Arwen in TTT?

[Rasec]

How can Arwen be in TTT? I've read the book, and I dont see her there. Perhaps she is in the Silmarillion? I haven't read it yet, so it is possible. I saw a thread in another forum saying that she turns mortal in TTT. I am confused!
Please explain me that.

Cesar Filho.

[Anamatar IV]

i have absolutly no idea what u are talking about. Arwen is not even mentioned in the two towers.

[Gamil Zirak]

Arwen shows up at the end of RoTK and then in the appendix of RoTK. Your is either mistaken or pulling your leg.

[mr underhill]

you misunderstood he meant arwens in the movie!

[Ceorl]

Ah well just another effect of hollywood on the books we have come to love. They are cutting down the length already, but surely they wouldn't need to do something like that if they didn't fill it with genderal equality evidence.

[mr underhill]

i would be sad if there was no arwen.....
shes one of te great things of FOTR!

[Grond]

Arwen appears in the movie TT. She accompanies the Elves of Lorien and brings Aragorn Anduril. She also helps some of the displaced people in Rohan which is a sub-plot that does not exist in any form in the books. It should be noted that she had some extensive combat scenes that will not be included in the final cut because her "action acting" wasn't up to PJ's standards and didn't look good.

Some of the Helm's Deep sequences have had to be reshot because of this and is one reason PJ is back in NZ.

BTW... this thread should really be in the movie forum.

[Darth Saruman]

Yes. Sweet, sweet Arwen will be there.

In all of her glory.

[Beregond]

I also think I've seen Haldir in a still shot, is this true? Arwen at Helm's Deep, how ridiculous.

[Anamatar IV]

yes-arwen, haldir, the elves of lorien, and the men of gondor are all at helms deep.

[warrior of ice]

i think arwen is going to apear in ttt to continue with the love story of aragorn and arwen

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Grond
Arwen appears in the movie TT. She accompanies the Elves of Lorien and brings Aragorn Anduril. She also helps some of the displaced people in Rohan which is a sub-plot that does not exist in any form in the books. It should be noted that she had some extensive combat scenes that will not be included in the final cut because her "action acting" wasn't up to PJ's standards and didn't look good.

Some of the Helm's Deep sequences have had to be reshot because of this and is one reason PJ is back in NZ.

BTW... this thread should really be in the movie forum.

Grond, I thought you were more professional then that. Don't go spouting out rumors you can't back up. I know exactly where you heard that, or at least where that rumor originated, and it has been single-handedly denied by Richard Taylor, from Weta. Arwen isn't at Helm's Deep. The Elves are another story, but how they enter the scene remains to be seen. And if you are going to submit rumours, please make up your own. They will at least be original and more entertaining. Hopefully.

[Éomond]

Oh well, this gives you another excuse to see the movie!

[Ariana Undomiel]

Arwen is obviously going to be in The Two Towers film as has been seen in the trailer. How much or how her character will be changed, I don't know, but I think I won't mind as long as she doesn't have too major a role. Anyway, I can't wait to find out what surprises PJ and co have in wait for us.

~Ariana

[Talimon]

The current word around the campfire regarding Arwen is this:

She leaves Rivendell and heads to Lorien with Elrond and other Elves. They take the shards of Narsil with them. On the way to Lorien she begins to dream about Aragorn and the downfall of the west. Once she reaches it she asks Galadriel to look in the mirror. Looking in there she (and most importantly the audience) will see her whole relationship with Aragorn, in flashes. Then she'll see him standing in Helm's Deep and in grave danger (killed, perhaps?). Worried, she'll convince her father to send help. Thus Haldir goes with Elves to Helm's Deep. Arwen stays in Lorien until end of trilogy. He takes the shards of Narsil with him, and the standard. He dies in Helm's Deep, as do many of the Elves. Those who remain replace the role of the rangers in joining Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead. Another variation on this is that Arwen does head South, but only AFTER Helm's Deep. She presents the sword and the standard to Aragorn personally in Edoras.

This is all speculation, based on rumours and deductive logic. We know that Haldir is in Helm's Deep (can be seen on 10 minute preview). We know Arwen plays a role, and we know Elrond plays a role. We know the sword must somehow reach Edoras. You can make up any number of scenarios based on these facts.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
Thus Haldir goes with Elves to Helm's Deep. Arwen stays in Lorien until end of trilogy. He takes the shards of Narsil with him, and the standard. He dies in Helm's Deep, as do many of the Elves. Those who remain replace the role of the rangers in joining Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead.

Hmmm...I'm not cool on the elves replacing the rangers. I think that that part shows who exactly Aragorn is in the north...Look at it from a movie perspective: Butterbur tells Frodo that Aragorn is a ranger...whoop de do. What's a ranger? The book explains it. The movie does not. PJ could tie up that loose end by having the Rangers come down so the audience can get a better perspective...Rumor, yes. I'll wait.

I like the first idea of the elves bringing the sword down at Arwen's request, rather than having her come down herself...It still all bother's me, though.

[Talimon]

I'm still wondering just why the Elves are heading to Helm's Deep to begin with... I'm wondering what PJ will do with that. I can guess that it might tie in with the Elves deminishing, but who knows. Maybe it will be for dramas sake (Haldir dying, etc.). Note that we should see more of Haldir in the Extended Edition, as the scene with Gimili refusing to be blinded is supposedly in. That might make his death in TTT more emotional. Who knows... The rangers might even still be there.

[Ariana Undomiel]

I think that PJ found that adding in yet another minor element from the books into the films would be just too confusing to those in the audience who have never read the book. Perhaps?

~Ariana

[Talimon]

I don't think so. We know about Rangers, or at least about the fact that they exist. Quite frankly very little is told about them in the book as well, which helps add to thier mystery. They could (and still might) work in the film.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
I'm still wondering just why the Elves are heading to Helm's Deep to begin with... I'm wondering what PJ will do with that. I can guess that it might tie in with the Elves deminishing, but who knows. Maybe it will be for dramas sake (Haldir dying, etc.).

:eek: Talimon! I would have thought that you would have applauded PJ's display of director's interpretation by making the elves fight at Helm's Deep.. You've approved of alot worse. :)

I think that in the book, not having the elves fight fits into the story better (Legolas: "They would not come, war comes to their own borders") and we hear about Mirkwood in the North and understand. The movie obviously won't be covering such things, so many movie goers would be asking, "Where the heck were the elves to fight such a major battle?" if they weren't made to fight there. Actually, I could justify having them fight at Pelennor Fields rather than at Helm's Deep....It does bother me that they are there, but seeing as everyone justifies all the changes based on understanding it as a MOVIE, then it makes sense for PJ to put that in there....

Listen to me..justifing PJ's foolish tampering...What is the world coming to.:rolleyes:

[Talimon]

I'll justify anything that makes sense to me. If you are reffering to Arwen I see very good reasons why PJ put here there. The Elves, on the other hand, I cannot see yet. I will not defend something that I haven't seen.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Talimon
I'll justify anything that makes sense to me. If you are reffering to Arwen I see very good reasons why PJ put here there. The Elves, on the other hand, I cannot see yet. I will not defend something that I haven't seen. I'm really replying to your veiled insult on the prior page but I find myself liking you so much Talimon that I'll just let it slide. I wasn't spouting rumours, they were facts, at one time. PJ filmed extensive fighting sequences of Arwen at Helm's Deep and decided her acting wasn't suitable to a Xena/Action type sequence. I still feel she will appear at Helm's Deep regardless of what is being portrayed in the media. There were extensive shoots done not only of her action sequences at Helm's Deep but also of her reason for going there. I can't imagine PJ weaving his way around that... but he's surprised me before.

I will, therefore, retract my prior statement that Arwen is at Helm's Deep and say that I expect to see Arwen at Helm's Deep. I may be right or I may be wrong. If I am proved wrong... it won't be the first time. :);)

And to you Talimon, regardless of our personal opinions of the movie and the book... I find myself getting more and more excited as December nears. PJ may not have the product that I would envision but he has the best product on the block right now. I admire his courage and his vision... I just wish he would have let a little more of JRRT's vision in too. :) C'mon December. :)

[Talimon]

I will, therefore, retract my prior statement that Arwen is at Helm's Deep and say that I expect to see Arwen at Helm's Deep. I may be right or I may be wrong.

While I have seen many reliable sources saying that Arwen is not at Helm's Deep, I trust this one from the fan magazine the most. It's from Issue #3 (Boromir on cover), page 21. It's regarding the weapons in the movie, but on purpose or not they let something slip:

Originally, Arwen's role in the trilogy called for her to carry a sword for several scenes, so a special sword was made for her... As The Lord of the Rings screenplay evolved, Arwen eventually came to wield the sword in only one scene.

So I guess this allows for both of our stories. Considering that Arwen has already wielded a sword in one scene, I take that to mean that's it. By the way it's interesting how much detail went into the Elvish inscriptions of the sword. There is stuff written on the swords that delves into the Silmarillion. Really cool stuff.

Glad to hear you are anxiously awaiting TTT. Just wanted to quote something PJ said in one of the old AICN interviews, which I think resonates with the way you feel:

Imagine this: 7000 years has gone by. We take a filmcrew to Helm's Deep ... it's now looking a little older, but still impresses as a mighty fortress. The Art Dept set to work, patching up holes and removing tourist signs. The current owner strikes a hard bargain, but New Line money finally gets us permission to film there for 6 weeks. Rohan heraldry is studied and faithfully reproduced. Theoden's original saddle is in a museum - far too valuable to use in the movie, but an exact copy is made. Archeological expeditions have unearthed an incredibly preserved mummified Uruk-hai carcass. We make exact prothestic copies of these viscous killers ... use CG to give us a 10,000 strong army. We have cast actors who look like Aragorn and Theoden. In an amazing casting coup, Legolas has agreed to return from Valinor with Gimli to recreate their part in this cinematic retelling of the events at the end of the Third Age. They stand on the battlements of the Deeping Wall, wind blowing in their hair, leading a group of extras proudly portraying the brave garrison of Rohan soldiers ... Uruk drums roll up the valley ... huge lighting rigs flash simulated lightening ... rain towers send gallons of water into the air ... on an assistant director's signal, twenty 35mm cameras start rolling simultaneously ... the battle of Helm's Deep is about to be captured on film.

Sure, it's not really THE LORD OF THE RINGS ... but it could still be a pretty damn cool movie.


I think that last line says it all: It's not exactly what Tolkien wrote, but it's still an incredible movie.

[Parrot]

Mayhap, Arwen could still appear at Helm's deep, bearing Anduril, but do no fighting of her own.

[markrob]

Ok Thorin, hold on to your seat. Knowing my background on this forum it is hard for me to state this, but: If PJ brings Arwen and a whole army of Elves to Helms Deep I will be bitterly disappointed with a "film adaptation" for the first time. I did not like a lot of the liberties he took in FoTR but could understand them and let them slide but this will take the cake! Oh my goodness, I have a little NPW in me! HELPPP!!!! I can not understand for the life of me why we must be subjected to Arwen thru out LOTR? Once was enough. Maybe all this will not come to fruition and turn out to be just rumor, but I sure doesnt sound like it based off the trailer talk thus far. I stand strong with my FAD membership but PJ will get a major demerit from me if Haldir and Co. show up at HD. You can stand up now Thorin. ;)

[Grond]

FORUM ALERT!!! FORUM ALERT!!! An alien has possessed markrob and has kidnapped his psyche. We should all immediately proceed to North Carolina and seek to restore his mind to his body. :);)

[Thorin]

(* Gets up off the floor after smelling salts)

Ooh, i'm liking this! All the more because I know that the rumors are true! And I get to see the NPW deep down in markrob come alive! Hallelujah!!!

The elves are going to be at Helm's Deep, that was true even when FotR came out...The Arwen thing still seems to be in the air. On the new TT trailer, Arwen is seen specifically at Rivendell and not at Helm's Deep. She won't be fighting there, but she may still be bringing Aragorn his sword.

From the new information that Talimon turned up, it seems that Haldir and the elves will be bringing Anduril and not Arwen....If that is the case and she stays in Rivendell or Lorien, I will breath easier and overlook the misplaced elves.....

[markrob]

I thought you'd like that. Dont get your hopes up too high though, that % of NPW is low and deeply hidden. I have no problem getting in you purists' crawl when it comes to your *****ing about the Nazgul's horses being the wrong color, or the way Pippin dropped the stone into the well in Moria. But this moving a whole army into a battle that they had nothing to do with I have no answer for other than to agree with you and that hurts. If a small garrison of Hobbit warriors show up at Minus Tirith I will renounce my FAD status and go looking for PJ myself!:eek: :confused: :eek:

[Thorin]

markrob,

I fail to see how some elves being where they aren't supposed to be fighting a mass battle bothers you but Arwen being where she is not supposed to be in FoTR does not...I just can't understand that logic!

I mean, for all Tolkien could be concerned, there could have been dwarves buried somewhere in the kafuffle, along with many others beings in ME...We're talking a massive battle where Tolkien doesn't even go into detail as to who was all there. As far as movie justification goes, it's really not a big deal (though yes, we do know that the elves were not there)...Yet Arwen was TOTAL fabrication, out of character, out of place, dominates a major scene of which she was never a part of and takes away from 5 other characters.

How can that be acceptable and justifiable, but elves fighting in a major battle is unacceptable???

[PRH]

Originally posted by Thorin
Arwen...and takes away from 5 other characters.
1. Frodo
2. Glorfindel
3. Elrond
4. Gandalf
5. ?

I too am more distraught over Elves at Helm's Deep than Arwen at the Ford. My biggest problem with Arwen at the Ford was taking away from Frodo's bravery. It would've been better if she's just plopped him on Asfaloth and sent him on his way ala Glorfindel. She did need some more scenes in FOTR though, and she does need some scenes in TTT. Book Arwen is just too non-existent to make the marriage work cinematically. I'm very glad that it looks like some of this stuff will be tackled as flashbacks! That gets her the screen time and exposition without destroying the narrative. Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep? Let's hope it's indeed out.

This business about Elves at Helm's Deep is not cool, and I can't justify it the way Arwen is somewhat justifiable. The only way I see this working is if the point is really driven home that the Elves are handing ME over to the race of men. If they are just your run-of-the-mill reinforcements, this just doesn't work. It's more fighting screen time for the race of Elves (which is cool) but at far too much of an expense of a major theme in the story. Still....it's not like the Rohirrim won the day (in the book) themselves. They just held the fort until a bunch of trees showed up and wiped out the Uruk-Hai....(I doubt we'll see the Huorns in TTT btw)

I also don't like the idea of any surviving Elves replacing the Rangers. This will diminish the tight relationship between Aragorn, Gimil and Legolas. However, if Ellohir and Elladan are the only ones, so much the better. I really hate the idea of the King of Men returning to Minas Tirith leading into battle...let's see...a dwarf and a band of Elves? C'mon - we need those Rangers!

As for Anduril, perhaps Haldir will bring the shards, but not the reforged sword. If he did, Aragorn would certainly weild it at Helm's Deep and we've seen in all the previews that he does not do so. This would mean that the reforging must take place at Helm's Deep or Edoras (or someone else, perhaps Arwen, will show up with the reforged Anduril later).

Remember - PJ stated back in like March something like "the editing process is a little fluid, but as we see it now - the sword will be reforged at the very beginning of ROTK." Certiainly Haldir @ Helm's Deep was well cemented before then so either he only brings the shards or someone else brings the reforged sword later.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by PRH
1. Frodo
2. Glorfindel
3. Elrond
4. Gandalf
5. ?

I kinda lumped all the Nazgul into one entity...All their fear and power was taken away by one elf princess who defied them all and made them resort to a terrifying pronouncement of "Hand over the hafling, She-elf" or something ridiculous like that. Only to be defied with such amazing strength and wit by that sword welding, brave solo warrior, "If you want him, come and claim him."

Originally posted by PRH
I too am more distraught over Elves at Helm's Deep than Arwen at the Ford....This business about Elves at Helm's Deep is not cool, and I can't justify it the way Arwen is somewhat justifiable....Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep? Let's hope it's indeed out.

:confused: I'm sorry. I just don't understand your logic. The elves fighting are nothing more than extra action. Where is the blasphemy in all that? The whole Arwen change is ten times worse than sticking in extra fighters at Helm's Deep, be they elves or not. It is only minorly significant in the story, not the movie. And from what I've gleaned, all the movie defenders don't refer to the book that often...after all, it's PJ's "interpretation" is it not? So what's the problem?

And why not Arwen at Helm's Deep? How is that any different from the Arwen of FoTR? PJ only opened the door by casting JRR's Arwen aside and portraying her as he did with all of the movie defenders' blessing. Cinematically, it would make sense. She shows her determination to fight by her lover's side and cement her decision to remain with him....I don't understand how all of you can pooh-pooh the book to justify horrible changes, and yet get all upset by minor changes that are within the same "spirit", as you all call it, of Tolkien....

[Grond]

Thorin....Thorin....Thorin....

Elves at Helm's Deep is direct contradiction to the book. Elrond makes the statement that "this is the War of Men" and "Our time is passing". It is, indeed, making a major change in the characterization of the characters, only this time it is a whole race being changed whereas with Arwen it was but a single character.

One good thing about Elves at Helm's Deep is that it will give Legolas a few more lines.

"But even more would I give for a hundred good archers of Mirkwood. We shall need them. The Rohirrim have good bowmen after their fashion, but there are too few here, too few." "Well I'll be!! Lookee here!! We got a hundred Lorien archers comin' up the road! Wishes do come true! They ain't from Mirkwood but Lorien Elves will do!":);):p

[markrob]

I guess I could turn the question around on you and ask why the sudden change on your behalf of accepting "cinematically" alterations? But I dont want to go there because I think we have all softend on our hard stances. I really cant justify it in words, only that it just seems so wrong emotionally/out of the oridinary, and unnecessary. You must remember that I did not approve of Arwen at the Ford for many reasons. I see why PJ did it so she would not be sprung on everyone in RoTK. I know all the **** about Glory boy but his presence was not the crucial cinematically. The presence of an Elven army at Helms Deep has no future significant value at all. They did not have a "dog in that fight" so to speak, other than their dislike for Orcs. I am sure you will not be satisfied with my explanation but we seldom ever are in agreement. I have no problem debating you purists on either justified/ unjustified alterations from PJ, its the original nit-picking of minute detail thats gets my feathers ruffled. And I did like PRH's stance on the subject.

[Thorin]

Oh, don't get me wrong...The elves being at Helm's Deep at all bothers me as a purist...However, it makes more sense cinematically then sticking Arwen the Powerful in FotR as she was....Neither of them period would suit my fancy. I was just trying to see the logic of the FADs' justification...It still doesn't make sense....

[PRH]

For the sake of this argument, can we draw a distinction between "Arwen replacing Glorfindel" and "Arwen at the Ford?" The first one was basically necessary to introduce Arwen. Having her at the Ford was basically unnecessary, and I don't care for that change.

[Thorin]

Alright, I can agree with that...

Had Arwen done strictly what Glorfindel had done, I might have come around sooner...I wasn't that attached to Glorfindel, and it was necessary to introduce more of Arwen (though I would just have preferred that she stayed in Rivendell)....I will never see the logic and sense for Arwen doing what she did at the Fords...Terrible it was and I still believe (according to Tolkien's quotes from his Letters) that Tolkien would not have approved of such a drastic character change... I still fume at it and I will still fume at it when I watch the Extended Version DVD in November.:mad: I'm hoping the extra footage will smooth out my furrowed brow....

[Grond]

Okay... I've viewed the new trailer at least a dozen times now and gone through it frame by frame. I love it! Everything seems to be in it's proper place for me except........ Theoden tells Eowyn... "you must lead my people to Helm's Deep!" What the heck is up with that. She led the people to Dunharrow while the Knights of the Riddermark went to Helm's Deep to hopefully unite with Erkenbrand's forces and any other folks who escaped the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen.

Does anyone have an idea where PJ is taking the plot on this. If he remains basically true to the plot, I can live with Arwen there as Helm's Deep was also a refuge. Help!

And to both PRH and markrob, my problem all along hasn't been Arwen in the FotR but Arwen at the Fords. That was a blatant directorial mistake in my eyes but one that I have mellowed about over time. It seems that time makes all of us great Tolkien fans, whether FAD or NPW, come together in the end. ;)

[DGoeij]

Grond, if you meant Eowyn in your above statement I understand what you are trying to say. But was Arwen in this trailer anywhere near Helm's Deep??????
Whoever would be doing it, leading the civillians of Rohan to Helm's Deep sounds a little well..... stupid. But that's off topic here.

[Grond]

And I most certainly mean Eowyn. Thanks for catching that for me DGoeij. Eowyn did indeed lead her people to Dunharrow. I just wonder why the Theoden's reference "Lead my people to Helm's Deep..." almost as if he wasn't going. And we all know that one of the great battles takes place there.

Arrgh!! Denethor = Theoden, Arwen = Eowyn, and Edoras = Dunharrow.

I must have checked my brain at the door. Three errors in one post. Grond is getting old and senile. :):(;):p

[Parrot]

Grond that would also be Theoden rather than Denethor, right. Not to sound like an NPW but it don't happen very often.... Grond messed up.... heehee....:p

[PRH]

I guess Dunharrow and Helm's Deep are being merged into one.

Maybe in the movie Theoden's first idea is a retreat to Helm's Deep...then when battle becomes inevitable he fights...don't know why Eowyn would need to do the leading in that scenario though...

Maybe in the movie Theoden's first idea is all the civilians retreat to Helm's Deep while the military stay in Edoras or go out to the plains to fight or something...doesn't quite jibe with movie Theoden's relucantance to fight though...I don't know.

Also, we see Theoden as part of the march to Helm's Deep! Maybe he splits off in the middle for some reason?

Maybe that line "you must lead the people to Helm's Deep" was edited and is misleading. I am pretty confused myself.

It's good to see we're hashing out a little common ground on the Arwen thing!

[Parrot]

Maybe the "Muster of Rohan" will take place before Helm's Deep in the movie. Theoden and the others will take a circuitous route to muster an army while Eowyn leads the women and children to HD ASAP. Of course in this scenario they would still be expected to have some sort of military escort which might again rule out Eowyn's leading them... hmmm...don't know....

Does Elrond say "the alliance of men and elves is ended" or "ending"? Can't quite make it out.

[Thorin]

Hmm...I thought Theoden's comment to "lead my people to Helm's Deep" was to Aragorn....In other words, lead my people (soldiers) into battle...Maybe I didn't see who he was talking too.

[Leto]

The scene by scene commentary on lordoftherings.net to the new trailer, says Theoden is ordering Eowyn to lead the people to safety, at Helm's Deep. I think maybe they are making a distinction, like in the book, between the 'deep', the 'gate', the hornburg (the tower), etc. In the book, the people of Westfold had gone to Helm's Deep, actually the caves, for refuge, during the battles of the Fords. The chronological progression of things will obviously be skewed from the book a good deal...as we see Grima standing beside Saruman as he is talking to troops below Orthanc, before they have marched out to battle. We know Grima doesn't leave Edoras until after Theoden is healed, and shortly thereafter the Rohorrim leave for Helm's Deep, with Saruman's army chasing them right up to the gates. The ents attack Isengard as soon as the army leaves, and Grima gets there to find everything in ruin, and the circle flooded. Then Treebeard makes him swim across to Orthanc , 'Put all the rats in one barrel' Gandalf said :)

I wonder if they will explain about Erkenbrand and the prior battles at the fords in the movie, or if that will be left out. If it is left out, who does Gandalf bring with him when he comes to the rescue in the morning? The trailer shows riders following him in the charge (though it also shows him charging in at night). We will see Dunlanders, for sure, as the trailer has a shot of Saruman amongst a group of wild ruffianly looking men, and in the shot of the village being attacked, it is men who are attacking. I suppose it will explain a little of that people's ancient hatred of Rohan.

I guess Arwen will be there...we see her leaving Rivendell, or Lorien, with a host of grey cloaked elves...and in a later shot we see a host of grey cloaked people entering into Helm's gate. We also have a shot of Aragorn leading armored Elves in a charge against some orcs, I guess.

I don't remember Theoden saying to Gandlalf "I will not engage in open war" in the book. Actually I'm certain. :) It was more that he didn't believe Saruman was doing any evil, due to Grima's lies...when Gandalf healed him, he saw the truth right away, and was resolved to fight. that chapter is one of my favorites...so sad to see it brushed over carelessly (just like the Flight to the Fords) I guess we should not expect anything more from PJ, though. He's giving us something that looks a lot like Middle Earth, and looks really good. Too bad it has to be dumbed down for mass-media consumption. (sorry for that interjection, just can't help it)

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Thorin
Hmm...I thought Theoden's comment to "lead my people to Helm's Deep" was to Aragorn....In other words, lead my people (soldiers) into battle...Maybe I didn't see who he was talking too.

That's a good point, though the next shot in the trailer showed Eowyn looking up (while the shot before showed Thoeden looking down).

Here is what I assume PJ is doing: Theoden and company will head out to Isengard to fight. On the way there, Aragorn, scouting ahead, see's the army of 10,000. Realizing they are vastly outnumbered, he tells Theoden that they must retreat to Helm's Deep. Remember that there were Rohirrim people in Helm's Deep: it was a refuge.

The problem with my theory is that on the DVD preview we see Aragorn telling Theoden that the enemy forces are "10,000 strong", apparently at Helm's Deep. Maybe he says this after the battle has begun, who knows. This is a change that actually works out for me. If you neglect the geography, which would make Theoden sending his people to Helm's Deep seem insane, you can imagine it being a safe haven, and his forces "retreating" to it (which really isn't too far from the book anyway).

[Leto]

Yes, geography aside. In the first movie we have already seen that the geography is much reduced...the distances between things is reduced. Gandalf rides to Minas Tirith from the Shire in a single shot, and the Nazgul issuing from Mordor reach the borders of the Shire in the same.

Helm's deep was west and south of Edoras, in the actual geography...not such a bad idea, if there was not already an army on the way, about to attack the place. At first, the army of Theoden went north and west, along the road, towards the fords of Isen...then Legolas spied the orc army coming, under cover of magical darkness...they then raced south along the road coming to Helm's Deep, with the orcs right on their heels. Perhaps the people are led a different route in the movie, or they change their plans along the way, and send Eowyn with the people straight into the mountains, when they see what is coming...we do see a shot of Aragorn ready to ride off quickly with others, while Eowyn gives him a longing glance. And then there's the shot of Eowyn in white, standing before Meduseld. I always assumed that was the scene right after the host of Rohan had left...the book describes her exactly that way...in white, shining and alone, watching as the army passed far over the fields. I guess they kept the visual, but changed the circumstance. *shrugs* can't wait to actually see it. :)

[Talimon]

That's true!!! I completely forgot about that shot of Eowyn...hm...now I'm really confused. Maybe they changed that in the reshoots? That's is just wierd. Maybe she sees Aragorn, Legolas, Gimili, and Gandalf approaching. Kind of doubt it, but then again it's hard to say. In the new trailer we see people emptying out of Edoras, and Aragorn talking to Eowyn. I'm lost :).

[PRH]

Originally posted by Leto
Yes, geography aside. In the first movie we have already seen that the geography is much reduced...the distances between things is reduced. Gandalf rides to Minas Tirith from the Shire in a single shot, and the Nazgul issuing from Mordor reach the borders of the Shire in the same.
That doesn't mean the geography was contracted, it just means they didn't feel like including a bunch of long scenes of horseriding. It could easily have taken Gandalf weeks or longer to reach Minas Tirith and the same for the Nazgul given what we saw in the film. The 17 years before Gandalf's return (ala the book) could even have passed for all we're shown. Same goes for the trip from Buckleberry Ferry to Bree.

Here's my new theory on the trip to Helm's Deep: Everybody sets out together, then a small group break off to go scouting (or something). This includes at least Aragorn and Theoden (and perhaps Gandalf, if he's not already gone)(probably also Gimli, Legolas and Eomer). Before they leave, Theoden tells Eowyn to "lead the people to Helm's Deep." During the 'scouting' the warg riders attack the small party. Aragorn is injured or trapped in the mud or something (we've seen pics of this) and is left for dead (or just cut off from the rest). The rest escape to Helm's Deep. Then Aragorn spies the army of 10,000 and eventually makes his way to Helm's Deep too. He opens the big doors to Theoden's chamber in the Hornburg (the closing shot of the new trailer) and Theoden and Hama (or is it Gamling?) do the big double take we saw in the first preview (attached to FOTR) -- i.e. "Woah! We thought you were a goner!"

whaddya you think?

Also I noticed something interesting - in the wide shot showing all the Rohirrim walking along next to the lake, we see Gimli riding a horse all by himself!

Also, I too think the shot of Eowyn in white outside Meduseld is of her watching the approach of Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli/Gandalf.

[DGoeij]

Your reasoning does make sense PRH. It would take away the nessicity to explain all the differences between Dunharrow and Helm's Deep and all the explanation of the geography of Rohan. In the book one can look at the map. I can hardly believe they will add a Discovery Channel-like map with arrows and flags to explain the movement of armies. Including the dull narrator. :p
This way, all the defences will be concentrated on HD, in the movie the only stronghold, which gives more reason for all the refugees to go to it.
However, explain to an audience you have built your capital on a place that's impossible to defend, and you have to travel a long way over open ground to the nearest safe place.

I want to see that movie!!!!! :D

And I'm still annoyed with Gandalf's suicide. Riding your horse into a solid wall of pikes, man.:rolleyes:

[PRH]

Originally posted by DGoeij
And I'm still annoyed with Gandalf's suicide. Riding your horse into a solid wall of pikes, man.
I think the idea is that there's some sort of magical influence by Gandalf which breaks the Uruk's line without suffering harm. While under non-magical circumstances it would be a pretty poor strategy, you gotta admit it's a stunning visual!

[markrob]

As Gandalf the White, he can not be harmed by normal weapons anyway. Its a fact Jack.

[Talimon]

And I'm still annoyed with Gandalf's suicide. Riding your horse into a solid wall of pikes, man.

I'm sure they'll make it up by having a bunch of Rohirrim die in the process. I doubt it will just have everyone run into the phalanx and for some mysterious reason not die :).

[DGoeij]

Uruk-hai to Hama: Dodge this!

[Grond]

Originally posted by markrob
As Gandalf the White, he can not be harmed by normal weapons anyway. Its a fact Jack. I appreciate your sentiment here which is illustrated by this...from The Two Towers, The White Rider
...'Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,' he said, and the voice was the voice of their old friend and guide. 'Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.'He's saying that not even Anduril could harm him now that he has been reborn as Gandalf the White.

BTW markrob... that's my song. After all, I am the Hammer. Can't touch this!!

[Parrot]

Quick, somebody mace this guy and drag him back to reality before he starts wearing baggy gold lamé pants and hanging out on the Saints sidelines.