Two Legolas in Tol Eressëa?

[Maedhros]

From the Book of Lost Tales: The Fall of Gondolin
But the others, led by one Legolas Greenleaf of the house of the Tree, who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march.
Legolas 'or Green-leaf was a man of the Tree, who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressëa named by the Eldar there Laiqalassë; but the book of Rúmil saith further hereon.'
From Lord of the Ring: Durin's Folk
But when King Elessar gave up his life Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over Sea.
So we have two Legolas, one a man (elf) that led the exiles of Gondolin and went over to Tol Eressëa and another elf who also went over the seas.
Che pensi tu?

[Melian Le Fay]

Que yo pienso...?
Well, those kinds of questions aren't rare...The similar question was on another thread, when we wandered if there were two Glorfindels... The one from the Silmarillion, noted in the battle of Gondolin ( the one who slayed Balrog), and then another one in LOTR, the on who helped Frodo.
I think that Tolkien used the same names for different characters. I guess there's a logical explanation: once there was a great hero with this and that name, and ages later, another child was named after him, because he resembled him in some way...
But don't forget that HoME is a gathering of Tolkien's infinished works, most of them being just schetches, or different versions...

[aragil]

I think there's a pretty large distinction here between the two Glorfindels and the two Legolai, that being that from his conception the Glofindel of Rivendell was linked with Glorfindel of Gondolin (in initial sketches of the chapter Many Meetings Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel should 'tell of his childhood in Gondolin'. No such linkage exists for the two Legolai, and indeed the concept of a Legolas of Gondolin seems to have been abandoned with the Book of Lost Tales (that is I don't recall him resurfacing in any of the other HoME books).

[Camille]

For me also they are differents:
Legolas on the book of lost tales was a Noldo, (Eldar)
Legolas from LOTR was a silvan elf.

[Melian Le Fay]

I read somewhere that Legolas from LOTR was a Sinda, well... Thranduil and Celeborn are kinsman of Elu Thingol, king of Sindar...which gives me the idea that they pictured Legolas correctly in the film ( with blonde hair), since Thingol and Celeborn were portrayed with silverish hair...

[Melian Le Fay]

I forgot to ask you guys this:
If Glorfindel from LOTR and Glorfindel from the Sil are the same person, why would he come back to Middle Earth from Mandos...?

[aragil]

Not all Elves were doomed to Mandos forever- in fact, Finwe and Feanor are the only two I can think of who get the 'lengthy' stay (each for a different reason). Glorfindel probably came out of the halls fairly quickly. Tolkien then theorized (apparently he wasn't privy to the definitive answer) that Glory-pants was allowed to back to ME due to his heroic death and minimal guilt in the kinslaying, etc.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Millena
I read somewhere that Legolas from LOTR was a Sinda, well... Thranduil and Celeborn are kinsman of Elu Thingol, king of Sindar...which gives me the idea that they pictured Legolas correctly in the film ( with blonde hair), since Thingol and Celeborn were portrayed with silverish hair...

Silver hair was relatively uncommon among the Sindar however, who were mostly dark-haired according to JRRT (despite Thranduil being blond too).

[Cian]

Heck there's a "Gimli" in BoLT too (a Gnome) :p

Tolkien would later conceive of the name Legolas as a dialectal Silvan name (not 'pure' Sindarin).

The Prof. originally 'invented' the name in the 'early' (out-of-story 'early') language Gnomish and once noted: that Legolas was a confusion of two names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas "green-leaf" and Legolast "keen-sight".

[Camille]

hello Walter!!! yeah I am back, I have been kind of lost! thank for the happy Birthday!

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by aragil
Not all Elves were doomed to Mandos forever- in fact, Finwe and Feanor are the only two I can think of who get the 'lengthy' stay (each for a different reason).
But why was Finwe punished with a long stay...?Damn, I can't recall if he did anything wrong...Could someone help me?
But concerning Glorfindel, I think that it was stated in LOTR that there was something special about him, that he belonged to both worlds (meaning this one, and the world beyond death....or something like that:rolleyes: ) That's why the Nazgul could see him!!!
......
I must seem like complete moron when I'm trying to explain something, but, what can I do, I read the books only once!!!Can you imagine that?!!

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by Cian


Silver hair was relatively uncommon among the Sindar however, who were mostly dark-haired according to JRRT (despite Thranduil being blond too).

Well, I read this on Aragil's post that most of the Eldar were darkhaired, save the Vanyar and some of their descendants (Galadriel), but that many of the Sylvan Elves were blonde/silverhaired too...
And that Thingol, Cirdan, Celeborn(also stated in LOTR), Thranduil, and, probably Legolas were silverhaired too (I guess they were all related)

[Cian]

Thranduil is described golden-haired in The Hobbit, and again, Tolkien pointed out that silver was uncommon among the Sindar. I can quote it but have done so now so often I'm trying to avoid it :):):)

[Melian Le Fay]

Nah, you don't have to quote it...
I just remembered that...still haven't read the Hobbit...
But, I'm sure that Celeborn had silver hair, anyway, celeb~ means silver, or "like silver"...
But I know that only the Vanyar are said to have golden hair...so how could these characters have fair hair, and not beeing related to Vanyar?

[aragil]

Originally posted by Millena
Well, I read this on Aragil's post that most of the Eldar were darkhaired, save the Vanyar and some of their descendants (Galadriel), but that many of the Sylvan Elves were blonde/silverhaired too...
And that Thingol, Cirdan, Celeborn(also stated in LOTR), Thranduil, and, probably Legolas were silverhaired too (I guess they were all related)

D'oh! I think I remember that quote, and owing to some cornfusion on my own part I might have given the wrong impression. Cian's right in that Thranduil is the goldy; Celeborn, Cirdan and Elwe were the silver guys. Silver/fair hair was rare among the Sindar and Noldor as a rule, but clearly there were many exceptions, especially among the famous Elves in both groups. So, many of the Sinda who we have names for were fair-haired, but they were the exception among the many thousands of (mostly unnamed) Sindar Elves.

Forgot to add, Millena- Finwe stayed in the halls for a long time because he ran afoul of some Valar-style legalism. The Elves were not allowed to have two wives under any circumstances, even if the first wife died. This is because the Elven spirits were immortal, so a dead wife was not really a permanent thing, and it would be odd if a wife was re-incarnated only to find that her husband had re-married. Finwe was given a special allowance by the Valar in that he was allowed to remarry because Miriel insisted she didn't want to come back. The caveat to this was that Miriel had to agree to reside in Mandos forever. Once Morgoth slew Finwe, he re-acquainted himself with his first wife (in Mandos). The rest of the tale is fuzzy in memory, but I think Finwe volunteered to take Miriel's place, partly out of guilt for having remarried, partly out of grief at his son's deeds in the return trip to Middle-earth.

[Cian]

Originally posted by Millena: But, I'm sure that Celeborn had silver hair, anyway, celeb~ means silver, or "like silver"...

Yep, Tolkien seems to have wanted the name to mean "Silver-tall".

I love the detail of the silvery hair, but am glad too that it was uncommon in the main. Indeed we might "meet" a (relatively) goodly number of folks with this colouration, as Aragil notes, but as he also noted there's alotta Elves in Middle-earth.

~cheers

[Grond]

An interesting passage from Unfinished Tales concerning the Sindarin Princes among the Silvan Elves.from Unfinished Tales, IV The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix B, The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves
In another passage written at the same time as the foregoing it is said that when a thousand years of the Third Age had passed and the Shadow fell upon Greenwood the Great, the Silvan Elves ruled by Thranduil retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.It is equally as clear that Celeborn was a Sindarin Prince who felt less ill will towards the Noldor since he had fallen in love and married one. Nonetheless, when Galadriel and Celeborn were forced to leave Eregion by Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, he took over the kingship of Lorien from his son Amroth. Lorien was made up largely of Silvan Elves.

[aragil]

though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves;

I'd say that bit's even more interesting than the bit you bolded, Grond. I can't recall whether or not the Dwarves in The Hobbit said anything, but I know Gimli told Legolas that the Dwarves of Erebor did help in the delving of the Wood-King's halls. He said so during his description of the glittering caves of Aglorond.
In any case, I think the Wood-king in the halls delved by the dwarves was one of the stronger ties between the Sil and the Hobbit- I was going to mention it for your discussion with Walter on The Hobbit forum.

[Grond]

Originally posted by aragil


I'd say that bit's even more interesting than the bit you bolded, Grond. I can't recall whether or not the Dwarves in The Hobbit said anything, but I know Gimli told Legolas that the Dwarves of Erebor did help in the delving of the Wood-King's halls. He said so during his description of the glittering caves of Aglorond.
In any case, I think the Wood-king in the halls delved by the dwarves was one of the stronger ties between the Sil and the Hobbit- I was going to mention it for your discussion with Walter on The Hobbit forum. Aragil, I've got so many arguments going on in this forum that I can't possibly keep up with them all. :);)

Now... what were we arguing about??? :D

[Melian Le Fay]

You guys are Loremasters indeed!!!!!
What is it that you've read so you know so much about Middle Earth, all of the characters of Tolkien's books, Valinor...?What?!!!! I wan't to know!
I really admire you!!!:)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Millena
You guys are Loremasters indeed!!!!!
What is it that you've read so you know so much about Middle Earth, all of the characters of Tolkien's books, Valinor...?What?!!!! I wan't to know!
I really admire you!!!:) LOL! It isn't what we've read but HOW MANY TIMES we've read them. I've read the major works so many times that I really can't give you an accurate count. I love the works so much that I want to know every detail. Of course, every time I read the books again... new details emerge that were hidden before.

[Melian Le Fay]

Hmmm...I think I understand you....that would probably explain this need and desire I have - to read LOTR again after I had read the Sil...and again read the Sil...;)