Were-worms?

[In Flames]

"Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert."
This is said by Bilbo in the Hobbit, what exactly are Were-worms?
I have looked through the books but i can't find them mentioned anywhere else. Or have i just missed it?:)
So can anyone clarify this for me?

[Turgon]

At a guess - I would say that the were-worms were hobbit legends, creatures from Hobbit-lore like the Mewlips or the Fastitocalon or even the Oliphaunt, passed down as half-remember tales from the days when hobbits roamed free over the wide lands of Middle-earth. By Bilbo's time the Hobbits of the Shire had become insular and ignorant of the world outside, their knowledge of distant lands sketchy to say the least. I'm sure that even Bilbo himself would be hard pressed to tell you what a were-worm actually was, that is if were-worms existed at all.

But then again - Oliphaunts...

[In Flames]

Thank you Turgon. Your answer sounds right to me and made sense.

But as you said...Oliphaunts..:)

[Ancalagon]

Personally I would hazard a guess at 'were-worms', being a legend akin to Dragons. However, Hobbits knew about (at least spoke about) Dragons, mainly the winged variety, whereas were-worms might represent those that simply slithered as serpents, such as Glaurung. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.
I imagine the stories filtered through from Dwarves who passed close to the Shire or even from conversations to be had in Bree. Dwarves would have the greatest knowledge of these beasts as so many of the great cities were sacked by these serpents of Morgoth. The Appendix A of Return of the King tells of Eorl The Young, who slayed Scatha The Worm, bane of the Dwarves of The Grey Mountains. In Westron they are referred to as long-worms which is where the link to were-worms is inherited. Yet, Hobbits tell of Were-worms living in The Last Desert, which I beleive refers to the Nothern Wastes and not The Great Desert of Harad. Then again, this is only specualtion on my part as much of this lore is simple folk-tale passed through the years and no doubt changed over the passing.

[In Flames]

Ah another good answer.:)

Thank you Ancalagon for posting your thoughts on this.
I love this forum, i learn things every day!:D

[Nenya Evenstar]

This is complete speculation on my part. Perhaps the were-worms were dragons inhabited by the spirits of men. That is the definition of were-wolves, and this idea just popped into my head. Perhaps either Sauron or Morgoth did something along this affect to make their creatures more powerful. Again, just speculation... :)

[Theoden]

I think Were-Worms were a Hobbit way of saying Dragons. Often, in older writings, dragons are actually mentioned as "worms". So perhaps it was just a fabrication on their part and that is what Bilbo was saying, oh perchance he was refering to Smaug himself, I don't know. That is my theory, though.

-me

[falcolite]

Hmm...well, for one thing, where exactly was the Last Desert? I think this is the only place within Tolkiens works where he mentions were-worms, or even The Last Desert.

The Encylcopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda) explains were-worms as this:
-Creatures of an unknown kind, possibly mythical and presumably related to dragons, that were said to dwell in the Last Desert.
-Tolkien only ever mentions were-worms once, in the quote given above, so we know almost nothing about them. We cannot even be certain that they actually existed - the Hobbits had a rich folklore peopled with fantastic beings, and were-worms quite possibly fall into that category.
-If they did exist, the name 'were-worm' suggests a shapeshifting creature like a werewolf - a being that could take the form of either a Man or of a Dragon. Any discussion of the form or habits of the were-worms, though, must remain in the realms of speculation.


So I dunno, if anyone does know where the Last Desert is, that could help....:cool:

[Proudfoots]

Let's not forget that the Hobbit was a childrens book and mentions other things that are common in our myths eg hobgoblins, that never reappear in other ME books.

Also, when the company of Thorin heads out of the Shire they pass through lands less populated, get mugged by the Trolls, and yet they never seem to pass through Bree (which, according to appendices, is where Gandalf met Thorin in the first place) and yet they never stop at the 'Pony, which seems to be the best place outside of the Shire for a pint...

It is not a seemless book like the works of LOTR and Sil

'foots

[Galdor]

My theory would be that "Were-worms," were flightless dragons, or cold-drakes. For the hobbits would have heard mostly of only the flying fire drakes, who at that time were much more common. And then when a story comes around that in far off lands there are creatures that look like dragons, but can nether fly or breath fire, the hobbits called them "Were-worms." That's of course just a theory, but what do you guys think of it?

[Wolfshead]

I'd agree with you there, Galdor. Infact, I was about to suggest that they were non-flight dragons myself.

Or possibly, they are your average earth-worm inhabited by the spirits of men? Like were-wolves and such like :D

[Maerbenn]

Yet, Hobbits tell of Were-worms living in The Last Desert, which I beleive refers to the Nothern Wastes and not The Great Desert of Harad. I am sorry if replies to age-old threads are against the general etiquette on this board, but why do you believe that?

[Illuvatar]

I'd agree with you there, Galdor. Infact, I was about to suggest that they were non-flight dragons myself.

Or possibly, they are your average earth-worm inhabited by the spirits of men? Like were-wolves and such like :D

I'll have to dissagree on that one. If you look at the map at the beginning of the Hobbit, it shows an arrow pointing to a region with a winged dragon, and it says: "Far to the North are the Grey Mountains & the Withered Heath wence came the Great Worms" This shows definitely that they are to the North, leading one to believe that they are the descendants of the creatures Morgoth raised in the First Age.

[Wolfshead]

Ah ha, yes, but that's in reference to the Withered Heath where there were definitely dragons. However, Bilbo was talking about in the east, and he seems to be implying further to the east rather than the north.

[Starbrow]

I always thought that were-worms referred to dragons that didn't fly. Flying dragons weren't around until the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. That's how come Turin was able to kill Glaurung by attacking him from below as the dragon attempted to cross a chasm.

[jallan]

Well were simply means ‘man’ in Old English and Middle English and worm means ‘snake, serpent’.

Werewolf means ‘man-wolf’, normally applied to a man who can change into wolf form. Wereworm suggests something similar, a man who can change into a serpent or dragon or is somehow a combination of man and serpent.

Now the last desert to the East, presuming Tolkien in writing The Hobbit had something like like the Afro-Eurasian supercontinent in mind, would be the Gobi Desert. Beyond it, to the south, is India where myths and legends speak of being called a naga.

Actually Naga just means ‘snake, serpent’ but nagas mentioned in old Hindu literature are often pictured in art as beings in human form from the waist up but serpent beneath. See Naga (http://grenier2clio.free.fr/hindou/pic/naga.jpg) or Naga (http://www.ugensociety.org/img/naga.jpg) or Green Naga (http://david.bonafonte.free.fr/Naga.gif).

It is possible that something like this was what Tolkien was thinking about.

[Starbrow]

That's an interesting proposition, Jallan. Thanks for the information.

[Manwe]

Yet, Hobbits tell of Were-worms living in The Last Desert, which I beleive refers to the Nothern Wastes and not The Great Desert of Harad. At a guess - I would say that the were-worms were hobbit legends, creatures from Hobbit-lore like the Mewlips or the Fastitocalon or even the Oliphaunt, passed down as half-remember tales from the days when hobbits roamed free over the wide lands of Middle-earth. By Bilbo's time the Hobbits of the Shire had become insular and ignorant of the world outside, their knowledge of distant lands sketchy to say the least. I'm sure that even Bilbo himself would be hard pressed to tell you what a were-worm actually was, that is if were-worms existed at all.

Oliphaunts (Mumakil),we assume, live in The Desert of Harad. Maybe Hobbits heard many 'myths" about this place that they made into folklore. Therefore we could assume that many other mythilogical beasts that they had heard of lived there too! :eek:

[After Chimaeras]

Could it be that Bilbo, in order to express his fervor, made up some fantastical sounding thing, based perhaps, as said before, on legends that had trickled down through the ages?

[AraCelebEarwen]

And this is what happens when you look for a word you never knew existed!!! :eek: (It was brought up somewhere and I HAD to look for it!)

SO! Any new ideas here!? I mean, really!, what IS a wereworm!?!? :confused: I like the ideas of their being similar to a werewolf and such... and even the half dragon, half human thing. (wierd yes, though rather cool) But please! Anyone else have some info here? New members? Older and more informed members? ANYONE!?!? WHAT IS A WHEREWORM?????

(Of corse I have a few thoughts but would like to know if anyone is even interested in continuing this. :D )

[baragund]

Deconstructing the term 'were-worm' to it's roots of 'man-dragon' or 'man-serpent' certainly gives you an idea of what Tolkien was thinking about when he wrote it. Don't forget that languages was his thing and he wouldn't have used the term lightly.

I'm not aware of anything in Tolkien's writings that referred to a creature that was half man / half dragon, but perhaps the Middle-earth dragon's abilities to speak and reason gave them enough of a human quality to warrant the term 'were'.

As to location, I believe Bilbo is referring to the far east of Middle-earth. The land of Rhun or even beyond that.

[Walter]

εὕρηκα! (http://virtual.parkland.edu/ias/publications/Illinois_Rock_Art/images/piasa.jpg)

;)

Father Jacques Marquette saw this monster called Piasa - or better: a depiction of it in form of a rock drawing - during a journey through Illinois in 1673...

[Ithrynluin]

The wingless dragon theory seems to be the simplest and most acceptable, including the least speculation, since we know that wingless dragons did indeed exist, and this could merely be a name for them.

But the more intriguing theories are those that include some sort of shape shifters, perhaps inhabited by man-spirits as Nenya suggests. We do know of some examples of shape shifting into snakes and the like, e.g. Sauron, but he is an Ainu. But there's also Beorn (a man) and Thuringwethil, the winged messenger of Sauron about whom we don't know much. In light of this, the were-worm shape-shifter theory may not be as unprecedented.

But what I find the most fascinating is the proposed theory that these were-worms are not shape shifters, but simply half-men half-serpents, or so called 'naga', which are one of my very favourite mythological creatures.

Too bad we don't have more info on this topic, as on numerous others.

[Walter]

On a somewhat more serious sidenote, in ancient myths - especially in those up to the early bronze-age such 'man-serpent' creatures are quite frequently found.

And in later myths they survive, there mostly depictured as evil monsters who are slain by the "good guys". Marduk's victory over Tiamat and her serpent creatures, Zeus' eventual victory over Typhon, Jahweh's victory over Leviathan or Thor's fight with the Midgardserpent are examples of this frequent motif.

Tolkien most probably knew most of these myths and it wouldn't take me by surprise had he - more or less thoughtlessly - used the term were-worms as a reference when he read a tale to his children - which was the primary goal of The Hobbit when Tolkien conceived it: a tale for his children...

[Snaga]

It is worth bearing in mind that there is not much to suggest that the term 'werewolf' as used by Tolkien refers to anything similar to creatures of 20-21st century movies. It has never seemed to me that these creatures are mannish in any sense at all. Whilst the form-changing ability may exist, this should not necessarily be taken to imply human origins. Indeed, Sauron took the form of a werewolf. This can only mean that he took the shape of a monstrous wolf, but the term werewolf can be applied since he could also assume a human form. If there were to be any truth to Hobbit legends, I don't think this would mean there were humans who could turn into dragons.

My own theory would be that dragons could perhaps, by use of magic and their domineering spirit, persuade the incredulous and simple that they were seeing a human. The illusion once shattered might give rise to the idea of the wereworm. Again, just a theory.:)

[Barliman Butterbur]

"Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert."
This is said by Bilbo in the Hobbit, what exactly are Were-worms?
I have looked through the books but i can't find them mentioned anywhere else. Or have i just missed it?:)
So can anyone clarify this for me?

My understanding is that "were-worm" is a synonym for Dragon.

Barley

[Walter]

It is worth bearing in mind that there is not much to suggest that the term 'werewolf' as used by Tolkien refers to anything similar to creatures of 20-21st century movies. It has never seemed to me that these creatures are mannish in any sense at all. Whilst the form-changing ability may exist, this should not necessarily be taken to imply human origins. Indeed, Sauron took the form of a werewolf. This can only mean that he took the shape of a monstrous wolf, but the term werewolf can be applied since he could also assume a human form. If there were to be any truth to Hobbit legends, I don't think this would mean there were humans who could turn into dragons.

Very much so. I think Tolkien used 'were-worm" purposely to avoid the term dragon. The word 'dragon' has become a symbol for an animal which - though it doesn't exist in our world - everyone can imagine and this image - more or less - resembles one of the pictures/drawings/paintings we all have seen in our youth.

But the mythological creatures which are considered dragons in old myths are not so easily depicted. Tiamat, for example, which represents the oldest "dragon" in existing written tradition (namely the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation-myth) is not only portrayed as dragon or sea-serpent, but also described as primordial mother, chaos-dragon, the priciple of salt water and the ocean encircling the world.

Picture it! ;)

[Snaga]

In passing, on the subject of the prefix "were-"... I noticed that the host that Morgoth unleashed against Feanor is described in the Grey Annals as containing "Orcs and werewolves". This before the arising of the Sun and the awakening of Men.

[Barliman Butterbur]

In passing, on the subject of the prefix "were-"... I noticed that the host that Morgoth unleashed against Feanor is described in the Grey Annals as containing "Orcs and werewolves". This before the arising of the Sun and the awakening of Men.

Before we proceed much further with this:

I Googled TOLKIEN WEREWOLF, and came up with this:

"A Note on Beren and Lúthien's Disguise as Werewolf And Vampire-Bat [by]
Thomas Honegger"

"...The following discussion of a possible source for Beren and Lúthien's disguise as werewolf and vampire-bat is intended to provide an example of work in this direction."

Full article at http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/tolkien_studies/v001/1.1honegger.html

This student makes some highly interesting points on our subject (although it's but one more subjective opinion, albeit couched in academic language).

Barley

[Alcuin]

<snarky comment> Maybe they were only worms during full moons. </snarky comment>

[Walter]

<snarky comment> Maybe they were only worms during full moons. </snarky comment>
That's it! ;)

But then again...maybe they were only men during full moons... :D