Dagor Nuin Giliath

[Maedhros]

Dagor Nuin Giliath or Battle Under the Stars
This is the first topic of Debate in the Guild of Tolkienologist, and I have name it in honor of another place and time when things used to be simpler and nobler. Praise the Guild.
Could Aman be considered a Paradise or Hell for the Race of Men?
Side A: Aman Paradise for Men.
Side B: Aman Hell for Men.

Members Side A: Elfarmari, Hirilia, Elu Thingol, Buu, Winged Elf, Iron Maiden and Nevavarein.
Members Side B: Mithlond, Ceorl, pohuist, Confusticated, Lhunithiliel, Vicerous Daydark and Dwimmerlaik.

Note to all members:In the subject of all of the post, please post your side.The use of the HOME Books is not permitted in this debate. :)

Have fun. Debate to begin in Saturday at 0:00 GMT and End Thursday at 0:00 GMT.

(Confusticated added by Grond)

[Lhunithiliel]

FOR GLORY OR FOR CURSE - I'LL BE THE FIRST!
Representing Team B

From the Silmarillion - AKALLABETH
When messengers from the Valar came to talk to the men of Numenor

The Messenger:
'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it.

The Numenoreans:
For of us is required a blind trust, and a hope without assurance, knowing not what lies before us in a little while. And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it.'

Rules and restrictions, fate, destiny - a fixed road the life of Men was supposed to follow - made by one, decided by one, predetermined by one, judged by one…
Fair? HOW COULD IT BE?!

A human soul, meant to be free and with a purpose even not known to the Eldar, not even to the Valar, must have most certainly felt like in Hell when such restrictions existed upon it, and, moreover – clearly demanded to be strictly following these rules, the reasons nor the purpose NEVER being clearly explained.

But the race of Men had that most particular characteristic blessing – to be restlessly searching for the new. This road was not an easy path to follow and great many difficulties Men had to overcome, but they did and constantly followed the “guiding light” – knowledge.
And now they are told – “Be quiet! Be still! Be patient! Stop searching!” – For Men that meant – “Stop living!”

[Hirila]

Introduction for Team A

Let me make a first step defending Aman, Men's Paradise.


And let me start without a quote. Let me start with a few thoughts that occured to me while trying to find some arguments pro Aman.
What came into my mind was this:
Yes, Men were meant to be a restless race, to be ever searching for more and better ways, always in search of the new, unknown. And yes, their path was not an easy one to tread. There were many hardships to suffer, many evils to fight and unbendable rules they had to follow and obey to. And yes, there was knowledge. What knowledge you ask?
I tell you: knowledge of a part of the world that would always be hidden, a part none of the race of men was allowed to see. Never, it is not even sure if they were allowed to go there when they left this world. But they knew of this land, where the Gods lived, where the elves wandered freely in peace. Undisturbed from the wars that haunted Middle-earth.

They had the d***** right to complain, to loose faith in the Gods, to be jealous of the elves who lived there and whose relatives east of the sea might get the right to go there, too, sometime.

But imagine what they would have felt without this last secret that lay before them. In my opinion Aman was some kind of motor to all Men did. Perhaps if they could ever discover all that was in Middle-Earth would they be allowed to enter the Secret Garden. And this meant hope. They, too, could meet the Gods, they, too, could once enter Paradise and enjoy its blessings. Aman was the light at the end of the tunnel. Aman was, where Men could go to when they would have lived up to triumph over evil and proved worthy of discovering all things in Arda. Including Aman.

[Lhunithiliel]

Greetings Hirilia from Team A ! :p

Let me put forward some thought on your post:

Originally posted by Hirilia
What knowledge you ask? I tell you: knowledge of a part of the world that would always be hidden, a part none of the race of men was allowed to see . Never, it is not even sure if they were allowed to go there when they left this world. But they knew of this land, where the Gods lived, where the elves wandered freely in peace
No, the race of Men was NEVER allowed to show up in Aman, not even step onto Eresea, either!
But come now, how would one feel if you show him/her smth. he/she worships and cherishes a lot and THEN you hide it and say: "Sorry! You saw it but you can NEVER have it!" "Why?" - he/she would rightfully ask.
But you DON'T give reasons, you just say NO! IT'S FORBIDDEN!
In respect to this point I'd say that IF Men were explained the order of this world and their place RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, they would have not felt regret which later lead them to the vicious thought to break this order.
On the other hand, if they were after all allowed to visit Eresea and Aman, they would have learned better of how their world had been ordered and again would have not wished otherwise.
Just a small quote from the Silmarillion clearly points this out - that at first they were just curious to see the unknown, to get more knowledge - that everlasting desire that Illuvatar himself gave to them.
. And since we have mastered all seas, and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome it, why should we not go to Avallone and greet there our friends?'

Originally posted by Hirilia
Aman was, where Men could go to when they would have lived up to triumph over evil and proved worthy of discovering all things in Arda. Including Aman.
But they did NOT, did they. For they were forbidden to do so.
And even if the wisest of Men knew about Aman - the blissful kingdom of the Mighy Valar, they must have also known that even their souls after their death would NOT go there but.... noone knew where except for Illuvatar himself.
All this clearly states that what Men had received from the Valar was nothing but a sort of a "Golden cage" .
WHO WOULD LIVE IN A CAGE???
One would much rather feel like in true hell!

[Ceorl]

To further the excellent points as laid down by Luthiniel;

Look at us; we also sitting behind our computer screens are men, are we not the most curious and adventurous of all beings known to us? Have we not conquered all terrain on our planet and attempting the exploration of the very universe?

The men of Middle-Earth are the same; they have the smae cravings, the same need for explanation, the same need to find answers to all their questions.

Look at how people could tease a small child; they show it a sweet but then refuse to let them taste it while slowly sucking away making various comments about how good it tastes.

Such is the case with the Atani of ME. To them who have the need to satisfy their curiosity burned into them, it must seem as if they are being taunted indeed. To be told wonderful tales of an immortal realm only to be denied access to it, must be torture unlike anything we have experienced, most especially when one feels finally the weakening of limbs and knows that his time to part is near.

To the Men of Middle-Earth this must be hell. The very name of Aman a torment to their despairing bodies.

Hirila I must say I feel your point is very weak. What would make any man think that he would be allowed to enter Aman should he 'discover all that was in Middle Earth'. and what kind of challenge is that anyway? to discover everything in the world?? It is not truly possible, new things will be discovered constantly.

Then finally to tear you apart a little more; even should the Men think of Aman as something to aspire to, that would not make it a heaven.

From the Oxford dictionary:

Heaven noun 1 The place where God and angels are thought to live. 2 a very pleasant place or condition.

We assume use of the second definition. What you are saying is that Aman is a place to aspire to and be jealous of the residents thereof, but that is not consistent with the dictionaries idea of heaven which is considered to be a pleasant condition or place.

In summary, this house has stated so far that the torment of not being able to reach a place which we have been able to take a quick peek at would make the very concept of Aman a hell to Men. Whereas so far the opposition has practically said that Aman is not a heaven but the proverbial carrot in front of the Donkey. Unattainable yet the driving force behind their lives.

I welcome any replies.

[Grond]

Excellent arguments. I'm proud of this guild for taking up a such a difficult topic on their first debate and already posting some very insightful interpretations. Keep up the good work.

P. S. My niece is married and on her way to the Ozarks. :)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Hirila
Yes, Men were meant to be a restless race, to be ever searching for more and better ways, always in search of the new, unknown.
Then...
But imagine what they would have felt without this last secret that lay before them. In my opinion Aman was some kind of motor to all Men did. Perhaps if they could ever discover all that was in Middle-Earth would they be allowed to enter the Secret Garden. And this meant hope. They, too, could meet the Gods, they, too, could once enter Paradise and enjoy its blessings. Aman was the light at the end of the tunnel. Aman was, where Men could go to when they would have lived up to triumph over evil and proved worthy of discovering all things in Arda. Including Aman.
Yes, men are restless and eversearching. Who's to say that going to Aman that all things would be known to them? All things are not even know to the Elves nor the Vala. So I can not imagine why all things would be known to men.
Let's just say though, that those things you listed above are known to men once they enter Aman...all that was in Middle-Earth for example: What then would this restless race do? Even if every answer were known how would this help men enjoy life? They would be satisfied for awhile, but their nature would cause them to want more. Men need stimulation through discovering and modification of the world around them. Without this stimulation they would be burn out and have no meaning in life. The would become more restless than ever knowing that the well of knowledge ran dry.

[Hirila]

Team A: Aman - Paradise for Men

Originally posted by Confusticated

Even if every answer were known how would this help men enjoy life? They would be satisfied for awhile, but their nature would cause them to want more. Men need stimulation through discovering and modification of the world around them. Without this stimulation they would be burn out and have no meaning in life.
Thanks very much for this, Confusticated.
It is exactlywhat I have said before: Men need stimulation. And what better stimulation could there be if there wasn't some part in the world noone knows.

It is the same with being Buddhist. Buddha, this state of mind a Buddha has achieved, is something you cannot imagine, you cannot know it, never. But nonetheless thousands of people live there lives in this philosophy, always searching for a way to Nirvana. And what is this Nirvana? Noone knows. To describe it as a "nothing" is not correct. Yet, people want to go there, achieve it.

Take the Christian Heaven. Is heaven a place or a state of mind? As you say, Lunithiel, heaven may be "a very pleasant place or condition". So let me give Aman a double meaning:

1- It is the place where the Gods live and where the Elves are allowed dwell. It is a place, more beautiful, more peaceful than anything else. The only thing is: Men are not allowed there. But it still is a "paradise", a paradise for all who live there.
So it is hell for those who don't? Why? I consider Heaven a wonderful place. Though I am not allowed to be there. Because I am alive. NBut it is still Paradise for me, no torture, no hell. It is not "Me" who enters it when my body has died, it is something else. Call it soul or whatever. But "I" that is my mind and my body. So "I" am not allowed to go to heaven, still I think of it as Eden. And so do Men in Middle Earth.

Another interpretation of "Aman" brings me here:
2- Aman is a very pleasant condition. It is the incarnation of joy, dance, singing and blossoming. Of water, forests, flowers, clouds. All the things that exist there are wonderful. And this feeling of joy is something even Men can achieve. They can either live with the hope to be once in their live in a state as elate as if they lived in Aman, or they nourish hope that Middle-Earth is a test for them. If they pass it, they may be allowed to discover things more beautiful than anything they have seen before.
We have the saying "This is like Heaven on earth" when we think something cannot be better. And the opposite of a "Hell on earth". Perhaps this is truer than we think. How often have we enjoyed precious moments in our lives. When we have found something that was lost, when we fall in love, when we simply enjoy the beauty of this world. This is something everyone can achieve. A delight and a mirth as if we already where in Heaven.

What would these people dream of if there wasn't this place called "Aman". It simply cannot be hell. Such a pleasant place one can dream of. A nightmare? No.


edit: I won't be able to post again in this debate. I am sorry. But I am going to Berlin on Monday and will only be back on Friday. I am sure Team A will do great. Team B: Good Luck to you. (Though you won't have a chance against us :))

[Nóm]

(keep forgetting this)- Team B Aman could be hell for men


Originally posted by Hirila
1- It is the place where the Gods live and where the Elves are allowed dwell. It is a place, more beautiful, more peaceful than anything else. The only thing is: Men are not allowed there. But it still is a "paradise", a paradise for all who live there.
So it is hell for those who don't? Why? I consider Heaven a wonderful place. Though I am not allowed to be there. Because I am alive. NBut it is still Paradise for me, no torture, no hell. It is not "Me" who enters it when my body has died, it is something else. Call it soul or whatever. But "I" that is my mind and my body. So "I" am not allowed to go to heaven, still I think of it as Eden. And so do Men in Middle Earth.


You compare men's relation/ideas of Aman to your own Ideas/relation to what you beleive to be a heaven that you will reach after death. You have something to look forward to in this.
The Men of Tolkien's world do not have Aman to look forward to, they will never go there.
If you found out that your idea of heaven will go on existing but that you yourself will never be there, what then? Would you still have that extra enjoyment and hope in life which is caused by your belief in your eventual arival to heaven.
I imagine this would be heartwrenching for most.


Originally posted by Hirila
What would these people dream of if there wasn't this place called "Aman". It simply cannot be hell. Such a pleasant place one can dream of. A nightmare? No.

Each man would have his own dreams.

[Elfarmari]

Could Aman be considered a Paradise or Hell for the Race of Men?
The question is about the physical place of Aman as perceived by Mortal Men. Men may have been tormented by the thought of not being able to enter Aman, but not because they thought of Aman as Hell. Aman was a name for unatainable bliss, which Mortal's had no hope of achieving.

This is not the best analogy, but here it is:
I am allergic to caffeine, so I do not like thinking about or seeing chocolate. I am jealous of those who can eat chocolate without getting a migraine, and do not like seeing others eat it because I know I cannot have it. This does not make chocolate a bad thing in my mind, rather, I probably think chocolate is much better than it really is, because it is unattainable.
Men could not go to Aman, and knew they could not. They were jealous of the Elves who were permitted to enter. The reason it tormented them to not be able to enter is because of the 'heaven-like' qualities it had in their minds. Ar-Pharazon was convinced (I do not have my book and cannot reference, sorry) that immortal life would be attained by any who set foot on the soil of Aman. This is an example of men over-estimating the reality.

[Mithlond]

Aman, the Hell for Men.
Yes, Aman was a paradise, what with its beautiful skies, mountains, green fields,
and the Valar spirits watching over them all.
Yes, Aman was a paradise, but not to the race of Men.

To the race of men, Aman was the unattainable paradise land, the sweet candy dangling from a string above a childs head, just out of hands reach.

This made Aman become a Hell for Men. They wanted it so bad, but they couldn't have it, and there wasn't a thing they could do about it.

Yes Ar-Pharazon was convinced that steping foot on the soil of Eressea would attain immortality, and so he strove his hardest to do so.
But what happened when he and his men did do so?
No immortality was gained, only the wraith of Eru himself!

Aman caused nothing but hell for the race of men, for they feared Aman, they feared the power that dwelt there.
'Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwe are come upon Numenor!'
And they fell upon their faces.

and when Ar-Pharazon came to Aman, and saw:
Taniquetil shining, whiter than snow, colder than death, silent, immutable, terrible as the shadow of the light of Illuvatar.

He knew what he had brought upon himself and his kind, he knew his folly, but "pride was now his master".

Aman for men, is the forbidden fruit. It's there, but they can never have it.

[Lhunithiliel]

Excellent point, Mithlond!

Let me comemnt a bit on a few things said by Team "B":
I have to admit, though, that this is going to LONG!!!!

As you say, Lunithiel, heaven may be "a very pleasant place or condition".
Well, I don’t recall ME saying these words, but I’ll believe the one who did as well as I’ll believe you, for you are the one to so masterfully describe Paradise:
From Hirilia:
It is a place, more beautiful, more peaceful than anything else….
Aman is a very pleasant condition. It is the incarnation of joy, dance, singing and blossoming. Of water, forests, flowers, clouds. All the things that exist there are wonderful.

But Men HAD ALL OF THIS on their island! :
A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor, for it was sundered from either by a wide sea; yet it was nearer to Valinor. It was raised by Osse out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aule and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressea.....
And thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset. And they brought to Númenor many gifts: birds of song, and fragrant flowers, and herbs of great virtue.
True Paradise on earth! All for Men! Why would they ever want anything more?
And WHY WOULDN'T they? Hadn't Illuvatar himself given to the race of Men the exceptional gift to ever search for new horizons? What satisfaction could Men have if they felt that this marvellous place was ONLY but a TINY PIECE of land and all wonders of the world were there - waiting to be discovered.
So:
.....the Dunedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in the making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace. Above all arts they nourished shipbuilding and sea-craft, and they became mariners whose like shall never be again since the world was diminished; and voyaging upon the wide seas was the chief feat and adventure of their hardy men in the gallant days of their youth.....
…….the Dúnedain in those days went ever eastward and not westward, from the darkness of the North to the heats of the South, and beyond the South to the Nether Darkness; and they came even into the inner seas, and sailed about Middle-earth and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East.
Men tried to "stay out of trouble" and not be tempted - look what they had achieved!
So, weren't they worthy enough to be at least kindly invited into Aman? Don't you think that if this had happened those wise people would have understood the real nature of the Valar and that they - Men, had their own destiny and that they should follow it, not chasing some himeras!

Instead:
...the Lords of Valinor forbade them to sail so far westward that the coasts of Numenor could no longer be seen; and for long the Dunedain were content, though they did not fully understand the purpose of this ban.
Well, this state could not last forever, could it?!
From Elfarmari:
Men may have been tormented by the thought of not being able to enter Aman, but not because they thought of Aman as Hell. Aman was a name for unattainable bliss, which Mortal's had no hope of achieving.
Exactly! Thank you for the understanding!
Aman was never perceived by Men as anything else but the most glorious and wonderful place in the world. Only they were NOT allowed to see it!
How ,do you think, that proud Numenoran people felt about their bodies being pleased and at the same time their free spirit - held "a prisoner" of unexplained dogmas?!
And FINALLY:
From Hirilia:
I consider Heaven a wonderful place. Though I am not allowed to be there. Because I am alive. NBut it is still Paradise for me, no torture, no hell. It is not "Me" who enters it when my body has died, it is something else. Call it soul or whatever. But "I" that is my mind and my body. So "I" am not allowed to go to heaven, still I think of it as Eden. And so do Men in Middle Earth.
Do you feel satisfied? ;)

[pohuist]

Team B -- Aman Hell for man
Let me be brief since my teammated were so elaborate:) :)

Any argument that team A can make will only advance our position: The more fair, attractive, beautiful, etc. Aman is, the more tormented are the men who can never get there. More, usually one is tormented in hell after the death, but men were tormented by Aman even alive. Elves, at least could escape ME to Aman if things went bad with Sauron and/or Morgoth. What about men? And what happenned to those who actually came close to Aman? Think of Al-Pharazon, the quotes are in the posts above. Its nost just hell, its superhell -- because men were tormented while still alive. No matter what you do, how good your life was, how many you help, you will never be worthy of going there. That's quite a motivation for going on living.:rolleyes:

[Dwimmerlaik]

I'm going to contribute to this debate(if anyone's noticed my absence),I'm just waiting for my turn.

[Maedhros]

Debate is over people. It Thrusday and it has passed from the hour of 0:00 GMT.

[Lhunithiliel]

The Debate - over and finished? :(
And NOW?
What happens?

Well, excuse me, but I have to share with you the opinion that Team "B" has been most active while Team "A" either did not find the topic interesting, or... I wonder what the reason could be for them being "absent" . Could it be that they did not find the right arguments?

However, I'd like to thank ALL my team-mates for their excellent posts and arguments that contributed to the Debate.
I enjoyed it!
And I think- WE WON! :p

[Gothmog]

As an outsider who has been following this debate, I would like to congratulate all invloved in it. I have greatly enjoyed it and feel that exelent points were brought in by all. You have done your Guild proud in the way you have debated.

I Thank you for the Enjoyment you have given to my while reading your posts.

[Lhunithiliel]

Hear this, guild-mates?
We have been highy evaluated! :p :D

I am so PROUD to be with you in this guild!

AGAIN THANK YOU ALL THAT HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THE DEBATE!

IT WAS A PLEASURE ! :p

[Grond]

And I can't begin to tell each of you how proud it is for me to be affiliated with so many intelligent and resourceful guild-mates. You have made everyone in this guild proud.

Maedhros will be back in here in the next day or so to mop this debate up. I'm not sure what he has in mind for the finale. Whether we will actually vote on a winner or not is up to him.

Again, congratulations to all who participated. Your ideas were excellent, well thought out and smartly communicated.

[Maedhros]

Well, I have to say that I'm very proud of the outcome of this debate. I have not the appropiate time to look into the details of the debate but it looked great.
My thanks to all of you for participating.
What I had in mind was to have a poll, and to have both Grond and me as judges of the debate. But because Gothmog has liked it so much, I will ask him to also act as a judge in this debate.
In the introduction, I asked that the HOME books were not used for a simple reason. In Morgoth's Ring, there's a part that discusses this in careful detail, and it wouldn't have been fair to use that.

[Ceorl]

Yes congratulations to all, a very fine debate, I enjoyed it greatly and am bitterly disappointed I was only able to post once, but congratulations to both sides WELL DONE!!

[Hirila]

Wow!

Guys, that was great, what you did. Team A and Team B. Real good. Now I am back online I have thousands of arguments for the Paradise-Side, but, time is up.
Nonetheless, it has been a great pleasure debating here. I'm already looking forward to what's coming next.
And as to the result of this debate... Wait and see.
Whoever judges will choose the right side. Us. ;)

[gate7ole]

I hadn't joined the guild at the time of the debate, but I read all the aguments afterwards and team B convinced me.
I'm looking forward to the next debate in which I'd like to participate