View Full Version : Two questions in Moria
Between the first shot of the Bridge and the company reaching it they have to negotiate a high narrow wall, or aqueduct, or bridge, with a gap in it, and we get the beard-grabbing incident. Is there anything like this in the book?
At the Bridge, when the Balrog's whip takes Gandalf, his staff and sword appear to fly out of his grip and to fall separately. What does the book have to say about what happened to them?
Nenya Evenstar
09-02-2002, 06:36 PM
About the bridge:
No, there is nothing in the book that goes along with that part of the movie. The only thing that is like it is when the Fellowship enters the hall from which the bridge spans.
They peered out. Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer that the one in which they had slept. They were near its eastern end; westward it ran away into darkness. Down the center stalked a double line of towering pillars. They were carved like boles of mighty trees whose boughs upheld the roof with a branching tracery of stone. Their stems were smooth and black, but a red glow was darkly mirrored in their sides Right across the floor, close to the feet of two huge pillars a great fissure had opened. Out of it a fierce red light came, and now and again flames licked at the brink and curled about the bases of the colums. Wisps of dark smoke wavered in the hot air.
"If we had come by the main road down from the upper halls, we should have been trapped here," said Gandalf. "Let us hope that the fire now lies between us and pursuit. Come! There is no time to lose."
This is the only description of a gap (as far as I can remember). However, the Fellowship does go down a long stair and through many long hallways.
About the sword and the staff:
Gandalf's staff breaks when he breaks the bridge. He is holding Glamdring when the Balrog lashes the whip around his legs, and I can only guess that he drops it in order to try to grasp the edge. So it must fall into the abyss as well.
Thanks Nenya. I thought that structure they crossed must be new, but it was done extremely well, with the sole exception of the dwarf-beard-grabbing. Has anyone seen any report of PJ's reasons for adding that scene? I also had a vague memory of the book's fire-filled fissure in the floor; it's a pity that was left out as the sfx who did the Balrog so well would surely have done it very impressively.
I seem to see the broken staff and sword both fly out of Gandalf's grip as the whip grabs him, so they must fall into the abyss before he is eventually allowed to let go of the brink, which he shouldn't really be holding on to anyway. What I was wondering was: doesn't he use the same sword (Glamdring?) later in the book, and if so how, in the book and the film, does he keep it as he falls?
Nenya Evenstar
09-02-2002, 07:47 PM
You bet. :D I do not know if Gandalf uses the same sword or not, but I will as soon as I read TTT again in about a week. If he does, my guess would be that he retrieves the sword at the bottom of the pit - the only thing I can think of.
Diamond Took
09-07-2002, 08:17 AM
It was a bit of humor added into the film, along with everything else.:D ;)
Originally posted by Diamond Took
It was a bit of humor added into the film, along with everything else.:D ;)
Just what we needed, a good laugh, as one of the main characters fell apparently to death, and left the others in despair. Trust PJ, he always knows what will please his audience!
Eledhwen
09-07-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by joxy
I seem to see the broken staff and sword both fly out of Gandalf's grip as the whip grabs him, so they must fall into the abyss before he is eventually allowed to let go of the brink, which he shouldn't really be holding on to anyway. What I was wondering was: doesn't he use the same sword (Glamdring?) later in the book, and if so how, in the book and the film, does he keep it as he falls?
In the film, Gandalf drops his sword on the bridge. It doesn't fall into the abyss, so I am looking forward to finding out what he fought the Balrog with in PJ's TTT.
Tolkien's version
We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him,
You can't hew without a blade.
Originally posted by Eledhwen
In the film, Gandalf drops his sword on the bridge. It doesn't fall into the abyss, so I am looking forward to finding out what he fought the Balrog with in PJ's TTT.
You can't hew without a blade.
I thought the sword and staff both flew out of his grasp; if the sword fell on to the bridge it wouldn't stay there long; it would bounce off into the abyss. Thanks for the quotation though- as you say he has to have a sword to do the hewing, so he must somehow manage to catch it on the way down or find it at the bottom (if there is a bottom!) -both highly improbable! Presumably the book assumes he didn't let go of it as he does in the film- probably just a slip in the film.
Nenya Evenstar
09-08-2002, 03:19 AM
Yes, there is a bottom to the chasm. Also, Gandalf does drop his sword in the book because when he falls off the bridge he "grasps vainly at the stone". I do not think that he would have only grasped with one hand because he really did want to save himself. So, in the film, that part is right. And yes, when the balrog lashes his whip around G's legs (in the movie) G lets go of his sword and his staff. In the books the staff breaks when he breaks the bridge with it.
Anamatar IV
09-08-2002, 03:39 AM
did the staff break in the movie? I saw the sword and staff fly out of g's hand and off screan. Presummebly into the abyss. In the movie they must have him catch the sword and then hew.
Nenya Evenstar
09-08-2002, 04:56 AM
No, I do not think that the staff breaks in the movie. Gandalf just drops it when he is drug into the abyss.
Anamatar IV
09-08-2002, 05:01 AM
yeah i remember-he slammed it down and it looked like he was breaking the bridge with the butt of the staff.
Nenya Evenstar
09-08-2002, 05:21 AM
Yeah, that's how it went. He then gets pulled into the pit and drops his staff and sword over the edge.
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
He then gets pulled into the pit and drops his staff and sword over the edge.
I think it was rather more as another contributor says, that the sword and staff fly out of his hands and off the screen or into the abyss.
You had an interesting point earlier in saying that the book has G grasping the stone, implicitly with both hands, so he couldn't have had his sword in his hand. Didn't he say a little earlier that fighting back and weapons were no use any longer? If so he would have sheathed his sword and it would have fallen with him intact. His staff isn't a weapon in those terms of course, and he needed it to break the bridge.
Nenya Evenstar
09-08-2002, 09:36 PM
I agree that Anamatar's description of Gandalf loses his staff and sword is better than mine - I mean just think about mine: Gandalf: "Hmm... Bye bye Balrog! Here's my sword and my staff for you to play with!" Gandalf then proceedes to drop both articles over the edge of the bridge. The Balrog then, in return for the favor, pulls the wizard over the brink. :D :D
Yes, Gandalf did say that swords were no more use. However, he does draw his sword. Here's some quotes:
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white.
and...
From out of the sadow a red sword leaped flaming. Glamdring glittered white in answer.
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Yes, Gandalf did say that swords were no more use. However, he does draw his sword. Here's some quotes:
Thanks for the quotes Nenya. G must have taken his words not to apply to himself, which is understandable enough I suppose, as he chose to face the Balrog quite alone. He would then have somehow had to hold on to it even while trying to grasp that stone as it seems he definitely needs it in his mysterious combat with the Balrog. The film understandably misses the point, and I've a feeling Tolkien slipped up a bit as well over the detail- most unusual for him!
Nenya Evenstar
09-09-2002, 12:43 AM
Hmmm... this is a hard one, but I have an even harder time believing that Tolkien slipped up...
It is not impossible for Gandalf to have let his sword go and then fallen after it. He would not have been too far behind it. Also, remember that there is water at the bottom of the chasm. If Gandalf was not too far behind his sword then he could have easily retrieved it in the water.
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I have an even harder time believing that Tolkien slipped up....remember that there is water at the bottom of the chasm....he could have easily retrieved it in the water.
Well you can imagine how hard I found it to admit that Tolkien might have slipped up! I didn't realise there is water at the bottom, but I am afraid I think that would make it harder to find the sword, not easier, unless it was very shallow! Of course what happened down there, and then up somewhere, is quite a mystery anyway.
Nenya Evenstar
09-10-2002, 06:48 AM
Yes, I can imagine that that was VERY hard for you to say. :) Well, I was thinking along the lines that since Gandalf (in reality, or in the books as one might say) fell almost immediately after his sword he could have landed in the water, swam to his sword, and retrieved it without too much problem. The water was actually quite deep. Also, Gandalf does give an account of what happened down deep in the mines in "The Two Towers" to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli.
Diamond Took
09-10-2002, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by joxy
Well you can imagine how hard I found it to admit that Tolkien might have slipped up! I didn't realise there is water at the bottom, but I am afraid I think that would make it harder to find the sword, not easier, unless it was very shallow! Of course what happened down there, and then up somewhere, is quite a mystery anyway.
lol! i can so imagine gandalf sheathing his sword as he is falling down the chasm!!!:D :D :D
Tar-Palantir
09-14-2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by joxy
Between the first shot of the Bridge and the company reaching it they have to negotiate a high narrow wall, or aqueduct, or bridge, with a gap in it, and we get the beard-grabbing incident. Is there anything like this in the book?
At the Bridge, when the Balrog's whip takes Gandalf, his staff and sword appear to fly out of his grip and to fall separately. What does the book have to say about what happened to them?
Here's a novel approach - READ THE BOOK! That'll answer a bunch of questions
:)
Anamatar IV
09-14-2002, 01:01 AM
uh oh--looks like tolkien left a gap! He made gandalf grasp at the edge and hew the balrog.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 01:23 AM
Here is how it happened - I really do not understand why Gandalf couldn't have dropped his sword!
Gandalf stood on the bridge facing the Balrog. He lifted up his staff and made the Balrog feel the flame of Undun, to which the Balrog responded by slashing Gandalf with his sword. Gandalf countered the blow with Glamdring. He then took his staff, still holding his sword in one hand, and broke the bridge causing the Balrog to fall into nothingness. The Balrog's whip lashed around G's legs and pulled him to the edge of the abyss. Gandalf let go of his staff and sword to grasp vainly at the edge, and then fell not too long after his weapons. Once he landed in the water, he swam down to retrieve his sword and staff to begin his underground battle with the Balrog.
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 03:07 AM
well gandalf hewed the balrog as he fell. Its all there. he couldnt have picked it up as he fell because its already been proven that weight does not diffinterate how fast you fall.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 04:16 PM
Where does it say that Gandalf hewed the Balrog as he fell? The Balrog was already falling when G was still on the bridge. Then G fell in. Also, he did not retrieve his sword when he was falling through air, but when he landed in the water.
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 04:44 PM
i dont have my copy with me but gandalf said the balrog BURNED HIM. Meaning they fell together. Fire does get put out in water. He said ever I hewed him and his fire was wrapped around me. It burned me. Something to that effect. Look it up.
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 05:53 PM
okay-i was wrong that time-he did not hew as he fell. But gandalf said that the water froze his heart. If it was that cold would he really swim down to get his sword?
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
But gandalf said that the water froze his heart. If it was that cold would he really swim down to get his sword?
Sorry, I just can't imagine G swimming at all, let alone searching in murky depths for anything!
This isn't a game of find the quoit in a nice warm, well-lit swimming pool.
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 09:22 PM
I opt for re-posting this topic in the Lord of the Ring Thread. Weve already established that the sword and staff coming out of gandalfs hands are not PJs creation so lets put it in the lord of the rings. Grond will probably give us a few quotes, people will argue, yada yada yada.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 10:34 PM
Sound good! I'll make my appearance or post a thread if it isn't already made (which I'm sure it is). BTW, thanks Anamatar for looking that up yourself! I was preparing to type out all the quotes, but you saved me from having to do it. :D
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 10:40 PM
i doubt its been posted. *scolws* i hate making peoples lives easier!
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 10:49 PM
Ok, I'll post it. Nenya laughs at Anamatar and decides that it was good for him to have to look up the stuff - obviously he needs to learn that helping people is a good thing. :D
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 10:59 PM
well why do zoo keepers tell you not to feed animals? Because they get lazy! They cant do anythign for themslelvs if you keep doing things for them!
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:11 PM
Was that supposed to hurt? :p First of all I'm not an animal, and second of all I'm not lazy (except for at the moment because I can't drag myself away from this forum - weekends are too good to miss!).
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 11:18 PM
yeah-are you ever gonna post this in LOTR or am i gonna have to?
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:31 PM
SORRY!!!! Looks like Anamatar bites too! I just posted it a second ago - I've got a lot to do on this forum.
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 11:34 PM
*sigh* i posted mine like 10 minutes ago. Trouble in moria i calls it.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:37 PM
Nenya sighs too. Don't do anything to yours - I'll delete mine.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:40 PM
Wait - the thing doesn't allow me to delete it. It says that I don't have access to the page. Have any ideas?
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 11:44 PM
delete the other posts first.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:48 PM
That means you have to delete your post too.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:50 PM
It still won't let me do anything - why don't you mention something in your thread about the double thing and ask a Mod. to delete my thread?
Anamatar IV
09-15-2002, 11:53 PM
go to the bottom of ur post and where it says report to mod click that. Write that its a double and that youd like it deleted.
Nenya Evenstar
09-15-2002, 11:58 PM
What about the whole thing that says in red letters:
This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.
Don't think that's the way to go. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if a mod puts the two together. I'm going to mention it in my thread.
Anamatar IV
09-16-2002, 12:12 AM
eh. Worked on other forums. Just pm a mod or something. Doesnt really matter.
Ariana Undomiel
09-19-2002, 12:22 AM
In the books I don't think that Gandalf was supposed to have let go of his sword because as he fell he fell in the clutches of the Balrog and was forever hewing at him with his sword. So that is another error in the film.
~Ariana
Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
In the books I don't think that Gandalf was supposed to have let go of his sword because as he fell he fell in the clutches of the Balrog and was forever hewing at him with his sword. So that is another error in the film.
The way the sword and staff go flying through the air in the film does lead to some doubts about it being shown that way. It leaves G without the sword that he uses later, and I don't think the solution that has been suggested, that he swims after it when he reaches the bottom, really "holds much water"!
Nenya Evenstar
09-21-2002, 12:21 AM
It leaves G without the sword that he uses later, and I don't think the solution that has been suggested, that he swims after it when he reaches the bottom, really "holds much water"!
LoL joxy! I believe that I am the proud originator of that theory... ;) Couldn't help but post something about your pun which is so nice to my poor opinion... :D Please come join the threads in The Lord of the Rings forum titled "The Mysterious Dissapearance of Glamdring-Foe Hammer" and "Trouble in Moria" (if you haven't already). You're input would be most gladly accepted! Hope to see you there...
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
LoL joxy! I believe that I am the proud originator of that theory... ;
Thank you Nenya! It's nice to be appreciated, and....
Yes you were, and you have every right to be proud of it!
I'll be glad to take up your generous invitation!
Nenya Evenstar
09-21-2002, 12:52 AM
Great! I'll look forward to seeing you there! :)
mr underhill
09-27-2002, 11:32 PM
im annoyed at how slow the balrog is in the movie... he takes ages to get to the fellowship..
Nenya Evenstar
09-30-2002, 04:09 PM
It's kind of like that in the book too....
TheFool
09-30-2002, 05:40 PM
Just a note on the original post: there is a bit in the BBC radio adaptation where the Fellowship have to jump across a chasm (before they get to Balin's tomb etc). I think this is used in both the radio play and the film to beef up character interactions, e.g. trust
Originally posted by TheFool
....there is a bit in the BBC radio adaptation where the Fellowship have to jump across a chasm....I think this is used in both the radio play and the film to beef up character interactions, e.g. trust
There's plenty of Tolkien's own material to show character interactions if they'd bothered to look for it and use it.
Luckily, the invention is done very well though, apart from the couple of lines they force on to Gimli, and it goes towards making everything after the tomb chamber very effective and dramatic. I wish ALL the inventions were as good as that.
Check out the new trailer for Two Towers...We see Gandalf falling with the balrog, with sword in hand. Whatever the last movie showed when he fell, he's got the sword as he falls. As it should be, I think. Gandalf can't be without Glamdring. How he got it back doesn't matter...he's a wizard. If a jedi can pull a lightsaber to his hand from across the room, so can Gandalf. :)
TheFool
10-01-2002, 10:21 PM
More puzzling than the sword issue is how he manages to hold onto a 90degree stone ledge with his fingertips and, like, 40 tons of fiery balrog wrapped round his ankles:D
Anamatar IV
10-02-2002, 11:12 PM
but in the movie the balrog didnt exactly pull him. He knocked him to the edge and if you looked, the whip was not on his ankles. And there was a little higher ledge a bit away from the bridge. Yah.
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