What IS Tom Bombadil? [Archive]

Talierin

09-05-2001, 06:56 PM

This states my opinion on Tom pretty clearly. (Arku-this is what I was going to send you)
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Who is Tom Bombadil?
*An Essay by Gene Hargrove

An earlier version of this paper was published in Mythlore, no. 47 (August 1986).
This version takes into account criticism of the essay and my response in Beyond Bree.

Within the Tolkien household Tom Bombadil was originally a Dutch doll belonging to one of Tolkien's children (Carpenter, Tolkien, p. 162; Grotta-Rurska, Tolkien, p. 101). Tolkien later wrote a poem about him called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," published in Oxford Magazine in 1934, long before the writing of the Lord of the Rings began. When Tolkien decided to introduce Tom into the trilogy, little needed to be changed about him or his poem except for the feather in his hat - changed from peacock to swan-wing, since peacocks do not live in Middle-earth (Tolkien, Letters, pp. 318-19).

Many readers of the Lord of the Rings consider Tom's presence in the first book to be an unnecessary intrusion into the narrative, which could be omitted without loss. Tolkien was aware of their feelings, and in part their judgment was correct. As Tolkien wrote in a letter in 1954, ". . . many have found him an odd and indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already invented him. . . and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out" (Ibid., p. 192). Judging by these remarks, critical readers are correct about the arbitrariness of Tom's introduction into the story; however, as Tolkien continues, he deliberately (nonarbitrary) kept Tom in to fulfill a particular role, to provide an additional dimension.

In a letter written to the original proofreader of the trilogy in 1954, Tolkien reveals a little about what Tom's literary role or function might be. Early in the letter he writes that "even in a mythological Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)" (Ibid., p. 174). Later he adds that "Tom is not an important person - to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment'." He then goes on to explain that
each side in the War of the Ring is struggling for power and control. Tom in contrast, though very powerful, has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty," "a natural pacifist view." In this sense, Tolkien says, Tom's presence reveals that there are people and things in the world for whom the war is largely irrelevant or at least unimportant, and who cannot be easily disturbed or interfered with in terms of it (Ibid., pp. 178-79). Although Tom would fall if the Dark Lord wins ("Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron," Ibid.), he would probably be "the Last as he was the First" (Rings, 1:279).

In trying to grasp what Tolkien has in mind here it is very important, I believe, to distinguish between an enigma and an anomaly, for Tolkien's interest in Tom involves the former while reader dissatisfaction treats Tom more in terms of the latter. An anomaly is something discordant, unrelated, out of place. It is in this sense that someone might claim that Tom could be left out. An enigma, on the other hand, is a mystery, a puzzle, something which seems to be discordant, unrelated, out of place, but isn't. This distinction becomes pivotal in the discussion of Tom Bombadil when one considers that on three occasions in the story the question of Tom's identity or nature is pointedly brought up, twice by Frodo in Tom's house and later at the Council of Elrond. If there is no answer to the question, then Tom is anomalous. If there is, then he is, as Tolkien claimed, enigmatic.

When one takes into account the manner in which Tolkien composed the Lord of the Rings, especially the care he gave to sorting out the historical connections between people, things, and events, I personally find it inconceivable that there is no answer within the framework of the story to Frodo's question: "Who is Tom Bombadil?" Although Tolkien didn't want to tell his readers directly, it seems to me certain that he himself knew very well. Tolkien was very protective of what he wrote, including his errors. When he found something miswritten in his manuscript, he was more likely to ponder, in terms of Middle-earth, how his characters came to make such an error, or what special significance this might have, than simply to correct it. Thus, a mispelt foreign word was more likely to remain as an example of regional dialect than to be changed. Problems with the names and identities of characters were solved in a similar manner. There are, for example, two Glorfindels in his history of Middle earth, one who died fighting a Balrog in the First Age, and another from Rivendell who lent Frodo his horse in the race to Imladris. This situation was, if not a problem, at least a bit unusual, and required special attention from Tolkien, since in general Elf names are unique to particular individuals. Rather than simply renaming one of the Elves, Tolkien concluded
that they were the same person and that he had stumbled onto a rare case of reincarnation among the Elves. He then devoted some time to an examination of the theological implications of this special case (Becker, Tolkien Scrapbook, pp. 92-93).

Given this general approach in writing the trilogy, I submit (1) that it would have been impossible for Tolkien to have brought up the issue of Tom's identity and nature three times and not to have continued thinking about it until he had an answer, and (2) that, although he might not have wanted to tell his readers the correct answer, feeling that enigmas are important, he would nevertheless have left some clues for those who wanted to pursue the matter as he had. The balance of this essay is an examination of those clues. Although the evidence is circumstantial, it is, I believe, convincing.

Beginning as early as Issac and Zimbardo's Tolkien and His Critics, published in 1968, Tom Bombadil has almost universally been regarded as a nature spirit. In that volume, Edmund Fuller states that he is "unclassifiable other than as some primal nature spirit" (p. 23). According to Patricia Meyer Spacks, Tom has natural power for good and he "is in the most intimate communion with natural forces; he has the power of the 'earth itself"' (p. 84). R. J. Reilly claims that Tom is "a kind of archetypal 'vegetation god"' (p. 131) and argues that "when Tom Bombadil speaks, it is as if Nature itself - nonrational, interested only in life and in growing things were speaking (p. 139). This view of Tom, as a nonrational nature spirit, as a personification of nature itself, has been the dominant view ever since. Ruth S. Noel in The Mythology of Middle-earth, published in 1977, in perhaps the longest and most elaborate discussion of him, begins with the remark that "Tom Bombadil is a character like Puck or Pan, a nature god in diminished form, half humorous, halt divine" (p. 127) and she concludes with the remark that Bombadil and Goldberry are undisguised personifications of land untouched by humans, underlaid by a hidden but potent power, representing both the danger of wild land and its potential to serve man" (p. 130). Anne C. Petty in One Ring to Bind Them, published in 1979, summarizes all of the above with the proclamation that Tom is "the nature deity par excellence" (p. 38).

As nearly as I am able to determine, the textual basis for the idea that Tom is a nature spirit is the discussion of him at the Council of Elrond, specifically, the following remarks: "Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself" and ". . . now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them" (Rings, 1:279). I suspect that many people have concluded from the second passage that Tom, as a nature spirit, has gradually become hemmed in with the diminishment of the Old Forest. The passage, however, says no such thing. His limits are not set for him by the boundaries of the forest; rather he set them himself. Furthermore, the passage does not state that he cannot cross the boundaries, only that he will not. The claim that he cannot is not even factually correct: Tom frequently visited Farmer Maggot in the Shire and presumably had previously made similar visits to others "down from days hardly remembered" ("Bombadil Goes Boating" and Rings, 1:143). With regard to the first passage, it does not say that Tom is or has the power of the earth. It is ambiguous. The statement, "Tim does not have the ability to drive that far, unless that ability is in his car," does not mean that Tim is a car. Likewise, the fact that Tom does not have the power to defy Sauron need not be because such power is not in the earth. I will provide a better explanation in due course.

Talierin

09-05-2001, 06:57 PM

It is possible that the nature spirit theory has been held so long because no one could think of an alternative. Consider Jarred Lobdell's treatment of Tom Bombadil in England and Always, published in 1981. Declaring Tom to be the "least successful creation" in the trilogy, he continues:

Standing alone, he would be a nature spirit.... But he is not standing alone. . . . He is not the genius of the earth, since he is restricted to one part of it. . . . He is apparently a man, since he is clearly not an Elf or a Dwarf or an Ent or a Hobbit or one of the fallen races, but he is not one of the Men of the West. I suppose one could save the appearances by making him an angel, of a different order from the Istari, or by making him a god, but in both cases we would be in conflict with Tolkien's mythology. (pp. 62-63)

Lokdell eventually concludes that Tom is an anomaly: "Although I find him an anomalous creation, I can make shift to account for him theologically - but only with the uneasy feeling that making shift is all that I am doing (p. 63).

While I can agree that Tom is not a nature spirit, a Man, an Elf, a Dwarf, or a Hobbit, I see no reason why Lobdell should reject the possibility that he is an angel or a god - in terms of Tolkien's mythology, a Maia or a Vala. We know from the Silmarillion that Orome once hunted in Middle-earth, Ulmo had dealings with the Elves there, Olorin walked among the Elves unseen before he was Gandalf, and Melian spent a great deal of time in Beleriand with Thingol. There is thus ample evidence for occasional visits of such beings, even for the most frivolous or personal reasons.

Moreover, Tolkien draws some literary connections with regard to Tom that help support his divine status. First, as Noel has noted (Mythology, p. 128), Tolkien makes reference in "Bombadil Goes Boating" to a story in the Elder Edda about Odin, one of the most powerful Norse gods, thereby associating Tom with him. Second, in "In the House of Tom Bombadil" Goldberry answers the question "Who is Tom Bombadil?" with the simple statement "He is" (Rings, 1:135). In terms of medieval philosophy this would mean that existence is a predicate of Tom Bombadil and that he is therefore God. Although Tolkien denies this implication in a letter, written in 1954 (Letters, pp. 191-92), saying that Goldberry, like Tom later, is only making a point about the nature of naming, I remain haunted by the remark. Just as the reference to Odin does not necessarily mean that we must conclude that Tom is Odin, the allusion to medieval philosophical terminology in describing him need not be interpreted as a Christian theological crisis. While Tolkien's denial clearly rules out the possibility that Tom is Iluvatar, I do not see that it eliminates the possibility that he is an offspring of Iluvatar's thought, a Vala or a Maia, for I see nothing theologically troublesome with existence being a predicate of part of God.

Finally, there is Tom's singing. Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West
common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it.

Although this interpretation of Tom's singing is inconsistent with the general claim that Tom is nonrational, it is not inconsistent with Tolkien's own characterization of Tom in two letters in 1954, in which Tom is associated with the pure scientific study of nature. Tolkien writes:
. . . [Tom] is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular emboding of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly entirely unconcerned with 'doing' annulling with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany, not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. (Letters, p. 192; see also, p. 174)

As the exemplification of pure science, Tom could hardly be nonrational. Tom's purity, moreover, stems from his desire to delight in things as they are, without dominating and controlling them. The former is the aim of pure science, the latter the essential aims of applied science. Tom's knowledge of nature allows him to control nature when necessary, but because such control is not his aim, he is more akin to science than engineering.

If we take Tom's remark quite literally that he "was here before the river and the trees. . .the first raindrop and the first acorn" (Rings, 1:142), he is saying either that he was in Middle-earth when the Valar arrived or that he arrived as one of the Valar. His remark that "he knew the dark under ths stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside" refers to the time before Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, had officially turned renegade - the time when the "old" or original stars were made. Since the world was incomplete at that time and nothing lived on the earth except the Valar, it is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala.

One interesting hint that Tom is a Vala may be tucked away in the confusing claim that Tom is "the oldest" even though Treebeard is at the same time supposed to be "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun." In The Road to Middle-earth, published in 1982, T. A. Shipley, who considers Tom "a one-member category," struggles with this "inconsistency" and concludes that the claim that Treebeard is the oldest living thing, if true, implies that Tom is not alive, just as the Nazgul are not dead (p. 82). Although the analogy is most likely not correct, it is suggestive. The word living probably means minimally that Fangorn is biotic, that is, an element belonging to the living system of the earth, the biosphere. There were in fact two classes of beings "living" in Middle-earth, who, as beings from outside of Ea, were not part of this system: the Valar and their servants, the Maiar. Their bodies were "veils" or "raiment," appearances, in which they were self-incarnated (Road Goes Ever On, p. 66). As noted in the essay, "Istari," in Unfinished Tales (p. 389), the Maiar who became the wizards of Middle-earth - and who had the same nature as the Valar - were converted to living beings temporarily by the special consent of Iluvatar: "For with the
consent of Eru they ... [were] clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain. . . ." The need for this conversion suggests that the Valar and Maiar were indeed nonliving, but in a manner very different from the Nazgul. Whereas the Ringwraiths were former living beings who were kept in existence unnaturally through the power of their rings in association with the One Ring, the Valar and Maiar were beings from another plane of existence (the Void) who, as a result, did not completely fit into the world of Middle-earth. Instead, of placing Tom in an anomalous category of one, or associating him with the undead, Shipley's "inconsistency" may simply be a hint that Tom has extraterrestrial status as a Vala or Maia.

Someone might, of course, want to object that Tom Bombadil really doesn't look or act like a Vala or a Maia, appearing and behaving instead more like an overgrown Hobbit. I submit, however, to the contrary, that there is no particular way that the Valar and Maiar were supposed to look. Rather they appeared in whatever way they chose, wearing their "veils" or "raiment" in a manner similar to the way we wear clothing. In "The Voice of Saruman," for example, Gimli tells Gandalf that he wants to see Saruman so he can compare the two wizards. In mused response, Gandalf informs Gimli that there is no way for him to make such a comparison meaningfully, since Saruman can alter his appearance at will as it suits his purpose (Rings, 2:181-82). Rather than decreasing the possibility that Tom is a Vala, his hobbitish appearance actually increases it, for it suggests that Tom has the ability to "fit" his surroundings. If a Vala wanted to visit with Hobbits, he would, of course, appear to them in a manner that was somewhat humorous and familiar, thereby, putting them at ease. In this way, it can be argued that Tom's Hobbit-like appearance counts in favor of him being a Vala or a Maia, not against it.

Talierin

09-05-2001, 06:59 PM

Robert Foster in the Complete Guide (p. 496) thus seems to be on the right track when he suggests that "it is possible that he is a Maia 'gone native'." The only problem is that there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character. It is only when one turns to the Valar themselves that potential candidates emerge.

Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit.

In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:

In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves.

When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.

To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."

As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:

There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."

Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.

Of course, an important problem with this hypothesis is the claim that Goldberry is the Riverwoman's daughter. If the story is true, then Goldberry cannot be Yavanna. However, there are many things said in Rings that are not true literally and many matters are left unrevealed or unexplained. For instance, it was believed by many people that Rohan was selling horses to Mordor. Gandalf never reveals that he is a Maia. The eagles are never revealed as Maiar (though they are "Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles" who "could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world" (Silmarillion, p. 35). As is clear from "The Hunt for the Ring," in Unfinished Tales, many details are presented in a confused and unconnected way in Rings, because that is how they appeared to the people who wrote the book. There are, finally, two accounts given by Tolkien of the origins of the Orcs, both of which cannot be true. Thus, the fact that some people believe that Goldberry is Riverwoman's Daughter does not absolutely, literally have to be true.

Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.

When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with
scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.

Talierin

09-05-2001, 07:00 PM

It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time.

If Tom is Aule, however, two other questions need to be answered. First of all, what are he and Yavanna doing in the Old Forest to begin with? As far as Yavanna is concerned, she is probably just visiting with growing things and vacationing with her husband. Aule, on the other hand, is probably there for the purpose of studying Hobbits. We should not forget that of all the Valar Aule was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt
allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.

Second, if he is Aule, and he is such a fine and wonderful god, why doesn't he choose to be more helpful? Put another way, why isn't there power in him to fight the enemy? The answer to this question is simpler than one might at first imagine. When Ulmo rises from the sea in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" to give instructions to Tuor, who is supposed to deliver a message to the Elves of Gondolin, he hurries with his directions fearing that his own servant Osse will hurl a wave upon the shore and drown his emissary. As he puts it in Unfinished Tales (p. 30): "Go now. . . lest the Sea devour thee! For Osse obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom." Although Ulmo's actions are contrary to the will of the rest of the Valar that even his own servant will not help him (and is actually prepared to act against him), Ulmo, nevertheless, insists that he is not really opposing the other Valar, but rather is merely doing his "part":

... though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. (p. 29)

The key phrase is "to which I was appointed ere the making of the World." First, it makes it clear that Ulmo is not acting defiantly at all, merely following orders, just as his servant would be following orders if he hurled up a wave and killed Tuor. Second, it refers to the time of the song which created the world. It is this song, I believe, that contains the conflicting instructions both Ulmo and Osse are following, different parts, elements, or themes of the whole. If I am correct, then Ulmo's power to help the Elves is both limited by and partially determined by the Music of the Ainur, insofar as it established the existence of the earth and determined its major events. While Ulmo may have had free will as he sang his part of the song in those distant times, he is now bound by what he sang and cannot go beyond or change his part. If Tom is Aule, then he too is bound by his part in the song and although sympathetic and concerned, he can only help the Hobbits and the Free Peoples of the West in little ways.

This account of Tom as Aule is not really inconsistent with Tolkien's claim that Tom has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty" and that he exemplifies "a natural pacifist view." At the time of the singing of the Great Music, it is true that Aule, along with most of the other Holy Ones, eventually stopped singing, leaving Melkor to sing on alone. However, they did not stop because Melkor's thunderous and discordant singing defeated them, but rather because they did not wish to compete with him and considered the song spoiled by his behavior. It was not defeat, since obviously by singing together the others could have overcome him. Rather it was a rejection of the conflict itself - hence, a pacifist position. It was indeed the Third Theme sung by Iluvatar, representing the part of the Children of Iluvatar, that was to overcome Melkor's disruption. Concerning the "vow of poverty," Aule has indeed taken such a vow - as exemplified by his attitude toward his work and the work of others - his lack of excessive pride, jealousy, and possessiveness.

In contrast, if Tom is a nature spirit, then no vow of poverty has been taken, and there is no natural pacifist view. According to the nature spirit thesis, as Veryln Flieger puts it in Splintered Light, published in 1983: "Tom Bombadil, on whom the Ring has no effect, is a natural force, a kind of earth spirit, and so the power over the will which the Ring exerts simply has no meaning for him" (p. 128, note). As a natural force, Tom has the same status as a falling rock or the wind or the rain - he is blind activity with no direction or purpose. As such he is not a moral agent, and cannot therefore make moral decisions. The moral dimension is thus completely absent. Tom is immune to the influence of the ring not because of his high moral character, but because he is not capable of having a moral character at all.

If Tom is Aule, however, there is a moral dimension, indeed, a heightened one, for Tom's appearance in the story, although only a "comment," serves as a sharp and clear contrast to the two evil Maiar, Sauron and Saruman, both of whom were once his servants before turning to evil and darkness. Unlike their former master, these two followed the ways of Melkor, envy, jealousy, excessive pride, and the desire to possess and control. As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aule, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession. In fact, in terms of the moral traits that most fascinated Tolkien both as an author and as a scholar, Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's moral ideal.

(Sorry this is so long, but it's a good essay!)

Rosie Cotton

09-05-2001, 09:10 PM

Wow Talierin! Thanks for putting that up! I don't have time to read it all now (homework to do, and a cello to practice), but I read some of it and it seems pretty interesting. I'll definately read the whole thing when I have a chance!

Kementari

09-05-2001, 09:51 PM

Wow! There were some VERY strong points. I liked the point about observing hobbits, since they have such an important role, they should get more attention.
Tom as Aule is possible... But, Tom was said to have been in Middle-earth since the beginning, before the elves awoke; and it was Orome who was the first to see the elves. Orome is another possiblity... he is more like Tom in character, Tom doesn't have a smithy in his house, does he? but if he is a Vala he never mentions anything about Valinor.
Most of this is just based on the fact that Goldberry is described alot like Yavanna. I wonder what is meant by River-Daughter? She has more to do with water than Yavanna would...
I think Tom is just a maiar, but his part in the song must have been about nature and having his own little kingdom to rule, where there were no big problems... it doesn't say he fought in any wars with the Valar...
My God, this is confusing :eek: I will stop rambling, as is my wont...

Telchar

09-06-2001, 09:30 AM

I dissagre a bit on some points, I don't belive he's Aule, I agree with Kementari about the possibility that Orome might be Tom. Anyway, he's imortal, he's older than Fangorn, so he got to be a spirit with some sort of power over the nature, and I belive all the Ainur had that..

LotR_Girl

10-24-2001, 10:48 PM

Well,I've read that about his son Michael(I like that name)while I was reading Roverandrom...So,Tom is his son's toy!HaHahaaaaaaaaa!!!!LoL,im kidding...:D :D :D :rolleyes:

Aerin

10-25-2001, 02:56 AM

I don't want to seem ignorant of what you are talking about, but I have never tried to classify Tom Bombadill in any category. He never seems to entirely fit into any mold. Explaining Tom Bombadill to myself has always consisted of "Tom Bombadill is....Tom Bombadill!"

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 01:53 AM

Tom Bombadilo, was to me and earth/spirit guy. I sensed him to be lighthearted not like any of the valar or marair(sp) more mysterious than most of the characters. He kind of came and went in sense.

Gothmog

10-28-2001, 02:09 AM

The question asked, what is Tom Bombadil. The answer in the words of Goldberry. He Is. This means What you see is Tom Bombadil.

I think that he is an Ainur of the order Maiar and came to Arda at the begining with the Valar and the rest of the Maiar. When the rest went to Valinor to make their new land protected from Melkor he probably stayed behind. Gandalf seemed to have known Bombadil from long before the time of LotR. So he may have known him at the time of the first building of the lands. This could be why he wanted to talk with Bombadil after his task was ended.

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 02:11 AM

i have to agree,weren't they the first, as described in the creation of the earth in Auninur(sp)

Beorn

10-28-2001, 04:29 AM

I just got through In The House of Tom Bombadil, and, well, he seems like Ilu...

And, as Goldberry also said, "He is the master"

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 04:32 AM

true, true. Why'd they take out poor old tom?

Also goldberry said

"Tom bombadil was here in the begining and therfor he shall be here in the end"

Well it went something like that, it could've been Mithandir who said that oh well.

Gothmog

10-28-2001, 04:41 AM

Mike, that is a very interesting idea. It would be a good way for Iluvatar to keep an eye on what is happening on Arda without interfering too much.

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 04:42 AM

indeed a very,very good idea.

Beorn

10-28-2001, 04:57 AM

Now here's a question, what is Goldberry? She is the river-daughter, but what species would that be???

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 04:58 AM

didn't Lotr say she was an elf of some sort,High~nolodorian maybe?

Iluvatar

10-28-2001, 07:36 AM

While I agree that it would be nice to imagine Tom Bombadil as Iluvatar keeping tabs on his creation, Tom remains a remarkably poor selection for the job. Tom cared only for his very small realm of power, and would not leave it and cared for little or nothing of what was beyond it. He strikes me asas a self-serving and rather minor maia.

Beorn

10-28-2001, 04:11 PM

You say that he only cared about himself and his little territory?

(Frodo)'Did you hear me calling, Master, or was it just chance that brought you at that moment?'
Tom stirred like a man shaken out of a pleasant dream. 'Eh, what?' said he. 'Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me thenm if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering. We guessed you'd come ere long down to the water: all paths lead that way, down to the Withywindle....'FotR 123-124

So, he frequently recieved news of the outside world...He didn't get the news from the trees themselves because, As they listened, they began to undertstand the lives of the Forest, apart from themselves, indeed to feel themselves as the strangers where all other things were at home. Moving constantly in and out of his talk was Old Man Willow, and Frodo learned now enough to content him, indeed more than enough, for it was not comfortable lore. Tom's words laid bare the hearts of the trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers. It was not called the Old Forest without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But non were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the DownsFotR 127-128
These trees were evil, and Tom was good, so they wouldn't tell him...The only other living thing he speaks about in the forest are Barrow Wights, and they would never tell him, or speak to him.

To re-enforce that he could be Iluvatar:
'Fair lady!' said Frodo again after a while. 'Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil?'
'He is,' said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling.
Frodo looked at her questioningly. 'He is, as you have seem him,' she said in answer to his look. 'He is the Master of wood, water, and hill.'
'Then all this strange land belongs to him?'
'No indeed!' she answered, and her smile faded. 'That would indeed be a burden,' she added in a low voice, as if to herself. 'The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the river, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.'FotR 122
And, I don't believe that anything ever says exactly what the boundaries of his land (well I can't really say his land after the above quote) are.

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 05:11 PM

I think if tom bombadilo ruled all he would be so stressed he'd need prozac weekly.

Iluvatar

10-28-2001, 06:44 PM

Mike B:

Sure, Tom got information about the outside world, and we know he had a fairly good relationship with Farmer Maggot. But I disagree with you about the significance of his hearing about things outside of his narrowly defined domain. He wouldn't escort Frodo beyond those borders despite knowing the enormity of Frodo's task and the dangers being faced. At the Council of Elrond Gandalf explicitly stated that Bombadil would not take guardianship of the Ring unless he were begged by all the free peoples of the world. So I'm sticking with my suggestion that Bombadil was an insigificant - albeit goodhearted - Maia.

Iluvatar

Gothmog

10-28-2001, 11:24 PM

Iluvatar,

At the momment I have an open mind on this idea of Mike's. But I have a couple of points to make.

You Said:
"While I agree that it would be nice to imagine Tom Bombadil as Iluvatar keeping tabs on his creation, Tom remains a remarkably poor selection for the job. Tom cared only for his very small realm of power, and would not leave it and cared for little or nothing of what was beyond it. He strikes me asas a self-serving and rather minor maia."

We do not know how much attention Tom paid to the 'outside' world and we do not know if Tom needed to leave his 'small realm' to gain information. What is so poor about this selection if you do not want to be bothered by others.

You also said:
"He wouldn't escort Frodo beyond those borders despite knowing the enormity of Frodo's task and the dangers being faced. At the Council of Elrond Gandalf explicitly stated that Bombadil would not take guardianship of the Ring unless he were begged by all the free peoples of the world. So I'm sticking with my suggestion that Bombadil was an insigificant - albeit goodhearted - Maia."

If Tom were Eru Iluvatar, then he would only intervene in Arda in gravest need when the task is beyond the abilities of those who live in Arda, as when he changed the shape of the world. So if his intent was just to watch the events in Middle-Earth then Tom Bombadil would be a perfect choice, no one would think he was anything special. Don't forget, the view of Eru about the results of Melkor's rebelion in the great song is somewhat different to the views of most of us.

I will give more thought to this view of Tom and look forward to seeing others answers to Mike and yourself.;)

Tar-Ancalime

10-28-2001, 11:27 PM

everyone has really good points.

Beorn

10-29-2001, 04:41 AM

'Who are you, Master?' [Frodo] asked.
'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eye glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my nameyet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself, and the nameless? Bu you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am.Marky my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees. Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big Peopl, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'
And no, that dark lord is not Dengen....

The bolded items are things that indicate he may be Iluvatar. I'm not 100% sure (I tried to finish the Sil as quickly as possible), but if he was there before Melkor, in the first age, that would make him at least a Vala.

Talierin

10-29-2001, 05:01 AM

I still don't think he is Illuvatar.

This is just a thought I'm throwing out. What if Tom was placed upon Arda by Illuvatar or one of the Valar right after Arda was created, before there was plants and etc, to prepare it for growing things?

Iluvatar

10-29-2001, 01:38 PM

Mike B:

Maybe Tom was Iluvatar; maybe he was a Vala. You have good points, albeit ultimately not thoroughly convincing (to me at least). However, your logic suggesting that he must at least be a Vala if he was here before Melkor is faulty. My understanding is that the Maiar and the Valar both arrived on Ea at essentially the same time. While the Maiar were less powerful than the Valar they were not slaves of the Valar, and so Bombadil could have went to Arda very very early in Ea's history.

Iluvatar

Cian

10-29-2001, 02:06 PM

Tolkien wrote:

"The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä."

"There is no 'embodiement' of the creator anywhere in this story or Mythology."

Peter Hastings, citing the description of "he is", said that this seemed to imply Bombadil was God. Tolkien responded: "I really do think you are being too serious besides missing the point" :) Goldberry and Tom were referring rather to the mystery of names.

Tolkien wrote a lot about Bombadil in Letters actually, but didn't describe him as Vala or Maia either ~ but a purposed "enigma" rather, which is good enough for me.

Spelled sideways (sorta) Bombadil's very name might reveal his true origin:
mad Bilbo! ;)

Lantarion

10-29-2001, 04:33 PM

LOL :D
I could imagine Bombadil as a hobbit, if he wasn't one of the eldest living creatures on M-e, and if he was a bit smaller. :rolleyes:

Thorondor

10-30-2001, 03:10 AM

I do not think that He is a nature spirit, I have some quotes i will get them later.:D

Thorondor

10-30-2001, 05:02 AM

Many think that Tom Bombadill was a nature spirit because of the quotes:
LotR page 259Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the Earth itself.
LotR page 122 He is the Master of wood, water, and hill.
But what of this quote taken from the Silmarillion?
p.10 Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the comfines of the world; but others and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took leave of Iluvatar and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thence forward be contained and bound in the world, to be within it, forever, until it is complete, so that they are its life, and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
Now who would be the one that fits these descriptions? For me that would be Aule, but I do not deny that it might be someone else.

Thorondor

10-30-2001, 05:24 AM

Now to the master of wood, water, and hill part. . .
Sil, page 20
His(Aule) Lordship is over all the substances of which Arda is made. In the Beginning he wrought much in fellowship with Manwe and Ulmo, and the fashioning of all the lands was his labor. He is a smith and a master of all crafts, and he delights in works of skill however small. . .(page 35) Of him comes the love and knowledge of the Earth and of all things that it contains. . the weaver, shaper of wood, and worker of metals; and the tiller and husbandman, though these last and all that deal with things that grow and bear fruit must look also to the spouse of Aule, Yavanna.
Lastly there is the quote from LotR page 259:
And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind.
This from the Sil(page 8) seems to describe Aule the same way:
Of the fabric of Earth had Aule thought. . .but the delight and pride of Aule is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work.

There that is my opinion. But I do acknowledge that he may be someone else. It all just depends on what you research. If it was a definitive answer, then there would not be this thread.:D

gil-estel

11-10-2001, 12:35 AM

Just wanted to know what you thought-i just can't work it out

Greymantle

11-10-2001, 12:49 AM

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118&highlight=bombadil

gil-estel

11-10-2001, 12:54 AM

Sorry. never say that before

gil-estel

11-10-2001, 12:55 AM

or saw that before

Greymantle

11-10-2001, 12:56 AM

It's alright. Just pointing it out in case you wanted to take a look.

gil-estel

11-10-2001, 12:59 AM

Cheers. Just did. It was good. Thanx again

Telchar

11-10-2001, 12:54 PM

Well, think this poll is worth voting on, since it's hard to decide who belive what in the other thread.. :) And there are many new members that might belive something else..

Greymantle

11-11-2001, 12:01 AM

Might I request that more options be added?

gil-estel

11-13-2001, 12:58 AM

Can anyone suggest new threads? Kinda stuck on the ones i put there in the first place

Gothmog

11-13-2001, 01:57 AM

If you mean other options, have another look at the view given on the other thread on this subject and put in the extra options posted there. Just a suggestion.:)

Talierin

11-17-2001, 04:06 AM

Unfortunatly, the mods are the only ones who can change the poll options once you have posted.... I've tried many times to change them, without success......

Beren Erchanion

12-01-2001, 09:04 PM

No other choice than a maia: he's doing magic so he's not an elf and don't even think of a sleepy Valar in the Middle-Earth far is the time when they were playing like elves in the Middle-Earth we don't need more choices he's a maia (well maybe are they Beren and Luthien?)

Telchar

12-02-2001, 08:09 PM

He's more powerfull than Gandalf when it comes to controlling the Ring, remember that Gandalf didn't even want to hold it, except when he threw it in the fire and took it out again.. And another thing, Tom could see Frodo when he used the Ring.. So I strongly doubt he was a maia..

Grond

12-03-2001, 07:04 AM

Tom is described as an enigma by Tolkien in his letters. (The direct quote is in another Tom thread in this very forum.) Tom is the eldest of Earth and, unlike the other Maia facing it, he neither fears the ring(Gandalf) nor desires it (Saruman and Sauron). It seems to have no control over him nor does it seem to have any effect over his domain. (He could see Frodo after Frodo had put on the ring). So Tom is a none of the above. He isn't an Elda, Maia, Vala, Man, Hobbit......he's just........"Tom!"

Beorn

12-09-2001, 01:08 AM

Well, I'll dig this thread out, again, because I was looking through the Encyclopedia of Arda, when I noticed Iarwain Ben-Adar. I'd never heard of this (but I bet it was in the Sil), so I checked it out, and found it to be Tom (as you probably know), and thought of this thread. Most of the stuff in this post is from the E of A and I noticed nothing was posted on this thread about it

Firstly, lets start off with some of the elvish words that can be extracted from his name:

Iaur-'old' as in Iant, Iaur; cf. the Elvish name of Bombadil, Iarwain.
Ben-without
Adar-Father

And, not from his name:

Iluve-'the whole, the all' in Iluvatar
Atar-father

So he is Oldest Without Father, and Ilu is All's Father. So, if Ilu is all's father, then he doesn't have a father...If Ilu had a father, then we would know that his father would be the father of All....
Does anyone see the link?

Gandalf White

12-10-2001, 12:00 AM

Personally, I could never stand ol' Tom. Sorry!

Cian

12-10-2001, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Mike B and stuff from E of A
Iaur-'old' as in Iant, Iaur; cf. the Elvish name of Bombadil, Iarwain.
Ben-without
Adar-Father
And, not from his name: Iluve-'the whole, the all' in Iluvatar Atar-father

So he is Oldest Without Father, and Ilu is All's Father. So, if Ilu is all's father, then he doesn't have a father...If Ilu had a father, then we would know that his father would be the father of All.... Does anyone see the link?

That Bombadil is not the All-father Ilúvatar is one thing Tolkien revealed in Letters Imo, on this subject. Tolkien was happy with "enigma"

On the Elvish:
Pen "lack, be without" ~ Ben-adar is the lenited version of *Pen-adar.
Iarwain may contain a superlative (old-est) or may be the compound Iar(g)wain, meaning "old-new". The name appears in FotR.

Capt. Yosarian

12-10-2001, 01:18 AM

Seems to me the best arguments are for Tom's true identity being Aule or Iluvatar. I think of the reason for Tom limiting his territory to Old Forest being that if you want a change of sceenery and don't want too much interruption on your vacation then you would spend it in a place that would be conducive to that. Also if he were a Valar or Eru then he would know that helping out the hobbits would be just tampering with things that do not require his meddling.

I also hold the idea that it might be that everyone so far has gotten the identity crisis the wrong way around. Ilvatar or Aule show their true form as Tom Bombadil! Oh the irony of it all!

Merry

12-10-2001, 10:41 AM

Without reading the Sil, it is difficult for me to make an educated guess at who TB really is. I got the impression that he was part of the earth and was lord over his domain without being tied to a certain race.

TB's magic is certainly enhanced by his mysterious beginnings.

ratodelmorte

12-14-2001, 01:30 AM

a great story"leaf by niggle" the other stories contained in the
this tome, such as bombadil and goldberry?
who were they?
the ring had no power over him, and thus he was not ishtari,
he must have been older, one of the ainur...or, if you'll excuse
my humour, Iluvatar,himself....perhaps, but it would explain certain things, the barrow wrights having no power over him, old man willow bending to his SONG....these are just a few examples, tidbits of information i throw out to you, my fellow ardans.
the story of leaf by niggle, upon after reading the posthumous writings of Tolkien, show the confussion of how to draw the line between doing one thing and wanting to do another...niggle goes into transcendence when he travels by train, after his entermant where he worked(the purgatory a god must face when he allows the other to be part of the song)[or as being an auther, creating and destroying the creation within the book that which he/she is writing],to the meadows and feilds, the mountains....all in the realm of the creation.

Chuncky Choopie

12-14-2001, 05:56 AM

I will never know what Tom Bombadil is, or was,... I personally think that he was a delineation of Tolkien. The creator of this wonderful world but no more than a mere spectator.

But Why Should I Speak?
Why Should Anyone Listen To Me?
For I Know Nothing...

ratodelmorte

12-14-2001, 07:22 AM

a very good insight, perhaps the role of author is what you meant by saying bombadil was a spectator...often the writer
of a story wishes to see his/her world realized...fulfilled....but another clue...to the bombadil/iluvater factor. Joseph Campbell in his books on mythoi, the heroic cycle would agree with you.
In his later years, Tolkien made draft after draft of pages on the silmarillion and his lost tales, his manuscripts were hard for his son christopher to put together, jumbled-out of order, he worked
on constantly revising. perhaps he felt if he added himself to the story he would see it better, but then again all this mental ************ makes my typing fingers hurt and i want to puke.

I still believe bombadil-whether god, auther,both-was Iluvater

nyriel

12-14-2001, 10:16 PM

hiya Grond!
I absolutely agree with you! Tom Bombadil is just Tom Bombadil and nobody can denyy ittt
Nyriel

Aredhel

12-14-2001, 10:58 PM

I have never read the book, so I can't say.

Greymantle

12-15-2001, 01:59 AM

Then hurry up and read it, before all hope is lost.
Is this our first sole movie-member (with the exception of Thunder)?

Glamdring

12-16-2001, 04:10 PM

<<Bombadil and Goldberry>>
I think Tolkein meant them to be entirely of ME. That is why the Ring had no power over them and Bombadil would have eventually lost the Ring if it had been given to him. They were like the mountains - a part of creation but not relevant to the Elves and Men. Their power was that of the land and the natural world. There is a definite hint in the Appendices (if I remember) that the start of the Fourth Age was the end of the world described in the LOTR and that all beings and attributes of previous worlds were doomed to fade away.

"Leaf by Niggle" is one of my favourite works. The story shows how someone can become obsessed with a creation (like Tolkein was) and how the creation can eventually lead to his downfall. That was the criticism of Niggle - he was so involved in the Leaf and the Tree that he neglected his duties to help his neighbours who paid him back by using the painting as a temporary roof (if my memory serves me correctly).

Flame of Utumno

12-17-2001, 02:00 PM

I don't believe Tom is just a freak of nature. All creatures on Arda were ultimately created by Iluvatar, and among his many creations, Tom is closest in form to a Maia, (one that decided not to live in Valinor). I like the mystery surrounding him and also his poetry from the The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, but during the War of the Ring, I really think he could have done more in terms of fighting Sauron and helping others rather than just taking care of himself. (He really needs to get a hold of himself and sober up a bit...)

Godflesh

12-20-2001, 03:05 AM

I wonder how old Tom Bombadil are, he is he, The Silmarillron dont mention him at all, pretty strange if you have read Tom Bomadils own general "discription" on himself. He should be older then the ents and the world itself.

Old Man Willow

12-20-2001, 03:13 AM

Actually, I have read a small book before on Bombadil (actually more of a childrens book) consisting mostly of poems and pictures about his coming and life. I can't really remember much except about the ocean maybe and that Tolkien wrote it. You could probably find it in a library.

Centin

12-23-2001, 08:18 AM

I always thought of Tom Bombadil as a sort of avatar of Tolkien in ME. I think he wanted to really put a part of his personality into the books and did it with Bombadil.

Merry

12-24-2001, 09:32 AM

I am in the process of reading the Silmarillion and my answer is a little more educated. I think that Tom was not one of the original Valar but one of the Miair (sp) who remained on M-E to complete/ protect the creation of Eru via the Valar.

But since it does not clearly indicate who he is, my comments are just guesses.

vidsa

12-24-2001, 07:58 PM

Tom Bombadil is the worst character in the movie

Bryheinnen

12-26-2001, 04:10 AM

To me, Bombadil is one of the most fascinating characters in the book, and it always frustrates me when people dismiss him as an incongruity in LOTR.
Tom is Eldest and Master. I don't believe he is one of the Valar. I think he is the power of the earth itself. He is Cronus to Manwe's Zeus. He might be best compared to one of the precursors of the Olympian gods in Greco-Roman mythology, the titans.
Not original with me; some have made the obvious comparison of Bombadil to Melchizedek of the Old Testament, an enigmatic character of great spiritual authority, who is "The King of Salem" (a reference with a double meaning---the king of the city that was to become Jerusalem, but also, literally translated, the "king of peace") and perhaps the prefiguration of the Christ to come. Jesus makes it very clear that his preisthood is not the same as that of the Levutes, but that he is "A priest of the Order of Melchizedek".
Tom perhaps represents what Camus called "the tender indifference of the universe", an order above the ordered morality of men. A leopard is good in that it hunts the deer, even though that seems cruel to us. He is clearly good, but also answers to a clearly different morality and order of things than the other characters in the book. He is above their struggle, though not entirely indifferent to it
He has somewhat of a smaller-scale analog in Merlin in the last book of Lewis's space trilogy, THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH.
Don't know if that shed any light or not. More questions than answers. Let me know.

Evenstar

12-26-2001, 05:44 AM

The aspect of Tom being Illuvator is an interesting idea that I never thought of before. I'm not sure if I'm totally sold on it though.

I think Tom is closest to an Earth spirit. Kind of like a child of Earth. I know it says he is father-less, but maybe that means he had no physical father or that he is not a son of Illuvator. Doesn't it fit that the River-Daughter should be with the Earth's son? In a way Bombadil reminds me of Cahadras or the monster in the lake. There are constantly forces that are older and more powerful than Sauron, Gandalf and the inhabitants of the ME that Gandalf mention in the book. I believe Bombadil is a force that is older than all the inhabitants and maybe he is not Illuvator himself. He simply came as a child of the Earth.

ReadWryt

12-26-2001, 07:21 AM

Since Tom started life (outside of Middle-earth) as the spirit of a woodland that was dissapearing, perhaps one should take into account the love of the wild country side that spawned him in Tolkien's mind.

Old Man Willow

12-26-2001, 10:41 PM

Evenstar,

Not necessarily more powerful than Sauron, just indifferent to and unaffected by his powers.

I agree with those who say Bombadil is more than just Tolkien's fancy of his child's doll, though it may have spawned the idea. Perhaps Bombadil IS the only one of his kind? The Valar, as well as the Maiar came across to Middle-Earth, correct? If that is the case, then Bombadil is surely not one of them. He and Goldberry made it plain and clear in LOTR (yes, without having to consult the Sil) that he originated from Middle-Earth itself. And having no ancestral lineage, it is impossible for him to have made an exodus to Middle-Earth. This would in fact exclude him from being Valar and Maiar. And the term nature-spirit can be interpreted many different ways. I think Bombadil was created to be never fully understood, a creative yet somehow connected insert by Tolkien. And whoever said that it makes sense for the river-daughter Goldberry to be with 'father' of the earth Bombadil, I agree.

Whither do you wander, along the Withywindle.........???

Eonwe

12-26-2001, 10:53 PM

I always thought he was a great Maia of Yavanna, and I reconciled his powers with the fact that Yavanna grew the two trees.

But I remember somewhere reading that someone thought he was a manifestation of Illuvatar:cool:

One thing is for sure he is really bizarre and yet really simple. I thought he seemed a little scared about the barrow wight stuff (like he put out the treasure to break the spell, why couldn't he break it himself?)

Orin

12-31-2001, 05:01 PM

Tom's the guy who, originally, was supposed to keep the place clean and looking sharp. You know, he took care of the minor landscaping that the Elves couldn't be bothered with, cleaned up and disposed of the mine tailings from the Dwarves, and the Men, boy what slobs! In order to remain inconspicous and, above all, Neutral, Tom was immune to the petty annoyances of magic, politics, power and the like that governed the rest of the races of Middle Earth.

As time went on, the World grew, the job got too big for Tom to do alone, and gradually, he was forgotten. He cut his responsibilities back more and more with each passing age, until he was left with a sphere of control that included the bit of the Old Forest around his home. In a sense, he was the caretaker of the place, and the place got too big and no one bothered to tell him he wasn't needed anymore. How's that for a theory?

Curufinwe

01-01-2002, 04:03 AM

It says so in the book , 'A Guide To Tolkien'.

Greymantle

01-01-2002, 04:09 AM

So what? One would assume that Tolkien's own words would outweigh this!
The only definitive word is that Tom B. is an enigma, which means that there is no definitive answer! We can all speculate about what we personally thought he was in the conext of M-e; however, in terms of an actual answer: there is none! If Tolkien himself decided that Tom was an enigma, then this is as right as you can get.

Hehe...btw, the singular form of "Maiar" is "Maia." Sorry, I just love to be nit-picky sometimes. :rolleyes:

Curufinwe

01-01-2002, 04:13 AM

I'm illiterate sometimes. should of known.

Grond

01-01-2002, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Curufinwe
I'm illiterate sometimes. should of known. As far as Tom being a maia, I would have to agree with my friend Greymantle on this one. The letters of JRRT absolutely point to Tom being a none of the above. He was simply a character developed in another story that fit in here and whom JRRT wanted to use.

Cian has the exact quote from the letters somewhere.:)

Greymantle

01-01-2002, 07:48 AM

:) I finally ordered Letters this afternoon (along with A Tolkien Reader, Unfinished Tales, and the Tolkien Ensemble's A Night in Rivendell... detect a certain theme? $50...My parents have finally decided I'm totally insane, with some justification). So I'll be able to quote soon enough! ;)

ReadWryt

01-01-2002, 07:55 AM

I don't think Tom can be pidgeon holed as anything from the origins of Middle-earth, being that he was not originally from there. Since he was a creation separate from, and later inserted into, Middle-earth there is no way to guess "what" he is. *Shrug*

Iluisa Olórin

01-01-2002, 11:05 AM

I agree with you, ReadWryt. I think we forget that this is a story that Tolkien developed; not everything can be identified as belonging to a group - whether Valar, Maiar or Elves - nor should it need to be. Tom is neither of these, nor part of any group. Tolkien himself did not identify him and that was his intention; Tom, as a character alone, is appropriate to the story.

Out of interest, how do people think Tom's recollection of the Men of Westernesse in Fog on the Barrow-downs in FotR significent?

Iluisa Olórin

01-01-2002, 11:15 AM

I think we forget that this is a story that Tolkien developed; not everything can be identified as belonging to a group - whether Valar, Maiar or Elves - nor should it need to be. Tom is neither of these, nor part of any group. Tolkien himself did not identify him and that was his intention; Tom, as a character alone, is appropriate to the story.

Out of interest, how do people think Tom's recollection of the Men of Westernesse in Fog on the Barrow-downs in FotR significent?

Grond

01-01-2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by lhutton
...Out of interest, how do people think Tom's recollection of the Men of Westernesse in Fog on the Barrow-downs in FotR significent? They simply point out that Tom was there...Tom saw it happen. I would imagine that if Tom spoke to Farmer Maggot on a fairly regular basis, he would have spoken to the Men of Westernesse. Elrond did say at the Council that of old, Tom was know as "...Orald by Northern Men."

As far as relating any significance to it, I think it simply adds to his being identified as an enigma. He has been a part of and seen all things of Middle-earth... from the subtle light of the lamps...to the darkness when they were cast down...from the brighter light of the Trees...to the darkness of Ungoliant and Melkor...from the light of the fruit of the trees (sun and moon)...to the next darkness when Melkor is again released and the Final Battle is fought. :)

Ståle

01-01-2002, 09:03 PM

The fact that the Ring does not have any power over him suggests that he probably was not a Maia. Gandalf was a Maia, and he would not touch the Ring. Then again, he was a Maia in a weaker from, and perhaps when he become embodied, he lost much wisdom and power.

Still, I think Tom is Aulë. My points are those of the Essay posted earlier. It's really a great read.

Curufinwe

01-01-2002, 11:23 PM

We do agree that his wife was a maia though , probably a maia of Ulmo right?

Curufinwe

01-01-2002, 11:32 PM

Would Eru of ever walked on Ea ,in any form that is?

Grond

01-02-2002, 02:39 AM

I'm not sure that Goldberry was ever addressed. (Whistles for lore expert Cian for help from the Letters of JRRT). I personally would like to think she was a Maia and if she was, being the "daughter of the River" she would be of Ulmo's Maiar.

I'll look more tonight. I have been concentrating so hard on old Tom that I completely forgot about good ole Goldberry.:)

Earnil

01-03-2002, 01:27 AM

I don't think Tom could be either Aule or Iluvatar. Because I remember reading somewhere that the Ring was soo powerful that it could even affect the Valar, and also that it wouldn't be safe even in the 'Undying Lands'.

Instead I think Tom is the personification of Arda. Because for one thing, the ring does not affect him. If he was Arda personified then the Ring being forged from him wouldn't have been able to affect him. And also Tom doesn't really care for anything except himself and the natural world, and also Goldberry, which would mean that if he only cared for himself, and considering to he cared also for Arda then perhaps that would mean Tom is Arda personified.

Bombadillodillo

01-03-2002, 06:50 AM

The essay above is splendid. However, it seems unlikely to me that Bombadil is Aule. The difficulty of identifying him as Aule is that Aule loves to make things. Aule is most akin to Melkor of all the Valor and consequently of all the Valor most like Sauron, Melkor's servant, the difference being that Aule loves the making more than the possessing of artifacts.

Like Aule Bombadil clearly takes little delight in possessing which he understands as a tremendous burden. Even the brooch he takes from the barrow treasure is to ornament Goldberry and remind him of her who wore it long ago. However, there is no indication that Bombadil loves making things. His only love seems to be Goldberry.

He seems to delight in the creatures of the world. However, he has no concern for the great happenings of the world. In this too he differs from the Valor. For the Valor have a great love of the First Born especially and the followers to a lesser degree. Aule especially loved to teach the Elves; indeed (if my memory serves) he loved teaching the inhabitants of Arda so much that he created a race whose only interest would be learning his arts, namely the dwarfs, which rather displeased Illuvatar. Tom may delight in men and hobbits and elves and even learn of their doings from people like farmer Maggot, but he has little interest in collaborating in their affairs. He has so little concern for the affairs of others that one would almost think him completely self absorbed living in his own world, but that he so willingly helps the hobbits in their need.

It is clear that Bombadil is not concerned with the affairs of Arda. He also does not seem to be interested in making things. Yet he does manifest one concern for Arda in his brief appearance (and I have not read his tales so I do not know whether others appear there). He brings Goldberry the last of the lilies so that she can preserve them for spring. However, even this seems to be a concern more of the River daughter than of Tom. Goldberry (who may be Maiar) still remains Tom's only real concern.

From this my conclusion is that Tom Bombadil is not Valar nor Maiar. For the Valar create Arda through their music and they and the Maiar come to Arda to form it according to their vision and both to delight in and direct the affairs of Children of Illuvatar. Tom doesn't seem to have any direct interest in creating artifacts or in fashioning and tending the flora and fauna of Arda or directing and aiding the affairs of Elves and Men.

This is also a good indication that Tom Bombadil is not Illuvatar from whose thought came the Ainur and who directed their music and who is father of the First Born and the Followers. Illuvatar is the father of all and is extremely interested in the affairs of all mentioned. Although his role is most subtle and mysterious and his purposes moreso, he is very interested in all the affairs of Arda. He is surely the mysterious power at work greater than the ring refered to by Gandalf. It was he I think, perhaps through Ulmo (who knows the secret foundations of the world and directs the currents of the Great River and beneath the Misty Mountanins and who also knows more secrets of Eru than any other) Illuvatar arranges for Bilbo's finding of the ring. His subtle providence and no 'chance' brings Tom Bombadil to the rescue of the hobbits from Old Man Willow. His hand is certainly involved in the happenstance of the fellowship of Gollum and the two hobbits in their journey to Mordor. Illuvatar is very subtle in his direction of the affairs of Middle Earth and none know his mind completely, but he is most interested in the affairs of Men and Elves and hobbits.

Concerning Bombadil as being fatherless, we should note that Illuvatar is father of all and alone truly fatherless. Tom Bombadil may be known to the elves as fatherless, but he is known by many names. He does not so name himself. The elves call him fatherless, but they could call the Valar and Maiar fatherless too. It is strange that Bombadil should be so named. Perhaps, the elves call Bombadil fatherless because he came into being with Arda and to the Elves it seemed he should have a father, whereas the Valar and Maiar came to Arda from outside and are not coeval with Arda. No, he is not Illuvatar.

The most intriguing aspect of Tom is his mastery of the world. He knows the world very well. He knows the tune for every creature, it seems. And since, as someone else remarked, Arda was created by music, it might be said that in knowing the tune for each, Tom truly knows what each thing is. He is master because he knows things deeply and also from the beginning. Tom Bombadil is, but what or who he is, I do not know. He knows and Eru.

Earnil

01-03-2002, 12:14 PM

I heard an opinion from someone else on the Tolkien Online messageboards that they think Tom could have been a dischord in the Great Music that created Arda. I can't remember exactly what it was they said, but it definitely said something about Tom possibly being a dischord in the Great Music that the Ainur made.

Earnil

01-08-2002, 02:50 AM

I read somewhere that Tolkien got the idea for Tom from a doll one of his children had, and he first wrote The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, then later when writing LOTR he introduced Tom into it.

And as for Goldberry, I believe that she could be the daughter of Uinen, one of the Maiar of Ulmo. Because Uinen was a Maiar of the oceans and waters of Middle Earth, so perhaps that could mean the she is the river-woman that is mentioned. But I have noticed one flaw in my theory, Ainur could not reproduce, and so I have come up with Goldberry being a creation of Uinen and Osse, or maybe Uinen and Ulmo, and being kind of like the eagles, having spirits akin to the Maiar in them.

gaffer

01-09-2002, 02:39 AM

it's kind of generally accepted that tom bombadil and goldberry are both maiar spirits, among the first to inhabit middle-earth.

Bucky

01-09-2002, 07:18 AM

Funny, I just started a thread elsewhere on whether Bombadil or Treebeard is older.

I also am reading FOTR & today was in the chapters with Tom....

Goldberry says "He is"
Reminds me of Moses at the burning bush when he asks God what name should I say you sent me by?
God says "I am".

So, from that can we assume Tom always was & always will be?
Is he Illuvator in a human form? I doubt that. If he is, did he, like the Istari, place certain bodily restrictions on himself?

He can't be Elf.
Why?
Because he states he was there & "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside".
No Elves born by then.
Didn't Elbereth create the stars?
The 13 original Valar were there before Melkor, the Dark Lord. (it says in the Silmarillion that Melkor saw what the Valar had done...and descended upon Arda), so he could be one of them or Maiar the Valar brought with them.
If so, I think Orome or Ulmo would be most likely.
But, this doesn't fit into the fact that the Valar dwelt in Valinor, not in Middle Earth, especially in the 3RD Age.

Or, is he the very embodyment of Middle Earth in a person's s body? He does have a unique connection to & mastry of the natural world.

Iluisa Olórin

01-09-2002, 09:04 AM

What if he's of a race Tolkien didn't identify?

Tom Bombadil was never identified and that was Tolkien's intention; to suggest that he might be a Maia or a Vala, an Elf or a spirit or Ilúvatar himself, is futile.

Curufinwe

01-09-2002, 12:26 PM

There is so many theories that could comply with Eru and tom like tom could be Gaia or eru in human form or they could be the same or Eru could of made the world for tom etc. I dont think we will ever know.

J'ohn

01-09-2002, 09:49 PM

Ah, I dunno, Gaffer...

Certainly, as Tom himself says, he was around "before the Dark Lord came from the Outside"...This can only refer to Sauron [some people believe it might refer to Melkor, but he was the first one to enter Arda, after all!]. So, Tom is either a Maia or a Vala. However, the Maiar seem to be influenced by the One Ring, and they desire to have it and keep it, once they own it. As Gandalf has said [Gandalf is a Maia, anyway], "Do not tempt me!". And still, Tom gave back the Ring to Frodo without hesitation.

It is my personal belief that Tom Bombadil is a Vala, more precisely, Aule.

Of course, one can claim that Tom is Illuvatar himself, but who knows? *shrug*

SBS:)

gaffer

01-10-2002, 12:09 AM

i don't know; that's kind of a stretch. first of all, we'd have to be on the same wavelength that, if you're theory was right, he'd be one of the vala that have already been named...there couldn't be one that wasn't accounted for. secondly, i would think that, if one of the vala was missing or at least known to be in middle-earth, it would be pretty well-known, at least to someone like gandalf. (after all, tom got to middle-earth before the itsari and they would have known if aule or someone was already there) just my opinion.

Bucky

01-10-2002, 04:04 AM

Actually, it could, and most likely does mean Morgoth, not Sauron when Tom says that about 'when the Dark Lord came in from the outside'.

Tom prefaces that by saying 'before the dark knew fear', meaning Morgoth hasn't come to import evil to Middle Earth.

I wrote about this elewhere last night.
In the Silmarillion, it says that the Valar came down, made all this nice stuff, & 'Melkor looked down, saw what they had done & decended in wrath upon Arda'.

So, the Valar were there before Morgoth.....

If Tom's one of the Valar, he is about as opposite of Aule as could be.....

J'ohn

01-10-2002, 01:10 PM

~L~ All right, all right, don't jump out on me! I was just making a hypothesis...If the Bombadil issue were so easy to resolve, it wouldn't have been the grand mystery it is... ;)

Gaffer, I think that Elrond indicates that Tom Bombadil goes by many names, and the Valar themselves go by many names, so nominology isn't really an issue...

I'm sure Gandalf would have known about Tom being a Vala, but, think about it. If he did know, would he tell anyone? "Hey, fellas, there's a Vala living in the Withywindle, let's all pay him a visit and ask for autographs and favours!"...
Naaaah...:)

Bucky, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the issue...I'd be glad to hear your suggestion on the issue...

I would like to state, though, that if we want to be nit-picky about Tom's speech, then it should be pointed out that "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn"...from that, one can judge that Tom can't be a Maia that arrived in Arda belatedly.

From what I remember from the 1st Book of Lost Tales, when [Part III, I think...or is that IV] it refers to the Valar coming to Middle Earth, Manwe and Varda in particular, it is written that "Now swiftly as they fared, Melkor was there before them...".
I take that as a clue that Melkor was the first "creature" to enter Arda.

Admittedly, your quote from the Silmarillion would counter that [is the Silmarillion more valid than the Books of Lost Tales? Which comes chronologically after LotR?], but I've always thought that te Valar came and went in Arda for some time...and while Melkor was back in the Outside, the Valar crafted the world...

After all, Treebeard claims to be the oldest living thing to still walk beneath the Sun... Tom also says he's the Eldest...That seems to be quite a conflict... except if Tom isn't "living", in the strict sense of the word... so, he's either Eru, a Vala, or a Maia.
Tom can't have been around before Melkor, because, I believe, Melkor was the first one to enter Arda...And, in any case, the hobbits don't know of any other "Dark Lord" exept Sauron. If Tom referred to Melkor, he should have used a different nomination, one that hobbits would be able to understand [in the Two Towers, it becomes obvious that the hobbits know about the theft of the Silmarills by Melkor (Morgoth)]

So, it's Maia, Vala, Eru. Maiar are influenced by the Ring, and Tom isn't, so he can't be a Maia.

Ultimately, he must be either a Vala or Eru. If he IS a Vala, then I think that it boils down to Aule. He can't ne the warlike Tulka or Orome; Manwe sounds too important to visit Middle-Earth; Ulmo most likely has never dwelt on land; Irmo and Mandos are the spirit guardians, so they can't really go outside Valinor. Guess who is singled out...;)

I think that Aule looks like Tom in many aspects. He is not posessive, and he is very interested in the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf found the hobbits fascinating, so, why wouldn't a Vala that likes the Children of Illuvatar, also like to be close to hobbits? If Aule were to appear to hobbits, wouldn't he look much like Tom, always happy and dancing and singing?

Singing...that is a key element...the Ainur were the ones that sang the melody which spun Arda... And the Valar were the greatest of the Ainur... In some way, Tom controlled the Old Willow Man with singing..."I know the tune for him", Tom said.

I still rest my case that Tom is Aule... Not too probable, but possible, nonetheless...

SBS:)

Branwen

01-10-2002, 08:39 PM

...Tom is older than Treebeard,because look what he says about himself in LOTR:'Eldest,that's what I am.Tom was here before the river and the TREES...'Treebeard is an ent but before the Elves taught him to talk he was nothing but a tree.
You maybe are right that Tom is Aule...But only maybe,cause somehow I feel it's impossible to find out who Tom really is.He's an enigma of Arda,and that's all we can be sure about...

J'ohn

01-10-2002, 09:07 PM

Hmmm...I haven't thought of that, really...I thought he was refering to his territory, the Old Forest... Not Middle-Earth in general...Feh...

I agree, though, Tom is an enigma, and certainly one that is not in our hands to solve!

SBS:)

Branwen

01-10-2002, 10:34 PM

exactly.Still,we can try cause it's simply interesting!(Playing detectives):)

Tyaronumen

01-10-2002, 11:27 PM

I do not think it very likely (well, actually it is extremely UNLIKELY) that Bombadil is Aule.

Aüle is, if you recall, basically Tolkien's equivalent of the Greek Hephaestus or the Roman Vulcan... ie. he is a smith god. He created (with unwanted "help" from Morgoth's chaotic doings) the earth, mountains, and rocks... shaping the land, etc... ie. he is the Vala most concerned with the "stuff and form" of Arda -- rock and metal.

He created Angainor, which chained Melkor for three Ages, and forged the vessels which now hold the sun and moon.

Later, we discover that he creates the Khazad, who clearly take after Aule in their love of metals and working the Earth...

He also trains the Noldor in smithcraft, indirectly enabling wonders such as the Silmarils, etc.

NOW: Bombadil does none of these things. While Tom seems to love his land and is the Master, he seems more content to live and let live amongst the trees. Now in the Silmarillion, you may recall that Aule and Kementari are speaking, and she worries about the Khazad cutting down trees... Aule says something to the effect of: "Yet they will need wood" and then returns to his work...

Bombadil seems to lend far more *attention* and concern to the children of Yavanna than Aule... I also notice that Bombadil is far more of a "space-cadet" type than Aule is portrayed as being... Bombadil is portrayed as a very merry fellow and his boots were yellow. We don't see much mirth or cheer from the Valar, and admittedly we don't know if Aule even wore boots.

Bit about the boots was probably a bit too facetious. :) Hmm.. but anyhow, look at the *followers* of Aule that we know about... these followers being Sauron and Curunir, both of whom were the chief of Aule's people at various times. Now does Bombadil *seem* like the type to have followers (if, indeed, he has any, since we see them not) who are easily turned to evil because of their over-powering desires to make new and wonderful things?

Also, Aule was tempted, similarly to Curunir and Sauron, in his creation of the Khazad. His love of creating and wish to share with others appear to have been his primary motivators so Iluvatar forgave him, but nonetheless, he gave in at least partially... We never really see Bombadil cave in to jack-squat or demonstrate any signs that he may have been tempted... as you note, he doesn't even appear to have cared about the Ring!

Final note... Goldberry. Goldberry is clearly "The River's Daughter"... Yavanna is certainly not ANY river's daughter in any way, shape or form. And if she were to go in disguise (with Aule), I doubt she would do so in the guise of The River's Daughter, which title seems to tie Goldberry more closely to the people of Ulmo than to those of Kementari.

Just my opinions!

I prefer Goldberry's answer on this subject... It is, in my opinion, the only valid response that can be given to identify anything accurately: "He is."

Branwen

01-11-2002, 01:37 AM

I agree...
(One more thing according to which Tom couldn't be Aule:in Elvish,'aule'means 'invention'.To my mind it has nothing to do with Tom...)
By the way:here is one more thread where people discuss about who is Tom Bombadil.So,one guy has written:'when writing books,people often put themselves into their books.Maybe Tom is Tolkien himself?'
I think it's avery interesting idea,isn't it?...

A Ranger

01-11-2002, 02:03 AM

I formally beleived that it was impossible for Tom to be Aule as well up until quite recently while re-reading my copy of The Fellowship of the Ring I noticed something Tom had said as he parted with the hobbits " 'I've got things to do,' he said: ' my making and my singing, my talkign and my walking and my watching of the country.....". The key word in that is making. As for Tom beinging more 'out there' then Aule I think I think i may have figured out why this may be. I believe that he was cloaked in flesh as the istari were, this makes all the peices of the puszzle of Tom come together. Imagine suddenly having a human body, with all the feelings that come along with it, it would be enough to put anyone through a loop. The biggest problem with Tom being Aule was always that he couldn't stand against Sauron, but if he was cloaked in flesh he would be weakend. The may evidence to my theory is Goldberry's song, "He (Frodo) stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was diffrent: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to the mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange."

Branwen

01-11-2002, 11:19 AM

alright,that sounds pretty possible for Tom to be Aule.But,how to explain these words about Tom:'he'll be the Last as he was the First'(LotR)?Aule certainly wasn't the first,the first was Eru.On the other hand,this may only mean that Tom was the first to come to the Middle-earth,then everything suits. Oh,and one more 'but'(I think someone has already mentioned that)-Goldberry.Aule's wife is Yavanna,so logically,Goldberry=Yavanna.Well,THAT is really impossible,cause Golberry...wait!!!Look:'in the Valian Years,Yavanna planted the seeds she had prepared for so long...'Seeds!And Goldberry loved plants,especially flowers,so much!So probably,Goldberry could be Yavanna...Just,how to explain 'she was the daughter of the River?...'

Lantarion

01-11-2002, 04:44 PM

As Tom is an enigma, I don't think it would be right to try to categorize him in any slot created by Tolkien; he himself did, indeed, create Tom as a mystery, a kind and jolly guy who is extremely knowledgable and powerful under a calm, amusing surface.
So, I wouldn't call him a Maia or a Vala(although I see it as a possibilty that he is of the latter); in the very popular poll- thread about Tom Bombadil (I think it was in this forum, or in the Hall of Fire) there is a very interesting option: 'nature spirit'. I think Tolkien didn't create Tom as anything in particular. Perhaps he was an unexpected turn of events; perhaps he came unannounced, without Iluvatar knowing. For where did Eru come from?
I think it should be left at that, that Tom is a complete and utter mystery, but a humorous and jolly character nonetheless.

Oh, and Branwen:
'Treebeard is an ent but before the Elves taught him to talk he was nothing but a tree.
Treebeard was not just a tree; he was a promonent figure among the Ents, who were Olvar. They were Maiar, in a sense, as Gandalf is a Maia, but with different power. They were set upon Middle-earth to protect the trees (the highest of the Olvar).

Branwen

01-11-2002, 06:42 PM

Alright,Tom's an enigma for US.But Tolkien himself knew who is Tom Bombadil of course;I think he just might not have wanted to tell his readers the correct answer,maybe feeling that enigmas are important.Still,I believe Tolkien has left some clues for those who want to find out the true about Tom.We just gotta keep on searching.....

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE:)

(and about Treebeard-my mistake...)

J'ohn

01-11-2002, 10:28 PM

Pontifex...I think it's no use wondering why Tolkien put Tom in there, and described him as he is... He became an element of the world of Arda, and as such we must judge him...

I agree, perhaps Tolkien just thought to implement Tom when LotR was just a "sequel to The Hobbit"... but then again, one would argue why he stayed there...

Your nature spirit proposition, though, is exquisite! In fact, it made sense to me for a long time...
However, as a nature spirit, he wouldn't have been able to exit his "territory", his "area of infuence"...the Old Forest. But he does, still, and plenty of times, and he even goes to urban areas, like his visits to Farmer Maggot...That's why I discarded the spirit thing...

As I can see, Branwen, you found out about Goldberry! :)
Yes, I think that Goldberry really is Yavanna...
Well, when I think of Goldberry, three female Vala come to mind...Yavanna, Nessa and Vana. Of those three, Yavanna is the one who cares about plants most... Let me find my Silmarillion...there's a description of her there...
A-ha!
"In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves."

Remember that Goldberry is clad in green more often than not... And, when we first meet her, she has her feet in water...
Also, note the image of her as the departing hobbits see her...it looks strikingly like what Tolkien described Yavanna above...

It is futile to go on talking about this, I know...

But I looooove it! :)

SBS:)

Branwen

01-11-2002, 10:51 PM

okidokie,so Goldberry is Yavanna,then Tom is Aule....Well,now what?...Can we announce to the rest-hey everybody,we KNOW who Tom is?...
Somehow I don't think so...it was too simple to be true!
OK,to sum up,the main theories about who is Tom are:
-Aule's version
-'nature spirit' version
-Eru version
-Tolkien version
-enigma version
...and for now,the last one seems to be the best....
ah...I think we need some refreshing ideas..:)

Bombadillodillo

01-12-2002, 06:55 PM

"Tom Bombadil is the worst character in the movie"

Vidsa,

He is perhaps my favorite person in Middle Earth. My complaint would be that he doesn't make it into the movie.

Most argue he would be a distraction in the film, but he plays the same role in the book. His role, I think is to raise two important: who is he and why is he?

Questions Tolkien thinks are too much lacking in post modern culture and thought. He is a mystery and I do not know who Bombadil is, but he makes you wonder. That is the point.

I am not saying that this is the hidden agenda of Tolkien or the point of the whole book, but if he had any ax to grind against modernity, I do think it comes out most of all in Tom Bombadil. The story is meant to be just that a good story, a tale of wonderful and mysterious deeds, a modern myth and it succeeds. But at the heart of good myth is mystery and Bombadil is just that.

Chymaera

01-13-2002, 02:47 PM

-Goldberry.Aule's wife is Yavanna,so logically,Goldberry=Yavanna.Well,THAT is really impossible,cause Golberry...wait!!!Look:'in the Valian Years,Yavanna planted the seeds she had prepared for so long...'Seeds!And Goldberry loved plants,especially flowers,so much!So probably,Goldberry could be Yavanna...Just,how to explain 'she was the daughter of the River?...'

Well Ulmo was passing by and well...... :D
that is like kissing your sister isn't it :eek:

J'ohn

01-13-2002, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Branwen
-enigma version
...and for now,the last one seems to be the best....
ah...I think we need some refreshing ideas..:)

I agree wholeheartedly!

[puts thinking cap on]

Hey, I know! :D

Tom Bombadil is a program...like Agents from the Matrix...he's been sent to monitor Arda...Yes...or maybe he's a virus...or maybe he's an orc...

[takes thinking cap off]
[dips head in cold water]

SBS;)

Úlairi

01-14-2002, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by J'ohn
~L~ All right, all right, don't jump out on me! I was just making a hypothesis...If the Bombadil issue were so easy to resolve, it wouldn't have been the grand mystery it is... ;)

Gaffer, I think that Elrond indicates that Tom Bombadil goes by many names, and the Valar themselves go by many names, so nominology isn't really an issue...

I'm sure Gandalf would have known about Tom being a Vala, but, think about it. If he did know, would he tell anyone? "Hey, fellas, there's a Vala living in the Withywindle, let's all pay him a visit and ask for autographs and favours!"...
Naaaah...:)

Bucky, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the issue...I'd be glad to hear your suggestion on the issue...

I would like to state, though, that if we want to be nit-picky about Tom's speech, then it should be pointed out that "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn"...from that, one can judge that Tom can't be a Maia that arrived in Arda belatedly.

From what I remember from the 1st Book of Lost Tales, when [Part III, I think...or is that IV] it refers to the Valar coming to Middle Earth, Manwe and Varda in particular, it is written that "Now swiftly as they fared, Melkor was there before them...".
I take that as a clue that Melkor was the first "creature" to enter Arda.

Admittedly, your quote from the Silmarillion would counter that [is the Silmarillion more valid than the Books of Lost Tales? Which comes chronologically after LotR?], but I've always thought that te Valar came and went in Arda for some time...and while Melkor was back in the Outside, the Valar crafted the world...

After all, Treebeard claims to be the oldest living thing to still walk beneath the Sun... Tom also says he's the Eldest...That seems to be quite a conflict... except if Tom isn't "living", in the strict sense of the word... so, he's either Eru, a Vala, or a Maia.
Tom can't have been around before Melkor, because, I believe, Melkor was the first one to enter Arda...And, in any case, the hobbits don't know of any other "Dark Lord" exept Sauron. If Tom referred to Melkor, he should have used a different nomination, one that hobbits would be able to understand [in the Two Towers, it becomes obvious that the hobbits know about the theft of the Silmarills by Melkor (Morgoth)]

So, it's Maia, Vala, Eru. Maiar are influenced by the Ring, and Tom isn't, so he can't be a Maia.

Ultimately, he must be either a Vala or Eru. If he IS a Vala, then I think that it boils down to Aule. He can't ne the warlike Tulka or Orome; Manwe sounds too important to visit Middle-Earth; Ulmo most likely has never dwelt on land; Irmo and Mandos are the spirit guardians, so they can't really go outside Valinor. Guess who is singled out...;)

I think that Aule looks like Tom in many aspects. He is not posessive, and he is very interested in the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf found the hobbits fascinating, so, why wouldn't a Vala that likes the Children of Illuvatar, also like to be close to hobbits? If Aule were to appear to hobbits, wouldn't he look much like Tom, always happy and dancing and singing?

Singing...that is a key element...the Ainur were the ones that sang the melody which spun Arda... And the Valar were the greatest of the Ainur... In some way, Tom controlled the Old Willow Man with singing..."I know the tune for him", Tom said.

I still rest my case that Tom is Aule... Not too probable, but possible, nonetheless...

SBS:) If Tom Bombadil is Aule wouldn't Sauron try to drive him out or even flee from the presence from his former master? I don't believe Bombadil could be Aule for all the Valar were supposed to dwell in Valinor until the return of Melkor and Bombadil would care, for the Valar were known to get angry (look at the downfall of Numenor) and I believe that Aule would have attempted to drive Sauron out for revenge.