You're all bitter

[Sam_Gamgee]

i think you are all being very very bitter towards PJ. if every1 thinks it could of been done better. then do it better. and if you dont plan on doing it better dont say it should be done better because i dont see you trying. but if you do plan and doing it better do it, and if you do do it better. good job and trash PJ all you want. but if you cant do it better then PJ, then i dont see you trying so dont just sit and trash PJ and say it should of been done this way. when you couldn't do it better then him yourself. and for those of you who say it shouldn't of been done at all because no1 can match tolkien. then your closeminded. because you have missed the point. its not the point to out do tolkien or whatever. the point is to portray his work in a way every1 can enjoy. and then if they enjoy it enough. they will read tolkien's work for themselves. so STOP BEING BITTER. i dont see you trying to do it. at leats PJ had the guts to do it knowing all of you would hate him for it and nit pick everything he did.


(this next sentence was written after the orig. message)
sorry if i offended any1

[joxy]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Just because someone thinks something could have been done better does not mean that they themself need prove so by doing it better.

Quite so. Most people are not film directors,
so couldn't do the job themselves,
but they are perfectly capable of deciding whether a director has done a good or a bad job.
There are plenty of better directors than PJ in the world-
I read that his previous films have not been well rated.
Some of the others would have done better-
they wouldn't have made the major changes at all,
and would have dealt with the minor changes better,
for example by using better script writers.
Still, PJ did a pretty good job, only a few percent short of excellent.

[Sam_Gamgee]

im simply trying to say complainers get no where. if you want something done then try to do it more power to you. but if you dont stand up to it. your simply complaining about things, your not accomplishing much. im not bitter at all towards you guys but i can see how you would think that. simply because of the subject itself can come off bitter. i just think you guys could do constructive things opposed to complaining. try to do somthing with your thoughts

[Ariana Undomiel]

I agree with Sam. Everywhere I go someone seems to be complaining about something.

~Ariana

[joxy]

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Everywhere I go someone seems to be complaining about something.

~Ariana

It's not about complaining; these threads are for tracing the differences.

[Sam_Gamgee]

but your not just tracing differences that would be saying. PJ put shelob in ROTK instead of TTT. you guys are adding, more by sayign stuff like i can't believe he did that it really ticked me off that was the last sraw im tired of PJ he does all these things wrong, and then attacking him.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Just wanted to say that no matter how certain people feel about certain subjects there will always be someone who disagrees with them. This forum is titled: Tolkiens LOTR vs. PJ's LOTR. Therefore you are going to have people who hate the movie on here criticizing it as well as people who love the movie praising it. That is what this forum is for. Those who complain have the perfect right to do so.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Sam_Gamgee
....i can't believe he did that it really ticked me off that was the last sraw im tired of PJ he does all these things wrong, and then attacking him.

Not attacking- pointing out the differences, and asking if he has an explanation (or excuse) for making them, then exercising our right of free speech by saying we disagree with him- when we do disagree which is by no means always.
BTW what does "ticked me off" mean? In the UK to tick someone off is either to mark them off on a list (for example, as being present in a class), or to criticise them mildly for some minor misdemeanour. Neither sense seems to apply as the word is used here.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Confusticated
to say that something ticked someone off, it to say that that thing made someone mad, angry, or enraged....
Thanks Conf. Has that always been the usage in the US, and are the two other meanings also used?

[Silnarrin]

This reminds me of a discussion about the role-playing game MERP. When Middle Earth Role Playing came out, Tolkien purists slammed it wholeheartedly (myself included). "It does not have the 'feel' of Middle Earth", we'd cry. "This detail was wrong...that history was changed...too much magic...there's mistakes here." It was a long time later that I learned why it was made the way it was. It's makers had to create a game which would attract role players from other games (like Dungeons and Dragons), and thus, in the game, Tolkien's works were slightly 'warped' to create a version which (they hoped) both Tolkien fans and D&D roleplayers would buy. They had to walk a fine line between those who wanted a 'pure' Tolkien and those who were largely unaware of Tolkien. My point is this: A game made just for the "Tolkien purists" would not have sold enough copies to be viable. Hopefully, the game would inspire people to read Tolkien's works AND make some money.

I think PJ was also walking a thin line. A movie which catered only to Tolkien purists would not sell (and let's face it, that's why movies are made), and probably not make too much sense to those unaware of Tolkien's works. It had to have enough Tolkien to satisfy the purists, be clear enough that non-Tolkien readers would understand it, and be short enough that the average movie-goer would sit through it. It also had to be under a budget set by studio excutives (who probably had never read the books in the first place). Under these guidelines, I would not want to attempt the movie.

PJ tried to run it right down the middle. And the people howled. The purists dislike the movie because it did not have time for the Barrow Downs scenes... the others can't keep Sauron and Sauraman straight, and complained it was too long. PJ anticipated these problems before he ever made the thing. And yet, he still made the movie (I believe the largest undertaking ever by the film industry).

Slam Peter Jackson? No. I think the man deserves some respect for what he tried to accomplish. He tried to please ALL of us.

I myself am a 'Tolkien Purist'. I would have loved to see the Barrow Downs, and Glorfindel, and all the little things that were missed. These omissions, however, do not take away the entire worth of the movie. I'm glad to see a honest attempt at turning my favorite story into something visual.

Would anyone actually have been happier if TFOR was not made?

[Sam_Gamgee]

well confusticated i admit im doing the same thing as you are by complaining. but one difference, in my complaining, i accomplish one thing. i let you know that there seems to be alot of pure non constructive complaing and not discussion of differences. on the other hand, complaining about the movie is only saying i dont like the movie theres no good or reall bad coming from it, its just takes up space. and i agree there is obviously gonna be people who dont like the movie and complain in this part of the forum. but my point is that its called Tolkien vs. PJ (short version) that doesn't mean complaints about PJ, it means discussion about the differences. so im just suggesting to keep the non constructive complaints to a minimum.

[Sam_Gamgee]

o and the title of this thread was to get attention. i am really not that upset. i just think there too much complaining. as some1 pointed out complaining here is inevitable. i just think its being done in excess.

[Ariana Undomiel]

Perhaps we should take note of Sam's complaint about complaining. Perhaps we can work hardered to give constructive critisism rather than complain.

~Ariana

[Nenya Evenstar]

I myself wish that there was less complaining and more constructive critisism. However, I believe that those who complain have the perfect right to do so, and should therefore be able to do so without the complaints of others.

[Thorin]

What I am tired of, are people coming on a TOLKIEN forum who feel that unless we get down and kiss PJs feet for making what they feel is a "perfect rendition" of a book with no faults, we are nothing but complainers.

We have the right to criticize the movie's faults because we are comparing it to Tolkien. As Tolkien fans, we have the right to do so. Anyone who doesn't like it can go start a "Peter Jackson Forum". Obviously none of us can go out and do what PJ did with a movie. Does that not give us the right to still point out faults and short comings? Of course not! If that were the case, most of you couldn't say boo about your presidents or prime ministers!

Long live criticism!

[Talimon]

Don't scare the critics away, Sam. If no one here fills in the role of relentlessly criticizing the movies that just might force me to do it myself. :) I think I'd do a very good job. I have many good arguments against the movie, though god forbit they reach the critiques prickly little ears. But in general I do try and actually express my honest opinion. ;)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
Don't scare the critics away, Sam. If no one here fills in the role of relentlessly criticizing the movies that just might force me to do it myself. :) I think I'd do a very good job. I have many good arguments against the movie, though god forbit they reach the critiques prickly little ears. But in general I do try and actually express my honest opinion. ;)

Too late, Tal!!! The rumor has been spread (we won't say by which dwar--I mean which person :rolleyes: ) Talimon is anti-PJ! Welcome to the purist fold, Tal! :D

[Talimon]

NEVER!!!! :)

[Diamond Took]

someone who agrees with me word-for-word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sam, your a legend.:)

*ahem* carry on with your conversation....:p ;) :rolleyes:

[Grond]

We have a book. We love the book. We want to see the book accurately and fairly rendered to the visual medium. PJ attempts to render the book to the visual medium. PJ asserts that chapter is read before each scene is shot. Expectations are high that the movie will reflect the book accurately. Problem?

Yes, everyone's view of the word "accurately" is different. Many fans are thrilled with the entire story and love the way the PJ has woven the visualizations of Middle-earth around a more 20th century plot line. Female roles are enhanced (for whatever reason), some plots are shortened and some are ommited (understandable within the confines of time constraints), and finally we get to the most significant difference in the word "accurately". PJ has to please not only himself, but also the executives at New Line Cinema. I would venture a guess that none of the executives at NLC have ever read the book. They would have no idea of any of the characterizations or plotlines.

So, I can understand why the movie doesn't accurately reflect what I would want in the movie... I wasn't on the NLC staff to direct the director.

But... I can complain. It is my right and the right of every single member of this forum. I do not appreciate a thread being started for the purpose of "bashing" the bashers. PJ put himself into a position to receive criticism by undergoing this endeavor. He must take the good with the bad. None of us should have to apologize for stating our opinion. If you don't like somone's opinion, by all means add them to your ignore list; but, I don't want to see anymore threads like this one started for the sole purpose of complaining about other members.

That is not what this forum is for.

[Sam_Gamgee]

i admit i shouldn't of jumped on every one for complaing they do have a right to analyze the movie i was just tired of hearing so much comlaining. i dont mind discussion about the differences i like it infact thats a fun thing to do. but when all the discussion is about how i dont like this and he did a horrible job, thats your opion and your entilted but i just got tired of hearing it. and im sure you guys are tired of hearing people like me. sorry.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Actually, I didn't mind your post at all. You are entitled to your opinion just like the purists are entitled to their's. I didn't see any problem with you posting this thread. Give me a good mix of purists and non-purists and I'll be happy... :D

[Grond]

Nenya, I was just trying to point out that beginning a thread entitled, "You're all bitter!" is a tad bit infalamatory. Most of the purists have tried to limit their criticism to PJ and his rendition of the works. PJ put himself in the spotlight and has to take that heat... it is his job.

Anyone on the forum must be free to express their opinion without fearing another member attacking them personally. Calling someone bitter or ignorant or stupid or any number of other negative descriptive terms can easily be deemed a personal attack and cause problems on the forum. That is the only reason I have interceded here. Everyone needs to keep it civil and criticize the movie, or the author but not each other.

[Sam_Gamgee]

Originally posted by Grond
Nenya, I was just trying to point out that beginning a thread entitled, "You're all bitter!" is a tad bit infalamatory.


Grond you must of not seen my reply that said the title was to grab attention and i really was not trying to insult anybody. and i apoligize and realized a while ago i should of used a different title. sorry about that.

and i just tried to clear things up a little in the title, and i added an apology too, in the original post. hope that makes things more clear.

[Grond]

And, good Sam_Gamgee, your explanation and apology is the only reason I haven't closed the thread. :);)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thanks Grond! I understand what you're saying, and I can see your point. You're just doing your job to keep this forum as great as it is. Sorry - I didn't mean to step on your authority! :)

[Grond]

I would rather persuade someone to change their attitude than to strongarm them. That is what I've been trying to do this entire thread. I think everyone realizes how easy it is to hurt someone's feelings and I also know that Samwise wasn't really trying to do that.

I loved the movie but wished it had been truer to the book. Others loved the movie and felt it fairly reflected the book. I respect their opinion and just expect them to respect mine. Peace all. I love you guys and gals. :)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Grond:

Don't worry - I didn't think that you were trying to strong-arm anybody, and it didn't come across that way. That is one of the things I love about this forum - people can talk about things and have different opinions and not have to worry about other people stepping on them, and everyone respects each other. Peace! We love you too, and thanks for being such a great Mod! :D

[CloakedShadow]

I myself am a "bitter" person. I complain all the time about what he left out or what he added in. But, remember this, fellow complainers:

Although some of us think it could have been better, it could have been worse!

And also, that his choice of casting was MAGNIFICIENT!

[Diamond Took]

Originally posted by CloakedShadow
I myself am a "bitter" person.

you're not the only one!!!
well, this is where all the bitter people go by the looks of it! just look around the place! :D :D :D ;)

[CloakedShadow]

Bitter people of the world untie as one...and there was doleful complaining about the lands...:D

[LadyGaladriel]

If you let the monster of bitterness in then it will choke you to death by your own nastiness.

[CloakedShadow]

Bitterness, if you want me...come and claim me!

[Ariana Undomiel]

Ummmm .... ok that was an interesting statement.

~Ariana

[CloakedShadow]

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Ummmm .... ok that was an interesting statement.

~Ariana

Yes, it was, wasn't it? My drive is random thoughts and quotes and such...

[lilhobo]

this is one hilarious thread; just read the first page and samwise raved on about complaining and bitterness for 50 lines without a full stop :D

[Mrs. Maggott]

To begin with, as an "older lady", I am entitled to correct and even criticize (it comes with the territory AND the arthritis!). So unless someone else has already made the correction on this thread and I have missed it because of my failing vision, Sam, dear, the "Your" of your thread title should be "You're", which is a contraction of "you are" rather than the possessive "your" (such as, well, "your thread").

Having said this, I must agree - and disagree - about our (and I include myself in this) debate about these films. Doubtless, it lets off a lot of steam on BOTH sides of the issue. Some "purists" (of which I count myself) are TOO pure and expected every little "jot and tittle" to be in the films which was unrealistic. And some "defenders" would excuse just about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Mr. Jackson has done or might do on the basis of time and money constraints and "artistic license", which is EQUALLY unrealistic.

What to do? By all means, enjoy complaining, defending and defining. It is excellent for the reasoning faculties (which we could all use and in the case of some people, get VERY little use). However, keep it LIGHT, keep it POLITE and keep it FUN and we'll ALL benefit from the mental exercise. ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

That's all right dear. I'm sure you never sent an envelope to ****burgh as I did!

Typos are particularly problematic as are grammatical nonsense when one has the ability to "edit" with word processing as opposed to the old typewriter. After one takes things out, puts things in and moves stuff around, sometimes one is left with a hodge-podge that makes it appear is if one is either totally ignorant or "'round the bend", so to speak! :p

[joxy]

Originally posted by lilhobo
....samwise raved on about complaining and bitterness for 50 lines without a full stop
Actually a lot less than 50 lines, and full of full stops - only in the wrong places!
I like the style: I believe it's known as string of thought, or train of consciousness....

[Eowyn14]

Originally posted by Sam_Gamgee
[B]... if every1 thinks it could of been done better. then do it better. and if you dont plan on doing it better dont say it should be done better because i dont see you trying. but if you do plan and doing it better do it, and if you do do it better. good job and trash PJ all you want. but if you cant do it better then PJ, then i dont see you trying so dont just sit and trash PJ and say it should of been done this way. when you couldn't do it better then him yourself. and for those of you who say it shouldn't of been done at all ... its not the point to out do tolkien or whatever. ... i dont see you trying to do it. at leats PJ had the guts to do it knowing all of you would hate him for it and nit pick everything he did.

Don't when you do the thing that you didn't do if you do then don't did the thing to do because it doesn't do the did do when you are doing it because you do not know what you do when you did that thing doesn't do what you did say that it does do what you did.

And when you did, do, the do does didn't do did ... do ... don't do do, ... did...... doesn't , did,..... do......

Do whop be diddy diddy, shoe-be do whop she-bop.

:) geeeez, man!

[Nenya Evenstar]

:confused: Is this pick on Samwise time? I mean really! I see people type incorrectly all the time (as I'm sure I do myself), but I would never correct them much less tear them apart. :confused:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Tear apart? Heavens! I pointed out a mistake in usage. If it was a "typo", then fine. However, many times we simply fail to "think out" what we are typing and so use the wrong word. It certainly wasn't meant to be anything other than an attempt to assist the thread poster and now that it has been corrected, I am sure that he is happier as well.

Please never mistake well meant, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism intended to assist with "picking on" someone. We ALL need the assistance of our fellows from time to time, else how will we ever learn and grow?