Dagor Aglareb - Great Debate #1

[Grond]

Let the great debate begin. The Topic of this debate is
Who had the greatest impact on the Quendi during the first three ages of Middle-earth - Sauron or Melkor????

The Guild of the Periaur gets to choose which position they choose to defend. The debate will begin with their first post.

Good luck to all and here's to a wonderful, informative and above all... FUN... debate.

PS When I say Quendi, I mean all the Elves of Arda, not those that stayed in Aman.

[Maedhros]

We of the Guild of Periaur will choose the side of Melkor. We will argue that definitely Melkor had the greatest influence over the Quendi in his period of power in ME.
From the Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
Yet many of the Quendi were filled with dread at his coming; and this was the doing of Melkor. For by after-knowledge the wise declare that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them.
So Melkor was better prepared for the coming of the Quendi than even the Valar and he send messengers to them. Melkor caused the Valar to act more rapidly and forced them to summon the quendi to Valinor, influencing the Quendi.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.
So, we have that because of Melkor a great quantity of the Quedi were moved to Valinor and other were under his direct sphere of influence.
Then after Morgoth was captured in Valinor, his servants were waiting for his return and establishing their forces.
In Valinor, after Melkor was released he perverted the mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar in Valinor that produced the greatest of the races of Elves in Valinor to rebell against the Valar. So we have that Melkor not only influenced all of the quendi, but in Valinor he chose the best ones to disrupt the peace of the Valar.
From the Letters of JRRT: 131
The main body of the tale, the Silmarillion proper, is about the fall of the most gifted kindred of the Elves, their exile from Valinor (a kind of Paradise, the home of the Gods) in the furthest West, their re-entry into Middle-earth, the land of their birth but long under the rule of the Enemy, and their strife with him, the power of Evil still visibly incarnate.
After Melkor duped the Noldor to go to ME, he caused even greater dissention among the elves themselves that they couldn't unite against him and he destroyed their kindoms utterly. (Gondolin, Nargothrond, etc).

Then we have the elves that didn't went to Valinor. The most vivid example are those of Menegroth. Thingol never fully accepted the Noldor because he saw them as a threat to his status as king of Beleriand. Especially the House of Fëanor never trusted Thingol and there could be no union of the elves against Melkor.

The best chance that the elves had of dealing with Melkor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the elves blew it because Melkor by his cunning, deceived Ulfgang into betraying Maedhros and destroyed their chances of winning the battle. In that battle the House of Fëanor was anihilated along with the Kingdom of Fingon. He even used the elves themselves to kill each other. (Alqualondë and Doriath). Then he took care of the only other kingdoms such as: Nargothrond, Menegroth (destroyed by his enemies dwarves and elves) and Gondolin. There was no one to oppose him (Círdan who?) and Morgoth was vanquished by the Valar because of a man called Eärendel.

The elves that remained in ME after that were a mere mockery of the elf kingdoms that once stood in ME. Could you compare the kingdom of Gil-Galad with Gondolin of the seven doors? No.
Sauron used his master blueprints for gaining power. He deceived the elves, just as Melkor did with what the elves wanted. The Noldor in Valinor were deceived by what they wanted, to learn new things and have kingdoms of their own, while those deceived by Sauron were deceived because they wanted to preserve the beauty of the world that existed only in Valinor to ME.
Sauron could not make the elves battle each other as Melkor did. Sauron worked with the infrastructure that Melkor builded in ME.

[Maedhros]

The debate has begun, right?:confused:

[Grond]

Gothmog informs me that the Ost-in-Edhil is busy researching the subject and their opening post will posted shortly.

[aragil]

At their age they shouldn't put anything off for too long.

[Gothmog]

aragil, This is very true:p :D

While it is true that Melkor was the most powerful of the Ainur who came down into Arda and did many things that had great impact on the Quendi. It is also true that in most of his deeds Sauron was greatly involved.
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, of Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
So the impact of Melkor would have been much lessened had it not been for Sauron. He was given much authority to do things with out haveing Melkor commanding his every move.
And Melkor made also a fortress and armoury not far from the north-western shores of the sea, to resist any assault that might come from Aman. That stronghold was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor; and it was named Angband.
After Melkor was invited to visit Valinor and Mandos for an age or three, it was left to Sauron to work to keep such creatures of Melkor as were left in Middle-earth employed until Melkor returned. After this happened Melkor dug himself a deep hole and there stayed for the most part until the end of the First Age and the breaking of Thangorodrim. During this time, although Melkor had great impact alone on the Elves of Valinor, in Middle-earth Sauron was involved in all that was done to the Quendi and his power and evil had much to do with all that Melkor did.

Also while Melkor hid himself away in first Utumno and later in Angband Sauron was 'Out and About' actualy doing the work in Beleriand. After he returned to Middle-earth Melkors' impact was far more indirect than that of Sauron.

Sauron it was who the Elves saw most and over the widest area. He came in battle against them and won victories. Melkor did indeed slay the High King Fingolfin in one on one battle, however:
For nigh on two years after the Dagor Bragollach the Noldor still defended the western pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and Minas Tirith withstood the Orcs. But at length, after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin Tongue was name Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment. he took Minas Tirith by assault, for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; and Orodreth was driven out, and fled to Nargothrond. Then Sauron made it into a watchtower for Morgoth, a stronghold of evil, and a menace; and the fair isle of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat. And Morgoth held now the western pass, and his terror filled the fields and woods of Beleriand. Beyond Hithlum he pursued his foes relentlessly, and he searched out their hiding-places and took their strongholds one by one. The Orcs growing ever bolder wandered at will far and wide, coming down Sirion in the west and Celon in the east, and they encompassed Doriath; and they harried the lands so that beast and bird fled before them, and silence and desolation spread steadily from the North. Many of the Noldor and the Sindar they took captive and led to Angband, and made them thralls, forcing them to use their skill and their knowledge in the service of Morgoth.
So even in the first age where Melkor ruled from deep inside Angband Sauron had great and direct impact upon the Quendi in Middle-earth, even those who came from Valinor because of Melkor's lies and actions there.

After the end of the First Age of Middle-earth, Melkor no longer remained in Arda but Sauron did and gained great power for himself. Many Elves wished also to remain in the land they loved rather than go into the West.These Sauron attempted to lure into his service.
but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise. only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship. And he said to them: 'Alas, for the weakness of the great! For a mighty king is Gil-galad, and wise in all lore is Master Elrond, and yet they will not aid me in my labours. Can it be that they do not desire to see other lands become as blissful as their own? But wherefore should middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor? And since you have not returned thither, as you might, I perceive that you love this Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labour together for its enrichment, and for the raising of all the Elven-kindreds that wander here untaught to the height of that power and knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?'
Sauron could not get all of the Quendi to listen to him but some did.
It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works. Moreover they were not at peace in their hearts, since they had refused to return into the West, and they desired both to stay in Middle-earth, which indeed they loved, and yet to enjoy the bliss of those that had departed. Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
In making these Rings the Elves of Erigion opened the door to Sauron and caused the destruction of their realm. Although the Elves took off the rings when Sauron first put on the One Ring and so did not fall under his power, nontheless Sauron came to them with war. He laid waste Erigion and took 16 of the 19 rings of power. Three only were saved from Sauron and until the One Ring was taken from him these could not be used but had to be hidden.

Sauron then made war upon the Elves of Middle-earth and did all that he could to destroy them.
Thus the Black Years began, which the Elves call the Days of Flight. In that time many of the Elves of Middle-earth fled to Lindon and thence over the seas never to return; and many were destroyed by Sauron and his servants. But in Lindon Gil-galad still maintained his power, and Sauron dared not as yet to pass the Mountains of Ered Luin nor to assail the Havens;
So the Quendi in Middle-earth went from living in peace to a state of constant war with the forces of Sauron. This lasted until the time of the Last Alliance and the first downfall of Sauron when the One Ring was taken from him.

Although Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age. His Impact on the Quendi was not ended. The Second Age saw the Quendi go from living peacefuly to a state of war and flight West. The Third Age saw them end the war and go to a state of watchfulness where they knew that the One Ring would come to light and Sauron would return and that they would then face either losing the war with him or destroying the One Ring and losing Middle-earth to Men. In either case the Quendi knew that they could not win, the best they could hope for was to be able to leave Middle-earth in peace.

So Looking at this it seems to me that the Impact of Sauron on the Quendi was not only very great but for far longer than that of Melkor. Sauron's impact lasted through-out the time of Melkor and then for a further Two full Ages beyond and included the final flowering of Elven-kind east of the Sea.

[Gamil Zirak]

Melkor had the greatest impact on the Quendi. He caused a rift between them and the Valar and was allowed to run amuck in ME while the Valar sat and watched. He also destroyed the greatest kingdoms of the elves. Sauron had a greter impact on the race of men. He help destroy the Numenorian Kingdom and put a wedge between elves and men.

[chrysophalax]

Sauron's influence over the Quendi cannot be emphasised enough. His hatred and detestation of ALL Iluvatar's creations seemed to culminate in his unbridled desire for ultimate domination over ME.

As stated by the inestimable Gothmog, his greatest triumph came "post-mortem" so to speak, with the Elves seeking peace in the West after the War of the Ring, thus deminishing ME's peoples, forever depriving ME of their beauty and knowledge. To so affect a people as to drive them from their home-land, causing them to up-root themselves from the lands they come to love over centuries of habitation, causing such upheaval with an entire race that they cannot bear life as they have always known it, shows incredible power and cruelty.

Melkor in all his might never drove the Quendi from their lands, he only caused them to fight for it harder. Sauron succeeded where Melkor failed in bringing despair into the hearts and minds of the Quendi.

[Gamil Zirak]

The Quendi left ME because they grew weary of it. Besides, they grew weary of the bleased Relm. Melkor took an entire people and uprooted them closer to him so he could torment them even more. Sauron just drove them away to a place where nothing would matter.

[Gothmog]

Not so Gamil Zirak. Sauron, by persuading the smiths of Erigion to make the Rings of power placed the Quendi of Middle-earth in the position of 'If they lost to Sauron they would be deprived of the chance of living in Middle-earth which they loved greatly but If they beat Sauron then they would be themselves throwing away their chance of living in Middle-earth which they loved greatly.' What a nasty and cruel choice to force onto any people. "Heads Sauron wins, Tails Quendi lose!!!"

At impact to make even Grond seem like a Rubber Mallet. :D

[Turgon]

I think it is also worth mentioning at this point that after his release from Mandos, Melkor had become more of a passive force; cowed almost by his enprisonment, he relied upon accomplices and lieutenants almost exclusively. Thus we see the upstart Lord of Arda mocked by his greatest enemy...


'Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightest of all the dwellers in Eä.

Then Melkor departed in shame and, for he was himself in peril, and he saw not his time yet for revenge.'

So Melkor slunk away like a thief in the night, which in fact to all intents he had been reduced to. It was only with Ungoliant's help that he was able to destroy the Two Trees, slay Finwë and steal the Silmarils - and after his subsequent flight to Middle Earth (and rescue by his Balrog host ) - Melkor dug deep into the pits of Angband, and apart from one notable occasion troubled not the face of Beleriand with his noisome presence until his doom fell upon him.

It must be said that after his return Melkor did not 'run amuck' anywhere, indeed after Fingolfin had a stab at him he was in no fit state to do so...;)

But to return to the subject of the Theft of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor: This indeed was the signal act which stirred the Noldor to rebellion, but can Melkor be given full credit for it? Without Ungoliant's Darkening would the Noldor have followed Fëanor so freely? A great degree of free-will was involved in the Noldor's flight from Valinor.

As for Melkor's destuction of the Elven Kingdoms of Beleriand - again we see him relying heavily upon his Lieutenants: Sauron took Tol Sirion (perhaps the most strategic of the Noldorin outposts in the North) thus cutting a path for Melkor right into the heart of Beleriand, and it was there too, that Sauron accomplished the death of perhaps the greatest of the Princes of the Eldar, Finrod Felagund.

The greatest enemy of the Noldor was the Noldor - The Doom of Mandos saw to that. It was always the main obstacle in the war against Melkor, in fact I can think of no victories in which the Curse of the Noldor did not play a significant part.

[Grond]

Both sides have put forth compelling and well researched posts. I congratulate both sides. Guild of the Periaur, I believe the ball is in your court. :)

[Maedhros]

En français on dit "le coup de grace".
I'm going to demonstrate once and for all that Melkor not only had the greatest influence on the Quendi, but in all of ME.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed
Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
All of ME was under Morgoth's influence. Those who had bodies like the Quendi had a tendency towards Melkor, NONE were free from him.
So even in the first age where Melkor ruled from deep inside Angband Sauron had great and direct impact upon the Quendi in Middle-earth, even those who came from Valinor because of Melkor's lies and actions there.
Yes, Melkor did indeed ruled from inside Angband, and he had liutenants that were loyal to him and did his bidding. Another example could be Gothmog. If we follow the "other" argument, we could say that Gothmog had an even greater impact that Sauron, for he slayed Fëanor (High King of the Noldor), Fingon (another High King), and was involved in the major campagins in ME, it was he who brougth Húrin to Morgoth. But wait, I can go further than that. I could say that it was the "armies" of Morgoth that real the damage, after all they were the ones who actually fought the battles. They definitely had a bigger impact than Sauron.
But wait, from Sauron to Gothmog and down the ladder of power, they were all working for Morgoth, none of his liutenants dared to usurp his dominance. Sauron was more in the open, but he was not serving himself, he was serving his master Morgoth, doing his will.
Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
Sauron was not even original.:(
Sauron could not get all of the Quendi to listen to him but some did.
Ah, but Morgoth influenced ALL of the Quendi in ME.
So Looking at this it seems to me that the Impact of Sauron on the Quendi was not only very great but for far longer than that of Melkor. Sauron's impact lasted through-out the time of Melkor and then for a further Two full Ages beyond and included the final flowering of Elven-kind east of the Sea.
Far longer than Melkor?
From Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed
'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.
The complete erradication of Morgoth would only be when the whole of Arda was Remade or Healed, unlike Sauron who was erradicated when his ring was destroyed.
Melkor in all his might never drove the Quendi from their lands, he only caused them to fight for it harder. Sauron succeeded where Melkor failed in bringing despair into the hearts and minds of the Quendi.
Fingon had been close in friendship with Maedhros; and though he knew not yet that Maedhros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships, the thought of their ancient friendship stung his heart. Therefore he dared a deed which is Justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth m search of Maedhros; and aided by the very darkness that Morgoth had made he came unseen into the fastness of his foes. High upon the shoulders of Thangorodrim he climbed, and looked in despair upon the desolation of the land; but no passage or crevice could he find through which he might come within Morgoth's stronghold.
despair = despair. Fingon = Quendi = despair.
Melkor didn't drove the Quendi from their lands? What about the destruction of the Kingdoms of Maedhros, Fingon, Gondolin, Nargothrond? Did they left willingly I assume. And these kingdoms were far greater than any other kingdoms after the capture of Morgoth.
But to return to the subject of the Theft of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor: This indeed was the signal act which stirred the Noldor to rebellion, but can Melkor be given full credit for it? Without Ungoliant's Darkening would the Noldor have followed Fëanor so freely? A great degree of free-will was involved in the Noldor's flight from Valinor.
And who was it that recruited Ungoliant. I think that his name was Melkor, and it was Melkor himself that slew Finwë. Also remember that Finwë was the High King of All the Noldor.
As for Melkor's destuction of the Elven Kingdoms of Beleriand - again we see him relying heavily upon his Lieutenants: Sauron took Tol Sirion (perhaps the most strategic of the Noldorin outposts in the North) thus cutting a path for Melkor right into the heart of Beleriand, and it was there too, that Sauron accomplished the death of perhaps the greatest of the Princes of the Eldar, Finrod Felagund.
And who was Sauron working for, himself of Morgoth. He was doing the devices of Morgoth all along and not his.
The greatest enemy of the Noldor was the Noldor - The Doom of Mandos saw to that. It was always the main obstacle in the war against Melkor, in fact I can think of no victories in which the Curse of the Noldor did not play a significant part.
And who it was that put the thoughts in the heart of the Noldor to go again east and gain Kingdoms to rule for themselves? Morgoth.

[chrysophalax]

Hmmmm, interesting! However, it appears to me that Melkor was a One Age Wonder. Having gotten himself banished to the Void kinda put a crimp in his style, wouldn't you say?

Sauron, on the other hand, was now able to become his own free-agent. Not only harrying the Elves but his favourite play-things, Men. Of all Melkor's underlings he had the most ambition and drive, while not one of the Valar, his abilities and capacity for evil easily equalled that of Melkor.

Melkor, it appears to me, also had a weakness, probably stemming from the fact that he'd had a hand in the Music. He coveted beautiful things, he didn't wish them destroyed, he wanted and lusted after them. Hence his seduction by Luthien.
Sauron wanted power and domination. Period. He had no such desire to keep anything whole, only to twist it to his own will. Even disembodied, he sought to spread terror throughout Mirkwood as the Necromancer. He knew and recognized the Elves as his greatest threat and he stopped at nothing to weaken them, creating war and despair to the point where they finally abandoned ME.

[Gothmog]

coup de ???

Lets have a look shall we?

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.

Now from the Silmarillion:
Of the Enemies.
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. But that name he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, and they name him Morgoth, the Dark Enemy of the World. Great might was given to him by Ilúvatar, and he was coëval with Manwë. In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny. For he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwë and dominion over the realms of his peers.
From splendour he hell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless. Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own well all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.
Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. for of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Of the Darkening of ValinorThereafter the watch was redoubled along the northern fences of Aman; but to no purpose, for ere ever the pursuit set out Melkor had turned back, and in secrecy passed away far to the south. for he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever. AndNow Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno; a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after. AlsoMelkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground. But Ungoliant sucked it up, and going then from Tree to Tree she set her black beak to their wounds, till they were drained; and the poison to Death that was in her went into their tissues and withered them, root, branch, and leaf; and they died. And still she thirsted, and going to the Wells of Varda she drank them dry; but Ungoliant belched forth black vapours as she drank, and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid. Of the Flight of the NoldorFor with my power that I put into thee thy work was accomplished. I need thee no more. These things thou shalt not have, nor see. I name them unto myself for ever.'
But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him; and she rose against him, and her cloud closed about him, and she enmeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him.
Seems to be a different view of how he came to be 'incarnate' So it depends upon which view you take. Myself I follow the Silmarillion version.Yes, Melkor did indeed ruled from inside Angband, and he had liutenants that were loyal to him and did his bidding. Another example could be Gothmog. If we follow the "other" argument, we could say that Gothmog had an even greater impact that Sauron, for he slayed Fëanor (High King of the Noldor), Fingon (another High King), and was involved in the major campagins in ME, it was he who brougth Húrin to Morgoth. But wait, I can go further than that. I could say that it was the "armies" of Morgoth that real the damage, after all they were the ones who actually fought the battles. They definitely had a bigger impact than Sauron.
But wait, from Sauron to Gothmog and down the ladder of power, they were all working for Morgoth, none of his liutenants dared to usurp his dominance. Sauron was more in the open, but he was not serving himself, he was serving his master Morgoth, doing his will.
In answer Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, of Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
This shows that Sauron, far from being someone who was only "Serving his master Morgoth, doing his will." Was in fact someone who was involved in the planning of what was to be done. "In all the deeds, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part." All others just followed orders, Sauron Helped to shape those orders. Also when Melkor was in Utumno He built another Stronghold which was commanded by who? Sauron was it not? And later after his visit to Aman Melkor moved into Angband and Sauron then took command of Tol Sirion. Again given more freedom of action than any other in Melkor's hosts.
Sauron was not even original. What difference does that make?? He still had more impact on the Quendi.
Ah, but Morgoth influenced ALL of the Quendi in ME. In what way?? It was the Valar that moved them from Cuiviénen and not all followed then.The complete erradication of Morgoth would only be when the whole of Arda was Remade or Healed, unlike Sauron who was erradicated when his ring was destroyed. This may well be true but even in the erradication of Sauron the Quendi lost and had known for an Age that they would lose whatever happened. That is something that will have great impact upon all of them.
And who was Sauron working for, himself of Morgoth. He was doing the devices of Morgoth all along and not his. Until the end of the First Age.But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void. After that he was working for himself.
In the End it comes down to this difference between Melkor and Sauron. In all that Melkor did he left the Quendi always with some HOPE of victory. When Sauron forged the One Ring He left the Quendi with NO HOPE of victory. Whatever happened to him the Elves knew that Their cause was lost, they would have to leave the lands they loved.

[Gamil Zirak]

quote:
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Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, of Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
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This shows that Sauron, far from being someone who was only "Serving his master Morgoth, doing his will." Was in fact someone who was involved in the planning of what was to be done. "In all the deeds, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part." All others just followed orders, Sauron Helped to shape those orders. Also when Melkor was in Utumno He built another Stronghold which was commanded by who? Sauron was it not? And later after his visit to Aman Melkor moved into Angband and Sauron then took command of Tol Sirion. Again given more freedom of action than any other in Melkor's hosts.
No where does it say that Sauron thought up the works and deceits for Melkor or even help think them up. It says that he had a part. His part was doing the dirty work. It's like in the Mob. Melkor is the leader and Sauron is the grunt who does all the dirty work.

In the End it comes down to this difference between Melkor and Sauron. In all that Melkor did he left the Quendi always with some HOPE of victory. When Sauron forged the One Ring He left the Quendi with NO HOPE of victory. Whatever happened to him the Elves knew that Their cause was lost, they would have to leave the lands they loved.
Who was more damaging? The one you were able to destroy or the one you had to have "big brother" take care of. After Sauron was destroyed, there was nothing left of his creation to do any damage. The wraiths were gone and the rings of power were deemed useless. Even after Suaron's destruction, Melkor's orcs were still around causing havic against their most bitter enemies who they were made in defiance of.

[Maedhros]

However, it appears to me that Melkor was a One Age Wonder. Having gotten himself banished to the Void kinda put a crimp in his style, wouldn't you say?
Well, his protegé followed in the footsteps of his master, and even in the Void, all of ME was under his influence because he spend much of his energies "corrupting" Arda. The only way to destroy his influence was "Remaking Arda" or "Arda Healed" as it was later called by JRRT.
Melkor, it appears to me, also had a weakness, probably stemming from the fact that he'd had a hand in the Music. He coveted beautiful things, he didn't wish them destroyed, he wanted and lusted after them. Hence his seduction by Lúthien.
He didn't coveted beautiful things. This was his purpose.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed
Thus, as 'Morgoth', when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction.
He wanted only to be the only one.
Sauron wanted power and domination. Period. He had no such desire to keep anything whole, only to twist it to his own will. Even disembodied, he sought to spread terror throughout Mirkwood as the Necromancer. He knew and recognized the Elves as his greatest threat and he stopped at nothing to weaken them, creating war and despair to the point where they finally abandoned ME.
The elves utimately wanted to go to the West, it wasn't because of Sauron that they wanted to go, but it was in their hearts to do so.

[Maedhros]

Seems to be a different view of how he came to be 'incarnate' So it depends upon which view you take. Myself I follow the Silmarillion version.
Nope, there's only one version
From Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed
To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate'
This shows that Sauron, far from being someone who was only "Serving his master Morgoth, doing his will." Was in fact someone who was involved in the planning of what was to be done. "In all the deeds, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part." All others just followed orders, Sauron Helped to shape those orders. Also when Melkor was in Utumno He built another Stronghold which was commanded by who? Sauron was it not? And later after his visit to Aman Melkor moved into Angband and Sauron then took command of Tol Sirion. Again given more freedom of action than any other in Melkor's hosts.
From the Silmarillion
The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder. Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the rained halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord
Never, in the time of Melkor's captivity did Sauron tried to usurp his reign as the Leader of his forces. That Sauron took part in the planning of strategies is certain, because he was one of the leaders of Morgoth's armies, but everything that he was doing was for the benefit of his master Melkor.
In what way?? It was the Valar that moved them from Cuiviénen and not all followed then.
In this way:
Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
In the End it comes down to this difference between Melkor and Sauron. In all that Melkor did he left the Quendi always with some HOPE of victory. When Sauron forged the One Ring He left the Quendi with NO HOPE of victory. Whatever happened to him the Elves knew that Their cause was lost, they would have to leave the lands they loved.
First, let's define the cause of which you refer.
The Noldor, in particular Celebrimbor, they were not at peace in their hearts. (Influence of Melkor) and they desired to both: stay in ME and have the bliss that they had in Valinor. They were destined to fail and return regardless of Sauron because only in Valinor that beauty could be sustained forever (because that part of Arda was not influenced by Melkor). It was not Sauron that caused the elves to go west, it was the elves themselves that had to go, for the desire of the bliss of Valinor was forever in their hearts. Sauron didn't put that desire, it was there.
coup de ???
En français on dit donner "le coup de grace".

[Gothmog]

Nope, there's only one version
From Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed
Silmarillion has it different and therefore there is more that one version. I still go with the Silmarillion.

Never, in the time of Melkor's captivity did Sauron tried to usurp his reign as the Leader of his forces. That Sauron took part in the planning of strategies is certain, because he was one of the leaders of Morgoth's armies, but everything that he was doing was for the benefit of his master Melkor. Where did I at any time claim that during the time of Melkor's captivity Sauron attempted to usurp the position of Melkor??? Sauron is the ONLY one that is shown to have a part in ALL things done by Melkor.

After the end of the First Age Sauron then worked for himself and himself alone.

In this way: See Above.

The Noldor, in particular Celebrimbor, they were not at peace in their hearts. (Influence of Melkor) and they desired to both: stay in ME and have the bliss that they had in Valinor. They were destined to fail and return regardless of Sauron because only in Valinor that beauty could be sustained forever (because that part of Arda was not influenced by Melkor). It was not Sauron that caused the elves to go west, it was the elves themselves that had to go, for the desire of the bliss of Valinor was forever in their hearts. Sauron didn't put that desire, it was there.
The wearyness of the world did not come from Melkor but from the Valar (Doom of the Noldor). Sauron first gave to them the means of preserving and remaining. He then removed the Hope of that by forging the One Ring. He was the only one to take All hope of remaining from the Elves. Also you cannot "Have your cake and Eat it" Arda is Arda. Middle-earth is Arda Aman is Arda. If you say that Melkor Influenced Arda then he influenced Aman also.

No where does it say that Sauron thought up the works and deceits for Melkor or even help think them up. It says that he had a part. His part was doing the dirty work. It's like in the Mob. Melkor is the leader and Sauron is the grunt who does all the dirty work. It says so in the Quote you reposted without fully reading. A "Grunt who does all the dirty work" would not be the ONLY one of Melkors' followers that it is said of in All the works and deceits of Melkor he had a part.

[Maedhros]

The wearyness of the world did not come from Melkor but from the Valar (Doom of the Noldor). Sauron first gave to them the means of preserving and remaining. He then removed the Hope of that by forging the One Ring. He was the only one to take All hope of remaining from the Elves. Also you cannot "Have your cake and Eat it" Arda is Arda. Middle-earth is Arda Aman is Arda. If you say that Melkor Influenced Arda then he influenced Aman also.
This is where you're wrong. Have you not seen my quotes:
Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
Outside the Blessed Realm is where Melkor instituted his influence. So you see, I can "Have my cake and Eat it".;)
The weariness of the world did indeed come from Melkor, the Doom of the Noldor was that they could not come back to there were none of Melkor's influences, and that is why the felt weariness.
The elves that stayed, attempted the impossible. They wanted to have the best of both worlds and they couldn't.
The Noldor, in particular Celebrimbor, they were not at peace in their hearts. (Influence of Melkor) and they desired to both: stay in ME and have the bliss that they had in Valinor.
Just like the Númenóreans:
To which they answered: 'You know that he has a fate apart, and was adjudged to the Firstborn who die not; yet this also is his doom that he can never return again to mortal lands. Whereas you and your people are not of the Firstborn, but are mortal Men as Ilúvatar made you. Yet it seems that you desire now to have the good of both kindreds, to sail to Valinor when you will, and to return when you please to your homes.
It was not Sauron that gave them this feeling, it was Melkor and his marring of Arda.

[Gothmog]

This is where you're wrong. Have you not seen my quotes: Yes I have seen your quotes. You are Quoting from:
Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed = Myth's Changed .
I am Quoting from the Silmarillion - Myth's Unchanged .

[Maedhros]

Using the power of Semantics are we. Well, I won't do that.
The other side has done a pretty good job of establishing that it was Sauron that deceived the elves in Eregion with the Rings, and in part it is true, but to find the real answer to the matter one has to dig deeper into the world of Tolkien.
Why were the elves there in the first place. The people of Celebrimbor (Noldor), were part of the exiles of Valinor by the lies of Melkor. They had an inherente fault and it was their pride which was awakened by the lies of Melkor.
They were at odds with themselves, while wanting to remain in ME, they wanted to have the things that they had in Valinor. This desire in itself was not put up by Sauron. It is said that Sauron deceived the elves (Celebrimbor), but I wonder, didn't the elves deceived themselves. Even with our without the rings, they were destined to go beyond the seas, why? because their kingdoms in ME could never be as those in the Blessed Realm for the mere fact that ME was tainted by the influence of Melkor and the only place in Arda that was free of it was the Blessed Realm. Sauron, a mere maia, couldn't change this fact, he couldn't out do the deeds of his mentor Melkor.
So you see, Sauron did in fact influenced the Elves but he could because they were already under the influence of his master Melkor.

[Turgon]

Good Maedhros, I'm afraid your quotes from Morgoth's Ring fall a wide of the mark, I find myself in agreement with Gothmog on this. Is this 'evidence' a part of the 'established' Tolkien mythos? i.e. that which we percieve as being the final Silmarillion - worthy speculations indeed - but these sources are too conflicting. See Tolkien's essays in Myths Transformed regarding the Sun and Moon and indeed the whole cosmology of Arda - hardly in keeping with the story told in the Silmarillion.

'The Making of the Sun and Moon must occur long before the coming of the elves; and cannot be made to be after the death of The Two Trees - if that occured in any connextion with the sojourn of the Noldor in Tirion. The time allowed is too short. Neither could there be woods or flowers &c. on earth, if there had been no light since the overthrow of the Lamps!'

This is not the Silmarillion as we know it... in fact these essays throw all the early history of Arda into confusion and must be discarded from this debate. How does the above quote sit with the established story of the destruction of The Two Trees, or for that matter the glory and greatness of the Silmarils? The jewels which are the focus of the tale? Tolkien also speculated that the Star of Eärendil couldn't really be the light of a Silmaril... as for the Darkening of Valinor?!? What Darkening? Surely the sun was shining in the skies above, what's all this fuss about the Trees and the shiny little jewels? You see the problem? Which version has precedence?

The Long Defeat

In the final reckoning between Melkor and Sauron one thing becomes apparent: all of Melkor's evil and malice redounded to the greater glory of the Eldar. 'The deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda.' and so it proved for many ages. Yet Sauron's effect upon the Eldar was more telling - it was he who saw the Prophecy of the North brought to it's terrible conclusion, not his master.

It was due to Sauron's work that elves found themselves leaving Middle-Earth, those that remained behind fading into a fairy tale folk, forgotten by the world of men - the greatest evil that could befall them - In later ages was the Noldolantë still sung? Were the names of Fingolfin and Finrod, Turgon and Ecthelion still praised throughout the lands? No... they had been forgotten - Sauron's victory was complete. Melkor brought glory to the Eldar - Sauron extinguished their legacy for all time.

'But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago...'

[Gothmog]

The power of Semantics? Not at all, I am just pointing out that we are using two different versions of what happened to Melkor.

Why were the elves there in the first place. The people of Celebrimbor (Noldor), were part of the exiles of Valinor by the lies of Melkor. They had an inherente fault and it was their pride which was awakened by the lies of Melkor. This is an interesting point. Why indeed were the Elves in Middle-earth? And more how many of them were 'Exiles from Aman'?They were at odds with themselves, while wanting to remain in ME, they wanted to have the things that they had in Valinor. This desire in itself was not put up by Sauron. Why did they want to stay in Middle-earth while having that which they had in Valinor?

Well let us have a look. The Quendi were in fact in Middle-earth because that is where Eru placed them before they awoke. The Valar persuaded them to move and tried to get All of the Quendi to forsake the lands of their awakening to go to Aman. Not all left Middle-earth and many remained throughout the lands from Cuiviénen to the shores of Beleriand. It was the Exiles who wanted the 'Best of Both Worlds' the rest wanted only to remain in their homes. The majority of the Elves left in Middle-earth were Moriquendi and therefore could not desire what they had in Aman as they had never been there. As for the Exiles, if they had not been persuaded to leave Middle-earth far too soon by the Valar then this problem would not have come up. I agree that this desire was not put there by Sauron but neither was it put there by Melkor! It came about bacause of the misguided actions of the Valar. Melkor and Sauron Both used it for their own perposes.It is said that Sauron deceived the elves (Celebrimbor), but I wonder, didn't the elves deceived themselves. The Elves wanted to remain in Middle-earth. Sauron showed them how this could be accumplished be the creation of 'Rings of Power' which gave them hope. He then destroyed that hope utterly by forging the One Ring.Even with our without the rings, they were destined to go beyond the seas, why? because their kingdoms in ME could never be as those in the Blessed Realm for the mere fact that ME was tainted by the influence of Melkor and the only place in Arda that was free of it was the Blessed Realm. The Elves were destined to fade. But even as Ulmo spoke, and while the Ainur were yet gazing upon this vision, it was taken away and hidden from their sight; and it seemed to them that in that moment they perceived a new thing, Darkness, which they had not known before except in thought. But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away. And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; where fore, though the music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages of the ending of the World. The Music of the Ainur
This is from before Arda existed.Sauron, a mere maia, couldn't change this fact, he couldn't out do the deeds of his mentor Melkor. So Sauron could not change this fact. For Two Ages after the Rings of Power were made the Elves (including the Exiles from Aman) were happily living in Middle-earth without becoming weary of the world. When the One Ring was un-made and the rest of the Rings lost their powers, the Quendi (including those who had never been to Aman or even to Beleriand) wearied of the world and sailed into the West. This seems to indicate that Sauron could indeed "Change this fact" and did so.

[Maedhros]

Is this 'evidence' a part of the 'established' Tolkien mythos? i.e. that which we percieve as being the final Silmarillion - worthy speculations indeed - but these sources are too conflicting.
Being the "final Silmarillion". It was my conception that the published sil was edited by his son Christopher and not a finished work of JRRT, like the Hobbit or LOTR. There are some discrepancies that exist in the publish Sil that Christopher now, with more time to review his work would have changed if he made it again. An example of this is: The parentage of Gil-Galad.
From the Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor:
Since Finduilas remained without correction in the last of the genealogies as the daughter of Arothir, she became the sister of Gil-galad.
There can be no doubt that this was my father's last word on this subject; It would nonetheless have been very much better to have left Gil-galad's parentage obscure.
Much closer analysis of the admittedly extremely complex material than I had made twenty years ago makes it clear that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon (see XI.56, 243) was an ephemeral idea.
Can it be that there is none "perceived final Silmarillion" as the Hidden King suggest.
But don't worry, in this case there is no misconception or contradicion. In the published Sil, we see Melkor and his machinations in Arda, but in Myth's transformed we go behind the scenes if you will, as to his motivations and his rationale of doing things. In the publish Sil, we see that Melkor "wasted" his power in ME, in Myth's Transformed gives to us exactly how he "wasted" his powers.
The majority of the Elves left in Middle-earth were Moriquendi and therefore could not desire what they had in Aman as they had never been there.
Are you sure?
From The Return of the King: Durin's Folk
But when King Elessar gave up his life Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over Sea.
Do you see now, Legolas a Moriquendi had that desire in his heart too.
It was due to Sauron's work that elves found themselves leaving Middle-Earth, those that remained behind fading into a fairy tale folk, forgotten by the world of men
No, it was foretold in the Music of the Ainur that Men would inherit the earth. It was the desire of both types of elves that they had a "desire" in their hearts for Aman. It was not brought up by Sauron, it was already there. Regardless of the rings or not, they were destined to go to the west. The west (Aman) was the only place that was not affected by Melkor's influence, and the only place that they could find rest from the weariness of the world.
The Elves wanted to remain in Middle-earth. Sauron showed them how this could be accumplished be the creation of 'Rings of Power' which gave them hope. He then destroyed that hope utterly by forging the One Ring.
One thing about theories, is that they have to support all "attacks". My question is this: Did all of the Elven Kings in ME had a ring that made the elves remained in ME?
If I seem to remember correctly,
From the Return of the King: Appendix B The Tale of Years
In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward and some established realms in the forests far away where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these.
It seems to me that Thranduil remained all of these time in ME without an "elven ring of power". He had no ring and still he endured all of that time. So, with this I prove that "Elven Rings of Power" were unnecessary to Elves that wanted to stay in ME, and establish that no matter what happened, the elven rings were not necessary in the staying of the Quendi in ME and that eventually the Elves would go into the west because of their inherent desire in their hearts. Yes, even those of the Moriquendi that had never been in Aman.

[Maedhros]

The Hidden King is clever, but he forgot to quote something from the manuscript that he quotes:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed II
This is a text of a most problematic nature, a manuscript in ink that falls into two parts which are plainly very closely associated: a discussion, with proposals for the 'regeneration' of the mythology; and an abandoned narrative. Neither has title or heading.
Definitely, the works of JRRT underwent great changes, and not all of the changes were accepted or pass onto the new versions. There are plenty of proposals that were not accepted. This is one of such.
In the other hand:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed VII
This essay is found in two forms. The earlier ('A') is a fairly brief text of four pages in manuscript, titled 'Some notes on the "philosophy" of the Silmarillion' it is rapidly expressed and does not have a clear ending. The second ('B') is a greatly expanded version of twelve pages, also in manuscript, of far more careful expression and beginning in fine script
This, unlike the one that the Hidden King quoted are different things. The first is unnamed and the second is named and it relates to the philosophy of the Silmarillion. It gives us his "Philosophy" behind the Sil, and has no contradictions with his work on the Sil.

[Gothmog]

quote:

The majority of the Elves left in Middle-earth were Moriquendi and therefore could not desire what they had in Aman as they had never been there.


Are you sure?
From The Return of the King: Durin's Folk
quote:

But when King Elessar gave up his life Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over Sea.


Do you see now, Legolas a Moriquendi had that desire in his heart too.
The Moriquendi could not desire what they had in Aman as they had nothing in Aman. As for the desire in the hearts of the Moriquendi this did not come from Melkor but from the misguided actions of the Valar.These were the three kindreds of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Trees are called the Calaquendi, Elves of the Light. But others of the Eldar there were who set out indeed upon the westward march, but became lost upon the long road, or turned aside, or lingered on the shores of Middle-earth; and these were for the most part of the kindred of the Teleri, as is told hereafter. They dwelt by the sea, or wandered in the woods and mountains of the world, yet their hearts were turned towards the West . Those Elves the Calaquendi call the Ûmanyar, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm ; but the Ûmanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon. The Silmarillion. Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor.

And again

The kinsfolk and friends of Elwë Singollo also remained in the Hither Lands, seeking him yet, though they would fain have departed to Valinor and the light of the Trees, if Ulmo and Olwë had been willing to tarry longer. But Olwë would be gone; and at last the main host of the Teleri embarked upon the isle, and Ulmo drew them far away. Then the friends of Elwë were left behind; and they called themselves Eglath, the forsaken People. They dwelt in the woods and hills of Beleriand, rather than by the sea, which filled them with sorrow; but the desire of Aman was ever in their hearts . The Silmarillion. Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor.

So the Valar put that into their hearts.

As for Legolas following the desire of his heart, if we take a look at what happened to him we find that he recieved a warning.

Message to Legolas from Galadriel

Legolas Greenleaf long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.'

TTT: the White Rider.

And later He says this about it.
'Look!' he cried. 'Gulls! They are flying far inland. A wonder they are to me and a trouble to my heart. Never in all my life had I met them, until we came to Pelargir, and there I heard them crying in the air as we rode to the battle of the ships. Then I stood still, forgetting war in Middle-earth; for their wailing voices spoke to me of the Sea. The Sea! Alas! I have not yet beheld it. But deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing, which it is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm.' RotK: The Last Debate.

It seems to me that Thranduil remained all of these time in ME without an "elven ring of power". He had no ring and still he endured all of that time. So, with this I prove that "Elven Rings of Power" were unnecessary to Elves that wanted to stay in ME, and establish that no matter what happened, the elven rings were not necessary in the staying of the Quendi in ME and that eventually the Elves would go into the west because of their inherent desire in their hearts. Yes, even those of the Moriquendi that had never been in Aman.
Yes it was because of an inherant desire put into their hearts by the Valar. but the effect of the Rings cannot be discounted.
Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and song of those times. With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth; and among them, filled with a sadness that was yet blessed and without bitterness, rode Sam, and Frodo, and Bilbo, and the Elves delighted to honour them. RotK: The Grey Havens.

So thoses who remained in Middle-earth because of the Rings could no longer do so. This is Sauron's work.

[Maedhros]

The Moriquendi could not desire what they had in Aman as they had nothing in Aman. As for the desire in the hearts of the Moriquendi this did not come from Melkor but from the misguided actions of the Valar.
They desired to be with the Valar. It was there before Sauron.
So thoses who remained in Middle-earth because of the Rings could no longer do so. This is Sauron's work.
So, because of the Ring os Sauron who left ME, Elrond and Galadriel. Two Quendi and their following. And what about the Majority of the Quendi then. What about the Sindar. What about Thraduil's people. They stayed in ME and had nothing to do with the rings of Sauron.
All of the elves had that desire to go into the west, it doesn't matter how they got it, they just did.
Regardless of Sauron's rings, the majority of the elves would have eventually left to the Seas and the majority of the elves that remained in the second and third age were not ruled by elves with rings of power and yet they stayed. So, the rings only affected a small percentage of the elves in those ages.
After all, Melkor's influence in ME was still there after the rings was destroyed and that is why the only place where elves would not feel the effect of weariness was the Blessed Realm.

[Grond]

The debate is officially ended. I will be rereading the debate in its entirety and opening a thread for people to vote on who they thought won.

I will also see if Aragil, Parrot and Cian will help judge. Look for the new thread in this guild section.