The Reluctant Istari (Members Only)

[Ancalagon]

This is a 'members of Ost-in-Edhil ' only discussion

. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it. Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Originally Gandalf (Olórin) did not desire to be included in the group of representatives chosen to travel to Middle-Earth. Yet, at Manwes behest Gandalf was commanded to make this journey and complete a given task. This reluctance shows two aspects that I find interesting;

1. Gandalf was suitably afraid of Saurons power and thought himself to weak to compete against him.
2. Manwe specifically commanded him to attempt this task for exactly that reason and foresaw in Gandalf a strength or ability unknown to Gandalf himself.

Yet, I wonder if after Gandalfs fall upon Celebdil presented him with an opportunity to return to Aman and forego his original task?

Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done

Could Gandalf at this point have desired to stay in spirit within the confines of the Undying Lands as he had originally desired but was made to return again at the bidding of Manwe?

Although the eventual outcome was positive in respect of Sauron actually being defeated; should Manwe have forced Olórin to commit to a task he felt unable to do?

[Gothmog]

Olorin did not seek this task. Curumo did. The only one to fully complete the task set was Olorin. This seems to me to show that desire weakens those who are to work against evil.

I have no doubt that Olorin did indeed desire to remain in the Blessed Realm. After all, he did not want to leave it in the first place. He probably hoped that he had already done enough to say that his task was ended. The Elves, Men, Dwarves and even Hobbits were set to oppose Sauron and there was little else apparently that he could do as it was not for him to directly face Sauron.

Manwe however looked at things in a different way. He knew, it would seem, that Olorin had greater ability than the more humble Maia realised himself. Manwe moreover had the responsibility of removing the evil of Sauron from Middle-earth. He would therefore have two choices. One, to confront and defeat Sauron in the same way as Melkor was defeated, or Two, to cause the people of Middle-earth to do this for themselves. If he chose the first option he would infact be weakening the peoples of Middle-earth in the very areas that they needed to be strengthened. To use the second option he would need the best possible leaders to show the Elves and the rest of the diverse peoples of Middle-earth the corret path and to persuade them to follow it.

Since, as was later shown, Olorin was the best possible leader to achive this, Manwe Had to force him to accept the task. His responsibility over-rode any other consideration. Since The outcome was still in doubt when Gandalf 'Died' battling the Balrog, Manwe had to send him back to ensure that the Task was completed, such as countering Saruman's work in Rohan using Grima Wormtounge and the weakening of the steward of Gondor by Sauron. If this had not been done then the War of the Ring could well have gone the other way.

[Ancalagon]

What I also find odd is that manwe made no other recorded command of any of the Ainur in such a matter as he did with Olorin. Even with Aule he made no actual command because he knew the heart and design of the person. His command to Olorin seems harsh in comparison as he was obviously made to go against his will. 'Will' I fear is the operative word in this matter or lack thereof on Olorins part. Olorin had no free-will in this choice.

I said irrespective of the outcome of Saurons defeat; should Manwe have commanded Olorin against his will? Surely he might have sought to send one more willing or more confident in his place?

[Gothmog]

I will attempt a fuller answer later. But to answer you about Manwe seeking out one who was more willing or more confident My prior post included:-This seems to me to show that desire weakens those who are to work against evil. So the very willingness of one to face Sauron could actualy weaken them, this could also apply to confidence.

[Thorin]

I think Olorin's initial reluctance was because he was unsure of himself. Manwe, like the teacher who sees the potential in a seemingly hopeless student, needed in ME what he knew Olorin had. Inner strength, wisdom beyond even Saruman, and a love for the people of ME (Noldor). I think it was just foresight of Manwe's part to force Gandalf to pick up that chalk and go up to the blackboard to realise what he could do.

As for Gandalf coming back after his fight with the Balrog, I don't think Manwe had to force him. I think by this time, Gandalf realised how important his role as the last faithful Istari was in fulfilling their task: help the peoples of ME defeat Sauron. Especially after the treason of Isengard, Gandalf knew that he would be desperately needed. Only he could truly counteract Saruman's power.

I think after 2000 years of living on ME and growing to love the inhabitants of it (especially the hobbits and Frodo whom he felt personally responsible for) I doubt, after growing in strength, confidence and wisdom, he would revert back to the scaredy cat he was before he realised where his journey would take him. I think that because of this desire to go back, Manwe gave him more power as a reward for staying so faithful and a means to combat Saruman. Gandalf said himself, "I am what Saruman should have been" or something like that. To me, that would have been Manwe's doing.

[Chymaera]

After the fight with the Balrog. Gandalf had the end in sight and after haveing come to care for Middle earth so much desired to be their to finish the job.

Gandalf greatly wanted to fight the Witch-king, but fate denied him.;)

Manwë knew what was to come and so did Gandalf. Gandalf had reason to fear. Consider what happened to Saurman.

[Ancalagon]

Gandalf greatly wanted to fight the Witch-king, but fate denied him.

You will need to develop this theory a little, it interests me greatly!

[Gothmog]

Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.
though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

In earlier version of this passage it is said that Olórin was "counsellor of Irmo," and that in the hearts of those who hearkened to him awoke thoughts "of fair things that had not yet been but might yet be made for the enrichment of Arda."
QUOTE] Unfinished Tales: The Istari

[QUOTE]Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion, But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
The Silmarillion: Of the Maia.

All of the Above quotes show that Olorin had what appear to be unique abilities amungst the Maiar. And His ability to produce in the hearts, Visions and promptings of wisdom would be exactly what was needed for this task. This is no doubt why Manwe wanted him to go.

As for what happened after the fight with the Balrog, I think that he did desire to remain in Aman. Had it been his choice to return he would have said that he had been allowed to return not that he had been 'Sent Back'.

I doubt that he would have argued about the return however, on being told that he was needed and that he would have a greater amount of his power for it, he would I feel, accept that he was needed in Middle-earth. He would know that his job was not finished even though he probably hoped he had done enough.

[Chymaera]

Originally posted by Chymaera
Gandalf greatly wanted to fight the Witch-king, but fate denied him.
Originally posted by Ancalagon
You will need to develop this theory a little, it interests me greatly!

The Pyre of Denethor; The Return of the King


When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless. But Pippin rose to his feet....At that moment Gandalf stirred and spoke to Shadowfax, and was about to ride through the Gate.

'Gandalf, Gandalf!' cried Pippin and Shadowfax halted.

'What are you doing here?' said Gandalf. 'Is it not the law of the City that those who wear the black and silver must stay in the Citidel, unless their lord gives them leave?'

'He has,' said Pippin. 'He sent me away. But I am frightened. Something terrible may happen up there. The Lord is out of his mind, I think. I am afraid he will kill himself, and kill Faramir too. Can't you do something?

Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the field he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go,' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.'
I think that at this point that Gandalf too remembered Glorfindel's prediction that NO man would kill the Witch-king. I beleive that Gandalf interpeded that to mean himself as a Maiar, Gandalf could defeat the Ring-wraith. He did not foresee the feats of Éowyn and Merry.
The Pyre of Denethor, cont.; The Return of the King

...'Can't you save Faramir?'

'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this. Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemey has the power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work.'
Then having made up his mind he acted swiftly; and catching up Pippin and setting him before him, he turned Shadowfax with a word. Up the climbing streets of Minas Tirith they clattered, while the noise of war rose behind them.
I hope that this shows you how I read this part. Gandalf saw himself as one of the Premire Combatants in the battle, he could see no else who could defeat the Witch-king. So It fell to him, nothing less then Pippin with his news of Faramir could have taken him from the battlefield. Gandalf greatly wanted to fight the Witch-king, but fate denied him.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Chymaera

Gandalf greatly wanted to fight the Witch-king, but fate denied him.
I think that you have read Slightly more into to it than there is.
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him. However that may be, the Captain of Despair does not press forward, yet. He rules rather according to the wisdom that you have just spoken, from the rear, driving his slaves in madness on before.
from RotK: The Siege of Gondor
It is not that Gandalf 'Greatly Desires' to do battle with the Witch King. Gandalf Knows that he is able to at least match this foe and therefore has a chance. He is quite prepaired to do battle. He is not certain that He can defeat the Lord of the Nazgul but he does know that no 'Man' can do so. As far as he knows there are only 'Men' on the field to fight this creature so he could not know how the battle would go. Therefore, as far as he was concerned it was likely to turn Evil if he was not there.