Debates

[Ceorl]

How do we put ourselves forward to participate in a new debate?

I am desperate to debate now, I was reading through the Goldberry debate and absolutely itching to put in my own 10 cents. For instance Grond could have said that... oh whoops lol.

Oh yes and how are we going to be able to improve our rank? could we maybe make it so that to get a new rank we have to debate against a person with that rank and either win or else do very well?

[Ponte]

I can debate you now.
Choose something to debate about.

[Ceorl]

damn that was quick. look at the times, 3 minutes lol.

If i choose a topic can we debate tomorrow I have to go to bed? or how about you choose a topic and I will reply tomorroe if I can.

[Ponte]

You can choose a topic and then we can dabate tomorrow.

[Ceorl]

lol I know this is rather Cliche but; did Balrogs have wings?

you choose a side, if you want to change the topic please do I couldn't think of a better one very quickly.

[Ponte]

I choose that they have wings, but we could have a topic about if Feanor would leave Valinor even if Finwe hadn't married Indis.

[Ceorl]

That is not a bad topic but there is just no evidence for or against the topic. The debate would degenrate into personal opinions being voiced.

ok so can we debate tomorrow? 5:30 GMT? On Balrogs.

damn I really have to go now.

[Ponte]

It's a deal.

Good night Ceorl.

[Grond]

Sorry to rain on your party people but debates are structured and planned. We don't just start a debate in the guild. What you two can do is to organize our first intraguild debate. We will begin this next Friday so the two of you need to decide what topic is to be debated. Balrogs and Wings is a poor choice as there are currently several threads on the subject in the Forum. Please take your time and put on your thinking caps and come up with a more unique subject to debate. Since the two of you are so anxious to debate, I will allow each of you to be Captain of the teams which will be formed.

Now, get together and "hammer" out the details of the topic.

[Maedhros]

My, my, the anxiouness to debate is wonderful. But if you think that the debate between Anc and Grond is good, you will die when I show you the other debates.;)
I have to warn or guildmembers that some individuals see debates as things completely uncalled for. And goes to the lenght of calling debaters "flamers".

[Ceorl]

Sweeeet. Ok damn well, sorry it was my topic but I couldn't think of anything too quickly. Am looking for a new topic now.

[Nóm]

I read somewhere bfore that our Guild status will be used to determine which debates we will be involved in. I have a question about this...
It seems to me that with Any topic a person would be at a big disadvantage if they have not read most if not all of Tolkien's books. For example, I've read The Lord of the Rings several times and know it pretty well, but certainly almost any topic of debate from that book would involve knowing/researching other writings such as HoME.
I've LOVE to debate but honestly I don't think I am ready to do so seriously or as a representative of this Guild. Are there really going to be topics for someone who knows only The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit well, with only moderate Silmarillion knowledge, and nearly none from HoME or UT?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Confusticated
I read somewhere bfore that our Guild status will be used to determine which debates we will be involved in. I have a question about this...
It seems to me that with Any topic a person would be at a big disadvantage if they have not read most if not all of Tolkien's books. For example, I've read The Lord of the Rings several times and know it pretty well, but certainly almost any topic of debate from that book would involve knowing/researching other writings such as HoME.
I've LOVE to debate but honestly I don't think I am ready to do so seriously or as a representative of this Guild. Are there really going to be topics for someone who knows only The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit well, with only moderate Silmarillion knowledge, and nearly none from HoME or UT? Absolutely. We will have specific debates with specific topics. One of the challenges will be to argue a debate based only on the works published during the author's lifetime. So some debates will fit exactly into your level of experience Confusticated. You will be as expert as all of us. :)

[Ponte]

Originally posted by Grond
Please take your time and put on your thinking caps and come up with a more unique subject to debate. Since the two of you are so anxious to debate, I will allow each of you to be Captain of the teams which will be formed.

I and Ceorl have decided to take the topic about if Sauron had a body or not at the time of the war of the ring.

[Lhunithiliel]

URGENT !!!!!

Hey, Buu, would you like to help me - as your Guild-mate, in a discussion about the form of Sauron? It is in the LOTR-section and is called "Sauron's eye" (Sorry, I dont't know how this "magic" with the direct connection from a post to a thread is done! :confused: )

Or, of course, if you do not share my opinion, then you can at least have the satisfaction to discuss a topic which is (as I see) one of interest to you! Join me!

[Ponte]

I have already posted in that thread and I shall try to help you.

[Nóm]

Alright Team B...how are we going to work this out, I have never debated in a group. Shall we PM eachother with our ideas and see who'se we will go with? Then perhaps we can all hunt down our evidence and come up with our reasons and send them to eachother in PM, then as each team has their turn to post, we will collaberate in secret to see which materiel will be used, and who will post it?

I have an arguement ready that I can send to eaach of you if you wish, so you can pick through to see what if any of it you would like to use in the debate?

This seems complicated having nowhere to talk in secret as a group...

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, Confusticated, we are in one and the same team! :p :D

Now, I think we should exchange PM-s, of course but mostly to ask for advice (f.ex. - where to search for quotes etc.) or share some thoughts that a member of the team is about to post but isn't completely sure about it.
Things like that!

Or, we somehow devide (like in the sports teams) and watch over a respective member from the other team - and of course helping the others from our team if and when needed.

Now, I suugest that if you are ready with an argument - start the Debate and organization will come a bit later when we actually see how it is going on.
I am also ready to post my opinion but it will be later today.

GOOD LUCK! :) :) :)

[Nóm]

I do not want to start the debate without the permission of everyone? I wouldnt want to get us off in a different direction than other team members are thinking of going in. There is probably some rule about this?
Hopefully more members of our team will respond before too long..

[Lhunithiliel]

But although I said I'd post later today, I am READY NOW!!!!!!
Should I start? And you follow, or you -first and I'll follow?

[Mithlond]

Hey you two :)
Well if both of you have arguments ready, i dont see any problem with PMing each other and getting this debate started.
When i have time tomorrow i will begin research on the subject, but i will look over what you two have posted first just to make sure we dont double up on certain areas.

Good luck to both teams, this should be alot of fun!

[Nóm]

I had a different angle than Lhunithiliel, one she didnt exaclty agree with so I Didnt post it, if any other team B would like to see it let me know. You may dig something new or useful out of it..:D

[Eledhwen]

Interesting ... a debate about how to debate. I think the key must be simplicity, or communication may break down. Also, someone has to be in charge, both overall (a referee, to deal with clinches etc.) and of each team.

[Nóm]

For the debate question are we s'posed to assume what it would be like for men is they were allowed in Aman? (Which is what I thought at first) Or just base this on how things actually were, what was Aman for the men not being in Aman?

[Lhunithiliel]

I have a question about the Debate too!

Maedhros, I can't exactly figure out what Dagor-Nuin-Giliath has to do with Men's conditions in Aman? Please, understand me correctly - I am confused. This battle, is the Second of the Battles for Belleriand (I remembered this fact with combing through the book and with some help from "The Encyclopedia of Arda"-site, I admit). Anyway, wasn't it the battle of Feanor with Morgoth which brought Feanor's death? Then, what does Feanor have to do with Men in Aman....unless of course we take the "long road", meaning : "what was the influence of this battle for the further course of the history".....
Or, is the name of this battle meant to be a TITLE of the debate? :confused: :confused:

[Nóm]

I took it to be the title of our Debate...:D

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I have a question about the Debate too!

Maedhros, I can't exactly figure out what Dagor-Nuin-Giliath has to do with Men's conditions in Aman? Please, understand me correctly - I am confused. This battle, is the Second of the Battles for Belleriand (I remembered this fact with combing through the book and with some help from "The Encyclopedia of Arda"-site, I admit). Anyway, wasn't it the battle of Feanor with Morgoth which brought Feanor's death? Then, what does Feanor have to do with Men in Aman....unless of course we take the "long road", meaning : "what was the influence of this battle for the further course of the history".....
Or, is the name of this battle meant to be a TITLE of the debate? :confused: :confused: It is only the title of the debate and has nothing to do with the subject. The debate between Anc and me was Dagor Aglareb whic was the first battle in Sil, and Dagor Nuin-Gileath would simply be the next battle in the line of Elf battles in the Sil. :) Maedhros is simply following the formula we began in the first debate. (I think.) ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

URGENT!!!!

To TEAM "A" in the current dabate

Dear guild-fellows, WE ARE HAVING A DEBATE GOING ON!!!!
Why are so passive? So far ONLY two of your team have participated.
If we want this guild to prosper and become one of the most visited, most read and most interesing - WE are the ones to do this!
How?
By ACTIVELY participating!

Common! Team "B" is awaiting for a good and interesting debate with strong arguments to discuss on!!! :rolleyes:

[pohuist]

Maedros, wasn't there supposed to be a new debate topic, etc. each Friday?

[Grond]

Okay.... We haven't finished judging the last debate. We have to be careful about getting spread too thin. Anyone who wants to host a debate within the guild may do so after contacting myself of Maedhros. Then pick teams (make sure they are effective members on both sides) and start a new thread.

I would propose that the next debate topic be "Is the Ring Sentient" or in simpler terms (Can the Ring Think?)

pohuist, if you would be so kind as to begin a thread in the guild section and run the debate.

[gate7ole]

Very interesting topic Grond. I'm already thinking some arguments for and against it. As I don't know the whole procedure, I hope someone more experienced started and gave the appropriate instructions

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Grond
Okay.... We haven't finished judging the last debate. We have to be careful about getting spread too thin. Anyone who wants to host a debate within the guild may do so after contacting myself of Maedhros. Then pick teams (make sure they are effective members on both sides) and start a new thread.

I would propose that the next debate topic be "Is the Ring Sentient" or in simpler terms (Can the Ring Think?)

pohuist, if you would be so kind as to begin a thread in the guild section and run the debate.

Whoops:) Spoke too soon.
OK, please PM me or post the full list of Guild Members, I will pick the teams and host the debate.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Dear Pohuist,
Could you take note of my suggestion that I posted on the voting poll for the last debate?It is only a suggestion,but I feel that it may well prove to be an improvement.
If not,well it is still early day's for our guild and another system better suited to our need's may present itself.

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Dwimmerlaik
Dear Pohuist,
Could you take note of my suggestion that I posted on the voting poll for the last debate?It is only a suggestion,but I feel that it may well prove to be an improvement.
If not,well it is still early day's for our guild and another system better suited to our need's may present itself.

The topic was already given by Grond. I am sure that your suggestion will be included in the future debates.

Grond, I need a list of members with ranks to pick up the teams and judges.

[Grond]

There is a member list located in two places in the Apply Here! thread... but I have created a separate thread that will be used strictly for this purpose. It is located here!!! (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6303)

Note that it is a sticky thread (always on top) and is closed (no posting allowed except by me). Any member may always check the current membership on it.

[pohuist]

Yes, I've seen it. Thank you.

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Grond
Okay.... We haven't finished judging the last debate. We have to be careful about getting spread too thin. Anyone who wants to host a debate within the guild may do so after contacting myself of Maedhros. Then pick teams (make sure they are effective members on both sides) and start a new thread.

I would propose that the next debate topic be "Is the Ring Sentient" or in simpler terms (Can the Ring Think?)

pohuist, if you would be so kind as to begin a thread in the guild section and run the debate.

Grond, I opened the new debate. Could you please make it sticky for some time. I will open the poll once the debate is over next Thursday or so.

[Nóm]

I just want to let the guild know that I have Aim, ICQ(though I never use it!:D) and MS Messenger, so team members can get ahold of me to discuss anything during debates.
MS: ofevolution@hotmail.com
PM me for AIM handle, or ICQ#.

[Mithlond]

Awww, i only ever use ICQ. :(

[Nóm]

Well I don't use it because I've never had to, but if someone wants to discuss something with me I will use it. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it..:D

[Khamul]

MSN Khamul56@hotmail.com

[Nóm]

You what is just as bad as trying to work in teams without having a place where all can converse in secret? It is having to resist the temptation to come back at everything the other team says!:D It is still fun in a group but I wonder...Are their any plans for the apprentices and journeymen to ever have one on one debates?:D

[Grond]

originally posted by Confusticated
...It is still fun in a group but I wonder...Are their any plans for the apprentices and journeymen to ever have one on one debates?We will be having debates in the future with no more than four man teams. We will also have some one on one debates. Who did you have in mind? Anyone interested in participating in a one on one debate of someone of their rank... please post here.

[Nóm]

LOL..I didn't have anyone in mind. If I could choose though, I would pick nenya Evenstar. I think she thinks a lot like I do and would be good competition for me...we also have a similar amount of knowledge. :D
What do you say Nenya?..;)

[Grond]

Confusticated, I am leaving for vacation tomorrow and won't be back for a week. Your challenge to Nenya will be one of the first issues I take up when I return. I'll be thinking of a topic from the LotR or Hobbit and we'll get it setup in one week.

And everyone, don't forget to write your Essays. :) I haven't got the other prizes yet but their will be a total of five. Two will be chosen randomly from the membership and three will be given away for the essay winners. :)

[Nenya Evenstar]

What do I say? I say that I am thrilled and excited to accept the offer of my esteemed guild member. I would love to debate with you, and I'm looking forward with great expectations to next week. :D

[Nóm]

Attention team A - The ring can think...
I've been hogging the debate a little so I am going to stay out until my ending arguement.
Feel free to PM me about anything though.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Confusticated, I believe that you may want to stay in the debate for a while longer... it doesn't appear that many Team A members are participating. We'd sure like you to... :)

[Nóm]

I will come back if I need to but the debate will last for a few days and some members are not online as much as I am. I want them to have a chance to make some good points and to rip apart the points of Team B.
Don't get me wrong...I would not mind stepping back in. I'm just giving it some time.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I gotcha! I'll probably have to exercize some of the same restraint on myself in the next few days. Just as long as you join in if not many of the people of Team A post...

[Nóm]

It is hard to refrain sometimes. The good news is that we have a 1 on 1 coming up. *rubs hands together in excitement* You and I will have to hold back nothing!!!:D


I wonder if any other guild members preffer 1 on 1 to such big teams? Even the 4 on 4 that Grond speaks of sounds better than what we have now.

[Nenya Evenstar]

That's a fact! *Nenya, as she has said earlier, can hardly stop herself from bouncing off the walls in anticipation of her debate with Confusticated* ;)

I don't know - the smaller the team the more uniform all the member's thoughts can be. That's the nice thing about one-on-one. You can use ALL your own thoughts without the worry of having to support the thoughts of someone you don't agree with.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, and how about GIRLS vs. BOYS ?

:D Kidding!

Nenya and my Elf friend, I'm looking forward to your one-to-one debate!
Good luck to both of you!:p
-----------------
TO ALL GUILD-MATES
Have you read about the debate proposed by Ancalagon and his guild?
I have checked. They have already formed up their team. I have no idea what our Guildmaster will do about our team when he returns, but I'd suggest that we ALL check on the opponents.... meaning reading their posts in the threads etc. You know that old saying - "Know your enemy better than your friend!" :p
Lhun
Oh, the members of thier team are:
1. Tar-Elenion
2. Rangerdave
3. Arvedui
4. Ancalagon

[Nóm]

I used Eru's creation of Elves as an example in the debate without thinking twice about it. It wasn't until someone gave a reply that required I check in The Silmarillion for something that it hit me. I realised that we can only use LOTR and The Hobbit in this debate. It completely slipped my mind. I deleted the example I gave which used Eru. A member of Team B has also made refference to Melkor and the Valar. I know Melkor is mentioned in LOTR but not much is said of him and nothing is Said of the Valar.
Anyhow, I think everyone who has mentioned things from The Silmarillion should remove it...or maybe we can let the judges decide. Anyhow my Eru refference is gone.

[Maedhros]

I have seen the other team, and the ones that worry me are Tar-Elenion and Ancalagon. I have not seen much of the post of the other two so I cannot know for certain.
I have often debated with Anc, so I kind of used to it, but I am looking foward to what Tar-Elenion will do.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Based on the ranks given in our Guild, Anc would be a "Master", I see Tar-Elenion could also be called a so. What do you know about the level of knowledge in Tolkien of the others?
Is their whole team made of "Masters"?
Meaning - have they ALL read not only the three main books but also UT and HoME?

[Nóm]

Team A!!
We have a few things that need to be replied to. I can not do it because it would require a very long post or a double or triple post. If anyone wants my thoughts on what to include go ahead and PM me.

[gate7ole]

Now that the debate has officially ended, I’d like to congratulate all people who participated. It was a great discussion, and it gave me the opportunity to understand better some events of the War of the Ring. It is true that only by discussing something with others, can you delve into ambiguous matters and reach to a conclusion (or to reach to the conclusion that there is no conclusion!). Well done again to everyone and may the best win!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yes, thank you everyone for a great and fun first debate (for me)! Good luck to both teams.... ;)

[gate7ole]

I just read the debate between Maedhros and Gothmog.
I suggest everyone read it. It's very insightful.
Also, I believe the Maedhros was superior. The debate was difficult and not many quotes can be found on the subject, so the arguments are vague and mostly assumptions. Thus, the winner should use his arts in debating as well as his knowledge. There was a balance throughout the debate, but some statements of Maedhros (like the letter) were undisputable. Also, there discrimination between Peredhil and elves (so as to explain the quote that "Legolas was the only elf) was a wise move, that I admit would never cross my mind. Finally, Gothmog, finding no reason whatsoever why the sons of Elrond would want to stay in ME, lost the critical points.
So, my vote goes to Maedhros.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Hey, and how about GIRLS vs. BOYS ?

:D Kidding! If this were to happen among the apprentices and journeymen the boys wouldn't stand a chance. We'd have to let them throw in an expert..;)...maybe a Master..:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Just you wait to see what gate7ole will say when he sees your post!:D

[gate7ole]

Confusticated, I was very puzzled when I read your post. I read it again and again and I couldn’t get you. Then I understood what was wrong. I thought you were a guy! Really, all the time, during all those PM exchanges, I was considering you male. After this post, I checked a previous thread and guess what, you’re FEMALE! So, the two most active members of the guild (besides the 2 Masters) are females (Confust. And Lunithiniel! We, guys, should be ashamed.
As for the Girls vs Boys debate, I don’t know. With Confusticated on the other side, it will be difficult. Milena is I think female, I don’t know about Nenya. If she is female too, then… There aren’t many other Journeymans and Apprentices that are active. But I can only assure you that I will give my best if and when this debate is established. Even alone I will stand up against 4-5 females and be certain that I will fight to the end. And I want fail easily.
Any male willing to help the situation? Come on guys we are losing the domination here!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yes, gate7ole, I am female. :) I can assure you that all guys involved in this debate (if and whenever it happens) will be running by the time it's finished. ;)

[gate7ole]

OK, challenge accepted.
Communicate with Grond and name the day and subject.
I tried to be equal to both genres and you started the feministic statements. I have to protect the honor of men!

It would help if the debate was of a similar matter.
e.g. Why almost every great deed was done by males (elves or men)?:D

[Nóm]

Originally posted by gate7ole
....I don’t know. With Confusticated on the other side, it will be difficult. Milena is I think female, I don’t know about Nenya. If she is female too, then… There aren’t many other Journeymans and Apprentices that are active. But I can only assure you that I will give my best if and when this debate is established. Even alone I will stand up against 4-5 females and be certain that I will fight to the end. And I want fail easily.
Any male willing to help the situation? Come on guys we are losing the domination here!

Thanks for the compliment. Honestly, I do not want to have a male vs female debate though. That's not to say that I think you guys shouldn't: just that I will not be on the female team.

[Lhunithiliel]

Gate7ole: OK, challenge accepted. Confusticated: Honestly, I do not want to have a male vs female debate though. That's not to say that I think you guys shouldn't: just that I will not be on the female team.
Hey...Wait!!! It was just a funny thought! :p
But, gate7ole, if you insist..... ;)

Oh, Confusticated, why wouldn't you take part? Just curious...:p

[Nóm]

1) if there were a debate of 1 against 3,4 or more..I would want to be the 1.
2) I don't want to group myself of the basis of my gender in this forum

[gate7ole]

I from my part, don’t mind about forgetting such a debate. I agree with Confusticated that we should leave the gender discrimination out of this forum.
But then, I expect that all posts of the kind:

I can assure you that all guys involved in this debate (if and whenever it happens) will be running by the time it's finished.

will disappear. Otherwise I would have to answer them by a debate.
Let’s continue the mixed groups of debate.

[Nóm]

That is true gate7ole, so I'll do on record stating clearly: this post by me was a Joke.
Originally posted by Confusticated
If this were to happen among the apprentices and journeymen the boys wouldn't stand a chance. We'd have to let them throw in an expert..;)...maybe a Master..:D

[Maedhros]

I agree with Confusticated that we should leave the gender discrimination out of this forum.
When you talk about discrimination, do you mean in the guild or the entire forum?
How about other types of discrimination?
This guild, as far as I know, is based against discrimination. Unlike other places, we will not separte people because of their gender, beliefs, age, etc. What only matter here is that you love and appreciate the works of Tolkien. Other aspects are irrelevant in this place.
I truly despise other places who have such rules, it's their right to have them, yet I still think that they are wrong and have no place in a forum where the discussions of JRRT is the common trait that we all share. Call me an idealist or a fool, but that is my belief.

[gate7ole]

Maedhros, all you say are true. There is one common characteristic that binds us in together in this guild and it's the love for Tolkien's work.

Ah, and Confustic. your new avatar is good.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I can assure you that all guys involved in this debate (if and whenever it happens) will be running by the time it's finished. ;)

And, to echo Confusticated's remark, my quote here was just a joke as well. Hence the little winking face.

. Even alone I will stand up against 4-5 females and be certain that I will fight to the end. And I want fail easily.

Just couldn't leave something like this without saying anything. :D The only reason I would have a debate that was boys against girls would be to prove that the girls are just as good at debating as the boys are.

[Maedhros]

What does being male or female affect your abilities as a debator?:confused:

[Khamul]

Nothing at all.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Absolutely nothing. I just felt that the conversation was vearing towards the direction that boys were better debators than girls. I don't believe that, and set about the prove it.

[Nóm]

Okay, I know this question in a little "out there"...but will there ever be debates where someone can take on a person of a different rank. Such as a journeyman going against a Master. I do not see how this should matter as long as the topic is within the the jjourneyman's knowledge...Anything from The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion. If the debate is limited to those books, as was the "new debate" by pohuist..It doesn't seem to matter, since having irrelevant knowledge does not increase one's ability to debate. It's okay if we can not do this, I am just curious.

[Maedhros]

Okay, I know this question in a little "out there"...but will there ever be debates where someone can take on a person of a different rank. Such as a journeyman going against a Master.
Ohhhhhhhh, does someone want to take a shot at me then?:) I think that it's fair to restrict the subject to only one book so that the debate would be in equal terms.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Ohhhhhhhh, does someone want to take a shot at me then?:) I think that it's fair to restrict the subject to only one book so that the debate would be in equal terms.
"ohhhhhh, does someone want to take a shot at me then?"
You know good and well that I want to go up against you! :D

and PS: nenya and I wil be debating first. I know Grond is busy righ tnow, so it may be awhile before this happens. Take my word though Maedhros...I look forward to this.

[Maedhros]

Take my word though Maedhros...I look forward to this.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, anyone else wants a shot at me.:)

[gate7ole]

It is surely a challenge to debate with Maedhros. He seemed very strong at the debate with Gothmog. I wouldn't mind trying my knowledge against him. In fact it would be very interesting. But not at the time. The debates need much time in search and at I'm giving my semester exams at univ. so...

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, anyone else wants a shot at me.:)
Hey, are you looking for smbd. "ELSE" in particular? ;) :p

[Maedhros]

No. Just checking. I thought that if one member wanted to debate me, then perhaps others would feel the same way.;)

[Khamul]

Maedhros vs. all?

[Lhunithiliel]

Aha! Then, if you seem to be the most desirable opponent , you deserve to pick your opponent yourself! Right? ;)
Well?
------------
Oh, and Sting, haven't you heard the news? Narya is ALIVE AND KICKING and ROCKING! THANKS GOD! So, you may already wipe away that sad line and sad face from your signature, you know... :)

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Okay, I know this question in a little "out there"...but will there ever be debates where someone can take on a person of a different rank. Such as a journeyman going against a Master. I do not see how this should matter as long as the topic is within the the jjourneyman's knowledge...Anything from The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion. If the debate is limited to those books, as was the "new debate" by pohuist..It doesn't seem to matter, since having irrelevant knowledge does not increase one's ability to debate. It's okay if we can not do this, I am just curious.

I don't think there's such thing as an 'irrelevant knowledge'. I think that even if debate is limited to certain books, the person of higher rank would have an advantage because of
1. Most of the threads in this forum are a debate more or less. The persons with more knowledge could (theoretically) participate in more threads, consequently having more experience as a debater.
2. Having read more, persons with higher rank can compare different works of Tolkien on the same subject/time gaining deeper understanding of a certain character/event. (Example: reading LOTR about Shelob gives deeper understanding on spiders in Mirkwood in the Hobbit).

[I am not considering any outside experience, only forum participation. Someone being a member of a high school debate team is probably a better debater than someone who is not, as a lawyer is probably a better debater than an investment banker].

Finally, I think it will be more beneficial for the guild as a whole that those journeymen (and journeywomen ;) :) ) having an 'itch' first take on some experts (especially those who have yet to post in the frame of this guild). This will hopefully increase participation by more members (I can't imagine an expert not answering a challenge by a journeman) and give Maedhros some space for administrative duties.

[Lhunithiliel]

I, personally, would prefer, whatever the debate is, to include more books. This gives me a stronger motive to read the other works by Tolkien. And it is so very true that broadening the horizons is only very good for us and our knowldge!
What Confusticated meant (I suppose) was that perhaps some Journeymen/women have not access to these other Tolkien books, while the H, LOTR and the Silm are quite popular and accessible.
Yet, on the other hand, we have the reading-discussions aimed at a closer and a more detailed look at one book only. Right? Therefore, it would be good if the debates cover more than one.

.......and give Maedhros some space for administrative duties.
Poor Maedhros! Why don't you give him the chance to participate in debates WITHIN our guild? :( He is a gentleman enough as to be tollerant to an opponant of a lower rank! ;) I have seen him open threads out of the guild and I have read his posts ...OUT of the guild... and I have read his debates OUT of the guild! So, why are you "chasing" him away by saying that the only thing he could be involved with HERE is as an "Administrator"!!! :(

[pohuist]

I cannot chase him (or anybody else for that matter) away. I simply suggested a thing that I think is more beneficial for the guild. Of course, Maehdros, being a gentleman would accept the debate. But how about trying to shake some of them experts:D out of sleep.

[Grond]

And I have just bought six more hardbacks at auction at a very reasonable price. I already have all but two that are in the lot... so can anyone guess what the other two prizes might be.

Heck, if you remain members of this guild, in a few years, you may end up with an entire collection of Tolkien's works and not have to spend a penny. :)

[pohuist]

I don't think I could wait this long:D
The other two, I suppose, will be 2 other volumes of HoME.
Where do you find this auctions, anyway?

[Khamul]

Oops, forgot to change that.:eek:

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Yet, on the other hand, we have the reading-discussions aimed at a closer and a more detailed look at one book only. Right? Therefore, it would be good if the debates cover more than one.
Not exactly, the reading discussion will involve some parts of different HOME books to have a more detail discussion of the matter.
I'm pleased at your kind opinions of ME, but for the record, I think that all of you should look at something that a "personal friend" said of me:
Originally posted by *******
Maedrhos was a jerk plain and simple. While he had a passion for the Silmarillion (and who doesn't?), he was really looking for an arguement deep down. His posts were all fine and dandy, but he is one of those people who get some sort of sick pleasure out of having a long-winded raging "debate" where the only sentiment is flaming the other person. The guy is a flamer.:(
So, there you have it, both sides of the story.
:(

[Lhunithiliel]

Pohuist: But how about trying to shake some of them experts out of sleep
Hey, EXPERT, WAKE UP ! WAKE UP! :D :D
------------------
Maedhros, as for your duality , aren't we all in the same position? You can not please everyone! With us you have behaved like a gentleman .... SO FAR ;) :p :D .
If that person did not like you for some reason, it's probably his fault to bring out the devil in you.
----------------------
Speaking about debates and kinds of them, why don't we organize a "referendum" about it? Let's say we make a poll with a few options of kinds of debates and vote. We shall then see what kind of debates to have in the future and everyone can pick up the kind that most suits his/her desire.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by pohuist
I don't think there's such thing as an 'irrelevant knowledge'. I think that even if debate is limited to certain books, the person of higher rank would have an advantage because of
1. Most of the threads in this forum are a debate more or less. The persons with more knowledge could (theoretically) participate in more threads, consequently having more experience as a debater.
2. Having read more, persons with higher rank can compare different works of Tolkien on the same subject/time gaining deeper understanding of a certain character/event. (Example: reading LOTR about Shelob gives deeper understanding on spiders in Mirkwood in the Hobbit).
I agree with point 2. Meadhros surely knows LOTR and The Hobbit better than I do because he might have read them more times than I, plus he may have read them after reading HoME and The Silmarillion and therefore picked up more in his readings. I have not read LOTR or The Hobbit since I read The Silmarillion. Maedhros surely has an advantage over me in this aspect: However, even among journeyman this thing holds true, (not all journey have the same amount of knowledge/understanding)so it doesn't make THAT much more difference.
With Point 1 I completely disagree. You can not base someone's "debate experience" upon the amount of Tolkien debates that they have engaged in. People debate about other things in life.

I am not considering any outside experience, only forum participation. Someone being a member of a high school debate team is probably a better debater than someone who is not, as a lawyer is probably a better debater than an investment banker].

I see that you have considered this.

Finally, I think it will be more beneficial for the guild as a whole that those journeymen (and journeywomen ;) :) ) having an 'itch' first take on some experts (especially those who have yet to post in the frame of this guild). This will hopefully increase participation by more members (I can't imagine an expert not answering a challenge by a journeman) and give Maedhros some space for administrative duties. [/B]
I decided that I will not debate Maedhros within this Guild. I was actualy speaking with him on MSN when I told him that I'd like to debate with him, and I honestly was not even thinking of the guild when I did. However: I can image an expert or master denying a journeyman a debate. I would not debate (1 on 1) some of our apprentices unless they really really wanted to debate against me in specific.
I will just let Grond and Maedhros figure the debates out and I will not ask to debate someone of higher rank again. There's plenty good competition among the Journeyman. Once we journeyman read UT we can test to become an expert anyhow.

[pohuist]

I was just thinking, since I haven't seen some experts post at all, maybe they at least answer a debate challenge.

[gate7ole]

I have to agree that the actual percentage of participation in the guild is about 50%. Which means that the other half don't post, don't debate, don't interfere. This doesn't happen only with experts. Many journeymen also don't participate. Well, this is their choice, we cannot blame anyone for not being active.
I'm only curious how many sent an essay, since there is a prize concerning this happening, and not just a debate;)

[Grond]

As Guildmaster, I hate to be this way, but if people do not contribute, they will be stripped of their affiliation. We are an active guild and as such won't be used to have neat avatars and a neat title in your sig. I am going to post a similar message in the apply now thread and PM any members who are not participating to inform them that they better get involved.

There are certainly reasons outside of TTF that may cause some people not to be able to contribute right now. Several members have pmed me to advise that they are hard and heavy into school right now but will be contributing in the near future. As long as they stay in touch and contribute within the next month or so that will be fine. For those who aren't doing anything (including my son :)) they will need to at least post now and again. ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
As Guildmaster, I hate to be this way, but if people do not contribute, they will be stripped of their affiliation. We are an active guild and as such won't be used to have neat avatars and a neat title in your sig. I am going to post a similar message in the apply now thread and PM any members who are not participating to inform them that they better get involved.

There are certainly reasons outside of TTF that may cause some people not to be able to contribute right now. Several members have pmed me to advise that they are hard and heavy into school right now but will be contributing in the near future. As long as they stay in touch and contribute within the next month or so that will be fine. For those who aren't doing anything (including my son :)) they will need to at least post now and again. ;)

Oh, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Master, don't cast me away!
I was absent for 10 days or so, I admit, but I have already explained why. Besides, TTF gives me an extraordinary joy and satisfaction and "food" for the mind! I love the little everyday-talks, the discussions, the debates....just everything...and most of all - the people!
I feel you ALL as my friends, you know :p :D

[Maedhros]

Grond only refers to those members who had hardly contributed to our guild. Certainly, if there are member who contribute to our guild and are unable to do so for an extended period of time, they could pm Grond and tell him of the reasons. I'm sure he will be more than happy to know the reasons for that. Sometimes, life interferes with the forums.:(

[Elu Thingol]

I'd be glad to debate with you Pohuist. You can pick the topic if you want, but don't go into HOME because I just started reading those.

[Mithlond]

I dont know if i'm one of those that Grond speaks of not contributing enough to the guild.
I know i haven't posted a great deal in the last few weeks, it's just time is always against me. But if ever there is a debate or some kind of challenge, i will always do my best in taking part.

Sorry guys, i'll try to be around more often from now on.

[Lhunithiliel]

I might have missed it, but would someone tell me WHAT WAS THE RESULT of the laste debate held within our guild (The Ring-sentient or not) , as well as about the RESULT from the debate between our guild and Anc's one.
Thank you!:p

[Grond]

No, Mithlond, you are not one of those of whom I am speaking. If you look at the guild list you will see some members who haven't posted at all. Those are the ones that my comment was directed at. And they will know who they are shortly, as my PM's will begin going out next week.

We aren't asking that someone post everyday, but in order for our guild to remain vital and interesting, three or four members can't be expected to do all the work as far as starting new threads and posting new ideas and concepts.

BTW, I am proud of all that the members have done in this guild. It is a wonderful place filled with wonderful people and I'm proud to be a member. :D

[Valinorean]

Please don't scold me for lack of participation! I am really trying! I read almost everything on the forum, but every time I read something I want to respond to I lose my confidence and I don't click "submit". I think my knowledge may be a little rusty. :(

[Grond]

If you have taken the time to read and post on this thread, then you are participating in the forum. Sometimes, participation may only be reading threads. That is fine.... I just want to make sure that everyone stays active. If your Tolkien memory is a little rusty... start rereading The Silmarillion and join the discussion thread. Maedhros is an excellent teacher and understands Tolkien better than I. :)

[Maedhros]

I would never dare to assume that I could ever understand Tolkien as Grond does. Hopefully after a few years of reading it I may come close to Grond.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Now, you two, revere to each other!
What gentlemen!
What a courtesy!
What a chivalry!

My guild-mates, aren't we lucky to have two perfect gentlemen leading our guild?!:p

[Lhunithiliel]

I STILL DON'T KNOW THE RESULT!
Can someone tell the result from the "Ring-sentient"- debate?

[gate7ole]

There was a thread about the debate, but few people posted their opinion on the debate. The poll was in favor of Team B. But I don't know the result of the judges!