is the racism planted there by those sowers of division, class warfare, and political correct clap trap who delight in keeping the masses in a perpetual hunt against bogeymen (sorry bogeypeople, must be PC:rolleyes: ). ?Why do they do this? Without these so called problems, such as racism in Tolkien and Mark Twain, and the wealthy wanting to keep their money, they would not be able to save society from itself.

I will climb down off my soap box after one last comment. Racism in Tolkien is just about as believable as the grub sweat coming from those who said Harry Potter is about a meth lab. I'm glad the folk on this forum are intelligent enough to see for themselves and think accordingly.

Mel Gibson should have portrayed Aragorn.

Beavis and Butthead as Merry and Pippin would have been a trip, as well.

:D

[Tar-Steve]

I'm smart enough to ask a question when I'm confused: What's a meth lab?

Mel Gibson? Please ... Oh please ... No.

[HLGStrider]

Quote from two towers:
(When Faramir is battling the Southrens and one of them has just fallen, dead, within inches of Sam.).
It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not rather have stayed their in peace...

I don't think a racist would have added this passage about a dark skinned man. It wouldn't have even have come to his mind.

[Farmer Giles]

I think that the idea of racism was furthest from Tolkiens mind in fact I would have to suggest that the Work was a cry out for the union of biodiversity, and the working for a utopian society (contry to what was going on at the time). A view that is something that Tolkien would wish us all to hold. :confused:

[Lord Snotty]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! uh, i mean that is just some dumb guy wanting fame by making articles about ****!

[Orin]

A meth lab is a laboratory where they make methamphetemines. Speed.

[Snaga]

This is a question that is getting knocked around in some of the 'how much do you hate Peter Jackson' threads - but there is more than enough meat for this to stand up on its own.

As I understand it the central argument would be that all the black-skinned characters in LoTR are on the side of Mordor, and therefore LoTR is racist.

I have stated this carefully because there is a stronger argument that says that the use of black to symbolise evil is racist. Someone may suggest this but I would disagree. There is no racial connotation in the use of black to symbolise evil. Therefore the black clothing, insignia, armour etc of the forces of Mordor do not suggest a racial angle.

On the other hand what about the men of Far Harad who are explicitly stated as black?

First thing to state is that the ethnicity of these men is a function of geography. These men are black because they live in the far south in hot climate not because they are evil. Mordor has many races in thrall, and not all are black. Secondly there is a sense when Sam witnesses Faramir's ambush of the southrons that perhaps they are not evil but merely misguided and enslaved. And in fact Umbar is a Numenorean port in the 2nd Age and the men of Harad at that time owed allegiance to the Numenor, and not to Sauron.

But it has to be said that the question of race and racial purity runs through LoTR as a central theme. The purity of Numenorean blood is frequently held as a key determinant of the nobility of an individual. According to modern standards this is dangerous moral ground, but even in Tolkien's day the Aryan fantasies of the Third Reich ought to have served as some warning as to how this could be interpreted. I think this is real case that should be answered.

I think it is possible to read the romance between Faramir and Eowyn as evidence that Tolkien has no sinister intent. In this episode Eowyn challenges Faramir to acknowledge that in Gondor they will not like that he marries a 'wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?', and he is impressively indifferent. Given this, the talk of 'lesser races' and 'mingling of blood' can be read as merely referring to Elvish ancestry of the Numenoreans - i.e. Numenoreans are 'superior' to other races of men, black and white.

Tolkien is a product of his time, and is not sensitive to the implications of his handling of race, but I can't subscribe to the view that LotR is racist. Views???

[curious_nomad]

LoTR does portray racism, though not in the typical Nazi connotation. Hence, we have the great relationship between elves and dwarves. However, as for real world races, ummm....

From the dawn of time the color black has been associated with darkness/evil. It's the color of night when spooky things come and get you. However, it's not the only evil color. Red is almost universally found in demons and devils since it's the color of flame. If you wish to read this as all mythological references to evil demons and shadows as racial slurs against Africans and American Indians I believe you're insane.

And before you jump on my back, I beg you. Look at the reverse. White equals good. White equals clean and pure more closely however, need I remind you that both World Wars were caused by White. Every single major war in the world involved Caucasians somewhere. So, obviously Whites are not as clean and pure as the color. Therefore, one can logically argue there is no relationship between a hue, the race(s) it represents and there values and actions.

Now that I've said that, if you apply that principle to any work of fantasy you will see that it is truly fantasy and has little or no connection to the real world.

(For those of you who still don't believe me...
Saruman the White was evil.)

[Gloer]

Now if the Harad heard (from Sauron's servants) of a far away rich land of weak and pale people that hold themselves kings of men - then they would smile and say:

" Who are these arrogant people? Let's take our arms and elephants and run them down! Kill their men and sell their families to slavery! Then we can live happily in their beautiful green land and make it prosper. It is within the reach of our grasp! Our sons shall be kings of all men!"

And of they go on their Elephants. And I don't condemn them.
They probably had their reasons for the war and Sauron had his.

My country fought side by side with Hitler against the Soviets. Though it happened the same time it had different reasons and different aims, and also a different result. Tolkiens home land was forced to declare war on us, but USA never did that after 7.12.1941.

So I would say Harad are not at all described as bad or evil. They are only fighting on the side of the enemy. There is no passage that says the Harad did anything that could be pinpointed as evil.

Besides there is a passage where Harad are clearly descibed in a humane way and that is a clear distinction from for example how orcs have no integrity what so ever.

[Foe-Hammer]

Would the LOTR be as good a novel if Tolkien had tried to write it from a black person's view? Would "roots" be as good if Haley tried to write it from a whites POV?

It isn't racism. It is just natural for people to write from their experiences. It's only the PC crowd that wants to cloud issues. There is REAL live racism out there, and to spend time worrying if this book is racist, jus allows it to remain in the shadows where it thrives.

[Ancalagon]

You may wish to view this thread which has looked at this topic in some depth........

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1049

NOTE TO ALL MEMBERS

IT may be prudent to look through the various pages (bottom right of pages) of each section of the forum in advance of starting new threads, many of the questions asked may already be posted in earlier threads.

[proudfoot]

I think there probably is some unconscious racism in Tolkien. How good or how bad you are is almost geographical. North and west are generally Good. East and South (Asians, Africans?) are in the bad camp - although probably misled.

This is probably not overt racism, it more reflects the comfortable Eurocentric view held by many people at the time. You can still watch old films where "evil" asians or africans "rebel" against kindly British rule, and are, of course, foiled. Native Americans were often the "baddies" in films just for defending their lands against white invaders.

The emphasis on "pure" blood and bloodlines is rather sinister - but it does reflect the concerns of people in the real northern epic sagas. Bloodlines were important, because the kings claimed descent from the Gods - and that's what made them superior and gave them the right to rule the peasants. Tolkien's societies are very deferential. Whoever cooks the meals and does the cleaning in Rivendell is never mentioned!

As for the Numenoreans, they did have southern connections, and there are heavy hints in the books that Numenorean culture led on to that of the Egyptians (huge monuments for the dead etc) Gondor is also similar to Gondar in Ethiopia. Although Aragorn and the Gondorfolk SEEM to be white.

[Ciryaher]

Also note that the Numenoreans were not the 'blond-haired, blue-eyed' creatures Nazism promoted. They were primarily dark-haired and grey-eyed...so that basically throws out the Tolkien-Nazi theory.

[ReadWryt]

I just don't get how a mythology that is set in pre-historic Europe can be presumed to be "racist" because the black colored non-human creatures in it are evil. I suppose the argument could be made that Tolkien was a Specieist as well because aside from a few horses and a couple of eagles all the creatures in the story are pretty much bad guys. (I don't count plants because I know that Tolkien loved trees.)

I think that the story has a dearth of "black" people primarily because it contains about as many as were living in Europe in the days before the Moors arrived. besides, if I see one more person imply that living in south Africa for the first four years of your life probably germinated the seeds of Racism in Tolkien I'll throw up. What a rediculous concept to assume.

The only reference I can find pertaining to this subject is a brief and reletively obscure reference in a letter to Christopher who complained shortly after ariving at an air base in South Africa about the treatment of blacks in April of 1944...Letter number 61 in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

"As for what you say or hint of `local' conditions: I knew of them. I don't think they have much changed (even for the worse). I used to hear them discussed by my mother; and have ever since taken a special interest in that part of the world. The treatment of colour nearly allways horrifies anyone going out from Brittain, & not only in South Africa."

[theGrenadier]

This seems to be an extension of a very old arguement.
Does art imitate life or is it the contrary? Did Tolkein simply impart his sub-concience into the work or did he choose to show his world this way?

I think it was more by accident that his work would appear racist. Such a diverse world, even more than our own, is bound to have conflict between people of different race. And some folks zero in on this and attach the label 'racist'. And that's an unfair assumption.

As a teacher of WW2 history, I have to clarify an earlier statement. Hitler's was a racist pogrom not a nationalist one. He didn't push German hegemony as much as Racial superiority of the Aryans, which included Scandinavians, the people of the British isles and a large part of France and the Low Countires, i.e. Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg, not to mention Denmark. His tool was the German state and he sought to unite all the Aryan peoples under the Swastika at the expenxe of the 'lesser races'.

You can not define Nazism simply as racism nor national boundaries. You can be a racist and not a Nazi, but not the opposite. But, a correlation of Evil between Hitler's purpose and Sauron's is pretty evident. Each fought to subjugate a world to his own bidding through force.

[The Sindar]

Dammit people.... You know what your problems are? (As in the people who think that it symbolizes racism.) Your problems are that you feel that you MUST analyse everything and that everything has to have an inner meaning, or that the author REALLY meant to mean something else, allegory.

This isn't the way in LoTR. Its a FANTASY novel!! You don't need to analyse it, you've been paying attention in english back in high school too much. Its supposed to be what it is, its not a book like Animal Farm where it is about Communism. It has nothing of racism in it.

Go out and read some other fantasy novels, they're all like this. Orcs are considered evil because of their evil actions, not because of their skin color! They used to be elves for christ's sake.

I hate analysers when its totally unneeded.

[Thariel]

Let's not forget the men known as Easterlings, Wainriders and Balchoth from the lands of Khand and Rhûn. They were depicted as Asians, in the tradition of Mongols or Huns. I myself am part Aisan but I do not find Tolkien's works as racist. They were revealed to be warlike like the Mongols so it suited the story's era. They weren't a purely evil (like the "Men of Harad") people, but a tribal race. Much like the wild Dunlendings of Dunland who were allied with Sauron and who were "white".

[JeffF.]

...with the description of the half-orcs. Yellow skinned, sallow skinned, squint eyed are obvious descriptions of a racial group. Still as a member of that racial group I place LOTR as my all time favorite book and story. The power and beauty of the story, the enrichment for having read it over and over far outweigh any racial bias, which in the context of the time and place it was written was a rather common attitude. I feel no offense but do secretly desire that he had chosen another description.

[Snaga]

JeffF I know exactly what you mean. Its not that in LotR there is a kind of overt racism that smacks you in face. Anyone who suggests that LotR is sinister or dangerous is being silly. But the book is over 50 years old, and the world JRRT created older yet. It is of little surprise if we can find things within that we would be more careful about if we were writing something today. If I were sitting down to write a great tale depicting the fight of good and evil, I'd be making sure that it wasn't going to be seen as racist. I don't think JRRT did this, because in his day, there wasn't that sort of scrutiny. Even so I think it survives the test, unlike for example children's author Enid Blyton who depiction of black characters was appalling.

I am also somewhat uneasy about the attitude of some of the posts in this thread. You (The Sindar, Orin in particular) seem to feel that there is something wrong in asking the question, that the question of racism is just a pain in the butt. But if you are subjected to prejudice yourself it is very personal and very real, and I for one would want to know if my favourite author, favourite novel was causing offense and why. I am not so arrogant as to think only my own perspective is right or valid. It is good to subject great literature to this kind of test - the great literature will pass the test, its reputation enhanced.

[Haven]

Honestly, it's Fantasy. There's a system in it. It's simple. People like simple things. There's enough complication with bloodlines, and who is descended from who...I think what would be racist, is if people look at the book, and parallel it to real life, thinking that there is a "system" in life. I understand the arguement however, and could understand how someone would not like something like the fact that all elves and beautiful or something. I understand, but I kind of think sometimes you just gotta read it, and take it for what it is. There are SO many works of literature that the same thing could be said about...

[Eonwe]

I'm suprised no-one has brought up the following (as far as I can see? maybe I missed it)

Tolkien said the story in some ways was set in Europe and meant to be a mythology. Europe was invaded many times by various people including celebrated writings (see Bulfinch's Mythology) about the battles of Charlemange against the moors (Persian empire). In Europe of that age, a great threat of domination was posed by Persia, Mongols, etc. So wouldn't a writer writing a mythos of this type set in Europe talk about dark people and people with different eyes from other places?

[ReadWryt]

JeffF.,

Wait...
Still as a member of that racial group I place LOTR as my all time favorite book and story.

Um, so you are saying that you are a decendant of an ancient race of Elves who were entrapped in Morgoth's dungeon and tortured and manipulated into the creatures known as Orcs? Um, hello? Did it ever cross your mind that they might be yellow and sallow skinned because they had not, as a race, been in the sun in decades??

You people need to stop reading into this. I know that the trend in the past couple decades has been to "Victimize" yourselves by trying to point to anything that might possibly be construed as making comment about your Size, Ethnicity, Sex, Sexual Preference, Age, Eye Color, Food Choices, Right or Left handedness, Preference for Side of Bed you Sleep on or whatever you think you have been oppressed for but if you are looking for racism in The Lord of the Rings you are barking up the wrong tree. For starters, it being a Pre-Historic Mythology, it is written as a Ficticious HISTORY, and the History of Europe before recorded time is that (according to the archeologists) of a bunch of people who were more Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon then anything else, so is it surprising that it's full of characters that reflect that?

I suppose the NEXT thing we will have to suffer is a bunch of Dwarves and Midgets wandering onto the Forum complaining about what a jerk Tolkien was for portraying "little people" so poorly in his stories...Thank GAWD there are no people of Plant Ethnicity because the whole Treebeard thing could get out of hand...

[Orin]

What ye seek, ye shall find, whether it be there or not. Sure TLoTR is rife with racism, pagan ideology, christian ideology, and even Japanese cooking techniques. If you look for it, you can construe the book to have anything in it. The old self fulfilling prophecy at work.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
Also note that the Numenoreans were not the 'blond-haired, blue-eyed' creatures Nazism promoted. They were primarily dark-haired and grey-eyed...so that basically throws out the Tolkien-Nazi theory.

Good point Ciryaher. I remember reading a letter from JRRT (sorry, i can't document it right now) that said something to the effect that he always pictured the Numenoreans as resembling Egyptians. Does anyone else recall seeing this quote? Do I even have it right?

(they're right when they say that memory is the first thing to go)

[ReadWryt]

Egyptians?? *Gasp* See!!? SEE?? That PROVES IT! He imagined the Numenoreans looking like the original ARYANS! He IS racist!! Bahahahahaha! Just kidding...

I've scoured The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien for a reference to the appearence of the Numenoreans and found nothing. Mayhaps it is a side note in "The Lost Road", I do not know. *Shrug*

[Nimrodel]

First of all, I want to congratulate everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Racism in such an inflammatory subject and it is refreshing to see it discussed with intelligent, well-thoughtout arguments rather then rhetoric and below-the-belt comments.

I can't think of anything to add that hasn't been brought up re racism and LoTR so I'll go on a bit of a tangent.

I am so glad that Tolkien wrote his books in the days before political correctness grabbed us by the throats and put the strangle-hold on. I have no tolerance for other people's intolerance, but I can't see that the PC movement has in anyway removed opression from any group of people. It sickens me when I read modern fiction and see these paragraphs and phrases which seem to be there for the sole purpose of placating anyone who might possibly get offended. An example might be an unnecessarily long-winded explanation of why character dislikes someone who is of another race with emphasis on the fact that it isn't racially motivated. It drives me nuts but worse, it weakens the narrative and interrupts the flow of the story. It also hinders the creative process. Thankfully, Tolkien could describe for us in rich detail the creatures of his wondrous imagination without an editor or critic breathing down his neck about the political acceptability of his words.

Getting back to this particular thread, I have to say something in defence of JeffF. I think, ReadWryt, that you were unnecessarily harsh in your response for two reasons.

First of all, things that live in the dark all the time tend to be very pale (no need for pigmentation) and have large, round eyes, (the better to see when there is little light) so I can see why JeffF would question the need for Orcs to be "swart and slanty-eyed". Heck, even we humans get paler when not in the sun as much as my own winter pallor will attest to.

Second, when you have been on the receiving end of discrimination based on how you look, it is hard not to be sensitive to how characters in books are described, especially ones which are evil or negative in any way. I don't claim to know how it feels to be a visual minority although I have been called a "White Savage" by some Cree (North American Native) kids while growing up. (I personally did nothing to offend, there was a lot of tension in my school at that time.) However, I have a long-time friend who has confided to me that white men look at her, a well-groomed young woman and ask her what her price is because they assume that if she is Native, she must be for sale. I was shocked, I had no idea, and the point I'm making is that one doesn't know what anyone has had to deal with in life so one cannot be quick to judge someone else's reaction to what they read. If JeffF is uncomfortable with the description of Orcs, it is his right to feel that way.

If I sound like I'm contradicting myself, saying I'm glad Tolkien was unbound by the fetters of political correctness on one hand they saying JeffF is right to be uncomfortable, I'm not. It was Tolkien's right to make his Orcs the way he wanted and our right to like it or not.

Cheers and thanks for the lively discussion!!:)

[JeffF.]

...my comment was quoted out of context by ReadWyrt. As a member of the racial group that JRR used as a description for the half orcs I do wish that he'd chosen a fantasy description not attributable to any group but I recognize the time and place JRR was in. No I don't believe he was racist, he was merely a product of less sensitive times and of a particular culture. LOTR is bsed on northern european mythology and the 'bad guys' have characteristics of non-europeans. I am also fully aware that the mythology of other cultures/racial groups does the same thing. Many Asian mythological descriptions of ghosts could be offensive to northern europeans as could descriptions of American Indian ghosts/antagonists. I think Readwyrt also misread the level of my concern. I thought I made clear it wasn't a big thing but it was a concern. LOTR is still my favorite book and will probably always will be.

[ReadWryt]

I took nothing out of context. You claimed that you were of the race you described and presumed that everyone would leap to the same conclusion that you did, that he had Asians in mind when describing these Orcs. I defy you to post evidence that this is so...

[JeffF.]

Yellow skinned, sallow skinned, slant eyed are derogatory terms used to describe Asians.

Why is my response making you so angy? I'm not angry about this. I'm simply stating my view. I challenge you to show that these descriptions are NOT of Asians.

My original post was merely a concern and my view, you are responding as if I'm looking to sue someone or lead a boycott.

I said the book was the best I've ever read. I said I wish the descriptions of the half-orcs were different. I said I don't think JRRT was a rascist.

There is no reason for you to be up in arms

[Snaga]

You people need to stop reading into this. I know that the trend in the past couple decades has been to "Victimize" yourselves by trying to point to anything that might possibly be construed as making comment about your Size, Ethnicity, Sex, Sexual Preference, Age, Eye Color, Food Choices, Right or Left handedness, Preference for Side of Bed you Sleep on or whatever you think you have been oppressed for but if you are looking for racism in The Lord of the Rings you are barking up the wrong tree.

ReadWryt don't you think it is just a little bit beneath you to trivialise the issue of racism like this? You sound very defensive. Racial minorities, when complaining about stereotyping are not 'victimising' themselves! It happens to be real and disgraceful phenomenon, and the attitudes behind it, if unchallenged, lead to far worse. For sure the PC movement went way overboard at times - but it changed the rules and made racist stereotyping socially unacceptable (and other -isms). If you don't think that's a good thing, step up and say why!

We all love Tolkien. But we know it pre-dates all that. I don't see the difficulty in acknowledging that it is not 100% PC in places. If you can say: I recognise that, but its still a wonderful book and this is why I love it, then all the things within it that have a universal appeal can come to the fore. If we, the Tolkien devotees sound as though we have a problem with the issue of race, people will assume it comes from the book. There are enough things in the book to point to that are counter-examples, that show there is not racist ideology in there, so we don't need to act defensive.:)

I for one do not feel that because LotR is based on northern european mythology, you need to be of northern european origin to appreciate it. So lets show just a bit more concern for what lies behind the question, please.

[Anamatar IV]

think about it. the only black people are the bad guys (orcs easterlings...) and all the good people have pale faces.

[BelDain]

yeah, didn't you know? JRRT hated africans, asians and native americans.

[Beorn]

Somehow I doubt that as I know no evidence for that. If it's sarcasm, it's certainly the wrong spot for it...

When you think of something that's bad, a bad idea, a bad concept, it's usually colored dark. Scary stories take place at night when it's dark. A dark soul means a person is bad.

I don't remember the orcs being described as black but dark skinned. The orcs did lived in darkness, so dark skin was an adaption for them.

Whatever your view, more comments such as those by BelDain will not be tolerated without extreme amounts of evidence.

I know this has been discussed before somewhere....

[ReadWryt]

Gee, and I just thought that while creating a mythology for England the guy took the basic people's that had originally inhabited western Europe (The Angles, Norse and such) and then created races that didn't really exist and made them different where necessary. So do you suppose when Tolkien wrote that very personal letter to his son Christopher while the lad was stationed in South Africa in WWII he was being disingenuous about his feeling that it was awful the way that blacks were treated there and elsewhere?

[Rangerdave]

The good professor was by no means a racist, but he was a product of his generation. One of the characteristics of the Victorian and Georgian eras was the sense that there were British subjects and then there was the rest of the world.

If you understand the concept of "Wogland begins at Dover", then you know what I mean.

RD

[LadyGaladriel]

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT LOTR IS RACIST . IS NOTHING SACRED. ITS A FANTASTIC PIECE OF LITRITURE AND YOU ARE TRYING TO UNDERMIME IT AS RACIST?! HOW PATHETIC THAT EVEN BOOKS ARE NOW BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT . GOSH .

I share my veiw with Beorn about the Black thing .


I have a stong opion in Racism

[aragil]

I think one of the central themes of (at least) the Fellowship of the Ring is how the various races (especially Gimli representing the Dwarves and Legolas the Elves) put aside their cultural differences to help eachother. Gimli grows to appreciate the ideals of the Elves, Aragorn is fostered by the Elves, and Bree is celebrated for being an inter-racial community, succesfully blending the best of both Hobbits and Men.
I do not think the Haradrim themselves are portrayed as evil- I think that they are portrayed as being under the influence of evil. I think a particularly poignant moment in TTT is during the ambush by Faramir and company on the Haradrim. Sam witnesses a lone Southron crash through the underbrush and expire, and then wonders about what various circumstances brought the man away from his home, only to meet his death there in Ithilien. IMO the passage is sympathetic towards the man from Harad, and Sam's thoughts display an underlying kinship which transcends race and color. This passage to me suggests that Tolkien viewed the Haradrim as a branch of men unfortunately led by individuals who were in league with evil incarnate. I certainly don't see this as racist standpoint, and as RW said Tolkien was specifically attempting to design a pre-history of Europe, in which case invading forces would necessarily come from East and South.

[Beorn]

I found the previous thread: LOTR and Races (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1049)

Read it.

[LadyGaladriel]

I dont think that Tolkien was offensive in the form of Racism at all . If LOTR is racsit than all Fairy tales ect must be too. Utterly ridulcoulous.
whoever said about this trend of Victimizing then I agree 110%.

I pride myself that I dont Nit pick everything and say that everyone and everything that has a different way of looking at things is racist .


I dont agree with Racism at all But I think that people are now looking at it as some kind of excuse in modern society

[Turgon]

I've read many things now, on the subject of racism in LotR, and I think the arguement goes a little deeper than mere skin colouration. When certain 'critics' and 'journalists' (I use the terms loosely) mention LotR's appeal to the far right I'm always mindful of the concept of Pure-blood. The Pure-blood of the Dúnedain specifically. In many ways it is similar to the Aryan mythos of Atlantis as invented by the National Socialist myth-makers in the 30's. (in fact I tried to bring this subject up in a thread on the Kinstrife in Gondor, but to no avail) The nobility of Gondor, during the period just preceding the Kinstrife place much emphasis on the concept of pure-blood, enough to begin a civil war over it - ironically they were concerned about the mingling of Númenorean blood with that of the blonde Northman. But the parallel is there between Atalantë and the Aryan Atlantis, and the less scrupulous members of the Journalistic Set are free to make them as they will - and a book like LotR will always be a target. Of course following the course of this period of Gondor's history will bring forth some interesting ironies, if one looks into the latter history of the Renegade Dúnedain, (The Corsairs) although whether Tolkien wrote them intentionally or not I'm not sure.

Let me state here that I in no way agree with this train of thought and merely bring it up for the purpose of discussion. As RW has said, anybody who has read Tolkien's letters will have a truer picture of Tolkien the man. Conservative yes, but racist never, and most definitely not an 'Aryan'. (see letter No 30) In fact the only real bigotry I can remember on Tolkien's part was his hatred of French food (something that runs deep in the English psyche...;) )

[Beorn]

The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, No 30:
30 To Rütten & Loening Verlag
[One of the 'two drafts' mentioned by Tolkien in the previous letter. This is the only one preserved in the Allen & Unwin files, and it seems therefore very probable that the English publishers sent the other one to Germany. It is clear that in that letter Tolkien refused to make any declaration of 'arisch' origin.]

25 July 1938 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter. .... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Flindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject - which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this son are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its suitability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.1

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and remain yours faithfully

J. R. R. Tolkien.

[Darth Saruman]

Originally posted by LadyGaladriel
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT LOTR IS RACIST . IS NOTHING SACRED. Well, not much is sacred and I hate to break it to you, but neither is Lord of the Rings. Although it's a fine piece of literature.

[Turgon]

Ah Beorn has kindly posted the letter I mentioned - should have done it myself really - but I think it says a lot about Tolkien. Anti-semitism was rife in 1930's Europe (not just in Germany) and here we see Tolkien making a stand against it.

[BelDain]

Originally posted by Beorn
Somehow I doubt that as I know no evidence for that. If it's sarcasm, it's certainly the wrong spot for it...

Whatever your view, more comments such as those by BelDain will not be tolerated without extreme amounts of evidence.

Yes, sheesh, of course it's sarcasm. and I'm asian myself. you probably assumed I was some white guy being a jerk huh?

[LadyGaladriel]

Originally posted by Darth Saruman
Well, not much is sacred and I hate to break it to you, but neither is Lord of the Rings. Although it's a fine piece of literature.




It should be sacred.


I was some white guy being a jerk huh?



A white Jerk eh? why not a Hispanic Jerk or a Chinese Jerk .

[pohuist]

Originally posted by alphack
think about it. the only black people are the bad guys (orcs easterlings...) and all the good people have pale faces.

Yeah, you forgot to mention its sexist too. All the main characters are male and one of the only 3 female characters gets dumped by Aragorn:rolleyes:

[Maeglin]

well the story is supposed to take place long ago I believe, so do u really think he's going to put a lot of women that get into huge battles in the story? although Eowyn does fight, but still besides that he wouldn't, and when the stories were written you didn't hear about women fighting or being in the army and what not

[ReadWryt]

Here is what the professor wrote in a letter to Christopher who complained shortly after ariving at an air base in South Africa about the treatment of blacks in April of 1944...Letter number 61 in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. "As for what you say or hint of `local' conditions: I knew of them. I don't think they have much changed (even for the worse). I used to hear them discussed by my mother; and have ever since taken a special interest in that part of the world. The treatment of colour nearly allways horrifies anyone going out from Brittain, & not only in South Africa." For those who may not be "hip" to the terminology of England in WWII, "colour" was the politically correct term for what was called "Black" in the states in that period...

[Rúmil]

There are races in Lotr: Elves, men, orcs and so on. That does not mean it is racist. If you brand lotr as racist for having races in it, then any book on world history, geography, sociology etc is also racist. In fact, Tolkien sort of cleverly defuses the notion of there being "superior" races, that can at first reading emerge from the history. In the Sil, it say that in the end, the Elves and even the Valar, being bound to the Earth with all their power and wisdom and glory, will come to envy the fate of Men, who are so often shabby and stupid, but possess that mysterious "seeking elsewhither". As for the orcs, well both Frodo and Gandalf state at least once that they "pity even the servants of the Enemy". The message is, by foul art they were made a race that can only be dealt with an axe and sword, wich it is good to extermine, but that very fact should be a source of everlasting regret. And it is also said, that after the Last Battle, all the ills of the world shall be mended. I take that to mean that the orcs will finally be redeemed. Some Asians complain that the orcs are described as having some characteristics commonly associated with the Asian type, well that is the traditinal way Goblins are depicted in the myths in wich they appear. This is not Tolkien's doing. And, finally, as has so often and justly been quoted, how could a racist man come up with that incredibly poignant story of Gollum/Sméagol?
In fact, for its time, Lotr is astonishingly non-racist and invites to universal tolerance and understanding.

[Lantarion]

The two threads are now merged..

[JeffF.]

It's been awhile since I've commented on this particular subject. First I state again LOTR is my absolute favorite book. I don't think that JRRT was trying to portray racisim but in weaving his brilliant epic he did. One of the things that bothered me about the book is the completely evil nature of certain groups. Orcs, trolls, dragons are by nature and by species/race evil. There are no redeeming individuals or sub-groups of those who are 'good.' These groups are evil not by choice but by the accident of their birth into these groups. This idea, that some groups are inherently bad, is the root of racism. It seems that only the Free People, Elves, Men, Dwarves and Hobbits can truly choose between good and evil. Even within these groups some are more noble than others. The Vanyar are called the noblest of the elves yet they seem to do nothing to earn this distinction except to show unwavering faith in the Valar. The Avari, because of their choice are the least of the elves, slowly diminishing for no reason other than their choice to remain in Middle Earth. The pure blooded Dunedain of the north are longer lived than the Dunedain of Gondor because the latter have mingled with 'lesser' men except for the 'purest' families. Again the distinction of blood lines and their purity are a feature of racism. There is a story telling advantage to having things this way. Evil is less complex. The reader does not have to worry about whether orcs and trolls are bad, we know they are. For the most part only men do we have to worry about whether they serve the dark lord or not.

Unfortunately for me it has been my responsiblity to work (in my last job in the U.S. Army) as the Equal Opportunity Officer for a major command. It was my daily responsibility to deal with racial and gender issues. I saw many examples of people who acted in a racist manner without ever realizing they did it (and on the other hand I saw people for whom everything was a racist issue when in fact they were pursuing their own agendas).

Though this will always be debated and acknowledging that at least part of racism is perception on the part of the agrieved I think the portrayal of racism in LOTR does not take away from the beauty of the story. Orcs and trolls are evil because of their race but they were bred by the Dark Lord to be that, maybe not fair, but just the way things are in Middle Earth. LOTR is a fine epic, in my view the finest epic of courage, love and loyalty and I will always regard it as so.

[aragil]

Jeff F-
In defence of Tolkien, his letter #78 addresses some of what you just wrote:

Urukhai is only a figure of speech. There are no genuine Uruks, that is folk made bad by the intention of their maker; and not many who are so corrupted as to be irredeemable (though I fear it must be admitted that there are human creatures that seem irredeemable short of a special miracle, and that there are probably abnormlly many of such creatures in Deutschland and Nippon - but certainly these unhappy countries have no monopoly: I have met them, or thought so, in England's green and pleasant land).

Urukhai is only a figure of speech- to me this means that Orcs are simply a literary device for showing the men that are bad. I don't think Tolkien intended for his myth to be used in any racist form. People can take the 'race' of Orcs to be indicative of an inferior race, just as they can take the race of the Dunedain to be indicative of a superior race (though letter 211 to Rhona Beare might surprise them- "The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms."). However, either of these readings is quite orthogonal to the point that the author was trying to convey (I think). The 'free peoples' of Middle-earth represent all of the children of Illuvatar. The evil peoples are those who have been perverted/touched by the dark powers. In the literature this condition is inflicted once and then becomes inherited, but I think (and the above letter backs me up) that the condition is symbolic for those who choose their way of life. Finally, I'd like to again bring up the fact that the Fellowship of the Ring is about all of the Free Peoples (e.g. symbolic for all of the races of men) uniting together to resist evil domination. Hobbits and Dwarves are not excluded because they are too short, Elves are not included because they are beautiful. In fact, one of the central (IMO) themes of the book is that the 'little' Hobbits, so often overlooked by the 'mighty', are the ones who in the end bring about the fall of the Dark Lord. The lesson (for me)- no group of people, no matter their appearance, are insignificant. Doesn't seem too racist to me, but perhaps that's just my reading.

[ReadWryt]

Oh Shiva on a shingle! Who knew that "Independence Day" and "Starship Troopers" were Racist Movies because the alien races appeared not to have a choice if they were Evil? In fact I would have to say that at least half of the tales of a Mythological nature or Fairy Tales which deal extensively with races other mankind are all racist as well! How terrible that these non-existent mythological creatures are catching such a bad rap in Tolkien's works, maybe he should have chosen REAL EXISTING races to bash on!

By this same logic one could assume that the Martians in Welles' "War of the Worlds", being inherantly evil, showed that the man was an insensative racist...that is unless you realized that the guy wrote the story in response to the horror of the British Empire having wiped out the entire indiginous race of an island and wanted people who felt safe and secure in London to feel some manner of the fear this poor race felt when a group with superior technology came along and committed genocide upon them...

[Amichi]

I'm not sure I see the 'inherent' racism in LotR, honestly. From what I understand, the orcs were nothing more than an offshoot of elves, twisted and tortured with magic until they knew nothing but pain and slavery and misery and fear. To give a more 'real world' example to this...

Say I am a scientist... an evil scientist... with a genetics lab and the resources to clone / modify a base human product to reflect the traits I want it to reflect. In more common english... I can tweak the genes to give this human any human feature I want it to have. Now remember, I'm evil... say I want this person to be my violent, psychotic soldier. I mix in some personality traits, mess with the pre-child's mind, and come out with my finished product... which, because of me, has homocidal tendencies, genetically speaking. I also gave it acute paranoia and some physical deformities to round out my creature. I do this repeatedly, creating more of these human-things over time... until I have a population of them. I reinforce thier psychosis and natural tendency towards evil with social conditioning, breed them amongst each other... until eventually, most every instance of light emotion is burned out of them as a race.

Would someone be racist if they claimed that overall, my creations were 'evil beings'? Not at all.

The difference between real world racism and the tolkienesque dislike for orcs and the dark breeds is about the same. Orcs are not natural creatures... they were deliberately engineered by Sauron to be -evil- . The free people's hate of them is not racism, but simple common sense.

Now the treatment of the Woses.. that's another story.

[Rasec]

Hey, I think that J. R. R. Tolkien's books seem to be a bit racist. But I do not particularly think that he intended to be racist. Ok, I have also thought about the point "black people x white people". I have thought for some time "Why isn't there any black man or woman in the book?". Then, reading some of the posts I came to a conclusion: John Tolkien was not very familiar with black people. I mean, he is from England, and as far as I know, there is not many black people in there. And Mr. Tolkien himself must have liked white people more than black people, but this does not mean that he did not respect the black race. It is the same as if we think that he is racist about Japanese. "There is no japanese person in the book, so Tolkien hate japaneses" - that is ridiculous. And in addition to all this, Middle-Earth was not Earth. We can simply believe that, in this world, black and japanese people do not exist. This was Tolkien's choice. Why should we condemn him about it? He does not deserve. And I do not think he is racist.

Hope u got it.
See u all,

Cesar Filho.

[aragil]

cesarfilho- While I agree with you that I don't think JRRT was racist, I thought I might point out some things in your posts. First off, although JRRT was English, he was born in South Africa, and retained a sympathy for the treatment of the indigenous peoples there long into his life, as evidenced by one of his letters quoted earlier on this thread. Secondly, Middle-earth is supposed to represent our world in the remote past, so we can assume that ~Africans and ~Asians did exist in that world. The Africans at least are hinted at with the Haradrim (who not only come from the South but also have a darker skin color), and I have seen theories (though I don't agree with them) that the Variags of Khand were some sort of Asiatic people.

Incidentally, this morning I read one of the letters which directly addressed using an entire race (e.g. the Orcs) to represent an evil people. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact words (and I don't want to post where I may mis-represent), but I hope to be able to quote from that letter soon.

[ReadWryt]

I have thought for some time "Why isn't there any black man or woman in the book?". Then, reading some of the posts I came to a conclusion: John Tolkien was not very familiar with black people. I mean, he is from England, and as far as I know, there is not many black people in there. And Mr. Tolkien himself must have liked white people more than black people, but this does not mean that he did not respect the black race.

Well, I'm officially mortified now...Ok, can you show me evidence that Tolkien liked White people more then Black? Look, it's like this...The Middle-earth mythology was created as a mythology for England because Tolkien felt sorrowful about the fact that England had no mythology that was it's own. Any mythology set in Europe is bereft of Black people WHY? Not because the Norse, Angles and Saxons were racist, but simply because there WERE NO BLACKS! It's really a no brainer kids, try to find references to big scary red haired white skinned Norwegians in any African Mythology...I wish you all the luck in the world!!

"As for what you say or hint of `local' conditions: I knew of them. I don't think they have much changed (even for the worse). I used to hear them discussed by my mother; and have ever since taken a special interest in that part of the world. The treatment of colour nearly allways horrifies anyone going out from Brittain, & not only in South Africa." I repost the above for the purpose of pointing out that Tolkien implies here that people of "Colour" are treated better in Brittain then outside of Brittain...meaning that in the time he said this, during WWII, there indeed were Black people in England...many of them Catholics who probably attended the same church as the author.

[Windfola]

Greetings!

I've read several pages of dialog under this topic and decided to reply. Most of you agree that calling tLotR a "racist" story is ridiculous, to say the least. I agree.

The world of which Tolkien wrote is simply a world of his own making, peopled by races & places that stemmed from his creative genius. The story deals with the age-old struggle of good vs. evil; ergo, there must be good and evil beings to enact and perpetuate that struggle, bringing it finally to its conclusion.

Are all orcs bad? I don't know. Do you? But in the story, Tolkien only dealt with bad orcs, bred to follow their evil masters. (I have written a story, by the way, that has, as a pivotal character, an orc with a conscience. I wrote it because I wondered myself if there COULD be such a thing as a "good" orc.)

Are there black people in tLotR? None specifically mentioned, but as someone noted earlier, there are no Japanese, either. Or American Indians. Or other groups of people from our reality. But, as I stated above, this is a fantasy world, and a fantasy world can be peopled with beings of the author's own choosing.

When I create my own stories, I don't use this world as a specific template. I pick and choose what elements of reality to incorporate into my fantasy worlds. Most do not have people such as exist on this earth. Am I racist? I utter an emphatic "no."

The fellow who wrote the article slamming tLotR as "racist" is WAY out in left field somewhere. He needs to get a life.

Someone earlier made a good point when he/she mentioned that tLotR chronicles the deep & enduring friendship that grew between Legolas & Gimli--an Elf and a Dwarf, two races of beings that did not get along very well on the best of days in ME. However, after a rocky introduction, Legolas & Gimli learned to get along and, more than that, they learned to appreciate one another's differences. I'd hardly classify that as "racist."

I've enjoyed the debate on this issue! May Elbereth bless you, one & all!


"Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!"

[ReadWryt]

Actually in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, which is in my backpack in a friend's car right now or I would quote it for you, Tolkien states that left to their own devices Orcs would most likely have set up a society and developed in ways that were similar to the other races, with their own set of moral values and crafts. The Orcs of the Misty Mountains were well on their way to that in The Hobbit. Orcs are, at their core, Elves after all. *Shrug*

[Gil-Galad]

Many things can be said about LOTR because it's a whole world.It's a world parallel to ours where everything is the same but changed so that it makes really a great story.It can be made a parallel with religion,wars,social life,evil...with everything.As I said it's a whole world.:)

[Feanor]

There are numerous references to the 'purity' of the blood of the Numenoreans and even of the high elves. I think this is because of the fact that the Numenoreans had in part decended from hi elvish as well as Maian ancestry (Elros/Elwing/Dior/Luthien/Melian).

So the fact that they're 'fair-skinned' is just secondary to the main point of having Maian and hi elvish genes. And they're white only because in Beleriand , geographically speaking, thats where the Noldor first landed and befriended those peoples while men of the east and far south would have only had contact with Morgoths forces and therefore more susceptible to evil, not bc they were Asian or black.

j

[ReadWryt]

I just shrug off the cries of Racism in these books with the same distain I do when someone starts talking about Frodo and Sam being gay...people will see what they want wherever they want, good or bad.

[Gil-Galad]

ReadWryt,that' a good idea:p "to shrug off ..." you're absolutely right:)