Religion; The Root of all Evil?

[Ancalagon]

Open to all forum members;

The bible states somewhere that 'the love of money is the root of all evil', yet I would contest that and say; 'Religion is the root of all evil!'

What are your thoughts on religion? Does it divide or unite people? Is it man-made or is it from God? Is it the main source of conflict or a source for peace?

[Ancalagon]

Everyone is free to participate in this debate!

[Gothmog]

Before answering the question of this thread another question must be considered. What is the difference between 'Belief' and 'Religion'?

Belief is something that is personal and different for each person. This is true of every true follower of every religion and of every non-follower of ANY religion.

Belief becomes Religion when a group of people with similar beliefs come together and agree to a set of Codes of Conduct based upon the common points of their individual beliefs. These Codes will set limits on what they can do, think and believe. One person of this group or a small part of it will be given the job of 'Policeing' the rest to make sure all members conform to the basic rules.

So Belief may well come from "God" but Religion comes from Man.

Since it is from Man that we get "Religion" it will always be something that divides people. Any person that does not conform to views of the dictator of the religion is a threat. If that person is of a different religion as well then all of that group become a threat. Hence Religious wars fought for the Glory??? of some God who probably is not interested even if he/she exists.

[Dengen-Goroth]

Religion is the fundamental source of much of the suffering occuring within the world. And where we are now, I believe at least, is a culmination of many centuries of conflicts caused by religion. I agree with Gothmog's synopsis on the difference between belief and religion, and I believe belief can be replaced with faith and still keep the end result the same. Within history there have been to many cases in which man would, under the name of God, commit foul acts only to attain for him/herself a more indulgent life, or indeed misdriven by false faith. From Akhenaten's conversion of Egyptian Religion to monotheism, thus resulting in the end of the glory of the Egyptian Empire (Putting Ramses and the ptolemiac era aside) to the follys of the Crusades and even the act of claiming that if payment would be given to the church one would instantly reach heaven. Perhaps the root of all evil is in the end Man.

[Gothmog]

Yes Faith could be uesd in place of Belief as Faith is as personal as Belief.
If Man is the Root of all Evil he is also the Root of all Good.

A warrior came to the Zen master Hakuin and asked: "Is there such a thing as heaven and hell?"
Hakuin said: "Who are you?"
The warrior replied: "I am chief samuri to the emperor."
Hakuin said: "You, A samurai? With a face like that, you look more like a beggar."
At this the warrior became so angry he drew his sword.
Standing calmly in front of him, Hakuin said: "Here open the gates of hell."
Perceiving the master's composure, the soldier sheathed his sword and bowed.
Hakuin then said: "And here open the gates of heaven"

A Zen Koan

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Dengen-Goroth
Perhaps the root of all evil is in the end Man.

Close to the mark, Dengen, but not entirely true. Man has degenerated and is probably the cause of most of the world's problems, but it wasn't always that way. However, any problems in religion must be laid at his doorstep.

It has been said that more blood has been spilled in the name of religion than all wars put together. What a shame for people who claim to follow benevolent Gods to twist and turn their dogma to suit their own selfish needs and turn it for evil use. For that is what most of them have done. Despite major theological flaws, their was nothing evil or malevolent about Catholocism. However, some leaders in their greedy thirst for power and control abused their position and that is why we had the Dark Ages. Now some Islamic fundamentalists decided that they were right in interpreting the Koran just to suit their warped ideology.

Religion as man has interpreted it maybe evil, but the concept is not. With the exception of some occultic groups, nobody starts a religion for the use of evil. Religion has had many benefits to society when it has been used properly. So no, I don't believe that religion is the root of all evil. I would lean closer to Dengen's view that it is greedy, lustful and power hungry man who is the problem.

[Dengen-Goroth]

Well said Thorin! We had the "Dark" ages as a result of strict interpretation of the Bible, and the discredit of any scientific enquiries, most often not only through labeling the work heresy but also through the death of the author. One must often wonder how different things may have been had the Western Roman Empire remained and not fallen. But one question Thorin, you say we have degenerated, but when were we truly "good"?

[LadyGaladriel]

Belief and religon is the same thing .


Ive often pondered your question.



Religon is the bane and the saviour of our society . Religon cause trouble and yet religon is one of the base reasons that people elovoe and move on . Religon can cause wars and battles and has in the past has caused deaths an destrutions but this is not what religon is about. Religon is about belef and comfort and if there is a god (which I belive is the case) then why does he want us to suffer and hurt thy brother? Religon can also help people get on with their lives after misgivings and tradgeys . Its also the belief in the after live and this belief can save us all as people do not want to commit crimes and want to live as good people so that they can go to a better eternal life .
NOTE This belief was also manipulated by Bolsheviks because it was belived that people wouldnt rebel while they know that there was something good waiting for them
So in conclusion I belive that religon is the saviour and bane of our nation and generation because it causes and solves problems.

[Dengen-Goroth]

I'm a bit perplexed by that post LadyGaladriel. You claim that religion and belief are one and the same, I have to disagree, Gothmog said it best. Religion easing tensions? Perhaps if the "leaders" order their flock not to be cruel to each other. Perhaps faith is something that eases one's mind, but religion doesn't always. And I am curious as to what role the bolsheviks play in all of this, if you could elaborate.

[aragil]

Hmm, a little too deep for me. But allow me to present the work of a colleague in a related matter:

Well Known-
Women = Time * Money
Time = Money
Money = (Evil)^.5

From Simple Algebra-
Women = (Time=Money) * Money
Women = (Money)^2
Women = ( (Money)^2=((Evil)^.5)^2 )
Women = ((Evil)^.5)^2
Women = Evil

Very convincing, IMO!

[Rangerdave]

My personal belief is that while once a church grows so large that the priest (preacher, shaman, whathaveyou) can not identify by name every member of his or her congregation, the church has ceased to be religion and has moved into the secular world of politics.

This is the primary reason that I have always been against the Mega-Churches with thousands in the congregation, and worse still televangalism. This is not a congregation, its a concert. So hold your lighter high don't forget the t-shirt. You souldn't need a back-stage pass to see the parson.

RD

[LadyGaladriel]

I have religon

I have beliefs .


To have a religon is to have a belief.


The comparison between the Bolsheviks and modern religon is to show how beliefs / religon can be manipulatived by Goverment

[Dengen-Goroth]

But to have belief you do not need religion. Therefor they are not one and the same. I still do not see how the Bolsheviks "manipulated" religion, that is of what I asked clarification of.

[LadyGaladriel]

Sorry got confused . I think it was Nicholas second who encouraged religon because people were so badly treated. This way people would belive so much that if they are good and lead a plain simple life then they would go to enternal bliss.



Religon is just a lot of beliefs. Everyone has a sort of moral religon otherwise everyone would just kill ect everyone else.

[Gothmog]

I have beliefs.
I do not have Religion.
I do have a moral Code/Belief System.

Beliefs can be manipulated by others but Religion is more suseptable to this as it is a manmade system. As Dengen pointed out you can have belief without religion, you can even have Religion without Belief as many Con-artists have proven.

This is why some rulers have encouraged their pet religion on those they rule. 'The Divine Right of Kings' allows for much freedom of action.;)

[Dengen-Goroth]

Czar Nicholas II abdicated the throne, was procedded by an interim government which was months later overthrown by the Bolsheviks. He was not a Bolshevik. His monarchy was based on the Eastern Orthodox faith, and thus of course it was encouraged. But is was just so in nearly every monarchy, from Khufu to Henry V. People had that faith because when you are owned by the land and your life is filled with sorrow you can only look to the afterlife with hope, or so I believe.

[Ciryaher]

Religion is only evil when it is corrupted by greed and hatred. Hatred of those that are different and don't act like you want them to. Hatred of those who say different things and have different ideas. Greed is when a person tries to exploit a religion's followers for their own personal gain.

Religion itself provides moral structure...a direction for humanity to move in. To say that religion itself is evil is a misappropriation of responsiblity. Evil is the fault of Man, and true followers of a religion are the only people in the world who are working against the inherent evil around us.

[Gothmog]

So then, if you are not a true follower of a religion then you are Evil?

It is nice to know that I picked the right name on this site then:)

[LadyGaladriel]

He was not a Bolshevik

Thats pretty obivious . The bolsheviks (later called Communists) was first led by Lenin with Trotsky at his right hand. (although Trotsky was at first a Menshevik which was a main factor against him in the battle of Power between Stalin and Himself after Lenin croaked it.)



Tsar Nicholas encouraged Religon simply because


1) Russian people are very religous

2) He was surported by the church and called "The Little Father" He was surported until Bloody sunday when Father Gamilse (somthing weird like that) took a petition and masrched with Men , woman and Children to the Winter Palace and were met with Cossacks who slaughtered everyone of them. (Nicholas was actually on Holiday when this happened but obviously took the blame.) This was also a spark in the Revolution of 1912. Nicholas only got away with it because he had his army but when They turned against him (In 1920 I think) he was a goner *shrug*.

3) people wouldn't complain about their present life if they belived in an after life.

[Aerin]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was "Father George Gapon"; but I may be wrong.. my history (what history she taught...) didn't know anything about her subject.

As for the Bolsheviks eventually becoming the Communist Party, it was a whole lot more complicated than that. :rolleyes:

The Russian Orthodox Church (which was the main, if not only church in Russia) is very different from churches in America. The Orthodox Church requires many different practices and "rituals"; not that they are "more religious".

Bloody Sunday was when Father Gapon led the workers of the industrial factories in Russia in a peaceful march to the Winter Palace to ask the Tzar to listen to their request of better wages and what-not. The guards outside the Palace did mow them down; the snow surrounding the Palace was stained red from all the blood.
Tzar Nicholas indeed was not at the Palace; he had left several days earlier. Some say that he knew of the protest, so he left; others say he simply had business and left. (Again, my teacher last year did not know anything about what she was teaching... I have a lot of patch-up work to do in my schoolwork this year; thank goodness for homeschooling!)

For the religious asepct of this thread, I have to concur with Gothmog on the separation between religion and belief.

Originally posted by Gothmog
Since it is from Man that we get "Religion" it will always be something that divides people. Any person that does not conform to views of the dictator of the religion is a threat. If that person is of a different religion as well then all of that group become a threat. Hence Religious wars fought for the Glory??? of some God who probably is not interested even if he/she exists.

How many examples are there in even recent history of religion being used as a weapon?
To tie it into the Russian political parties, religion was banned when Stalin came into power. (The effect of that was to have the people worship Stalin....)

Religion is often a power base; at my church, the previous youth pastor seemed to be in his profession for his own glory. How many times did he preach to us about how we should always tythe (give 10% of the money we earn/are given to the church), he claimed he and his wife did... yet his mother bought him his sportscars and fancy toys...:rolleyes:

To put oneself in a position of status in a church or other religious organization is to give one enormous leverage and power. Not only do you have the power of your position, but you are also "on the side of God and therefore can do no wrong".
(An interesting sidenote: Stonewall Jackson, Lee's second-in-command in the Civil War, once sat on his horse after a particularly bloody battle, sucking on a lemon, and he said, "God has been good to us this day." If that's not twisting religion to one's own purposes, I don't know what is.)

And aragil, that's a mean equation! :p

[Gloer]

So are most political convictions. They are often based on faith rather than evidence.

[chrysophalax]

Through-out recorded history, religion, NOT faith has been the most easily misinterpreted,easily corrupted set of human systems ever put in place. When one (presumably the head of whatever religion/belief system) can dictate to another how he can and/or must experience his faith, the catalyst is born for trouble. What beliefs a person holds, no matter for worship, daily living in a society or within themselves, is one, if not THE most important thing to that particular person. No one can go through life without a belief in something .

Beliefs, unbeknownst to many, are essential to human growth. When those beliefs are twisted from their original intent, the result is catastrophic. You get the Holocaust, you get the Spanish Inquistion (whom no one expects, btw), you get the attack on the World Trade Center. When fanaticism replaces faith, religion as a force for centering that faith goes out the window. It then becomes evil.

IMO, religion in itself is not evil, only the way in which it can be twisted to become the antithesis of it's original purpose. to honour and worship whatever Higher Power serves as the basis for that given belief system.

[ltas]

"Religion is the opium for the masses."
(Hmm, I'm not sure if it was Marx or Engels who said that.)
However, I agree whole-heartedly with the statement.
Religious leaders have always persuaded people to submit themselves to tyrannical rulers and unbearable living conditions in the hope of redemption. In my opinion, religion, just like narcotic substances, is mostly used for self-deception.

[Arvedui]

I think Ciryaher's first sentence is to the point:
Religion is only evil when it is corrupted by greed and hatred

Religion in itself cannot be the root to all evil. All religions advertise peace. But some people try to twist the meaning of the words that form their preferred religion and by doing that, corrupts the religion. I wonder if anyone can find the word "Jihad" (Holy War) in the Koran? Or if anyone can find the reason for the Crusades or the Inquisition in the Bible?

And while I'm at it: Bolsjevism (or Communism) is not a religion but philosophy. The basis of philosophy is religion, and if I'm not wrong it all started when some Greeks tried to find the evidence for God's existence. I'm not sure if Socrates was the first philosopher or if there was one before him. I should have known, I'm sorry. No matter what, all of the later philosophers have continued from where he started. If you read a book called "Sophie's world" by Jostein Gaarder (Norwegian! author) I think you will find it reasonably explained there.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
Religion is only evil when it is corrupted by greed and hatred. Hatred of those that are different and don't act like you want them to. Hatred of those who say different things and have different ideas. Greed is when a person tries to exploit a religion's followers for their own personal gain.

Religion itself provides moral structure...a direction for humanity to move in. To say that religion itself is evil is a misappropriation of responsiblity. Evil is the fault of Man, and true followers of a religion are the only people in the world who are working against the inherent evil around us.

Hmmm, the main problem I have with many religions is that they tend to become 'boxes' that believers must fit inside. "If you believe in Christ, then you MUST do such and such..." Errrr -- why? Did Jesus really say you had to attend Church, believe in the Pope, etc.? Not in MY Bible, he didn't.

I am against the rigidity of most prominent religions -- not the religions themselves.

[LadyGaladriel]

ahh but the ten commandents says thto keep sabbeth holy ect ect

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by LadyGaladriel
I have religon

I have beliefs .


To have a religon is to have a belief.


The comparison between the Bolsheviks and modern religon is to show how beliefs / religon can be manipulatived by Goverment So then is Marxism the opiate of the people?

[Walter]

IMO Religion per se (the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power) is not evil.

But almost as old as religion itself, is the use and abuse of religion by single people or organizations as an instrument of power and politics. And as such it has proven more efficient at times, than other approaches to control and rule people. This is where the evil part comes into operation...

My personal conclusion is: A church (as an organization like the Catholic, Protestantic, Islamic, Jehovas witnesses or Scientology, etc.) has not got much to do with religion, except that it has always used and abused religion to control people in certain ways and for certain goals...

[Valinorean]

I say that we cannot assert a causal relationship between religion and evil, since evil has existed longer than religion. People were fighting and killing and stealing and committing adultery and enslaving each other long before the first monotheistic religion (Zoroastrian?) was created

[TheFool]

Originally posted by Arvedui
If you read a book called "Sophie's world" by Jostein Gaarder (Norwegian! author) I think you will find it reasonably explained there.

hehe would just like to say thanks, Arvedui for inspiring me to start reading this book; it has been sitting on the bookshelf for years, looking at me. Have read about 50 pages and I'm hooked. Maybe now I will also finish 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins, if I can find it again :cool:

p.s. where do things like sadism and slavery fit into this debate?Things that are evil and have nothing to do with religion. In this case can religion be called 'the root of all evil'.

I should be quicker at typing my posts ;)

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by LadyGaladriel
ahh but the ten commandents says thto keep sabbeth holy ect ect And what has this to do with going to church?

Originally posted by Valinorean
I say that we cannot assert a causal relationship between religion and evil, since evil has existed longer than religion. People were fighting and killing and stealing and committing adultery and enslaving each other long before the first monotheistic religion (Zoroastrian?) was created And before this there was no religion? Strange, I have always thought that there were many.

Originally posted by TheFool
p.s. where do things like sadism and slavery fit into this debate?Things that are evil and have nothing to do with religion. In this case can religion be called 'the root of all evil'. It is a valid question as such things have often been done in the name of religion.

[LadyGaladriel]

Originally posted by Gothmog
And what has this to do with going to church?


The church is part of the way people keep it sabbath so therefore , the church is a figurehead of Christanity . I sure somewhere Jesus built a church but could be wrong .



p.s Im a christian but I dont go to church because I dont think we have to go to a building when God is everywhere but I can however see it in the other Light that People want to go

[TheFool]

OK so taking sadism as an example (I will assume that religious beliefs have negligible influence on the enjoyment of causing pain): If a sadist operates in the name of religion, then isn't religion just an excuse? I am sure there are some sadistic atheists out there :( . If there were no religions would there still be sadists. I think yes. So the root of this problem is not religion. Why are there sadists?

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by LadyGaladriel
The church is part of the way people keep it sabbath so therefore , the church is a figurehead of Christanity . I sure somewhere Jesus built a church but could be wrong .



p.s Im a christian but I dont go to church because I dont think we have to go to a building when God is everywhere but I can however see it in the other Light that People want to go The privious post of yours that I quoted followed a post by Tyaronumen saying that you did not have to go to church. Your post gave the impression that you believed the opposite. Your explanation now shows that it was not meant in the way I took it. My appologies.

Originally posted by TheFool
OK so taking sadism as an example (I will assume that religious beliefs have negligible influence on the enjoyment of causing pain): If a sadist operates in the name of religion, then isn't religion just an excuse? I am sure there are some sadistic atheists out there . If there were no religions would there still be sadists. I think yes. So the root of this problem is not religion. Why are there sadists? The fact that some do indeed use religion for an excuse for their actions does not invalidate the question which is to find out by discusion of the various points whether religion is a major cause of such things. There have been many such things done in the name of religion not simply by a sadist or two but at the command of the highest ranks of that religion. The inquisition is just one that comes to mind immediately.

[TheFool]

Originally posted by Gothmog
The fact that some do indeed use religion for an excuse for their actions does not invalidate the question which is to find out by discusion of the various points whether religion is a major cause of such things. There have been many such things done in the name of religion not simply by a sadist or two but at the command of the highest ranks of that religion. The inquisition is just one that comes to mind immediately.

Yes but what I am trying to say is that IMHO sadism, as an example of evil, comes from something much more 'basic' than religious beliefs, and that Religion is not the cause of sadism, in the same way that it is not the cause of greed, or of love, or of the instinct for survival, etc.

[Gothmog]

Now we come to the point of the difference between “Religious Beliefs” and “Religion”. Religious Beliefs is a term used normally to describe the Faith of those who believe in a Supreme Being or Group of such Beings. Religion on the other hand is were Man tries to codify this Faith to control the direction of thought of the believers. This is as ‘basic’ as sadism. In both cases there is the same need of control and self-gratification.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Goroshimura
So then is Marxism the opiate of the people?

Any belief, when too firmly clutched to one's bosom, with no allowance for the flux of life, is an opiate.

[Ancalagon]

Thanks Talierin, I'd forgotten about this one until last night!