Ents or elves? who is older?

[Maeglin]

It says somewhere in the sil, when that lady vala(i can't remember he name) is talking to illuvatar that she most wants to protect her trees, so illuvatar says he'll put shepherds of the trees in ME, so what do u guys think came first, Ents or elves, or have both been there for just as long as the other?:confused:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ents. I was taking a quiz and got that question wrong. I don't know where any references to this are, so I'm sorry I can't help anymore than just saying, "Ents".

[Thorin]

Treebeard is called by Gandalf, "The oldest living thing on ME". That means that he was older than Galadriel (Who was about 8500 years old) and Cirdan (about 10500). However, though Cirdan was the oldest elf (and was born probably shortly after the elves awoke, he was not one of the firstborn. The elves awoke the Ents and were the firstborn of creation.

How many years the elves predate the Ents is unknown.

[Winged Elf]

To back up Thorin's comment, I found a couple of quotes from Treebeard in TTT. He says "Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did". Then a little later, he says "it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, though our ways have parted since".

[Ceorl]

I am going to have to answer this without my book as I stupidly just lent out my Silmarillion, but I know enough, lets just hope I dont leave anything else.

This links slightly to the Bombadil debate, as in the LoTR both Bombadil and Fangorn were considered oldest. However Fangorn was considered the oldest living thing, and that supports the idea of Bombadil being one of the Ainur.

However what this does tell us is that Fangorn was definitely older than the Elves. When Yavanna spoke to Manwe about it, he thought back to the Ainulindale and he saw there the trees of Yavanna who lifted up their arms to the sky, and some sang to Illuvatar in their joy.

Therefore I would say that Ents are older than Elves, however they are not Children of Illuvatar, being rather Children of Yavanna, given voice by Eru.

[Bombadillo]

the elves made the trees talk, and this mede some trees more entish.
to protect the trees yavanna made the ents, who sometimes became more threeish...
i don't know what is trough, did yasvanna mede the ents before the elves learned some trees talk, or did the elves made trees talk before there where ents... I don't know sorry

[Lhunithiliel]

BEHOLD !

Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, mosses and grasses and great ferns, and trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in a green twilight. And beasts came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the shadows of the woods. As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of Yavanna; but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended.

AND...

Then Yavanna was silent and looked into her own thought. And she answered: 'Because my heart is anxious, thinking of the days to come. All my works are dear to me. Is it not enough that Melkor should have marred so many? Shall nothing that I have devised be free from the dominion of others?'

and finally...

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared .

Does it mean Ents and Elves came alive at one and the same time? Perhaps.

[Maeglin]

Wow I never thought something I could write would start such a big debate:D , but after reading those last quotes It makes me think that both elves and ents probably came alive at the same time.

[fersganjh]

well.... ents r the very living essence of nature. they're the tree people. they have lived b4 nature's beginning. in a way, they kind of sparked its formation. elves lived alongside nature, but that doesn't mean they lived alongside the ents.... i believe the ents r older.

[Elfstone]

I think that the Ents are older and the Elves just woke them up.

[Lhunithiliel]

fersganjh and Elfstone, I suggest kindly you should carefully read the above quotes I provided! They are from The Silmarillion although I'm sure there are a lot of other similar in other written works of the Great Master, where he explains the origin of the Ents. One has to just look for them and then make conclusions.... based on facts. And the facts come from the author himself. All we can do is comment on these FACTS.

Of course we can always express our understanding and perception of any of the characters in Tolkien's books and it's something that I highly appreciate, ..... but facts are facts :) :rolleyes:

[Sam_Gamgee]

the only reference i knwo of and i dont knwo the page. but im pretty sure treebeard had one line that said ents are old even older then elves. so.............

[Thorin]

Ents were not made from trees. They were made tree like, to take care of the trees.Just because trees were a part of creation, doesn't mean that the Ents were "trees in hiding". Yes, Treebeard says that the elves "woke up the trees" implying Ents, but I think that Ents were still a special creation, otherwise, ever tree in ME could be an Ent which is highly unlikely.

I doubt that if Eru never allowed Aule's creation (dwarves) to wake up before His own creation (elves), he wouldn't allow Yavannah to have her creation exist before Eru.

I think Yavannah's lament was that she saw the children of Iluvatar and was jealous because she didn't have such a creation to be a god over. Hence, Eru granted her her own creation to be master of.

[Lhunithiliel]

I doubt that if Eru allowed Aule's creation (dwarves) to wake up before His own creation (elves), he wouldn't allow Yavannah to have her creation exist before Eru
Exactly!
Ents, I guess, appeared almost at the same time as Elves. I imagine, however that at first neither of them knew about the existance of the other. But as the Elves showed a strong interest towards the world they lived in, they perhaps made the first step towards the acquaintance with the strange race of the Ents
"Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did".

[Lantarion]

Welcome to the forum, Fersganjh! Interesting name. ;)
I can see that you have not read the Silmarillion. Please do, it is the best book Tolkien wrote IMHO. You will learn almost everything necessary to getting the most out of the other books (eg. the LotR).

[fersganjh]

to Lhunithiliel: I read ur thread... & I don't know where they're from (my guess is the Silmarillion :confused: ) most likely the Ents and Elves did originate @ the same time almost, but the Ents have existed before the First Age and record of the appendixes show the Elves came to Middle Eath around the beginning of the First Age, so if ur statement is true both races dwelled in different places @ 1st...
to Lantarion: I have yet 2 read the Silmarillion, but I will be presently. Thanks for recommending the book... - fersganjh (stands for many things):)

[Lhunithiliel]

fersganjh, yes, the quotes I provided are from The Silmarillion.

But where did you get the impression that the Ents and the Elves lived in different places? The Ents were created by Yavanna to protect her work in ME from the Children of Illuvatar and those of Aule and from all other creatures especially those created by Melkor. And one of the quotes I provided clearly speaks about this point as well as about the fact that when the Firstborn woke up at the same time became alive the creations of Yavanna - the Ents. But they both lived in ME.

And the more I think the more I am convinced that with the awakening of the Elves a lot of forms of the "Good" were also awoken, not the Ents only. That was a kind of a symbol of the revival of the forces of Good after Evil had ruled for ages and had caused a disastrous distruction in ME.

......The ever-lasting process in the Universe, you see - like the tide

[zarda]

Treebeard said the following :

...learn now the lore of living creatures!
first name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the Elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses:...

wouldn't that go in the order of how they came proving that elves are older?
I don't know and I keep getting this thing at the back of my mind saying that the Ents were around earlyer. But I can't remember anything from the sil, :D.

[Adrastea]

I haven't read the sil here but I am guessing that this line would prove other wise: Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;

Just my guess.....

[Lhunithiliel]

Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Mountaines were changed quite a few times! Read the Silamrillion! ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Lhunithiliel it's not "perhaps",they DO come alive at one and the same time!!!As you said facts are facts.

[zarda]

...'when you see Treebread you will learn much. for Treebread is Fangorn, and the oldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things.'

Said bye Gandalf, book 2 page 143, chapter 8 "The road to Isengard" :D

[Gil-Galad]

tztzt.....read the quote which Lhunithiliel has posted from the Sil.It explains everything ,that's why I agree with her.But if you haven't read The Silmarillion you'd better read it as soon as you can.It's great thrust me!:p :) ;)

[Ancalagon]

I think there are two possible questions here that we must consider. Were Ents actually living, walking beings at the same time as the Elves awakened? Were Elves actually older than Ents?

I must admit that I have a view that might conflict with some others being argued here.

Firstly, I do not beleive 'Ents' were walking, talking beings at the same time as the awakening of Elves.
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared .
In so much as I feel that Treebeard might be the oldest living being as Gandalf suggests, he was a tree at first and not an actual walking, talking being that he became. It was not until he was raised by the spirits that heeded the call of Yvanna that he became....alert!
However, at that very same time the Elves had awoken and began to learn and understand all living things around them. Yet, although Treebeard could be considered a spirtual being of sorts, it was the Elves who actually awoke him and taught him speech.
Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did.
It sounds very right and proper. Who calls you _hobbits_, though? That does not sound elvish to me. Elves made all the old words: they began it.'
I take more kindly to Elves than to others: it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, though our ways have parted since.

So, theoretically Treebeard is the oldest living thing, as he was already a tree, which of course is a living thing, but he was not awake until the Elves first spoke to him. Then he became an actual 'shepherd of Trees' who walked and talked among both Elves and Trees alike.

So, my conclusion is that Treebeard, was the oldest, but not as an Ent, but a tree. Elves awoke and Treebeard first stirred as a new form once embelished with the spirits called by Yvanna at that very same time. Elves then spoke with him and awoke that spirit and awoke that Ent whom we now acknowledge as Treebeard, first of the Ents.

Hope that makes sense?

[Gil-Galad]

Yeah,Anc,it makes sense:) :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, Mighty Dragon!!! *bows*
First of all, entirely OFF the topic, let me congratulate you for the awsome avatar!
You, guys, seem to have a new one every week or smth! :p

Back to the topic!
I see your point and AS A TREE - yes Treebeard could have been perhaps called elder than the Firstborn.
Yet, I am reluctant to agree with you on one issue:


Ancalagon:
Yet, although Treebeard could be considered a spirtual being of sorts, it was the Elves who actually awoke him and taught him speech.
compare with:
.....then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared .
I just don't "buy" the idea that it were the Elves who woke up the trees. They may have taught them to speak the Elvish language in order to communicate with each other - yes! But before that, before the Elves decided to do that, I think the Ents had already been awake and active (done by the spirits of Yavanna) only didn't speak the language of the Elves.

[Ancalagon]

The Avatar is courtesy of Grond's Design Pit (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6140)

As for the Elves and Ents question; Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did.
Although the 'spirits from afar' inhabited the trees, they were still inactive until the Elves awoke that spirit and taught it speech. This suggests that Trees were unable to communicate up to that point, even with each other, however, I do not personally subscribe to this idea. As described in Appendix F, The Return of the King; The most ancient people surviving in the Third Age were the Onodrim or Enyd. Ent was the form of their name in the language of Rohan. They were known to the Eldar in ancient days, and to the Eldar indeed the Ents ascribed not their own language but the desire for speech. The Lanaguage that they had made was unlike all others; slow and sonorous, agglomerated, reptitive, indeed long-winded; formed of a multiplicity of vowel-shades and distinctions of tone and quantity which even the loremasters of the Eldar had not attempted to represent in writing. They used it among themselves; but they had no need to keep it secret, for no others could learn it.
Although this passage also ascribes Ents as the oldest surving people, I still beleive that they were in a more 'tree-like' state in the beginning. Tolkien himself noted a scribbled reference to their origin in 'The Treason of Isenguard; Treebeard,' asking; 'Did the first lord of the Elves make Tree-folk in order to or through trying to understand trees?'
Although this does not give any clear indication of the final outcome of the question, it does appear to support the final version of Treebeards expressed gratitude towards the Eldar for 'awakening' the trees and teaching them speech.
Of course, we already know Ents could communicate prior to learning the language of the Eldar as shown in my previous quote from App. F, though whether they were mobile is still very much a question that remains unclear. Yet, the fact they could communicate in their own language lends more weight to the idea that they are older still than Elves, yet not as they becmae after Elves.

The quote you give referring to Yvanna only suggests that her thought called the spirits from afar, but not what would become the finished article, Ents. Ents depended on Elves to prompt them, teach them and awaken the spirit within them. This is why the Ents feel they owe so much to the Elves. I am sure though, in the endless pursuit of knowledge on this subject, we will eventually uncover more that satisfies the questions we all have regarding this age-old question;)

[fersganjh]

the Elves came to Middle Eath around the beginning of the First Age, so if ur statement is true both races dwelled in different places @ 1st... <- I confused myself (being the entry was written @ around 10:30-11:00 @ nite) :( sorry, but ur rite. thanks 4 helping me see that (it makes sense now) ^-^ - fesganjh

[Ancalagon]

fersganjh, do you send a lot of text messages on your mobile phone?

[Anamatar IV]

appendix f of other races:
Ents: The most ancient people surviving the third age

Makes sense with all the other quotes doesnt it?

[Thorin]

Nope. I still subscribe to the Elves being older.

quote:

"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."

Sounds like the Elves were awake before the Ents. Yes, they may have existed as trees, but is that considered "alive", or can that be considered the race of Ents? I don't think so. And as I've said before, Eru was very jealous of no other living being coming before His children. So much that He put Aule's dwarfs "down" until the elves awoke. And then after that, you have the quote above of Yavanna's thought awakening.

quote:

"Ents: The most ancient people surviving the third age"

That doesn't mean what it sounds, necessarily. Treebeard and other Ents have existed either since they awoke, or not long after that. In that case, they would be considered the oldest race in the Third Age, because Cirdan and Galadriel weren't as old as they were. Hence, the statement of Gandalf that Treebeard was "the oldest living thing on ME" is very true.

[Lhunithiliel]

I think there are two possible questions here that we must consider.
Indeed, Ancalagon! :)
What we have here are two "electricity poles": the "+" and the "-". While reading your posts I feel as if caugth in a flowing "current" between these two - you are at the "+" and the next moment - at the "-"! I'll get an electrick shock , man! :D

As for speech as a determing argument of who is older - allow me not accept it. Because of my profession I constantly deal with words and speach and I have clearly understood - SPEACH is ONLY a method of communication between individuals. Great achievement! I agree! But it doesn't necessarily mean that all the creatures in this world should and could have the SAME speech.
The Ents, as the quote provided by Anc states, had their own language BEFORE the Elves brought the Elvish as the way of communication. We know that every people in ME had their own language, yet at first it was the Elvish that was most widely spoken and then came the Common Language of ME.
So, not speaking the same language can never mean that one or another individual does NOT exist!
LOOK AT US!!! Coming from different lands and talking in a "Common" language!
Don't tell me that if I spoke my mother tongue, you would deny my existance!;) :p ;) You would not understand anything I could say, but I still would be here, alive and real! :p

[Thorin]

Yes, but Treebeard distinctly said that the Elves cured them of dumbness long ago and taught them to speak. It does not say that the Elves taught them elvish, but to speak. So when it says that the Ents had their own language before they learned elvish, that puts more crediblility that the Elves existed before the Ents.

Whether speaking Entish or Elvish, the Ents were still awoken and taught language by the Elves.

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
So, my conclusion is that Treebeard, was the oldest, but not as an Ent, but a tree. Elves awoke and Treebeard first stirred as a new form once embelished with the spirits called by Yvanna at that very same time. Elves then spoke with him and awoke that spirit and awoke that Ent whom we now acknowledge as Treebeard, first of the Ents.

I beg to disagree.

Treebeard says:
But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness
has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am

Apparently, he wasn't the oldest tree. Since he is "the oldest living thing in ME," Tolkien did not mean tree as a living thing in this context. More, at the time Elves avoke, he didn't exist. Elves, therefore, are older. And yet, there is no contradiction, because, he still can be the oldest living thing in ME if none of those who awoke him is in ME anymore.

[Ancalagon]

I am ever eager to learn my good Pohuist, and I think I just have:) Thanks!

[pohuist]

Thanks. BTW, I really like your new avatar. I always wondered before why Ancalagon the Black was green.:)

[Maeglin]

Well everyone has made some very good points, but I think this could be one of those arguments that never ends. Therefore I have reached the conclusion that what we are debating is one of those mysteries that Tolkien never intended us to solve.:rolleyes:

[Ancalagon]

Hmmm, in my humble opinion and in mine own eyes, it is clear to me that it is solved!

[Lhunithiliel]

Do you mean we comment no more?
And what, if you please, is the final "verdict"?
For if you're saying that Elves are older than Ents, I somehow would not feel satisfied (who cares?!;) ).

Even if you have decided to stop this discussion, I however would like to point out that IMO, some confusion has been introduced.
You see: Ents were once trees and it was Yavanna (NOT the Elves!!!) who made them alive beings to watch over her creations and to be feared by the others. Not every tree, however, became an Ent. Therefore it would be quite normal that there are trees much older than Treebeard, because he perceives himself as an Ent - meaning a living creature with the abilities to act not just exist. Of course he knows his lineage very well. On the other hand, some Ents had gradually been turning into trees again. Right?
What I'm trying to clear up here, is that the Ents - speaking is one thing and the Ents - Yavanna's children who awoke at the same time as the Elves - another.
And finallY;
So when it says that the Ents had their own language before they learned elvish, that puts more crediblility that the Elves existed before the Ents.
I definitely don't find ANY logic whatsoever in this statement. Could you, would you, explain yourself?

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Ents were once trees and it was Yavanna (NOT the Elves!!!) who made them alive beings to watch over her creations and to be feared by the others. Not every tree, however, became an Ent. Therefore it would be quite normal that there are trees much older than Treebeard, because he perceives himself as an Ent - meaning a living creature with the abilities to act not just exist. Of course he knows his lineage very well.

Do your cosider your age from the time you were born (first appeared in this world) of from the time you were able to "act, not just exist" -- not just scream and wet pampers but communicate with the world, crawl (if not walk) on your own, etc.?

[Thorin]

If you read the rest of my post, you might have been able to draw your own conclusion, but I'll spell it out...

People were saying that the Ents had their own language before elvish. They used the quote of Treebeard saying that the Elves taught them to speak, meaning that they taught them elvish. Because Entish is an ancient language, conclusions might be drawn that the Ents were considerably older than the Elves (i.e. the Ents were speaking Entish long before the Elves taught them elvish.)

I was saying that the Elves taught them to speak. Hence, Treebeard's quote shows to me that the elves were probably older, because they had already formed their own language before the Ents even awoke and were taught to speak by the Elves and developed their own language.

Therefore, the fact that the Elves woke the Ents and taught them to speak, period (whether they learned elvish or entish first), gives more weight that the Elves existed before the Ents.

[Grond]

My personal opinion is that the Firstborn were..... well.. they were the Firstborn. The Sil has several instances of Eru insisting that he wants nothing to interfere with his Firstborn being the Firstborn. from The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna
But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: 'Even as I gave being to the thought of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth: and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.'And then there is this also....from The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
It is told that even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Ilúvatar. By the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight, and have revered Varda Elentári above all the Valar.One final thing is that Cirdan was born much later than the first Elves awakening at Cuivienen. He was born just before the great march began. So, Treebeard could easily be the oldest living thing without being older than all the Elvish race.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared .

IMO the quote presented by Lhunithiliel together with this statement a few sentences later in the Sil 'Nay,' he said, 'only the trees of Aulë will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon us. But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.'provide us with all the necessary information, for - again IMO - they seem to indicate that the Ents are the Shepherds of the Trees and that they are spirits summoned from afar which would make them a lot older than any of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Just my humble thoughts, which - of course - cannot be held up against those of all the mighty (even if self-acclaimed) learned whatsoever-masters around here ;)

[Thorin]

Keep in mind, Walter, that by that same reckoning, Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf would be the oldest as well, but on ME Gandalf was only about 2000 years old. Just because the Ents might have been spirits before they became Ents, that doesn't make them the oldest on Middle Earth. Their inhabited bodies are not as old as the elves, though they may have pre-existed.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Thorin
Keep in mind, Walter, that by that same reckoning, Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf would be the oldest as well, but on ME Gandalf was only about 2000 years old. Just because the Ents might have been spirits before they became Ents, that doesn't make them the oldest on Middle Earth. Their inhabited bodies are not as old as the elves, though they may have pre-existed. Of course I see your point, but does that mean that in your opinion it's the body that counts and not the spirit?

[Ariana Undomiel]

I think that Galadriel could have been older that Treebeard, but that is because I believe she was born in Valanar. I might be mistaken though. I do believe that Treebeard is the oldest inhabitant of Middle Earth however. Is Tom Bombadil next or the elves? Boy do I need to read the rest of the Sil.

~Ariana

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter

IMO the quote presented by Lhunithiliel together with this statement a few sentences later in the Sil provide us with all the necessary information, for - again IMO - they seem to indicate that the Ents are the Shepherds of the Trees and that they are spirits summoned from afar which would make them a lot older than any of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Just my humble thoughts, which - of course - cannot be held up against those of all the mighty (even if self-acclaimed) learned whatsoever-masters around here ;) LOL! Keep reading and maybe one day you will be deserving of the title of self-proclaimed learned whatsoever-master. ;):p

[Lhunithiliel]

From Thorin:
Just because the Ents might have been spirits before they became Ents, that doesn't make them the oldest on Middle Earth. Their inhabited bodies are not as old as the elves, though they may have pre-existed.
Well, now, Thorin, why do I see a step backwards....or aside, if you prefer....? :p NOW, it is (you are saying), that the Ents are not the oldest in ME, but if considered somewhere else, they might be.....
Mmmm! Shaky arguments!
We here have a saying "as a drawing man holding onto a straw".....That is how such an argument looks!
Because, will you please look up....yes, a bit further..... What is the question of this thread: "Ents of Elves? WHO IS OLDER?" -
It clearly doesn,t state that we are expected to discuss the existance of the Ents ONLY in ME!
Because, then, IF following this logic, one can get the impression that the Valar are not Ainur...

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
LOL! Keep reading and maybe one day you will be deserving of the title of self-proclaimed learned whatsoever-master. ;):p I dunno why you felt addressed but okay... ;)

But actually no, I'll stick to the "Scio me nihil scire", which I feel suits me better and is closer to the truth...

[Grond]

Now we get into speculation about the age of spirits? Let me post this question then. How old were the "spirits" that went into the Elves? Surely Eru didn't just "create" those spirits. Surely they too already existed somewhere.

And Walter, I felt addressed because there is little doubt who you were addressing. ;):p

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

Well, now, Thorin, why do I see a step backwards....or aside, if you prefer....? :p NOW, it is (you are saying), that the Ents are not the oldest in ME, but if considered somewhere else, they might be.....
Mmmm! Shaky arguments!
We here have a saying "as a drawing man holding onto a straw".....That is how such an argument looks!
Because, will you please look up....yes, a bit further..... What is the question of this thread: "Ents of Elves? WHO IS OLDER?" -
It clearly doesn,t state that we are expected to discuss the existance of the Ents ONLY in ME!
Because, then, IF following this logic, one can get the impression that the Valar are not Ainur...

Actually, no steps whatsoever....I believe that the whole argument about who is eldest stems from Gandalf and Treebeard's comments in LoTR. One therefore must take that argument in its proper context, that is, within the scope of ME and not pre-existing conditions.

Had Gandalf been taking that in consideration when he said that Treebeard was the oldest living thing, he would have (at the least) said that they existed together, for the Istari would be just as old as Treebeard...I don't think you can take into account any pre-existence, for that is not measurable.

The Elves were the oldest creation. The quotes from Silmarillion prove that without a doubt. Yes, the Ents, like the Istari, like the Balrogs, like the dragons, like the Dark Lord, yadayadayada...pre-existed, but who cares? The anthropological scope of the beings of ME were within ME and it is within that context that we must think to answer that question.

And Ariana, you need to read the rest of the Silmarillion. It will answer many of your questions and clear up any misconceptions you may have...

[Walter]

Grond, as for my part I won't go into the speculation about "age of spirits".

IMO Spirits (spiritual beings) were the offspring of Ilúvatar's mind (and IIRC Tolkien avoided the term creation in this context), the rest (Eä, Arda, Children of Iluvatar, Dwarves, plants, beasts, etc.) was creation (either as a joint effort or single acts of creation). Hence I personally would not consider the Elves "spirits", but creatures....

[Walter]

But Thorin, wouldn't this logic make Gandalf return to Aman at the age of 1? Or did he just get his "old" body "recycled" after the incident with the Balrog?

Or generally how do you date the Istari or Sauron then? They had assumed (or been given) human bodies, but their age can hardly be dependent of this body, can it?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
But Thorin, wouldn't this logic make Gandalf return to Aman at the age of 1? Or did he just get his "old" body "recycled" after the incident with the Balrog?

Or generally how do you date the Istari or Sauron then? They had assumed (or been given) human bodies, but their age can hardly be dependent of this body, can it? Following your own line of logic, one would have no choice to assume that Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast was the oldest living thing in Middle-earth as they are bound to this world. I think the whole issue here is how you define Middle-earth (either as Aman and Arda or only as Arda) and how you define "oldest living thing". I think Gandalf is specifically excluding himself and the others of the Ainur order. I also think that he is comparing Treebeard to the other two ancient individuals of Middle-earth.... Cirdan and Galadriel. Or... he could have just made a mistake. Gandalf made a few of those.

As to your argument of Gandalf returning to Age 1 upon his return to Aman... The Valar and Maia (save Melian) had the ability when Aman to assume and disassume(?) physical form. The Silmarillion makes it clear that the Valar spend most of their time in their astral forms and not in their physical forms. Gosh... this is a confusing thread. :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

From Grond:
How old were the "spirits" that went into the Elves? Surely Eru didn't just "create" those spirits. Surely they too already existed somewhere.
I have never accepted the idea of a God creating a spirit or/and a body! Sorry if by saying this I annoy those who truly believe in this idea!

In my understanding, there is energy in this Universe that by the power of some natural laws can take forms. This is how I understand everything related to the "mind" / "spirit" - issue.

I used to have a game - I asked myself "where am I?" And beginning from the place I was at a particular moment (f.ex. a room) then I went further on and up and when it used to come to : "I'm in the Universe" - there was a question "Where is this Universe? At this point my head usually started aching and I decided that noone can answer such a question.
Becuase it is genetically given to the human mind that there is an order in which every item (no matter how small or big it is) is situated IN another one..and so on....
The point, I have told you about this, is that we have the same problem with the "spirit" - issue - where does a spirit come from? If there is someone who has created a spirit, then logically this mighty one has spirit himself....So where did HIS/HER spirit come from?.. And so on, and so on... :confused:

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
Gosh... this is a confusing thread. :confused:

Sorry, Grond, let me put it simple:

Q: Ents or Elves, who is older?
A: The Ents! (as stated and explained previously)

That simple enough? ;)

-----------
In case you prefer a less simplified reply:

Following your own line of logic, one would have no choice to assume that Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast was the oldest living thing in Middle-earthXacully...
I think Gandalf is specifically excluding himself and the others of the Ainur order. I also think that he is comparing Treebeard to the other two ancient individuals of Middle-earth.... Cirdan and Galadriel. Or... he could have just made a mistake. Gandalf made a few of those.In none of my posts I was referring to Gandalf's statement, I was merely trying to put in my two cents upon the question of this thread, based on two quotes from the Sil. And according to my interpretation the "summoned spirits from afar" represent spiritual beings "made" by Ilúvatar, whereas the the Quendy represent created beings, hence the former necessarily being the older ones.
As to your argument of Gandalf returning to Age 1 upon his return to Aman... The Valar and Maia (save Melian) had the ability when Aman to assume and disassume(?) physical form. The Silmarillion makes it clear that the Valar spend most of their time in their astral forms and not in their physical forms. Why, yes of course, hence I feel that disregarding this fact for spriritual beings (Istari and Ents alike) and simply stating that what counts is the age of their physical shape in Middle-earth, in order to answer the question of this thread appears as ignoring part of the facts to me...

----
Disclaimer: All answers represent my personal interpretation of statements given by JRR Tolkien, without any further warranties...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
Sorry, Grond, let me put it simple:

Q: Ents or Elves, who is older?
A: The Ents! (as stated and explained previously)

That simple enough? ;)

-----------
In case you prefer a less simplified reply:

Xacully...
In none of my posts I was referring to Gandalf's statement, I was merely trying to put in my two cents upon the question of this thread, based on two quotes from the Sil. And according to my interpretation the "summoned spirits from afar" represent spiritual beings "made" by Ilúvatar, whereas the the Quendy represent created beings, hence the former necessarily being the older ones.
Why, yes of course, hence I feel that disregarding this fact for spriritual beings (Istari and Ents alike) and simply stating that what counts is the age of their physical shape in Middle-earth, in order to answer the question of this thread appears as ignoring part of the facts to me...

----
Disclaimer: All answers represent my personal interpretation of statements given by JRR Tolkien, without any further warranties... We have a difference of opinion on the term "spiritual" beings. It is apparent (to me) that the Elves are spiritually tied to Middle-earth in exactly the same manner as are the Valar and Maiar. from the Silmarillion, Valaquenta
But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.And we also have this from the same source which attributes the same "spritual equation" for the Elves although of lesser strength and stature than that of the Valar and Maiar.from The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days
The dealings of the Ainur have indeed been mostly with the Elves, for Ilúvatar made them more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature; whereas to Men he gave strange gifts.And invariably, we end up where we started discussing the "origins of the Elvish fea". from the Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings
Elves were destined to be 'immortal', that is not to die within the unknown limits decreed by the One, which at the most could be until the end of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm. Their death - by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed - and the dis-embodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.This sounds like the Valar, Maiar and Elves are of close kin. Spiritually bound to this plane and unable to be released. It also leads me to believe that the Elves were created in hroa (body) and not in fea (spirit). Their souls sprang forth from the mind of Eru. As did they all... so I would have to say that none are any older than anyone else as all souls were created instantaneously at the Beginning.

It's a draw.

[Walter]

I should like to add, that I have made my posts here within the context of Tolkien's view of creation as given in the Ainulindalë: There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. and not according to my own beliefs about the creation of the world...

and having said this, it just occurred to me that within the context of Tolkien's genealogy I can't seem to recall ANY " spirits that went into the Elves"...

Indeed, Grond, we seem to have different interpretations of "spiritual beings", or are mixing up "spirit" and "spirits" or "spiritual beings", for I restrict myself to what Tolkien actually claimed Eru created as "spiritual beings"....

[pohuist]

That's a great debate.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared .

Originally posted by Walter

IMO the quote presented by Lhunithiliel together with this statement a few sentences later in the Sil provide us with all the necessary information, for - again IMO - they seem to indicate that the Ents are the Shepherds of the Trees and that they are spirits summoned from afar which would make them a lot older than any of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Let me break up argument a little. My understanding is that Walter does not dispute that Ents in their ME form are younger than the Elves. The argument than goes to if "spirits from afar" can be considered "Ents".
But, before arguing that, let me ask you where exactly did you read that those particular spirits were older than the Elves. What makes you think that Eru did not create them later than his children? What makes you think that Eru created them at all?

And what kind of spirits are they exactly? No spirit seem to came out of the body of the dead Ent (killed at the storm of Isengard) compared to, for example, the description of the spirit coming out of the dead body of Saruman. I am not at all convinced that these are immortal spirits akin to the Ainur. Yvanna did not have a Flame of Creation, so she couldn't create Ents as her children, but maybe she had simply found another way to make the Shepherds of the Trees.

And going back to the question if spirits are considered "Ents", well, seems like this is a matter of opinion, and I think its not. Surely, Gandalf and Olorin are not the same, even though the same Maia spirit is inside both ot them. But, irrespective of that, spirit is not "a living thing". That was discussed before, and, I believe, was settled (probably on another thread). Either way, you lose, though.

If it was, Treebard could not haver been the oldest as there are Ainur on ME. And if it wasn't, then only his ME form counts, which, we settled here is younger than the Elves.

So, Grond, with all due respect, I don't believe its a draw.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by pohuist
But, irrespective of that, spirit is not "a living thing". That was discussed before, and, I believe, was settled (probably on another thread). Either way, you lose, though.

If it was, Treebard could not haver been the oldest as there are Ainur on ME. And if it wasn't, then only his ME form counts, which, we settled here is younger than the Elves.

Which is exactly what I was saying. I believe that sums up the argument.

Grond,

I think that Tolkien was using the Christian idea of man being made a little lower than the angels. Though we are like them in form, we are not them, nor do we share all the same characteristics. I doubt they (elves) have the same 'fea' as the Ainur. They were created immortal, they were not immortal spirits given bodies to inhabit like the Valar and Maia did.

[Walter]

Just in case, Grond, that you are interested in winning this argument rather than throwing further light on the issue (and I somehow can't help getting this impression), let me help you some:

There are at least two major weak spots in my line of argumentation, one is, that I simply "presumed" the summoned spirits from afar are actually "spiritual beings" as created first in the Ainulindalë and hence would have existed far earlier than the Elves, and the other one is that one could argue that everything in Tolkien's "universe" - spirit or matter - has its ultimate origin in Eru and hence everything is equally old....
----
With this said I shall humbly bow out of this thread...

[pohuist]

That seems to be the last straw as Lhunothiliel said before :)
The first weak spot is the one I highlighted in my previous post, and the second (actually making it a draw -- clever) does not hold water. While everything has it origins in Eru, it does not make everything equally old, otherwise the concept of age simply would not make any sence.

To further my argument about spirits, I do not recall Ainur having any children between themself (Meliah had a child with an elf). However, Ents had Entings before Entwives were lost.

[Maeglin]

Wow I'm so proud of myself for starting such a popular thread!:D
Its really quite amusing to read everyone's arguments, especially since I don't think any of us will reach a final agreement. But keep arguing everyone, I don't really want to get involved cause it takes forever to read some of the things you people write.:eek:

[Grond]

Originally posted by Thorin
They were created immortal, they were not immortal spirits given bodies to inhabit like the Valar and Maia did. How are we so certain as to their "linkage" with the Ainur? Walter will hate this because I am requoting but...from The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days
for Ilúvatar made them more like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature...We can't be sure that they are not 'close kin' to the Ainur and that their spirit will survive the end of the world... anymore than we can be sure that the Ainur themselves won't be consumed when the world of Middle-earth finally ends.

Is this wierd? We are talking in deep philosophical terms concerning a world that doesn't even exist... arguing about it's ethics, religion and destiny. LOL! I've got to get life.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
Just in case, Grond, that you are interested in winning this argument rather than throwing further light on the issue (and I somehow can't help getting this impression), let me help you some:

There are at least two major weak spots in my line of argumentation, one is, that I simply "presumed" the summoned spirits from afar are actually "spiritual beings" as created first in the Ainulindalë and hence would have existed far earlier than the Elves, and the other one is that one could argue that everything in Tolkien's "universe" - spirit or matter - has its ultimate origin in Eru and hence everything is equally old....
----
With this said I shall humbly bow out of this thread... LOL! I'm not trying to throw light on the issue Walter... I am trying to throw fire. I simply enjoy the different insights and viewpoints we can throw at such a complicated theological discussion. Your contribution is invaluable. Please continue to participate. ;)

[Walter]

pohuist, I wrote my post while you already sent yours, I haven't read yours before I posted mine.

Originally posted by pohuist
Let me break up argument a little. My understanding is that Walter does not dispute that Ents in their ME form are younger than the Elves. In my understanding Tolkien does not distinguish between a ME-form and a "non ME-form" of a spiritual being, hence I see no need to be more catholic than the pope. I see a being as a being and as such it has a specific "age" and not the ME-form has a particular age and the "spiritual form" anotherone.

The argument than goes to if "spirits from afar" can be considered "Ents"No, it's the other way round the argument goes if the "summoned spirits from afar" which appear to be represented by the "Shepherds of the trees" can be considered the same spirits that have been "made" first by Ilúvatar (see my quote from the Ainulindale above): Ainur. If that is the case (which I am presuming, even though this has nowhere been specifically stated neither whether this is true for all of them) the Ents (as spiritual beings) would be clearly older than the Elves.

What makes you think that Eru did not create them later than his children? What makes you think that Eru created them at all?The very first sentence in the Ainulindalë:
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made..

I am not at all convinced that these are immortal spirits akin to the Ainur. You don't have to be, as I mentioned above this is nowhere clearly stated but subject to personal interpretation and hence the "weak spot" in my theory.

Yvanna did not have a Flame of Creation, so she couldn't create Ents as her children, but maybe she had simply found another way to make the Shepherds of the Trees.Now this is speculation on your part, but the "summoned spirits from afar" can hardly be considered to have been created by Yavanna...

And going back to the question if spirits are considered "Ents", well, seems like this is a matter of opinion, and I think its not.Yes, it is a matter of opinion, though I still think the question should be put the other way round again: If Ents can be considered spirits.

But, irrespective of that, spirit is not "a living thing". That was discussed before, and, I believe, was settled (probably on another thread)Now, was it? I must have missed the part where Tolkien declared that. And besides, is "living" or "thing" the operative word in this statement?

Either way, you lose, though.If you say so, then that must mean you have just won, my congratulations... ;)

Originally posted by pohuist
That seems to be the last straw as Lhunothiliel said before :)
The first weak spot is the one I highlighted in my previous post, and the second (actually making it a draw -- clever) does not hold water. While everything has it origins in Eru, it does not make everything equally old, otherwise the concept of age simply would not make any sence.No, it wouldn't make it a draw for I clearly stated that IMO the Ents are older than the Elves...

So, in any case you win on all fronts... ;)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Walter
In my understanding Tolkien does not distinguish between a ME-form and a "non ME-form" of a spiritual being, hence I see no need to be more catholic than the pope. I see a being as a being and as such it has a specific "age" and not the ME-form has a particular age and the "spiritual form" anotherone.

lol..I thought you said you were bowing out of this conversation! ;)
If Tolkien never made this distinction, then he contradicts himself.. Gandalf's quote that Treebeard is "the oldest living creature in ME" would be false. Sauron, the Istari, and the Balrog were all as old, if not older, then Treebeard when you take into consideration the pre-existing condition.

I believe that these quotes prove that the age of ME was what Tolkien measured life by, and not pre-existing spirits, regardless of what substance. Hence, the Elves were the oldest race that existed on ME...

Case closed....ya right... :D

[Walter]

Originally posted by Thorin
lol..I thought you said you were bowing out of this conversation! ;)
LOL, yes I intended to do so, but this was before I had seen pohuist's post where he "proved me wrong"...

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Walter
I see a being as a being and as such it has a specific "age" and not the ME-form has a particular age and the "spiritual form" anotherone.

At least we both agree that there is a concept of age and its meaningful.

No, it's the other way round the argument goes if the "summoned spirits from afar" which appear to be represented by the "Shepherds of the trees can be considered the same spirits that have been "made" first by Ilúvatar (see my quote from the Ainulindale above): Ainur. If that is the case (which I am presuming, even though this has nowhere been specifically stated neither whether this is true for all of them) the Ents (as spiritual beings) would be clearly older than the Elves.

I believe I showed a few examples that make your presumption (Ents being Ainur) highly unlikely, as they don't dispaly some characteristics of Ainur, and do dispaly some characteristics that Ainur don't; if my arguments do not persuade you, than we have to leave it at that because there is no direct quote disproving it.

Now this is speculation on your part, but the "summoned spirits from afar" can hardly be considered to have been created by Yavanna...

It is a speculation, however, I never said "created," au contrair, I said Yavanna could not create. The argument went that if they are not Ainur (as I think I showed) but still some spirits they must've been created bu Eru at some later point, probably, at Yavanna's request.

Now, was it? I must have missed the part where Tolkien declared that. And besides, is "living" or "thing" the operative word in this statement?

Tolkien never declared that, but there are certain things that can be reasonably inferred, quotes only are not much useful its interpretation of the quotes we discuss here. Whether or not a spirit can be considered a "living thing" (I believe that 'operative word' is "living thing" (even though its two words)) was discussed ad nauseum at the thread "whether Treebeard is older than Tom Bombadil" (I don't remember the exact name, maybe one of the mods will provide a link), and the consesus was its not.

But whether you agree with it or not, makes no difference, because if you consider Ents to be spirits, then Tolkien contradicts himself, as there are Maiar present in ME, and if they are not spirits, then the Elves must be older. I do not believe Tolkien contradicts himself.


No, it wouldn't make it a draw for I clearly stated that IMO the Ents are older than the Elves...

You certainly have a right to your opinion, and until you concede that it is erroneous, I haven't won, whatever I may claim. But that wasn't my purpose, I only wanted to shed some light on the subject and I have satisfied myself that I did.

[Grond]

I have found something that appears quite interesting. from The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna
But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'

Then Yavanna was glad, and she stood up, reaching her arms towards the heavens, and she said: 'High shall climb the trees of Kementári, that the Eagles of the King may house therein!'Darn!! It appears that Manwe tells Yavanna of the Ents and immediately speaks of the coming of the Eagles as well. We all know without doubt that the Eagles are Maiar, and Manwe seems to speak of them in the same breath. Maybe Ents do house the fea of Maiar. Now I'm really confused.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

It is either that YOU make it too complicated, or that I can't see the complexity!

IMO, it is more than clear :
Yavanna made the trees > Yavanna felt sorry and frightened for the FUTURE of her creations being endangered by other creatures WHEN these other beings become alive and active (meaning the Firstborn as well) > Yavanna summoned "spirits from afar" (spirits "created" by Eru and existing with no particular form - my theory of the energy! :) ) and introduced these spirits into forms (of course, one wouldn't expect her to chose for the "shephards of the trees" a form OTHER than a tree-like form!)

So, trees are trees and Ents are spirits in tree-like forms.

In this sense, I think it most acceptable that Ents are Maiar, and being such they have to be much older than Elves.

[Walter]

LOL, pohuist, how did you call it? "The last straw"? ;)

But, seriously, I don't think that your points are more or less valid than mine are, it just depends on which personal "presumptions" one makes and which parts of information - or lack thereof - one disregards to come to ones personal opinion about whether the Elves or the Ents are older. But I highly doubt, that Tolkien gave us enough "un-misinterpretable" facts to finally decide about this issue. But you - and partly Grond - have brought up a point that I found highly interesting:

Did Ilúvatar's act of creation end after the world, Eä, was created?

I have opened a new thread for this topic here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6205), the input of you all would be welcome.

[Cian]

(Probably in 1951) Tolkien described: " ... Ents, oldest of living rational creatures"

But I like how he opens on the subject in 1963:

"No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music.' But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees." JRRT

I don't think anyone posted this yet, and I don't know if this might help much.

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Walter
LOL, pohuist, how did you call it? "The last straw"? ;)


LOL, Actually Lhunithiliel called it so.
I will participate in your thread, just give me a couple of days to review and think.

Lhunithiliel, you rationalize very well, except for one thing:

If you consider Ents to be spirits, then Tolkien contradicts himself, as there are Maiar present in ME, and if they are not spirits, then the Elves must be older. I do not believe Tolkien contradicts himself.

Cian, this is very interesting, I don't think it says much about the age, but it says the [at least some] trees have souls, which I think is true indeed, take Old Man Willow, for example.

[Lhunithiliel]

Pohuist:
If you consider Ents to be spirits, then Tolkien contradicts himself, as there are Maiar present in ME, and if they are not spirits, then the Elves must be older. I do not believe Tolkien contradicts himself.
Well, sorry, but why can't I understand what exactly you wanted to say?! :confused:
I do consider Ents to be some kind of spirits - maybe not exactly Maiar, maybe some spirits like those Ulmo summoned and sent to the inland waters in ME... Where is the contradiction?

And Walter, I see you like what I said about the "straw"
The whole saying goes: "...like a drawning man holding onto a straw". We say this when someone has no any chance left to prove he is right about smth. and hold onto arguments that seem unclear, irrational and "shaky" in logic.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
And Walter, I see you like what I said about the "straw"
The whole saying goes: "...like a drawning man holding onto a straw". We say this when someone has no any chance left to prove he is right about smth. and hold onto arguments that seem unclear, irrational and "shaky" in logic. Yes, I like it - btw. it's pretty much the same in German: "Sich an den letzten Strohalm klammern..." (to cling to the last straw (someone drowning clings to the last straw...))

[pohuist]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Pohuist:

Well, sorry, but why can't I understand what exactly you wanted to say?! :confused:
I do consider Ents to be some kind of spirits - maybe not exactly Maiar, maybe some spirits like those Ulmo summoned and sent to the inland waters in ME... Where is the contradiction?

The contradiction is that if you consider spirit to be a "living creature", then Treebeard cannot be the oldest b/c Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and maybe other Maiar who are in ME at the time are living creatures as well, and they are at least as old if not older than Treebeard.

[Theoden]

elves

[Walter]

Gotta love those short, precise answers...

[Aragorn12345]

U r right because the elves cured the ents of dumbness.:D

[Lhunithiliel]

There we go again from where we started!

[Walter]

That's the way it goes...

[Wood Bloom]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Ents. I was taking a quiz and got that question wrong. I don't know where any references to this are, so I'm sorry I can't help anymore than just saying, "Ents".
hi i would say elves r older because if u go the the book
THE TWO TOWERS tho the chapter about treebeard the lists start out with elves

[Gil-Galad]

Hmmm,Lhu.the idea about the Ents and their spiritual origin is not so bad ,but I doubt they were spirits.I think Pohuist is right.And simething more,they're created because Yavanna wanted so.I can't remember anywhere in the Sil to be written that Valar were able to create spirits.

btw Lhu kak vurvqt ne6tata v bg?az sled 3 dni si idvam,za moe sujalenie:(

[gate7ole]

Elves
They are the First born.

[Nenya Evenstar]

hi i would say elves r older because if u go the the book THE TWO TOWERS tho the chapter about treebeard the lists start out with elves

Yes, the list does start out with elves, but that doesn't prove anything to me anymore. :( Have you read this entire thread? I have, and now I am truly confused. I would recommend that you read it too - it's very interesting and educational!

[Lhunithiliel]

Hey, I NEVER said Yavanna MADE those spirits! She only SUMMONED SPIRITS FROM AFAR and they inhabited some tree-like forms to become the shephards of the trees, to protect Yavanna's creations and "to be feared" by those who would damage and hurt these creations.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Hey, I NEVER said Yavanna MADE those spirits! She only SUMMONED SPIRITS FROM AFAR and they inhabited some tree-like forms to become the shephards of the trees, to protect Yavanna's creations and "to be feared" by those who would damage and hurt these creations. Actually, it would have been Eru who was doing any summoning.

[Ancalagon]

I beg to differ dear Grond, Eru has imparted this calling upon Yvanna, allowing her the choice of calling/summoning these spirits from afar. The Spirits themselves in whatever shape or form obviously originate from the mind of Eru, but she calls them.When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and IT will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.
What would be the point in being a Valar if you were just Eru's stooge?

[pohuist]

I would agree with Ancalagon on this one. However,
if spirits are considered "living things", then Tolkien contradicts himself because Treebeard cannot be "the oldest". Since that's highly unlikely, I would humbly suggest they are not. And if they are not "living things", then Elves are older as, among many other things, is evidenced by Anc's quote immediately preceding that post "when children awoke, then ..."

Highly unlikely but supposing, Tolkien left this gap. The Children were created right after Ainur, during their music, they just slept for a while. As far as spirits summoned by Yavanna, did she actually had a power to "summon" Maiar. Somehow, I don't think so. (That would be the ones who stayed with Eru -- spirits from afar). Its doesn't say (I think) anywhere that Eru's creation stopped after Ainur and the Children. He could create other spirits after that. In that case, those are probably created at Yavanna's request and summoned by her. It is said that Yavanna thought about spirits to protect kelvar and olvar after Aule got permission to let the dwarves be. That makes the Elves older still.

That should be the end of this discussion.

I do have a question for the learned ones though.

.
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

Now, Sauron was a Maia. How is it possible that something is older.

[uzuki]

In The Two Towers it says that the elves made the ents so how could the ents be older then the elves maybe the ents are the oldest living but it may just be because the elves that are older than the ents all died in battle or something like that

[pohuist]

Originally posted by uzuki
In The Two Towers it says that the elves made the ents so how could the ents be older then the elves maybe the ents are the oldest living but it may just be because the elves that are older than the ents all died in battle or something like that

I suggest you read it again. Elves could not possibly make neither Ents, nor any other living thing.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by uzuki
In The Two Towers it says that the elves made the ents so how could the ents be older then the elves maybe the ents are the oldest living but it may just be because the elves that are older than the ents all died in battle or something like that
pohuist is right.You should read also The Sil or if you can't just read the posts which are posted before you.
And something more,I think it's possible a maia to be older than other maia.Probably that maia was in Eru's thoughts before the other one.I don't know how this is possible but I belive that not all maia start "living" in one and the same moment.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by uzuki
In The Two Towers it says that the elves made the ents so how could the ents be older then the elves maybe the ents are the oldest living but it may just be because the elves that are older than the ents all died in battle or something like that
pohuist is right.You should read also The Sil or if you can't just read the posts which are posted before you.
And something more,I think it's possible a maia to be older than other maia.Probably that maia was in Eru's thoughts before the other one.I don't know how this is possible but I belive that not all maia start "living" in one and the same moment.

[Elenaelin]

It all really depends upon you're view of what consists of being "older". Although there does not seem to be one consesus (sp?) view about ents vs. elves, the elves were created in thought (aka idea of thier existence) by the Illuvatar before the ents, which were of Kementari's design ...that's how is see this issue...in my own bumbling way...

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Elenaelin
It all really depends upon you're view of what consists of being "older". Although there does not seem to be one consesus (sp?) view about ents vs. elves, the elves were created in thought (aka idea of thier existence) by the Illuvatar before the ents, which were of Kementari's design ...that's how is see this issue...in my own bumbling way...
I think they're difference between "created in thought"and just created.For example a russian first invented "in thought" how man can fly,how to make a plane.But who made the first fly?So,is he the man who made the first fly,in "thought"?
The same think is for elves and ents.