If elves are immortal....

[Sarah]

why don't they overpopulate?

[Rangerdave]

Maybe they wrap more than just lembas in those leaves?

:eek: :D ;)
RD

[Nóm]

Anyhow, the truth is that they do not have children as often as do humans.
For example, Elrond: I think he was soeemthing like 7,000 years old when he left Middle-Earth and he had only 3 children during that time. That is how it goes for Elves... I spose that if Elves lived for many thousands of years in peace they could see a signifigant change in population though.


PS: check the thread below "At what age do elves reach maturity"
There's a good answer to this question there.

[Nahar]

elves cant die from natural causes, such as disease, old age, etc. but they can be killed in battle and by weapons. so, its not like there are no elves that die.

[Camille]

well Sarah your question is valid, Imagine all the leves in Aman and Eressea after the changing of the world, would they be over populated? without natural enemies (orcs, dragons, werewolf) to control them?

[Nóm]

Well if we figure that most Elven couples have just a couple children, it would take a few thousand years for the population to double. I think they have enough land in Aman to allow their population to double every few thousand years for a long, long time before the population would become a problem.
If the Elves were starting to feel crowded the Valar could simply whip up another Island, perhaps? :D

[gate7ole]

IMO Tolkien made Elves a superior race, capable of recognizing the responsibility of spreading too many children.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gate7ole
IMO Tolkien made Elves a superior race, capable of recognizing the responsibility of spreading too many children.

Ya,I agree...I don't think the elves would ever overpopulate.

[Goldberry]

Originally posted by ithrynluin


Ya,I agree...I don't think the elves would ever overpopulate.

So that must mean...the elves aren't having any fun. No wonder Arwen wanted to become mortal!

[Khamul]

Well, I guess that the lifespan of the Elves made them more interested in nature than in the ways of well, romance...;)

[ApplCobbler]

Well....when Feanor was born, his mother said that she was drained, and would not be able to birth anymore children, then she died. So maybe it is that after a certain amount of children, they run out of the energy to have more children. And become barren or something.

Next item of business, lembas condoms?:eek: :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Please, let me slightly change the topic, for there is a question that has bothered me for a while.
If Elves were immortal and as they knew that they could lose their body, but their souls can never perish and can be reincarnated into a new body, then WHY were they so afraid of death?

[Nóm]

Fair question. I never really thought of them as being affraid of dying though. They would have to wait in the halls of Mandos though, for who knows how long before getting sent back to Aman with a Body. It could be that they do not look forward to loitering in the halls of Mandos for years. I read in a debate yesterday that somewhere Tolkien wrote about the psychological effects of reincarnation on the Elves, it oculd be that these were negative enough to cause elves to dread death..:confused:


Then he spoke to Beren, saying: 'I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman. It will be long ere I am seen among the Noldor again; and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death of life, for the fates of our kindreds are apart. Farewell!' He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair.

long? who knows how long that would be. I don't, someone else may know where to find more information of the length of their stays.

I just had to use Finrod's quote!..:p :o

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Please, let me slightly change the topic, for there is a question that has bothered me for a while.
If Elves were immortal and as they knew that they could lose their body, but their souls can never perish and can be reincarnated into a new body, then WHY were they so afraid of death?

Well, it may be that it hurts. Since the Elves can only be "killed" through violent means. I would think that would be something to avoid.

This is much the same as a bruised forehead. I know a bruise will heal and all will return to normal, but I would still rather duck.

RD

[Popqueen62]

It's like when i broke my foot in August, i didn't want it to happen, and if i knew it was going to happen, i would be a little freaked, even though it would heal, it still hurts (it's still broken)

[Lhunithiliel]

Rangerdave: Well, it may be that it hurts. Since the Elves can only be "killed" through violent means. I would think that would be something to avoid.
I too, thought this could be the reason. Isn't it sad that these fair creatures would have been slain in such ruthless manners?! One must have been "ripped" off to die. A death can never be a pleasant experience, true, but at least there are swift and "easier" deaths. Poor Elves! They could not hope for such!

When I asked the question, I also had in mind that when an Elf perished (for they did not just died) the other Elves felt strong and deep sorrow and grief for the one who died.
So, I guess that the halls of Mandos must have been a far from pleasant place.
And true, Confisticated has asked an interesting question - how and where can we learn about the length of stay in the halls of Mandos?

[Ceorl]

I don't think that Tolkien ever bothered to concern himself with things like overpopulation. Look at some numbers, lets assume that Valior is as big as North America; how many people do you think live in the big cities in Valinor? Say twice as many as lived in Gondolin, and the fighting force of Gondolin was fourteen thousand, so we could probably assume that the population of Gondolin was 70000 at the very most(assuming alot of the army was left behind to defend the city). So then Valmar or Tirion would have a population of no more than 200000. Many cities in America have more than 100million people living there. It can be assumed that the population of Valinor can be doubled, trebled and quadrupled for many years to come; and, if they do finally run out of room then, as Confusticated said, the Valar would just make more space.

The length of stay of the Elves in the Halls of Mandos I assume is subject to change at the will of the Valar; they pulled Glorfindel out for his services to Arda and put him back in ME pretty soon. And it is said of Finrod Felagund;
Finrod walks with Finarfin his father under the trees in Valimar

it is said also of Luthien in the Halls of Mandos:
But her beauty has greater than their beauty, and her sorrow was deeper than their sorrow

The Halls of Mandos were a sad depressing place, and I do not think anyone would wish to go there, it must be sad indeed to see the spirits of all the slain Elves sitting and contemplating their existence.

[Weathergirl2006]

Maybe it takes a long time fto teach all ther knowledge and skills so they wait a long time in between..

[Maedhros]

If Elves were immortal and as they knew that they could lose their body, but their souls can never perish and can be reincarnated into a new body, then WHY were they so afraid of death?
Certainly, they would be afraid of losing their hröa (body) and then going to the Halls of Mandos, but they were afraid of death, or rather what happens after they die. The fëar of the elves was tied to Arda, and that was something that ate at them, what happened to the elves after the end of the world?
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
You see us, the Quendi, still in the first ages of our being, and the end is far off. As maybe among you death may seem to a young man in his strength; save that we have long years of life and thought already behind us. But the end will come. That we all know. And then we must.die; we must perish utterly, it seems, for we belong to Arda (in hröa and fëa). And beyond that what? "The going out to no return," as you say; "the uttermost end, the irremediable loss"?
'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.'