View Full Version : Were Merry and Pippin clown?
Kavrangoz
08-21-2002, 10:54 PM
Were Merry and Pippin clown or am i stupid.Yes they may be funny
hobbits but i don't think that they are clown(Like in the movie)OOft hope is born,when is forlorn.
ReadWryt
08-22-2002, 05:41 AM
...I've taken to calling them R2 and 3P0 because that's about all they were in the movie...drones for comedic purpose. Otherwise I suppose they will be a HECK of a lot more serious in the next movie. I guess that the argument could be made that it would more dramatically show their emotional growth through the adventure to make them more immature and lighthearted early on and have them become the brave and noble Hobbits we love by the end of the story...
No they're not clowns, it's the film that is stupid for making them out to be clowns.
They were bright enough to know almost before he did that Frodo would leave the Shire, and to decide they would go with him.
The meeting in the field is as silly as the exploding rocket incident,
the sword practice on Caradhras is almost as bad,
and things have not improved much when Pippin sends a whole lot of stuff crashing down the well instead of just a stone that goes "plonk".
Talimon
08-27-2002, 04:36 AM
It's sad that you can't appreciate the sword-fighting scene. It's leaves me wondering what book you read. The book wasn't as dark as you make it out to be.
Originally posted by Talimon
It's sad that you can't appreciate the sword-fighting scene. It's leaves me wondering what book you read. The book wasn't as dark as you make it out to be.
It's not bad, it's just a waste of time, which PJ is supposed to be so short of.
I read The Lord of The Rings by JRR Tolkien.
I've not made out the book to be dark or anything else.
There are plenty of light moments in it which PJ was free to use-
the problem is that when he uses his own light moments instead they always turn out to be silly and out of character- check the number of people here who say they laugh at the ones that are set at serious events.
Originally posted by Confusticated
If it hadn't been for the little sparring scene, is this what Boromir would have looked like in the movie?
We meet Boromir, he is questioning Aragorn.....next Boromir is dead
I don't know, is it what he would have looked like?
What are you getting at?!
BTW The Frodo falls- F drops ring- Boromir finds it- Aragorn says give it back- B ruffles F's hair scene is another addition that's way out of not only character but story. If he had actually got not only sight but hold of the ring he couldn't have handed it back like that- look what happened when Gimli Gandalf and Galadriel got near it.
Originally posted by Confusticated
Well I was joking a bit, but all the same getting at the point that Boromir's little sparring game was the major thing to add friendliness to his charactor in the movie, in my eyes. It was also something that made him seem to fit in as a true member of the fellowship.
Fine, emphasis Boromir's friendliness, but why not with something from Tolkien?- there's plenty from him to do just that.
He didn't look any more out of place in the fellowship before the sword practice than any of the others.
Gimli had hardly been noticed at all- should there have been an extra scene to his establish- what?- his cuddliness, maybe?
And maybe Legolas needed more elfishness?
I could go on.....
(In case you hadn't guessed, I'm joking a bit also)
Diamond Took
09-08-2002, 10:57 AM
i think pippin and merry were perfect. just how i'd imagined them in the book. :)
Originally posted by Diamond Took
i think pippin and merry were perfect. just how i'd imagined them in the book. :)
Where did you see, or imagine, them in the book with their faces covered in soot and smoke?
Diamond Took
09-09-2002, 02:05 AM
Where did you see, or imagine, them in the book with their faces covered in soot and smoke?
where do you see them in the movie splashing bath water all over the floor of crickhollow?
lol, It was funny, wasn't it! cracked me up. those hobbits are so cute and funny, in the book and in the movie. :) especially pippin.:D :D :D
Talimon
09-09-2002, 05:37 AM
Yeah, joxy, seriously though. I think your view of Pippin being a "mature adult" don't stand well in light of the the events at Crickhollow. I'm not saying he was a complete clown, because he wasn't. But I don't see his portrayal in the movie as being completely clownish either.
Diamond Took
09-09-2002, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Talimon
Yeah, joxy, seriously though. I think your view of Pippin being a "mature adult" don't stand well in light of the the events at Crickhollow. I'm not saying he was a complete clown, because he wasn't. But I don't see his portrayal in the movie as being completely clownish either.
That I agree with Talmon.
you see some aspects of Pippin's serious behaviour in the scenes like the Black Riders, and Borimir's death for example.
Maybe though it is a little too early in the film trilogy to go judging wether or no Pippin and Merry are as 'clowninsh' as was said.:p :)
In Flames
09-09-2002, 09:40 AM
I think RW is right, im sure that Merry & Pippin will "grow up" during the trilogy.
And i don't think they will be very clowny while being dragged around and beaten by the orcs.
Originally posted by Talimon
Yeah, joxy, seriously though. I think your view of Pippin being a "mature adult" don't stand well in light of the the events at Crickhollow. I'm not saying he was a complete clown, because he wasn't. But I don't see his portrayal in the movie as being completely clownish either.
The Crickhollow thing seems to be a diference of cultures. In the UK it is quite common for grown men to play around in a communal bath- don't your games players have them?!
Letting off fireworks in a tent and getting sooty is a different matter!
I'm not saying "complete" either, far from it- the problem is that the "comic" episodes clash so badly with the rest of their appearances.
Particularly, as they are being carried off at the end by the orcs they are allowed to be the way they should be, at last!
Originally posted by In Flames
I think RW is right, im sure that Merry & Pippin will "grow up" during the trilogy. And i don't think they will be very clowny while being dragged around and beaten by the orcs.
They shouldn't be "growing up" in the sense of changing from children to adults; they mature of course, a different matter.
And you're quite right, at the end when they are captured they are allowed to behave and look the way they should. They show some of that in earlier scenes of course, but it is spoilt by the childish scenes that get mixed up with those scenes.
Talimon
09-09-2002, 09:19 PM
Joxy, I'm not so sure about that "difference in cultures". Look at the way Tolkien portrayed the other races and charachters. Can you really imagine Boromir and his friends splashing water all over the place while bathing? Or even Gimili for that matter? I'm not saying I have anything against doing so (quite the opposite, actually :)), but if indeed this is a difference in cultures then Tolkien's men, elves, and dwarfs didn't embody this charachteristic.
The whole point I'm making is that the Hobbits were "lighter and merrier" then the other races, and Mery & Pippin were moreso then Frodo and Sam. Which, taken proportionately, comes across in the movie.
Originally posted by Talimon
Joxy, I'm not so sure about that "difference in cultures"
A misunderstanding here; I meant a difference between the UK and the USA. There was this suggestion that the Crickhollow bath scene somehow meant they hobbits were childish; it wouldn't have meant that here as plenty of mature grown men do it; I therefore guessed that this was an example where UK standards of behaviour differed from those in the USA. Not a criticism, just a detail- chacun a son gout!
And yes I CAN imagine B and his (close) friends doing the communal bath thing- and I agree with you it's a good idea!
Again yes, of course the hobbits are lighter and merrier, but they are NOT childish or clownish, in the sense of setting off fireworks inside a tent.
Diamond Took
09-10-2002, 09:22 AM
oh joxy! please stop your petty excuses!:rolleyes:
the point is, pippin and merry sure had thier flaws in the movie, but they did in the books as well.
Originally posted by Diamond Took
oh joxy! please stop your petty excuses!....
the point is, pippin and merry sure had thier flaws in the movie, but they did in the books as well.
Excuses, what excuses? I don't see any! :-)
Letting off fireworks under cover and breaking carrots could qualify for the word "flaws" in the film. Your turn to give two from the books!
Diamond Took
09-11-2002, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by joxy
Excuses, what excuses? I don't see any! :-)
Letting off fireworks under cover and breaking carrots could qualify for the word "flaws" in the film. Your turn to give two from the books!
sitting down smoking when the others enter orthanc and splashing water all over the floor of crickhollow, amongst others.
flaws are what you make them. personally i think the hobbits were just as goon in both PJ and Tolkien's interpretations.
Originally posted by Diamond Took
sitting down smoking when the others enter orthanc and splashing water all over the floor of crickhollow, amongst others.
flaws are what you make them. personally i think the hobbits were just as goon in both PJ and Tolkien's interpretations.
Smoking was a normal adult habit among hobbits.
Splashing in the communal bath is a normal adult piece of behaviour,
certainly in the UK, and I have had it confirmed by others also in the USA.
I don't know what goon means as an adjective, but I am sure hobbits were not it in either version!
Talimon
09-11-2002, 03:44 AM
In regards to the "splashing" issue, I can tell you with certainty that the vast majority of adult males in the USA would not necessarily be considered "mature" if they were found splashing water all over the floors of thier bathrooms. With due respect I am not well accustomed with the UK and it's customs, but even so I do not feel that Tolkiens showing them splashing around was meant to be just normal procedure. Maybe that scene gets different reactions in different countries, but from what I can tell it was meant to make you laugh.
By the way, do not get the impression that I am arguing that the movie and book Pippin were alike. I accept, acknowledge, and support the fact they are different. I do not mark it against the movie at all, and in fact have seen numerous reviews by fans saying that Merry and Pippin were exactly as they remembered them. I am not saying they were, but what is proven is that here (as in other places) PJ has managed to portray the book in such a way so that it tells the tale in a very similar way, as far as most fans are concerned. I think personally I am something of an exception, in that I acknowlege most or all of the differences yet still love the movie.
Originally posted by Talimon
In regards to the "splashing" issue, I can tell you with certainty that the vast majority of adult males in the USA would not necessarily be considered "mature" if they were found splashing water all over the floors of thier bathrooms. With due respect I am not well accustomed with the UK and it's customs, but even so I do not feel that Tolkiens showing them splashing around was meant to be just normal procedure. Maybe that scene gets different reactions in different countries, but from what I can tell it was meant to make you laugh.
I don't want to make a big deal of this but I didn't say "their" bathrooms, I said communal bathrooms. Don't you have changing rooms for sportsmen to bath in together after games? Don't a lot of Americans (if not the "vast majority") have some experience of communal sport and baths, in school, and long after it? They certainly do so in the UK, and they wouldn't appreciate being called immature for doing it!
The room set out as a bathroom at Crickhollow was that sort of thing in miniature, and the hobbit's behaviour, relaxing after a hard day, was just the sort of thing one might expect, and yes, for the reader to smile at.
Diamond Took
09-12-2002, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by joxy
I have had it confirmed by others also in the USA.
I don't know what goon means as an adjective, but I am sure hobbits were not it in either version!
Hey i'm not from the US!!!
and anyway, when jackson filmed the two hobbits letting off a firework, i guess he was just linking it with the modern-day youth (yep, these days they set of fireworks for fun, perhaps back then it was splashing around in a bathtub), and including gandalf's fireworks in the story to save time. Pippin and Merry were still in thier tweens at this time of the story.
Talimon
09-12-2002, 06:52 AM
I see we are talking about two different issues. The fact that they are actually bathing is completely fine and well. I have no issue with that, and it isn't funny at all. What's funny is that Pippin splashes around, and Merry's reaction to it. Go read the passage again if you don't remember what I am talking about. After reading through it, and seeing that Pippin has splashed much of his bath out onto the floor of the Crickhollow bathroom, I have trouble calling him "mature", at least by any traditional conotations.
Diamond Took
09-12-2002, 06:54 AM
oh yes.. and goon means silly; foolish.;) :p
Originally posted by Talimon
....seeing that Pippin has splashed much of his bath out onto the floor of the Crickhollow bathroom, I have trouble calling him "mature", at least by any traditional conotations.
There MUST be a difference of cultures here, between the UK and the US. Those guys I have been talking about, coming in from a football game, or in the case of the hobbits from a long day's walk, would splash around just as P&M do, and not have their maturity doubted for a minute. You use the word traditional, and that's just what that sort of behaviour is, like having cheer-leaders, or doing a Mexican wave. I thought the US had the same outlook; I must be wrong. Of course Tolkien spent most of his life in UK universities, which he would know are just the sort of places where sports guys behave that way- and he would certainly not have called his students immature because of it. Is Berkeley really "above" that sort of thing?!
Originally posted by Diamond Took
when jackson filmed the two hobbits letting off a firework, i guess he was just linking it with the modern-day youth (yep, these days they set of fireworks for fun....Pippin and Merry were still in thier tweens at this time of the story.
Actually there is a serious issue about the firework in the tent; many children are seriously and tragically injured by the misuse of fireworks, and there is a case for saying the film was irreponsible in showing that scene, which was a complete invention, not Tolkien. The major violence won't turn them into killers, but at a different level, that scene could give them a dangerous message.
One was almost out of his tweens, the other had passed 33.
Talimon
09-12-2002, 10:00 PM
Actually there is a serious issue about the firework in the tent; many children are seriously and tragically injured by the misuse of fireworks, and there is a case for saying the film was irreponsible in showing that scene, which was a complete invention, not Tolkien. The major violence won't turn them into killers, but at a different level, that scene could give them a dangerous message.
For pitty's sake, joxy. Let's not go over the edge here. ;)
Of course Tolkien spent most of his life in UK universities, which he would know are just the sort of places where sports guys behave that way- and he would certainly not have called his students immature because of it. Is Berkeley really "above" that sort of thing?!
Hardly, for better or worse. How can I say this... Pippins behavior, compared to Tolkiens other charachters, is much more light-hearted and naive. Hopefully we can agree on that much. Having said that, I don't think PJ took Pippins charachter in a wholly different direction then the book; he just exagerated it. Personally (and I'm sure there are different opinions regarding this) Pippin's maturity, or what there is of it, isn't so precious in my book. The general feel you get from him is that of being younger and lighter then the other Hobbits and charachters in general.
Originally posted by Talimon
For pitty's sake, joxy. Let's not go over the edge here. ;)....
Personally (and I'm sure there are different opinions regarding this) Pippin's maturity, or what there is of it, isn't so precious in my book.
Again it looks like a culture difference. In the UK over recent years the danger of fireworks has come to be taken much more seriously. Maybe in the USA that feeling is not (yet) so strong. A scene like the tent one would be most unlikely to appear in a TV programme here, and it occurred to me from the start that it was a pity that PJ chose this particular way of giving his (not Tolkien's) idea of M&P's immaturity. Children aren't likely to take to swiping off heads because of what they see in a film, but the general feeling here is that in scenarios they are more used to, such as fireworks displays, they shouldn't be shown ways of putting themselves and others into danger.
About the bath scene my only purpose in trying to establish that it isn't a sign of immaturity was to show that it was not, as another contributor suggested, a way in which Tolkien himself asserted their immaturity.
Ariana Undomiel
09-19-2002, 12:13 AM
OK, here is my opinion straight forward. I loved the characters of Merry and Pippin the film. I loved the accents that they had. I loved the stunts they pulled and the loyalties that they portrayed. They both had childlike qualities and adult qualities. They were not STUPID or CLOWNS. They both made me laugh and cry. I think that PJ did a good job with them and that the childlikeness that they portrayed in the first film will be changed throughout the next films as the realize the reality of what they have gotten themselves into.
~Ariana
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