Why did the Watcher go for Frodo?

[Evenstar]

I was reading the "Why did Gandalf choose Moria thread?" and someone said that evil attracts evil which is why the watcher in the lake went for Frodo at the entrance of Moria. I don't believe that tough. If the ring did really 'attract' evil then why, as Harad pointed out before, could the Ringwraiths not find Frodo in the Shire. So, why did the Watcher go specifically for Frodo?

[Lord Aragorn]

I think that Tolkien needed something traumatic to happen to Frodo, so we wouldn't think that he was just cruising through the story too long without something endangering the entire hope of Middle-Earth.

[LadyEowyn]

What do you mean they couldn't find him? They followed him every where he went. And, it says in the book multiple times that the ring draws the Ringwraiths to it, because it wants to be found.

In answer to your question, here's a quote from the book.

'I do not know,' answered Gandalf; 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.

I don't think it was the ring itself that made the thing grab Frodo, but it did have something to do with Sauron.

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Lord Aragorn
I think that Tolkien needed something traumatic to happen to Frodo, so we wouldn't think that he was just cruising through the story too long without something endangering the entire hope of Middle-Earth.

I love your name.

I have seen so many different ones, but I haven't seen anyone with my husbands name. Hmmm...I wonder why? He's such a great character.

By the way, I don't think I've had the pleasure of welcoming you to the forum. Welcome, and I hope you have a great time here.:)

[Greenwood]

Originally posted by LadyEowyn
I love your name.
I have seen so many different ones, but I haven't seen anyone with my husbands name

But, my Lady Eowyn, I thought you married the Lord Faramir? :)

[LadyEowyn]

Originally posted by Greenwood


But, my Lady Eowyn, I thought you married the Lord Faramir? :)

LOL. That's who I was talking about. No one has the name Faramir. I'm heart broken, he has a great name.

[Harad]

Lady E,
The Nazgul severely bungled getting the RIng in the SHire.

1. the lone Nazgul went right up to Frodo in the woods. Then galloped in the wrong direction
2.the Nazgul attacked crickhollow 3 days after frodo left

[LadyEowyn]

Yes, but what about what on happend on Weathertop? The Ringwraiths seemed to know exactly where they were.

[lilhobo]

the Nazguls could only smell, they were basically in the wraiths world, and they were too far from Mordor to be effective.....Maybe the one Nazgul wanted to wait for the other 8 since he was confidne to capturing the ring

but one thing is for sure, JRR wanted it be known that the watcher and the chief orctain knew what they were looking for, and that was the RING

[Bill the Pony]

Originally posted by lilhobo
but one thing is for sure, JRR wanted it be known that the watcher and the chief orctain knew what they were looking for, and that was the RING

Really? I have always considered that as an option, since Gandalf speculates about it, but is not sure himself. Where did you find that it's for sure that the watcher knew what it was looking for?

[Kuduk]

I agree with Bill. I gave my explanation on another thread from which I quote here the relevant part (I apologize if some of you have already seen it):

As for the 'evil magnet' theory, I would agree too much has been made of it, and this is based on the examples given by Greenwood (the Crickhollow attack, etc.), Harad (the lone Nazgul in the Shire), et al. Of course, the counter-examples of the Watcher, the Orc-chieftain in Moria, and the other apparent attacks on Frodo (other than the Ringwraiths) would suggest otherwise. But let me emphasize the word suggest. I don't think that there is ever an explicit statement that Frodo is attacked because of the Ring (again, aside from the Ringwraiths' attacks). However, that is not to say that Tolkien did not want us to think so. He is very artful in setting up those attacks so it looks like Frodo is being singled out. But is he really? I don't think the book really makes it clear one way or the other. While chalking things up to coincidence may seem like a cop out, it is a very human quality to want to find causal relations in things that have none, and I think Tolkien expertly exploits that tendency to great dramatic effect.

[lilhobo]

its called 'suspense', but too me its quite obvious if the author makes the enemy targeting frodo not once but TWICE and then have gandalf speculate about it.... Jesus, How obvious do you want the author to go about doing it????


PS. the NAzguls were said to be more effective in the dark, hence weathertop......Aragorn set up fire specifically to sacre them away

[Bucky]

Not only does 'The Watcher in the Water' go after Frodo (coincidence IMHO), but the orc-cheiftain makes a bee-line for Frodo & tries to stick a spear through him in the Chamber of Mazarbul....

On the Nazgul 'sensing the ring':
On Weathertop, they were searcing for the ONLY people in quite a large area, not a heavily inhabited region. Then Frodo puts the ring on & they see him & bear down on him.

As for the Nazgul not sensing the ring, just how far away from the ring is the Black Rider that talks to the Gaffer while Frodo stands around the corner the night they leave Bag End?
Maybe 10 feet?
And, he senses nothing.

BTW, I think attacking Crickhollow 3 days later is pretty god time.
We (The USA) should've been so quick in finding Bin Ladin...

Now, back to the 'Watcher in the Water':
Could it be the Balrog?
Remember Gandalf in Chapter 5 of The Two Towers:
He says of the Balrog, "It's flame was extinguished, but it had become a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake."

Now, that's a bit far fetched, but a possibility none the less.

[Snaga]

Erm Bucky, so after its blocked up the West entrance with a whole load of rocks, does it get out of the water, leg it over the mountains and come back in on the other side? I think you're on your own with that one!;)

[Legolam]

Maybe Gandalf wasn't speculating on the fact that Frodo drew evil things to him, but just that it was a close shave, and that he'd had a fright that the ring was almost lost so close to the start. Maybe he hadn't realised how fragile the quest was until then, because he's always gone on about how invincible hobbits seemed.

Pure speculation! :rolleyes:

[Bucky]

Variag:

I said it was far fetched.
I don't believe it myself....

But, I would assume (it's all assumption anyways here) that there would be an underground passage from the water into Moria.

Remember, Gandalf says they fell from the Bridge at Khazad-Dum into WATER.
Gimli says nobody had ever measured the depth of that chasm, so it's unknown territory.

And Gandalf said that there were passages there beneath the deepest delvings of the Dwarves.
"Too well he (the Balrog) knew them all...."

So, far fetched as it seems, your rebuttle lacks all the available facts.

[Evenstar]

As for the Nazgul not sensing the ring, just how far away from the ring is the Black Rider that talks to the Gaffer while Frodo stands around the corner the night they leave Bag End?

Also, in support to this. When Frodo is at the gate of Mordor with the ring, a place where I woul assume its power is strongest, the Nazgul walks by him withot a problem. Well, he does stop for a moment but is not sure and moves on. So I don't know if he can sense the ring all that well.

[Eonwe]

I think he clutches the phial of Galadriel to move his attention elsewhere?

[Gary Gamgee]

The Nazgul are not masters of the Ring why indeed they have not touched it and remember the power of the ring grows ever stronger the closer it gets to Mordor. In the Shire of course the Nine may have passed it by, it was probably this reason why Gandalf himself choose the people of the Shire to do this job. He knew how their hearts were made.

[Lord Aragorn]

it was probably this reason why Gandalf himself choose the people of the Shire to do this job. He knew how their hearts were made.

I don't believe that Gandalf had any role in choosing the Shire to "do the job". Bilbo's finding of the ring was not anticipated by Gandalf, and the rest from there played out as it has. Gandalf wasn't even sure Bilbo's ring was the One for quite some time after Bilbo initially found it.

[Gamil Zirak]

What was the Watcher in the swollen waters of the Sirannon outside the west entrance into Moria? Did it come from the deeps of Moria? Did it swim up through the rivers from the ocean depths?

[Anarchist]

Well, there are so many evil monsters in LOTR that noone knows where they come from. Surely it wasn't there the time Dwarves roamed in Moria. Maybe it was another one of Sauron's evil servants or maybe just a monster that crept from his dark sanctuary to a place where it could find food. But, I believe it was a servnt of Sauron, because if you read again the part where the watcher attacks, it is mentioned that it first attacked Frodo (it is said that someone from the group noticed it but didn't say a thing).

[pohuist]

Not all monsters are necessarily servants of Sauron (for example Shelob). The Watcher indeed first attacked Frodo but nothing more is ever said about it, and it could have been written so to build suspense. (think about sounds of feet following them, and only much later it is revealed that it was Gollum). Gandalf said that there are dark things in deep places of the world (such as roots of the mountains), some are older and/or not known even to Sauron. I think that the monster is one of them who crept out in search of food.

[Gamil Zirak]

What do you suppose the Watcher was eating before it came to its current residence? There isn't any mention of the Dwarves disturbing it. Do you think it came there are stopped up the Sirannon had been dammed by the Watcher or someone else (i.e. Sauron or even Saruman)?

[pohuist]

Originally posted by shiloh53
What do you suppose the Watcher was eating before it came to its current residence? There isn't any mention of the Dwarves disturbing it. Do you think it came there are stopped up the Sirannon had been dammed by the Watcher or someone else (i.e. Sauron or even Saruman)?

"The Silent watcher got ..." I forgot the name of the dwarf, but you could look it up. The cite is from the chapter on the journey trough Moria when they found the diary beside Balin's tomb. The Watcher did eat at least one dwarf. And, since the Watcher's nature is not known, we do not know how often it had to eat to sustain itself.

[Niniel]

But the Watcher didn't live there rfom the beginning, did it? Because when Moria was still flowering, there was no lake, but just a little stream coming out of the mountains, and it only became a lake after the stream was blocked. So where did it live before? And how did it get to the water? And why is it called the 'watcher' Who told it to watch the gates of Moria? Can't it be a servant of Sauron who was put there to guard the gates?

[Lantarion]

Did Sauron or the Witch-King take over Moria after the first Dwarves fled? I can't remember, but I think it was Sauron.
Anyway, I think the Watcher was one of Morgoth's ancient servants, that was perhaps a gate keeper in one of his dank dungeons in Angband. It had survived through the Ages, like the Balrog, and probably didn't need much food because it was gene-manipulated (and this is a fantasy tale, remember). It only popped up because Balin et al. went in to reoccupy Khazad-dûm, and it got angry when all the Orcs got in so it started eating Dwarves.
That's my theory, anyway. :)

[Anarchist]

Originally posted by pohuist
Not all monsters are necessarily servants of Sauron (for example Shelob). The Watcher indeed first attacked Frodo but nothing more is ever said about it, and it could have been written so to build suspense. (think about sounds of feet following them, and only much later it is revealed that it was Gollum). Gandalf said that there are dark things in deep places of the world (such as roots of the mountains), some are older and/or not known even to Sauron. I think that the monster is one of them who crept out in search of food.

I agree that not all monsters and creatures are either friends to other species or servnts of Sauron. Indeed some creatures like Shelob, the spiders in Mirkwood (from The Hobbit) etc. serve their own purposes. But I really believe it was Sauron's servant, since it appeared out of nowhere (how could he go all the way there since it was a water creature?), and it attacked Frodo. Maybe there were passages underwater not known from which the creature, in search for food, used to go to the lake. But remember that in older days there was no lake, at least not of that size over there, but just a river. Maybe Sauron turned that place to a dark lake and placed one of his servants there.

[pohuist]

I don't think Sauron needed someone to watch the gates to Moria. There were enough Orcs and a Balrog inside. The Watcher wouldn't be able to keep an army (of dwarves or otherwise) from entering. On the other hand Sauron was interested that the Ring be captured by someone not powerful enough to resist him (Orc) or someone enslaved to his spirit (Ringwraith). If the Watcher was one of Morgoth's servants of old (quite possible in my mind), he was not necessarily Sauron's servant (just like Moria's Balrog).

[Gamil Zirak]

Some time between Third Age 2845 and 2989 the watcher in the water "appears." I'm guessing on the first date because Gandalf states that he came through Moria and left via the west gate looking for Thráin, and Thráin was captured by the Necromancer and placed in the dungeons of Dol Guldor that year. The last year is pretty accurate because that's the year Balin ventured to Moria. I think that the Watcher was placed there by Saruman. Sauron began to people Moria with his creatures in 2480; as stated above, Gandalf passed through those gates after that and no watcher was to be found.

Edited for the misspelling of Saruman and because Pontifex is a wise guy.

[Lantarion]

Uh, who's Sarumon? :D

[Gil-Galad]

I think that Sauron really doesn't have any need of keeping Moria and that monster seems to me very very ancient.It was probably "made" by Morgoth and was somewhere in the depths of Moria ,just like the Balrog.There are so much monsters in Tolkien's works that it's impossible to know their origin.

[Galadhwen]

Kracken, The nassty Watcher in the Water. What exactly is he? Where did he come from? What happened to him/it? Does anyone know, or is he just a creature of the Dark without any explanation:confused:
Cheers
GW.

[Dwarf Lord]

I have looked through the books, and found no explanation except he was there to watch the door.


DWARF LORD

[Gamil Zirak]

Check out this thread: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3865 for some discussions on the Watcher. It hasn't been posted to in a while (about four months), but there's still some stuff in there.

[Beorn]

I merged the one in the link, and another one you posted onto this....

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Gamil Zirak
Some time between Third Age 2845 and 2989 the watcher in the water "appears." I think that the Watcher was placed there by Saruman.

Why would Saruman need to watch the gates of Moria some time b/w 2845 and 2989 TA?

Why Watcher had to be placed by someone? We only decide that it watches the gates because the dwarves call it "Watcher". Maybe it just lives in that pool looking for occasional orc, dwarf and hobbit to go by. The traffic was good in the old days. The pool wasn't there originally, nor was the Watcher there. It has crept in some time after the pool appears. Of course, its not a Balrog, Balrog would not be fetched off so easily. Balrog has two arms and the Watcher has many tentacles. The Watcher was one of ancient creatures, not necessarily a servant of Morgoth, (like Ungoliant never was), probably disturbed by dwarves or Balrog who went off and found (or possibly created) another place for itself to live. Actually, I like disturbed/creeping off because of Balrog theory.

[Gamil Zirak]

Since Sauron was doing a little bit of double dealing, he needed to have himself protected from the West. Besides, he had other servants with eyes and ears for him. Why not have someone watch a big strong hold for him.

[Galadhwen]

Yea, OK. But how did it get there in the first place? The Water ways that Gandalf and Durin's Bane fought in were much much further underground. Did Kracken fly up the outlet of the water ways, block the stream wait a bit for it to fill up then reside there? On the Saruman theory could Kracken be a perverted creature a bit like the Half Orcs/Uruks Saruman so cleverly mixed to give a guard to stop the orcs leaving Hollin Gate? Did Saruman block the outlet to the stream. Also how deep is the basin, it must be pretty deep for Kracken to be submerged.:)
Cheers for the link
Galadhwen

[Gamil Zirak]

The Watcher could have swam up the water way from the depths of the ocean and then blocked off the stream for it to reside. I don't think it would have had anything to eat if it was in the depths of Moria and I don't see how it could get out of Moria either.

[pohuist]

The Watcher wasn't much protection from an army, wasn't much a spy either -- the spies have to get back to their mastet to give him tidings. The Watcher could only be useful by turning off a small group, but Saruman did not need that -- he had spies and Orcs to deal with small groups. I do not think that Watcher crept from the ocean -- what are the chances he will stop so far inland. Moria is a much better guess IMHO.

[Gamil Zirak]

How did the watcher get out of Moria then?

[Galadhwen]

Is it possible that Sauron could have created it then given baby Kracken to the Witch King to deliver to the West Gate as a further deterent to gain passage to Moria or for the soul purpose of nabbing the Ringbearer should he chance to pass through Moria which it turned out he did, if he got the Ring Kracken would hardly creep into the tunnels and hide for half a century like some. Yes I'm clutching at straws but ya never know:)

[Gamil Zirak]

The "baby" watcher wouldn't have time to grow by them. Besides, Sauran had orcs in Moria waiting for anyone that should wish to pass.

[Galadhwen]

True. I was clutching at straws.:D

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Gamil Zirak
How did the watcher get out of Moria then?

Like Wesley Snipes got into White House in "Murder at 1600" -- Crawled.
:)

The Moria wasn't an abyss with the passage above it. It was an interconnected set of passageways on different level.

[Gamil Zirak]

How many of these different levels lead out? As far as we know, there were three ways out (the east gate, the west gate, and the tower on top of Moria). None of those three have access to water.

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Galadhwen
Is it possible that Sauron could have created it then given baby Kracken to the Witch King to deliver to the West Gate as a further deterent to gain passage to Moria or for the soul purpose of nabbing the Ringbearer should he chance to pass through Moria which it turned out he did, if he got the Ring Kracken would hardly creep into the tunnels and hide for half a century like some. Yes I'm clutching at straws but ya never know:)

It seems like everybody insists that this thing must have been created by Sauron or Saruman or Morgoth? I don't see why. Didn't Gandalf said right there and then that there are more asncient things that Sauron not connected with him. Why it can't be some carnivorous creature that had to eat every now and then (like Shelob).

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Gamil Zirak
How many of these different levels lead out? As far as we know, there were three ways out (the east gate, the west gate, and the tower on top of Moria). None of those three have access to water.

And where does it say thay the creature could not live on dry land?