Dagor Agraleb - Decision 2002 (Vote thread)

[Grond]

This thread is established to render a verdict on who won the first inter-guild debate between the Ost-in-Edhil and the Periaur.

Judges are as follows:
Ciryaher - votes for Ost-in-Edhil
Elfarmari - votes for Periar
DGoeij - votes for Draw
Chymaera - votes for Periaur

There is a poll that will also count as one vote. So there will be a total of five votes. Each of the judges should read the post in its entirety and then post a response as to their vote and what arguments compelled them to vote the way they did.

Thanks to all and good luck to all. :)

[Ciryaher]

I will say that when I first looked at the subject of the argument, I thought to myself, "Morgoth, all the way!" but as I read through the arguments, the most compelling evidence was given on behalf of Ost-in-Edhil for the argument that Sauron had the greatest influence on the Quendi.

Arguments such as Sauron wanting nothing more than to twist all things to his will (rather than simply dominate them as they are), commanding evil in Middle-Earth while Morgoth was Chained, having a huge influence on Morgoth's plans when he *was* in ME, and then the length of Sauron's presence in Middle-Earth I found to be quite influential.

I have cast my vote for Ost-in-Edhil's argument as being the victor.

[Ancalagon]

I would just like to say that I voted for a draw. It is for the judges to deliberate upon their own conclusions for reaching a decision. I will however simply add, that neither side were able to totally convince me as I have my own interpretation of the influence and reasons behind it.

However, each member well-research and debated their opinions. I must give special mention to Maedhros who managed to fight the battle virtually single-handed on behalf of the Periaur.

[DGoeij]

I have some catching up to do on various tasks, judging this debate is amongst them. Please be patient, my dad turned fifty and my brother ate my homework and the dog got sick....... :rolleyes:

[Tyaronumen]

Hmmm is there also a poll for all forum members? I'd like to cast my vote, but it doesn't seem like this poll is for everyone...?

[Grond]

Ty, this poll is for anyone and everyone who has read the debate thread. :)

[Chymaera]

First I would like to congratulate the Guild teams for their excellent work. Sorry to be so late but I just found out today that I was a judge. Probably for the best.;) Thanks for keeping everything so concice.:rolleyes:

Here is the question again:
Who had the greatest impact on the Quendi during the first three ages of Middle-earth - Sauron or Melkor????

Both sides defended themselves well.

Morgoth was attributed with vast power and he was accused of being a passive force.

Sauron was the great manipulator and second banana to a balrog.

The Silmarillion and Morgoth's Ring were both brought into question. Not to mention the authors. :eek:

The Peniaur claimed the Awakening of the elves at Cuiviènen till the War of Wrath as the First Age,
Ost-in-Edhil could have argued that the First Age began with the Rising of the Moon and the Landing of Fingolfin, This I felt was a missed point. (this maybe a technicality, but it is part of the question)

So on this most minor of points I award the argument to The Guild of The Peniaur, but I hope that you realize that this was no slam dunk and that this was a most difficult decision.

I not leave this thread and return to the scorn and ridicule of my fellow guild members, remember me at my court-martial, where I will claim that I was Shaing-haied by Grond who chickened out of the hard work at the end. ;) :D

[Chymaera]

for the record I looked at the poll after I posted my decision,

5,5,and one draw :D

It just goes to show how close this debate is and was;).

[Tyaronumen]

I wish I'd had a chance to vote before this poll was closed. I actually would have had to throw my vote with Maedhros, and the Periaur... *eep*!

[Elfarmari]

Both sides presented good arguements, but in the end I am more swayed by the Guild of Periaur's arguements for Melkor.

The arguement that Melkor was the original evil, who stained all of Arda with his presence most swayed me. It was because of Melkor that the Valar invited the Quendi to Aman, and it was Melkor who spread the lies and masterminded the deeds which led to Feanor's oath and exile. These deeds set up the Quendi for all their misery and defeat in ME.
Originally posted by Maedhros
So, we have that because of Melkor a great quantity of the Quendi were moved to Valinor and other were under his direct sphere of influence.
In Valinor, after Melkor was released he perverted the mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar in Valinor that produced the greatest of the races of Elves in Valinor to rebell against the Valar. . . .
After Melkor duped the Noldor to go to ME, he caused even greater dissention among the elves themselves that they couldn't unite against him and he destroyed their kindoms utterly. . . .
The best chance that the elves had of dealing with Melkor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the elves blew it because Melkor by his cunning, deceived Ulfgang into betraying Maedhros and destroyed their chances of winning the battle. In that battle the House of Fëanor was anihilated along with the Kingdom of Fingon. Then he took care of the only other kingdoms such as: Nargothrond, Menegroth (destroyed by his enemies dwarves and elves) and Gondolin. . . .
The elves that remained in ME after that were a mere mockery of the elf kingdoms that once stood in ME.

The influence of Sauron on the Quendi was also clearly shown. Sauron had influence as a lieutenant of Melkor, and later as the personification of Evil in the second and third ages. While the Rings of Power did ultimately cause some elves to leave ME, they did not ensnare the elves as Sauron intended.

[DGoeij]

As we can all see, both sides brought forth solid and well considered arguments. Secondly, both sides were able to force eachother to explain themselves at length.
This made an interesting debate. But it doesn't help me judging it. I'm still stuck with the fact that both sides did a very good job. So, off to the actual arguments and the subject of the debate.

This subject gave IMHO, the Periaur a head start and they sure did exploit that to the limit. The Ost-in-Edhil neverthelss did a good job in to focussing the attention on Sauron's own cruel devices and schemes.

I've taken this into serious consideration, and declared the Periaur the winner, by a nose-length.
(actually, I flipped a coin ;))

[Ancalagon]

I've taken this into serious consideration, and declared the Periaur the winner, by a nose-length.(actually, I flipped a coin )

Alternatively you could call a draw???

[DGoeij]

I assumed that, as a judge, I had to decide. If that is not the case, I prefer a draw. But I'm new to this buisness. :)

Seriously, if that is allowed, I'd prefer a draw. I didn't really toss a coin, but I was close enough.

[Grond]

Okay, the following votes have been rendered and tabulated.

The outcome is as follows:
1) Ciryaher - Ost-in-Edhil
2) Elfarmari - Periar
3) DGoeij - Draw
4) Chymaera - Periaur
5) Poll - Draw

I was set to vote in case there would have been a draw and yet I would have voted for a draw. I felt both sides made excellent arguments.

The outcome of this debate is deemed to be
The Periaur are the Victors!!

[Gothmog]

On behalf of Ost-in-Edhil, I would like to thank the judges for taking the time to read through the debate and giving their judgements. Also many thanks to The Guild of Periaur for their taking part in a most enjoyable and close-fought battle of wits. The dificulty of the judging is shown by the fact that there was only 1 point between the two sides.

My congratulations to the Team of Periaur for their victory. (And I look forward to the Re-match :) )

[Maedhros]

Well, I have to say that I was dead tired after finishing this debate. Debating against Gothmog is always very difficult since he is one of the best at it. I would like to thank his participation in it, and the other members of OiE. I would like to thank Grond for creating this.
I personally thought that the debate was a draw, but everyone has their opinions. I will only now that my side was won if I get the vote of Ancalagon.;)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Well, I have to say that I was dead tired after finishing this debate. Debating against Gothmog is always very difficult since he is one of the best at it. I would like to thank his participation in it, and the other members of OiE. I would like to thank Grond for creating this.
I personally thought that the debate was a draw, but everyone has their opinions. I will only now that my side was won if I get the vote of Ancalagon.;) And what does he know. I kicked his butt in our debate. :);):p

[Ancalagon]

And what does he know. I kicked his butt in our debate

Ohh poor me, I had to argue against a side I don't even agree with, pity me, vote for me as I had the most difficult side of the debate to argue.......:(

Pah!

That quote will come back to haunt you my fearsome, foe-hammer friend:D

[Grond]

It isn't how you play the game that counts... 'tis whether you win or lose. I look forward to our next encounter.