Myth or fact?

[Nenya Evenstar]

I have heard that "The Silmarillion" is the only book that is the true history of ME and that "Unfinished Tales" and books like it are just stories that Tolkien wrote not meaning for them to be fact in his world. Is this true, or are books like "Unfinished Tales" really ME history?

[aragil]

Howdy, partner!

The sad truth is, there ain't no such thing as 'Middle-Earth fact'. I like to think of them as mythic, in the sense of the ancient Greek myths. That being said, UT and HoME will probably destroy somewhat the sense of myth, as they contain multiple story lines, etc.- all testament to the writing process by the author. However, they are great reads, and some of the alternative storylines are every bit as interesting as what made it into the Silmarillion.

[aragil]

Well, there are 3 of us now, which corresponds to about half the population of the state. We could start an invasion, but I think that even with 6 we'd still be outnumbered by the British Army. We do outnumber the Austrians, though, so you'd better tow the line!

[ReadWryt]

Given any culture there will tend, because of Oral Tradition and Time, to be multiple versions of the same stories in their ancient lore. In fact, some stories will end up being re-tellings of some truely ancient event that has been brought up to date and attributed to some comparatively younger (a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand years old) individual, so the existence of so many drafts of the history of Middle-earth was inevitable to the extent that Tolkien proved himself to be the Cultural Anthropological equal to an entire People.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I have heard that "The Silmarillion" is the only book that is the true history of ME and that "Unfinished Tales" and books like it are just stories that Tolkien wrote not meaning for them to be fact in his world. Is this true, or are books like "Unfinished Tales" really ME history? Who knows? The fact of the matter is that we can't be sure what JRRT wanted to be included in the Silmarillion. The reason for this is that he never made a final compilation of the book. His son, Christopher Tolkien is the one who made those FINAL decisions.

Had JRRT lived and actually completed his works, who's to say what would have been in the Silmarillion proper anyway. A prime example of this is the Origins of Orcs. In the Silmarillion, as published, the clear indication is that Orcs are "distorted" Elves, twisted by the machinations of Melkor; yet, in HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, it is clear that the author's later writings would have sought to explain that Orcs were really made "in mockery" of Elves but out of Man-stock.

I take all the works for what I'm sure they were meant to be.... truly great story-telling. The only Middle-earth we know of as fully endorsed by the Author are his works written and published in his lifetime. All the rest is just gravy.

[Nenya Evenstar]

So, I take it that the general recommendation is:

Since Tolkien wrote all the works (even though he didn't compile them) I should read them just like I read the Silmarillion - as a history, even though they contain contradictions etc. because any history will have differences here and there.

aragil: You're the first person who's noticed that I'm from MT. Go Montanans!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Walter:

I think I'll just take your advice and read them all.

BTW, I'm now beginning to think that I ought to read all of Tolkiens works ME related or not. I think that I would enjoy them and, in the long run, I bet that they would enrich my understanding of Middle Earth.

[Parrot]

Welcome aboard Nenya Evenstar! Anybody gives you any trouble, just let me know! and I'll let Aragil know and he'll take care of 'em!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Hello, and thanks Parrot! I'll keep that in mind... everyone had better watch out for the League of Montanans!

Walter: LOL, or maybe not. I'm not at all familiar with those works so I don't know what to think of that comment. Either you're being sarcastic (which is highly probable) or serious. So, what I meant was that by reading other works by Tolkien I would gain a greater understanding of Tolkien as a writer which would then rub off on his ME works because I would be more familiar with the author himself. That idea was spurred on by your quote from "On Fairy-stories".

[aragil]

I think 'Leaf by Niggle' is widely considered to parallel Tolkien's own artistry in creating Middle-earth. Funny thing is, while Tolkien hated allegory one of the themes in Leaf by Niggle was (IMO) the revelation of truth from art. Hmmm.

ps. Nenya and Parrot- I can't help but notice that you two live in 'Montana', while I live in 'The beautiful state of Montana'. This leads me to believe you two are east-siders. Heh-heh.

[Brent]

They're true myths in the old Anglo-Saxon tradition (though I'm sure the old Prof T would say English (Welch) tradition 'cos thats why he wrote them) so there is no strict truth, these are the storys told by the skald round the great fire in the Mead hall at the end of feastings. Pick the version you like best.

I think its Sir Thomas Mallory, naughty 15th century knight, who ends his Morte D'Arthur with something like "some men say that Arthur is not dead and will return again, I do not say this, but the men say this are many and that is why they name him Arthur, the once and future King".

[Nenya Evenstar]

Walter:

Yeah, I kind of thought that you weren't always to be taken seriously, and that's why I wasn't sure about your post... LOL - maybe I was stereotyping because of your personal icon... :D

Well, looks like I'm going to be reading a lot in the next few months. I've got a lot of Tolkien literature to read now. BTW, does anyone know where I can find a list of all Tolkiens works? And, if anyone wants to they can tell me which ones are worth my time, what order to read them in, etc.

Brent:

This is such new ground for me! I've grown up thinking that "The Sil." was the only other ME book that I could read and believe that it happend in ME, but now I find that I'm going to have to greatly expand my ME History knowledge... I really like it how there are more than one version of different stories. Perhaps Tolkien did that one purpose to make his world even more life-like? Just a thought.

[Maedhros]

And, if anyone wants to they can tell me which ones are worth my time, what order to read them in, etc.
Well Nenya, by a rule, every book with the name JRRT is worth your time and should be read. Plain and simple.
As to the order it depends.
I personally, (In the process of reading home) have begun with volumes X which i finished, I'm reading volume XI (finished the wanderings of Húrin), then I'm going to volume XII.
Then I will go to the earliest of his works in BOLT and my way throught Volume IX, but that's just my personal preference.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Aragil:

More or less so, yes. But however, MT is still beautiful over here too. So beautiful that we "Easterners" do not have to let everyone know about it - it's just fact. :D That's why we do not mention it. :D

BTW, Walter, I just may have to consider changing the name of the thread...

[Nenya Evenstar]

Maedhros:

BOLT? Please forgive my ingnorance, but I am only familiar with Unfinished Tales, and History of Middle Earth.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Maedhros:

BOLT? Please forgive my ingnorance, but I am only familiar with Unfinished Tales, and History of Middle Earth. I will clarify for you Nenya. BOLT is the Book of Lost Tales Parts 1 and 2. They comprise the first and second volume of the HoMe (History of Middle-earth) series.

And it's easier for me to direct you to a website that type out all of his works so here's a link.

http://www.luthien-tinuviel.net/books.htm

If you have any questions on any of the books, please ask here. I've read all but a few and I'm sure there are others here who have read all of them. BTW, one of my favorites was one no one has mentioned yet..... Farmer Giles of Ham. I would definately endorse it as it also has a Middle-earth mystique about it.

Good reading!

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter


Those works of Tolkien which can be considered fantasy related should be rather complete at our TolkienWiki: TolkienBooks (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?TolkienBooks), if you are interested in his works as a scholar there is a detailed list in the appendix of Carpenters Bio (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?JRR__Tolkien-A__Biography). If you don't have that and would like a list of those works just let me know... Actually you can view of all of Tolkien's known works on this website.

http://www.forodrim.org/arda/tbchron.html

Hope this helps guide your path Nenya. :)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks guys! :) Looks like I've got my reading schedule planned out for the next year or so. But it's Tolkien, so it should be great!

[ReadWryt]

...and it doesn't really matter where in the History of Middle-earth you start reading, I mean if some of the books aren't available to you right away. I didn't pay much attention to anything but The Hobbit, LotR and The Simarillion from the History until recently...in fact outside of The Guide to Middle Earth I hadn't really read a lot outside of his Fiction. But I started with "Sauron Defeated" and reading all the drafts of The Scouring of the Shire hooked me, that and I was devouring "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" at a tremendous rate...Since then I've read nearly all of the books edited from his earlier writings..("nearly" because I just cannot get myself excited over "The Lays of Belariand"...sooooo many stanzas!)...and I never had to "make" myself read them or come up with a reason. (Truth to be told I didn't get my hands on "Sauron Defeated" and "The Letters" untill about a week before this forum went back up a little over a year ago, so I read many of these books concurrently)

[Parrot]

Hey, how did this thread get off-topic and back to TOLKIEN? Sorry Aragil, even further west than you, but "Beautiful State of Montana" just seems a little redundant, don't you think? Besides I think of the cautionary lyrics of "Last Resort" by The Eagles when advertising Montana:
They called it Paradise, I don't know why,
Call someplace Paradise - Kiss it goodbye

[Grond]

Well, this is really off point Parrot but.... my state is commonly referred to as "The Sportsman's Paradise" (as a matter of fact, it is on my license plate). I guess we're screwed. :)

[Parrot]

Sportsman’s Paradise? Yeah, that’s trouble alright. That would explain the exhausting schedule of golf and tennis though; state law or something?

[Lhunithiliel]

Nenya, I had the same problem - what of Tolkien other works to start with reading... I at first felt(and still do!) so confused !
Here is what I did - I chose the story as told in the three main books as a base and the things or/and characters and/or events that interested me most, I looked for the relevant story in the other works. I did this with the Tale of Turin Turambar (as this is my favourite!) and I was greatly satisfied. Now I think I know every detail from this story, although I have found some differences...
Maybe this "strategy" will help you.
And - YES! - there is so MUCH left to be read!

Guys, you that have read every written work BY and ABOUT Tolkien, how long did it take you?
Sometimes I fear I'll need a whole life! :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks a bunch Lhunithiliel! I really like the sound of your strategy, and I am going to try it. I do feel overwhelmed, especially since I do not have access to very many of the books, and yet I want to read them all so badly because I feel like I'll miss something very important if I don't! And then I feel overwhelmed because I do have so many books to read and not enough time. Why does the rest of the world have to still turn when Tolkien is in the picture?