[JUDGING] Was Goldberry a Maia?

[Beorn]

This thread is judge (in this thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6043)) whether Grond or Ancalagon put forth evidence to convince one of the answer to the question, 'Is Goldberry a Maia?'

Ancalagon took the side that she is not a Maia.
Grond took the side that she is a Maia.

The judges are myself, Talierin, Gothmog, Maedhros, and a poll. Read the ENTIRE thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6043) before making any sort of decision.


Gothmog: Ancalagon
Me: Grond
Tal: Grond
Maedhros: No response yet

[Ancalagon]

Ok, fire away; I am all debated out!!

[Elfarmari]

I can't vote :confused: :( It tells me my session in invalid whenever I try. I would like to vote for Grond.

[Beorn]

I congratulate both of you for the amazing time and effort that both Grond and Ancalagon gave in this debate.

Here is a list of Grond's strong points that helped in my decision:

Although in the beginning, he had a weak argument, he strengthened later on.
The facts about the history of the procreation of Maiar strongly helped his case
He provided very real possibilities, such as Tom is a late-comer who chose to serve no Valar. Goldberry could also be a late-comer who chose to serve Ulmo and was assigned the River Withywindle as her domain. and Take Boromir, for example. His boat is borne over the Falls of Cair Andros and yet the boat survives and he remains intact in the boat with all his regalia..
He stayed (generally) on one path, while Anc jumped around


While Ancalagon had strong points too, and just as many, I feel that Grond's points (mentioned above) are stronger and more supportive of the idea that Goldberry is a Maia, so I give my vote, to Grond.

[Grond]

Thanks to Ancalagon for participating in this endeavor and presenting a great case for his views. I would also personally like to thank Ancalagon for suggesting that I resign from the Ost-in-Edhil to help in shaping this new Guild of Tolkienology. Without his input and guidance, neither the debate nor the quild where it was hosted, would exist. If there is a guiding light in shaping this forum, it is Ancalagon. Thanks Anc... you are a dear friend even though I've never met you face to face.

Secondly, I think both of us put our whole hearts into the debate and argued the topic as well as either of us were capable. Anc, as you said in your last post, it is highly likely that other forum members may see areas we missed and I hope this thread will be thoroughly discussed before all is said and done.

Finally, I voted in the poll. I voted it a draw. I think both of us were successful in our arguments and counter-arguments, but I think Goldberry is, like Tom, destined to remain a mystery (enigma) of Middle-earth. She easily fits the bill as a Maia... she just as easily fits the bill as an Earth Spirit... a piece of Tolkien's soul placed into the world of Middle-earth. Someone who is in the story and yet is outside the rules of the story. But... we'll never know for sure. We are simply left to speculate. Good job of speculation Anc. I enjoyed it.

[Gothmog]

This has been a very well fought debate and there is little to separate the two sides. Both have given very good well thought out arguments. The problem of each has been to prove their view.

Grond has come up with many quotes that show there is a possibility that Goldberry was a Maia. Yet I find that despite all the words Tolkien wrote in 'The Fellowship of the Ring' about Tom and Goldberry there is no quote showing this possibility even once being mentioned by the author in any form. Others who had less said about them at least were hinted at as being Maia. So I find that I have not been convinced by Grond's arguments that Tolkien's structured world had no place for 'Enigmas' as enigmas are things that do not fit. As for her to have been the offspring of two Maia, while Tolkien may have toyed with such an idea he also clearly discarded it. So again I am unconvinced.

Anc. on the other hand argued for a link with the land of Middle-earth that was far closer than we see with the 'known' Maia. I feel that he was able to show that there was such a link and that Goldberry came from the land. Or rather the water, and that she was not one of the Ainur come late but was younger than Arda. This last was with his quote of how Tom found her.

So I give my vote to Ancalagon. By the very narrowest of margins.

I congratulate both for a truly wonderful debate.

[Talierin]

Both debators were excellent, but my vote is for Grond. I think he did a really fine job of arguing for a side he didn't agree with, something that is hard to do.

[Elu Thingol]

I must vote for a draw

Both debaters did an excellent job at showing the possibilities of what Goldberry and Tom are or represent.

Even though Anc's quotes do show that Tolkien regarded Tom as an enigma Grond's counter was excellent by saying that Tolkien can't make a world with rules and then have an exception. However, I doubt Tolkien ever really regarded Tom and Goldberry as a part of the rules.

I must say that Anc probably was able to show that Tom and Goldberry were not Maia. However, Grond displayed such convincing arguments in some areas (and in such a hard position) that I deem that both debaters skills are equal. However, Grond's arguments did not convince me and Anc's arguments were never very stable.

[Lhunithiliel]

I would only like to congratulate both sides in this debate, for they have proven to be true Tolkienologists! Strong evidences, great knowledge of the works, amazing "flight" of the though,understanding and interpretation... Simply wonderful!! Bravo, boys!

However, I was easier convinced by Grond as my opinion is too that Goldberry and Tom are Maiar and while reading Ancalagon's posts I tried to think of arguments in defence of my OWN opinion rather than in Grond's. Grond's posts just helped me greatly in this. I could have NEVER been able to defend my position so well.... I guess.

Finally, however, I'd like to point out that the issue perhaps should be looked at from two different corners:
> Tolkien's - he created a world, he determined the rules this world should exist upon and by, so in this aspect, Goldberry and Tom are Maiar;
> Reader's - every character in Tolkien's works is understood and perceived by different people having different minds, so every reader understands the respective character based on his/her personal understanding of the world we know and we live in. Therefore, me, as a reader, find Tom an Goldberry as clear symbols of Nature.

BUT, one thing is the author and quite another thing is the reader!

[pohuist]

I have to admit that either side did not convince me (and I actually hold a different view on Goldberry than those 2 debated), but that did not influence my vote. As Anc put correctly, neither view is right or wrong, we will never know for sure. I, therefore, looked for actual debating skills, the way arguments were presented, etc. I congratulate both sides with a very well thought arguments, I can only imagine how much time they actually spend on this. My vote went to Grong by an extremely narrow margin.

[Maedhros]

Sorry for voting this late, but I have been really busy lately.
First, I would like to congratulate Grond and Ancalagon for this great debate.
I have to say that both sides had great arguments. The things that I use to judge a debate are the following:
1. The persuasiveness of the debaters.
2. Their respective positions.
3. Their ability to stay in the topic.

I personally think that Grond had the most difficult task because in the works Goldberry is not mentioned as a maiar, and proving that she is is impossible.
To me Ancalagon's arguments seemed more valid to me, but since Grond position was "relatively weaker", I will vote for a draw.

[Grond]

I want to thank the judges for participating. I have again reread the thread and think that my position of the debate being a draw is the correct one. Anc countered my arguments tit for tat and I feel I did the same to him.

I deem this debate a draw!! :)

[Mithlond]

Work hours have been quite long for me this week, and as a result i have not been able to visit, let alone read alot of the posts here.

But i will quickly say now that i would have to give my vote to Grond.
Now although i do not agree Goldberry was a Maia, i feel Grond produced a strong argument, very well thought out and written.

Ancalagon also did a wonderful job. But the fact that Grond did so well when going against his own beliefs, producing a very convincing argument, gets my vote.