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Nenya Evenstar
09-04-2002, 04:35 PM
Do you like the scene right before Caradhras where Boromir is teaching Merry and Pippin to sword fight? Let me know what your thoughts are!

Sarah
09-04-2002, 05:19 PM
yeah it cool. very entertaining. especially when they tackle boromir. "Get 'em for the Shire!"

In Flames
09-04-2002, 05:45 PM
Yah i liked it.
I think It showed that even Boromir could be a little playful and not just negative and 100% serious.

Darth Saruman
09-04-2002, 06:08 PM
A perfect scene. It defines "fellowship".

Carantalath
09-04-2002, 06:15 PM
I liked that scene. Everyone seemed so much more relaxed and friendly there. I mean, Pippin and Merry were laughing and so were Boromir and Aragorn. Most of the time, Aragorn and Boromir are very serious but there they seemed much more...I don't know what a good word is to add there. But that's my opinion.

joxy
09-04-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Darth Saruman
A perfect scene. It defines "fellowship".
An irritating scene.
It defines childishness for the hobbits which they didn't have,
and it defines patronising for Boromir which he wasn't.

Darth Saruman
09-04-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Carantalath
Most of the time, Aragorn and Boromir are very serious but there they seemed much more...I don't know what a good word is to add there.Human?

Carantalath
09-04-2002, 06:25 PM
Thanks Darth Saruman. Human is a good word. It's been a very long day so far for me and my brain doesn't work. LOL.

joxy
09-04-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Darth Saruman
Human?
So you can't be both serious and human?
They weren't out for a picnic in the foothills of the mountains.

Carantalath
09-04-2002, 06:48 PM
Yes, you can be human and be serious. I'm human (last time I checked) and I can be very serious. But...I don't know. I'm going to think and then I'll come back to this later.

Nenya Evenstar
09-04-2002, 06:59 PM
I agree with all of you who love the scene. I always wondered when reading the books what the Fellowship did when they stopped for camp. Before I went to the theatre I was wondering and hoping that PJ would put something in there. I got my wish and was extremely happy.

Hehehe... I knew joxy would love this thread too. He was part of the reason why I posted it... :D

joxy
09-04-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I agree with all of you who love the scene. I always wondered when reading the books what the Fellowship did when they stopped for camp. Before I went to the theatre I was wondering and hoping that PJ would put something in there. I got my wish and was extremely happy.
Hehehe... I knew joxy would love this thread too. He was part of the reason why I posted it... :D
Yes, I knew it was coming, and was looking forward to it!
Most people who complain about the books say they are too long, too dense, too full of action, and words; and I can see their point. When you read, Nenya, you have time to wonder what more happened than is told; it must be great to have such an expansive mind- and I mean that.
Was the Rivendell-Caradhras trek the only thing you wondered about,
or did other ideas arise in other areas of silence?
For example, I wonder what Gollum did between his escape and Moria.

joxy
09-04-2002, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Confusticated

The hobbits did not have childishness?
hehehe by the way joxy, I knew you've just love this thread :D
A simple answer: No.
They had all the good sense-of-humour that all hobbits have.
The book gives plenty of examples to prove it,
and any of them would have been better than the invented scenes.
And yes, I'm throughly enjoying Nenya's initiative here.

joxy
09-04-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Carantalath
Yes, you can be human and be serious. I'm human (last time I checked) and I can be very serious. But...I don't know. I'm going to think and then I'll come back to this later.
A characteristic of being human is to have a good sense of humour,
and to use it even in serious situations, but in those situations some forms of humour are not appropriate, and the wrong sort of humour has found its way into some of the lighter scenes in FOTR's serious story.

Nenya Evenstar
09-04-2002, 08:03 PM
Hey thanks! That was a compliment! :)

That is a very good question. To tell you the truth, I cannot think of any other place (at the moment) at which I wondered what people did -before I got on this forum that is. Now I'm thinking about things all over which I wish I knew about, but about which no one really knows anything. But, before all that, I really think that that is just about the only part in which I hungered to know what happened behind the lines of the book. Of course there are parts of which I wish there was more of, but that's not really the same thing. Now, however, I'm wondering left and right. Ahh... the wonderful things that a Tolkien forum can do to your mind... :D

Nenya Evenstar
09-04-2002, 08:09 PM
Most people who complain about the books say they are too long, too dense, too full of action, and words; and I can see their point.

Forgot to say one thing: I do not think this! The books to me are the most exciting, touching, and inspiring books ever written. They are wonderful!

joxy
09-04-2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar


Forgot to say one thing: I do not think this! The books to me are the most exciting, touching, and inspiring books ever written. They are wonderful!

I was talking about the complainers, and I DO see their point- but I don't agree with it!!
Of course I knew you are no more a complainer about the books than I am. Your adjectives are as appropriate as any I could find- I rest my case!

Anamatar IV
09-04-2002, 08:23 PM
one of my favorite scenes. I just have one question about it...when merry hit boromirs leg was it with a sword or just his hands?

Nenya Evenstar
09-04-2002, 08:31 PM
joxy:

Good. We agree on something... :D

Anamatar:

I thought that Merry kicked him, but I could be wrong.

Anamatar IV
09-04-2002, 08:48 PM
i thought pip got cut, kicked him, and merry hit him.

Nenya Evenstar
09-04-2002, 08:52 PM
You're probably right - I can't remember. I just know that someone kicked somebody. :)

joxy
09-05-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
i thought pip got cut, kicked him, and merry hit him.
Kicking, hitting, yes, just as I've said- slapstick, low comedy,
nothing like the sort of humour that hobbits (of adult or almost adult age) have.

Anamatar IV
09-05-2002, 12:59 AM
i dont know why ur talking about slapstick humor. I didnt laugh during that scene.

Talimon
09-05-2002, 08:36 AM
Yeah, I've been wanting to mention this point as well. That scene wasn't really "funny", and wasn't trying to be. It was meant at best to put a smile on your face, but not because what was happening on the screen was humorous. It was just showing Merry and Pippin getting closer to Boromir, and the Fellowship in general bonding a little.

joxy
09-05-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
i dont know why ur talking about slapstick humor. I didnt laugh during that scene.
I'm calling it slapstick because cutting, hitting, and kicking are elements of slapstick; maybe the word is old-fashioned and its meaning is no longer understood.

Anamatar IV
09-05-2002, 09:29 PM
when you read the books try reading between the lines (another old saying). Merry and pippin have never and i mean never used a sword before. Would elrond expect them to go anbd fight orcs without knowing how to fight? They would have to learn sooner or later how to weild a sword. And who better to teach them than the one who tolkien himself said loved merry and pippin.

joxy
09-05-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Merry and pippin have never and i mean never used a sword before....They would have to learn sooner or later how to weild a sword....And who better to teach them than the one who tolkien himself said loved merry and pippin.

Tolkien said Boromir "loved" M&P?; if you say so, but I'd be interested to know where he says it. I don't see B, the grand Steward's heir, as the loving type to anyone.
M&P were actually leaving it a bit late to learn to use their swords, though of course in the film they got them a lot later than they did in the books (wasn't that on the barrow downs?). So they had to learn, but Tolkien didn't tell us when, and I don't see any reason why PJ should- there's plenty of other things we don't know that he doesn't add- why anything at all, and if he must add why add swords in particular? And in any case it's not so much the scene being added that doesn't fit; it's the way it's done, with childish dialogue and M&P piling on top of B as if he were a big brother to their little children.

Anamatar IV
09-06-2002, 12:47 AM
somewhere in the books. Not exactly loved but had a strong connection or favored or...heres a time where i would really love grond. Ill let you look that up for me. the hobbits learned to fight somewhere. Why not make it at the start of their journey. Their wasnt much dialogue anyways. Maybe: "Ow" "Sorry"
AAAAAAH" "OW" "laugh" thats maybe 30 seconds worth of dialogue.

Talimon
09-06-2002, 07:03 AM
I think what you are reffering to is in Minas Tirith when Pippin tells Denethor of how much he admired Boromir. I have a faint memory of him saying that both him and Merry were close to Boromir. Though I don't think there are any spots where Boromir himself shows that friendship back.

Anamatar IV
09-06-2002, 01:08 PM
there ya go. Right there. Merry and pippin were definitly closer than frodo and sam.

joxy
09-06-2002, 06:08 PM
Well, none of that proves a lot of love, affection or even special relationship, between M&P and Boromir. Maybe they were a bit closer than F&S but how does one measure such things?
The ""Ow,Sorry,AAAAAAH,OW,laugh" dialogue adds to the "pip got cut, kicked him, and merry hit him" action to confirm that that this was no serious sword practice, but more of what I've called slapstick comedy (to use an expression from the film world, though not of the present day!)
Boromir, the heir to the Steward of Gondor, is not the sort of guy you say and do things like that to, and if, in hobbit manner, you DO risk it, he's not going to be happy about you piling on top of him.
I also don't think he would have just ruffled the hair of Frodo, an adult hobbit, immediately after being close to seizing the Ring.

Anamatar IV
09-06-2002, 09:36 PM
frodo-though he was an adult hobbit was still a young child by standards of gondor. Boromir was by far the best sword fighter in the fellowship so he should have been the one to teach them.

joxy
09-06-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
frodo-though he was an adult hobbit was still a young child by standards of gondor. Boromir was by far the best sword fighter in the fellowship so he should have been the one to teach them.
He, and M&P, were not young children by any standards; the men recognised them as adults among their own kind, and respected them for it, as did other men when they met them later, in Gondor and elsewhere. The "good" races of Middle-Earth understood and respected each other.
Is there proof that B was "by far the best" over, say, Aragorn?:-)
Whoever did the teaching they would do it more seriously than in the scene we are given; swords are not playthings in Middle Earth.

ltas
09-07-2002, 09:06 PM
The scene fulfilled it's purpose of lightening the overall dark mood of the film.

I too really dislike the fact that P and M often behave and are being treated in film as misbehaving children. Though in this particular scene I wasn't bothered about it so much.


Boromir, the heir to the Steward of Gondor, is not the sort of guy you say and do things like that to, and if, in hobbit manner, you DO risk it, he's not going to be happy about you piling on top of him.

IMO the members of the fellowship were during the journey equal in social status and behaved accordingly. I doubt if on the road anyone was concerned about following the proper etiquette.

joxy
09-07-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by ltas
The scene fulfilled its purpose of lightening the overall dark mood of the film.
I too really dislike the fact that P and M often behave and are being treated in film as misbehaving children. Though in this particular scene I wasn't bothered about it so much.
IMO the members of the fellowship were during the journey equal in social status and behaved accordingly. I doubt if on the road anyone was concerned about following the proper etiquette.
We agree in disliking the childish behaviour that PJ forces on to M&P,
and I don't disagree too much that this was a minor instance of it.
The film isn't OVERALL all that dark is it? There's isn't a lot of darkness to lighten between the Ford and Moria, so why the need for lightening just there? The beautiful scenery was certainly light enough!
I feel that the highly self-conscious Boromir WOULD keep his dignity, wherever he was and whatever he was doing, and there are some clues in the book to confirm that.

ltas
09-08-2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by joxy

We agree in disliking the childish behaviour that PJ forces on to M&P,
and I don't disagree too much that this was a minor instance of it.
The film isn't OVERALL all that dark is it? There's isn't a lot of darkness to lighten between the Ford and Moria, so why the need for lightening just there? The beautiful scenery was certainly light enough!
I feel that the highly self-conscious Boromir WOULD keep his dignity, wherever he was and whatever he was doing, and there are some clues in the book to confirm that.

I felt that the dark mood of the film was mostly caused by the psychological state (the constant fear and despair) of the members of the fellowship, and it was very heartwarming to see them relaxed and light-hearted, if even only for a brief moment. IMO only the beatiful scenery does not have that effect.
I doubt if B. really lost his dignity in that scene? It was quite obvious that two hobbits would never be able to really defeat a warrior like B., and his surrendering was just a friendly gesture (it would be kind of unpolite to demonstrate one's superiority all the time, wouldn't it?).

Earendil
09-08-2002, 11:19 PM
i very much liked it... i mean it was a very happy part of the movie where Pippin,Merry,boromir,Aragorn,Frodo, and sam were all smiling and laughing it was soooo cute. well up until Legolas saw the Crebain but thats ok i muched like seeing that part also because you can see how lightfooted legolas is him standing on almost the side of that stone and not falling off!:D

joxy
09-08-2002, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by ltas
his surrendering was just a friendly gesture (it would be kind of unpolite to demonstrate one's superiority all the time, wouldn't it?).
Yes, I've said the scene wasn't all that bad, but:
I don't think the heir to the Steward of Gondor had quite the same idea of how to behave as we do: friendliness, unpoliteness, and superiority, were looked at rather differently in Gondor, and they wouldn't extend to two hobbits piling on top of him, whether he surrendered or not.
Things weren't looking all that dark between Rivendell and Moria were they? Not so dark that they needed lightening up?
Earendil thinks the scene was "cute"; so do I!
The problem is that cuteness is not a Tolkienien virtue.

Nenya Evenstar
09-09-2002, 12:07 AM
I do not think that "cute" is the right way to describe the scene. I see it as a scene in which the people are shown with human characteristics and not as heirs with a social status or as young hobbits. Everyone has a moment of fun every now and then in their lives, and I can think, if I had been there, of no other way that I would have acted. I would not, had I been in Boromir's position, just stood up and acted like the heir of the Steward of Gondor, but I would have done just what he did - played along with the hobbits.


The problem is that cuteness is not a Tolkienien virtue.

But you have to remember that this is not a Tolkien movie.

Diamond Took
09-09-2002, 06:37 AM
When Borimir is teaching the hobbits to swordfight, it is an essential part of his charactar, having a soft spot for halflings. Merry and Pippin especially.

I loved that scene!:D

DGoeij
09-09-2002, 03:17 PM
I thought it was ok. However ending somewhat childish and such, with M&P knocking him over like they are ten year olds.
It gives Boromir the human touch he could definately have, without disorting much of the original story in which no such event occured. IMHO, the idea to put it in was great.

joxy
09-09-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
I would not, had I been in Boromir's position, just stood up and acted like the heir of the Steward of Gondor....But you have to remember that this is not a Tolkien movie.
I wouldn't either, but then we're not heirs to the Stewardship of Gondor and very proud of it! You don't play games with the Prince of Wales; you don't pile on top of the Heir to Gondor!
The film is pretty close to being a film of a Tolkien book though!
I don't like the way films are described as e.g. a "P Jackson movie" (=film); the director has an important role, but it is only one of many roles, or ought to be.

joxy
09-09-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Diamond Took
When Borimir is teaching the hobbits to swordfight, it is an essential part of his charactar, having a soft spot for halflings.
Essential? It's not part of his character at all. His outlook on life doesn't include having a soft spot for ANYone.
In the film he does have it of course, and you like it- fine, but it has nothing to do with the book the film is supposed to be based on, and IS based on, most of the time.

joxy
09-09-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by DGoeij
....ending somewhat childish and such, with M&P knocking him over like they are ten year olds....the idea to put it in was great.
Bit of a contradiction here!
You get the point that it doesn't fit- childish- knocking over- ten-year-olds; but still think it's great to include it.

DGoeij
09-09-2002, 07:12 PM
You misunderstood me there. IMO, the idea to put in a scene where Boromir is teaching the young (they were Tweens:D) Hobbits how to use a sword, was a good one. I know there's no such scene in the original story, but this addition (apart from its ending) wasn't interfering with it either.
So, I liked the idea, but not the way it was finally put on the screen.

Darth Saruman
09-09-2002, 07:33 PM
Hmmm...I'm not sure if I really buy you people saying that grown men (and hobbits) can't engage in "childish" horse play. Believe me, it happens all the time, especially when guys start tossing the ol' football around and alcohol does not have to be involved. Guys start to get goofy and knock each other around a bit, all in fun of course (most of the time).

It happens. Normal, balanced, and mature grown up men don't always "act their age", in fact they often don't. The swordplay scene, which is basically the Middle-Earth equivalent of a few guys goofing off and playing some football, is a realistic sign of that.

DGoeij
09-09-2002, 08:01 PM
[english accent] Oh really? [/english accent]

Tell me about it. I'm a 22 year old boyscout, and mature behavior doesn't last long in an environment like that. But in an environment where you are teached how to use a sword, by a fellow you hardly know and tends to have a rather gloomy look on the world, diving into his groin when hurt by him strikes me as rather odd and out of place and character. Boromir was a good and honest man, but I don't picture him as the cuddling type.:)

Darth Saruman
09-09-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by DGoeij
[english accent] Oh really? [/english accent]

Tell me about it. I'm a 22 year old boyscout, and mature behavior doesn't last long in an environment like that. But in an environment where you are teached how to use a sword, by a fellow you hardly know and tends to have a rather gloomy look on the world, diving into his groin when hurt by him strikes me as rather odd and out of place and character. Boromir was a good and honest man, but I don't picture him as the cuddling type.:) Yes, but it isn't out of character for Merry and Pippen (from the movie's standpoint) to mockingly attack Aragorn. And even the most somber people, like Boromir, have their occasional moments of hilarity. It is unrealistic to assume that, just because Boromir isn't really the gregarious type, he doesn't like to joke around sometimes.

Jackson did succeed in showing the audience what Boromir is really all about and I believe that everyone understands that what they witness in that playful scene is the exception, not the rule.

DGoeij
09-09-2002, 09:09 PM
Well, it's my picture of Boromir, and it didn't fit in, neither did the movie-version of M&P, so it all adds up I guess. If I'm honest, deep down I just wish I was there, and had been able to guide mr. PJ in his alterations.:D

EDIT:spelling

joxy
09-09-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by DGoeij In an environment where you are taught how to use a sword, by a fellow you hardly know and tends to have a rather gloomy look on the world, diving into his groin when hurt by him strikes me as rather odd and out of place and character. Boromir was a good and honest man, but I don't picture him as the cuddling type.[/B]
I follow your feeling about it now as you explained oin the previous post. This one gets it exactly right- Boromir, neither in the book NOR in the film (that's important), just isn't the type who would get involved in that sort of behaviour, and he certainly isn't the type who goes in for loving, affection, or cuddling, of anyone. There's nothing wrong with him, it's just his nature, based on his reponsibilities and background.

joxy
09-10-2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Darth Saruman
I'm not sure if I really buy you people saying that grown men (and hobbits) can't engage in "childish" horse play. Believe me, it happens all the time, especially when guys start tossing the ol' football around and alcohol does not have to be involved. Guys start to get goofy and knock each other around a bit, all in fun of course (most of the time). It happens. Normal, balanced, and mature grown up men don't always "act their age", in fact they often don't.The swordplay scene, which is basically the Middle-Earth equivalent of a few guys goofing off and playing some football, is a realistic sign of that.
That's all correct, about SOME people. But these aren't any old people, goofing off, playing football. Boromir is the heir to the Steward of Gondor, and doesn't he know it! He's not the type to "goof"- some of us aren't!

Nenya Evenstar
09-10-2002, 01:04 AM
joxy,

I agree that the film is almost a Tolkien movie. However, it is not one, and I do not think that anyone will ever think it is one. I do not think that anyone can meet the standard that Tolkien set. PJ (and the rest of the crew :)) did a wonderful job with what they were setting out to do, and I think that the outcome was marvelous. However, it was not, is not, and will never be Tolkien.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the hobbits were immature from the beginning of the movie until the very end. The swordfight scene fits perfectly with Merry and Pippin's characters throughout the entire movie.

I agree with those who have stated that Boromir would have shown some affection for the hobbits and that he would have been more than susceptible to a little bit of fun once in a while.

Oh, and BTW, who says I wouldn't want to play games with the Prince of Wales (well, er, the future Prince of Wales)?!?! :D :D

joxy
09-10-2002, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Everyone needs to keep in mind that the hobbits were immature from the beginning of the movie until the very end....I agree with those who have stated that Boromir would have shown some affection for the hobbits and that he would have been more than susceptible to a little bit of fun once in a while.
Yes, they were, right up to the moment they were being carried away by the orcs, and then, suddenly, they were allowed to look mature.
In the book they begin quite mature, by making the decision to go with Frodo without being asked, and only mature in the same way and to the same degree that almost all the other characters do. My question is why PJ decided to make the change? It works quite well, but the film would have worked at least as well without it.
Sorry, I don't think affection and fun are in B's vocabulary!
So you like William? I'm sure he'd tumble in the snow with you, very different from his father!

Talimon
09-10-2002, 09:49 PM
I don't know what you mean by "were allowed to look mature". The way you say it the writers all of a sudden decided, "Oh, wait, we forgot they were supposed to look mature. Since we are already at this part of the tale anyway lets just make them look mature from now on and hope no one notices". Give the writers a little more credit. The reason Merry and Pippin look "mature" (really the wrong word to describe thier look, but nonetheless) is because Boromir, who has been very close to them (shown through the sword practice scene) has just died attempting to save thier lives. As I've said before, in my opinion they change drastically once Gandalf falls. It's subtle, but pay attention to the way they act and look and you'll see what I mean. And what are you implying by saying that in the book they weren't asked to come along? In the movie they aren't asked to either. I'm not saying I particularly like the way they were introduced in the fields (one of my more serious beefs with the movie), but they surely weren't asked to come along or anything. This is even demonstrated further at the council, where they decide to come along regardless.

Nenya Evenstar
09-11-2002, 12:16 AM
I would like to echo Talimon's statement that M & P did make decisions on their own and very heroic ones at that. They do have a level of maturity. I can also see what Talimon says about them changing after Gandalf falls. That is very true. Yes, I have said before that I think that they are less mature than the books make them out to be, but they may not be as far off as everyone seems to think. Also, in the scene with Famer Maggot's crop, M & P were used as a tribute to Frodo's stealing of mushrooms in his childhood. I do not find this scene offensive for this reason - it could have easily been left out.


Sorry, I don't think affection and fun are in B's vocabulary!

I'll just have to differ from you there!

William... :D Let's not go there... Maybe you could drop him a line for me? :p No, I can't see Charles playing around, but that's because I don't know him, but I'm sure that once in a while he does!

Eliot
09-11-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by joxy

An irritating scene.
It defines childishness for the hobbits which they didn't have,
and it defines patronising for Boromir which he wasn't.


Well, what do you expect from young hobbits?
I mean, they're pretty much kids!

joxy
09-11-2002, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Talimon
I don't know what you mean by "were allowed to look mature". The way you say it the writers all of a sudden decided, "Oh, wait, we forgot they were supposed to look mature. Since we are already at this part of the tale anyway lets just make them look mature from now on and hope no one notices". Give the writers a little more credit.....And what are you implying by saying that in the book they weren't asked to come along?
Yes I do see it as if it was a sudden decision. One moment they are waving their arms at the orcs, looking not much less silly than in some of the earlier comedy scenes; a short time later the orcs are carrying them off, and they then look as mature as they should have all along- mature enough to realise the desperate nature of the whole journey, and now what it has led them into. So, sorry, I don't give the writers any credit there- sometimes in the film they're OK, sometimes they're bad; maybe it's different ones, some better than others. It's a pity they're needed at all- Tolkien has more than enough words for anyone to chose the right ones.
I'm implying that they were mature from the start, in the book. They found out that F was planning to leave the Shire without him realising it, and they decided then to join him, and told him so when he thought he was going to have to leave them behind at Crickhollow. The scene in the field is made up of course, and I agree with you about its quality, or lack of it.

Talimon
09-11-2002, 03:54 AM
mature enough to realise the desperate nature of the whole journey, and now what it has led them into.

In the book they didn't realize the whole desperate nature of the whole journey. Indeed, Tolkien showed Sam himself only realizing it deep into TTT and even RotK. The closer to Mordor he goes the more deperate he sees the whole quest. Frodo is perhaps the only one to realize it from the start, which is something PJ and Elijah Wood brought across very well. I don't think M & P realize the danger involved until very late in the book, and even then that doesn't single-handedly change thier complete nature. They are still light-hearted, as is shown in numerous places. But whenever the stakes get higher they all of a sudden realize thier naive choice of having come along to begin with..


I'm implying that they were mature from the start, in the book. They found out that F was planning to leave the Shire without him realising it, and they decided then to join him, and told him so when he thought he was going to have to leave them behind at Crickhollow.

There is a difference between maturity and loyalty, which I think you are getting confused. M & P were very loyal to Frodo, but that doesn't make them any more mature.

CloakedShadow
09-11-2002, 04:19 AM
I think it was a nice sort of way to relieve a little bit of tension the fellowship was clearly feeling. Boromir has a heart...*gasp* *cought* *choke* He's human after all, if you can believe it...not the tin man...

joxy
09-11-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by joxy
An irritating scene.
It defines childishness for the hobbits which they didn't have,
and it defines patronising for Boromir which he wasn't.

by Elliot
Well, what do you expect from young hobbits?
I mean, they're pretty much kids!

It's quite a while since I said that, and it's been answered a lot-
they certainly weren't kids by anyone's standards.

joxy
09-11-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Talimon
In the book they didn't realize the whole desperate nature of the whole journey....There is a difference between maturity and loyalty, M & P were very loyal to Frodo, but that doesn't make them any more mature.

No, no-one realises the extent of it at first, except perhaps Gandalf and Frodo, and each character takes a different length of time to grasp it as the journey goes on.
But leaving the Shire was a pretty massive decision to make, and I think it would have needed more than blind loyalty to Frodo for M&P to decide on it without even mentioning the fact to him. I don't see the guys who decided that way doing some of the childish things later in the film, but of course in the film they don't make the decision anyway, and the film has to be seen as separate from the book, so it doesn't really matter!

Earendil
09-12-2002, 01:11 AM
i agree but you have to remeber how silly pipena dn merry are and how they bring humor to the book as well as the movie. i think that also that pipen's playfulness opens up alot adn i guess thats one of those times. and also they are mischevious and i would expect them to do that but i didn't expect such behavior from Boromir but thenagain its nice to know hes not made of stone...

CloakedShadow
09-12-2002, 01:13 AM
That's true. Good ol' Pip & Merry seem to be the figurative "comic relief" from the seriousness of their mission, but we love them anyway! :D

Earendil
09-12-2002, 01:52 AM
yes i definately agree with that i love then alot i have a great fondess toward the halflings...see i even love that name that was given to them...but i think that if the movie was too serious then i dunno i wouldn't like it as much...and like how at the council of elrond after pip adn merry spring out from their hiding place and were anounced part of the fellowshipe and pip said "great...where are we going?" oh gosh i almost died laughing!!!:D

joxy
09-12-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Earendil
oh gosh i almost died laughing!!!:D
You make your point for me perfectly! You thought one of the more serious moments in the story was hilarious. That's how "well" the book has been translated into a film! Of course it doesn't have to be serious all the time, but Tolkien knew when to put in the humour, and when not to, and there's no reason why the film shouldn't have followed him.

ltas
09-12-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Earendil
/.../ and also they (M&P) are mischevious and i would expect them to do that but i didn't expect such behavior from Boromir but thenagain its nice to know hes not made of stone...

Just a thought: I suppose the reason why the Heir of Steward of Gondor would not be envolved in such a scene could be just the opposite to Earendil's opinion. Boromir could perhaps be noble and bare hobbits kicking him, but I doubt if M&P would ever feel comfortable enough to treat him in such an unrespectful manner.

Otherwise I support Darth Saruman's point of "guys fooling around".

joxy
09-12-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Earendil
you have to remeber how silly pipena dn merry are....and how they bring humor to the book....also they are mischevious....but i didn't expect such behavior from Boromir but thenagain its nice to know hes not made of stone...
One thing they never are in the books is "silly".
They do bring humour to the book, quite a different thing from silliness.
I don't recall any deliberate mischievousness from the books.
Good to see you agree that B would not behave that way, but there's been nothing in the book or film to suggest he is "made of stone".

joxy
09-12-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Confusticated
I agree with you that Merry and Pippin did not seem deliberately mischievous in the books. That is why I dislike that firework bit. I mean come on now! Pippin caused trouble of of ingornace not knowingly misbehaving!...
PS: having fun Joxy?...hehehe..... Glad to see you're still at it..:D
Yes! Disturbing the Watcher in the Water, and dropping a stone (transformed by PJ into a whole dead dwarf!) into the well, certainly trouble, but not deliberate, or mischievous.
And Yes again!- adults ARE allowed a sense of humour, so different from a quality of silly childishness....

Nenya Evenstar
09-13-2002, 06:08 AM
I don't think that you should qualify disturbing the Watcher in the Water as a sort of mischevious thing especially since Boromir did it in the book. There is a moment for you when the kingly Steward of Gondor steps out of his kingliness and shows that he has does have human emotions in him such as a temper.


"Do not let him run away!" said Boromir. "It seems that we shall need him still, if the wolves do not find us. How I hate this foul pool!" he stooped and picking up a large stone he cast it far into the water.

Diamond Took
09-13-2002, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by joxy

Essential? It's not part of his character at all. His outlook on life doesn't include having a soft spot for ANYone.
In the film he does have it of course, and you like it- fine, but it has nothing to do with the book the film is supposed to be based on, and IS based on, most of the time.

tell me more?

i always thought that borimir was yes, a big rough man and perhaps he does not have a soft spot for not just ANYone- but he DID for the halflings.

Nenya Evenstar
09-13-2002, 04:39 PM
Yup - I sure did! Thanks Confusticated! :) However, I'd still like to point out that that is a part in the book where Boromir does cast aside his kingliness.

joxy
09-13-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Confusticated
You misread joxy Nenya....
Thanks Conf!
And thanks also to Nenya for taking it well.

joxy
09-13-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
disturbing the Watcher in the Water....is a moment for you when the kingly Steward of Gondor steps out of his kingliness and shows that he has does have human emotions in him such as a temper.Sorry to split hairs again- B is only the Steward's elder son, and the stewardship is only a substitute for the kingdom, and doesn't carry royal rank, though of course B's father tends to be more like a king than a real king is!
I don't rank temper as an emotion, equivalent to the emotion of affection that it is claimed he has for M&P.

Nenya Evenstar
09-13-2002, 11:22 PM
Yes, I know that the Stewardship is not like a kingship - I was just using kingliness as it was the only word that came into my mind, and I thought it would get my point across. I didn't mean that B was a king or anything... :)


I don't rank temper as an emotion, equivalent to the emotion of affection that it is claimed he has for M&P.

I don't either. However, I also don't think temper is a very decent emotion for a ruler (or ruler to be) to have. I was just pointing out that Boromir does share in emotions that do not necessarily keep in line with his station.