The Never Asked Question [Archive]

Nóm

09-15-2002, 10:14 AM

Long they dwelt in their first home by the water under stars, and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.

Well that is all I can find right now. but elsewhere it says more specificly that the Quendi have been awake for a long time before they were discovered..something like "many ages went by before the Valar discovered the Quendi. I will post it if I find it, unless someone beats me to it, I think it is stated after Orome tells the other Valar about the Quendi if anybody wants to look for it. I swear I read a couple days ago!:)

The impression I got just from reading the Silmarillion is that at least 3,000 years had passed between the awakening and the reaching of Aman by the Vanyar.

I don't just base this on the references to time but the feel of the numbers of the groups as they were decribed travling west. As Rangerdave said, I too do not think that it is told anywhere exactly how much time went by before they journeyed. I also do not think that any elf known by name can be proven as being among those firstborn. Not even cirdan or Thingol.

Nowhere have I read any mention of the way they looked outside of what is told in The Silmarillion: They were greater in size.

Opnion on related issue: I think that the nature of the elves personalities changed quite a bit during those first generations. What should have been the natural evolution of the elves was altered because Melkor weeded out certain ones. For example those elves with an over curious nature or tendency to wander where taken easier by Melkor. How many of the original had desendants who even made it to the first age?... had it not been for Melkor we may have then seen a whole different type(s) of elf, and who can say what they'd be like. Maybe they would have ended up staying in Middle-earth to the end, wandering the lands and meeting up with men and hobbits every chance they got?:D

Lhunithiliel

09-15-2002, 10:54 AM

Thank you very much, Confusticated!
Your post cleared up some things that I must have forgotten or missed.

How careless on part of the Valar and Eru himself then!
To create and then to "forget" about their creation!
Wasn't it however, said that Orome "AS IF " discovered the Elves?
Then if this is true (it was somewhere in the text) then there must have been a purpose for doing so. I can't imagine the Valar and Eru doing smth. without purpose. What could it have been, then? WHY had they "AS IF " forgotten about the Firstborn Children?
Could it be because the new race had to prove its vitality and adaptability? :confused:

I hope we shall continue to search for the rightfull answer to my previous question.
But here is another one from me:
The Argonath statutes - they were built by the Numenoreans - Right?
Can somebody provide information about who EXACTLY created them? And WHAT was the purpose?
---------
Oh, that Lhunithiliel! Never stops asking! :mad: ;)

Nóm

09-15-2002, 02:18 PM

It the Appenix A of The Lord of the Rings, it says that they were built by King Romandacil. Near the first part of The Third age..(I think).It gives more information than I am giving....But that is were it is mentioned so you can find it. I don't know of any other references to the building of Argonath.But....

This is said in the Silmarillion...
In Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion, but they shared the realm between them and their thrones were set side by side in the Great Hall of Osgiliath. These were the chief dwellings of the Númenóreans in Gondor, but other works marvellous and strong they built in the land in the days of their power, at the Argonath, and at Aglarond, and at Erech; and in the circle of Angrenost, which Men called Isengard, they made the pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.
I'm not sure sure what that refers to but someone else here probably does. :D

And about the Valar and elves....
The Valar shaped and prepared the earth for the coming of the firstborn, but had nothing to do with their actually awakening. That was Eru's work. The Valar awaited the firstborn, they did look forward to them, but it seems to me that years where so many that even taking 5,000 (just random use of number here) years to discover them would really not be long when measured on the Valar's time scale...Probably this is much like a human awaiting something great for months, but not bothering to check for it for a couple days in a row and then BAMMM!! Someone rushes in and announces that it has arived..:)

It came to pass that the Valar held council, for they became troubled by the tidings that Yavanna and Oromë brought from the Outer lands; and Yavanna spoke before the Valar, saying: 'Ye mighty of Arda, the Vision of Ilúvatar was brief and soon taken away, so that maybe we cannot guess within a narrow count of days the hour appointed. Yet be sure of this: the hour approaches, and within this age our hope shall be revealed, and the Children shall awake
At the counsil...this happend....
But at the bidding of Manwë Mandos spoke, and he said: 'In this age the Children of Ilúvatar shall come indeed, but they come not yet. Moreover it is doom that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness, and shall look first upon the stars. Great light shall be for their waning. To Varda ever shall they call at need.'
I think that is about the last the Valar were told as far as when the firstborn would be awakend. Orome happend upon them while he was out hunting down evil creatures....If there was meaning in that, I do not know what it was exactly. One could say that his finding the elves when he did might have actually saved them from being completely killed off by Melkor....one might say other things too.

As far as proving vitality: I would say no, I do not think this needed to be proven.

As far as proving adaptability: I do not htink they were proving adaptability, but as I indicated in my last post: The elves did adapt, and this may well have been on purpose.
In fact I think it's more likely that there was a power keeping the elves from being discovered for awhile, rather than a power helping them to be discovered at last. Eru perhaps wanted these elves to learn about hard times? learn to protect themselves and prepare for what was to come. Now it's pretty clear that The Valar did not know what the elves where in for but we're talking about Eru here....He probably knew that the elves needed to learn these things early on....perhaps even (as I said earlier) weeding out certain ones. Eru himself may not have been sure exactly how to craft the elves, so he maybe tinkered around a bit and came up with several variations that each had their own strengths and weaknesses.....:eek: ......:D

Grond

09-15-2002, 04:37 PM

from HoMe XI, The War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar
While their first bodies were being made from the ‘flesh of Arda’ the Quendi slept ‘in the womb of the Earth’, beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown. But the First Elves (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her ‘destined spouse’. But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in strange places. These three Elf-fathers are named in the ancient tales Imin, Tata, and Enel. They awoke in that order, but with little time between each; and from them, say the Eldar, the words for one, two, and three were made: the oldest of all numerals.

Imin, Tata and Enel awoke before their spouses, and the first thing that they saw was the stars, for they woke in the early twilight before dawn. And the next thing they saw was their destined spouses lying asleep on the green sward beside them. Then they were so enamoured of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to ‘think of words’ to speak and sing in. And being impatient they could not wait but woke up their spouses. Thus, the Eldar say, the first thing that each elf-woman saw was her spouse, and her love for him was her first love; and her love and reverence for the wonders of Arda came later.

Now after a time, when they had dwelt together a little, and had devised many words, Imin and Iminyë, Tata and Tatië, Enel and Enelyë walked together, and left the green dell of their waking, and they came soon to another larger dell and found there six pairs of Quendi, and the stars were again shining in the morrow-dim and the elf-men were just waking.

Then Imin claimed to be the eldest and to have the right of first choice; and he said: ‘I choose these twelve to be my companions.’ And the elf-men dwelt together a little and had learned many words and devised more, they walked on together, and soon in another even deeper and wider hollow they found nine pairs of Quendi, and the elf-men had just waked in the starlight.

Then Tata claimed the right of second choice, and he said: ‘I choose these eighteen to be my companions.’ Then again the elf-men woke their spouses, and they dwelt and spoke together, and devised many new sounds and longer words; and then the thirty-six walked abroad together, until they came to a grove of birches by a stream, and there they found twelve pairs of Quendi, and the elf-men likewise were just standing up, and looking at the stars through the birch boughs.

Then Enel claimed the right of third choice, and he said: ‘I choose these twenty-four to be my companions.’ Again the elf-men woke their spouses; and for many days the sixty Elves dwelt by the stream, and soon they began to make verse and song to the music of the water.

At length they all set out together again. But Imin noticed that each time they had found more Quendi than before, and he thought to himself: ‘I have only twelve companions (although I am the eldest)); I will take a later choice.’ Soon they came to a sweet-smelling firwood on a hill-side, and there they found eighteen pairs of Quendi, and all were still sleeping. It was still night and clouds were in the sky. But before dawn a wind came, and roused the elf-men, and they woke and were amazed at the stars; for all the clouds were blown away and the stars were bright from east to west. And for a long time the eighteen new Quendi took no heed of the others, but looked at the lights of Menel. But when at last they turned their back to earth they beheld their spouses and woke them to look at the stars, crying to them elen, elen! And so the stars got their name.

Now Imin said: ‘I will not choose again yet’; and Tata, therefore, chose these thirty-six to be his companions; and they were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir-trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.

And the ninety-six Quendi now spoke together, and the newly-waked devised many new and beautiful words, and many cunning artifices of speech; and they laughed, and danced upon the hill-side, until at last they desired to find more companions. Then they all set out again together, until they came to a lake dark in the twilight; and there was a great cliff about it upon the east-side, and a waterfall came down from the height, and the stars glittered on the foam. But the elf-men were already bathing in the waterfall, and they had waked their spouses. There were twenty-four pairs; but as yet they had formed no speech, though they sang sweetly and their voices echoed in the stone, mingling with the rush of the falls.

But again Imin withheld his choice, thinking ‘next time it will be a great company’. Therefore Enel said: ‘I have the choice, and I choose these forty-eight to be my companions.’ And the hundred and forty-four Quendi dwelt long together by the lake, until they all became of one mind and speech, and were glad.

At length Imin said: ‘It is time now that we should go on and seek more companions.’ But most of the others were content. So Imin and Iminyë and their twelve companions set out, and they walked long by day and by twilight in the country about the lake, near which all the Quendi had awakened – for which reason it is called Cuiviénen. But they never found any more companions, for the tale of the First Elves was complete.

And so it was that the Quendi ever after reckoned in twelves, and that 144 was for long their highest number, so that in none of their later tongues was there any common name for a greater number. And so also it came about that the ‘Companions of Imin’ or the Eldest Company (of whom came the Vanyar) were nonetheless only fourteen in all; but the ‘Companions of Tata’ (of whom came the Noldor) were fifty-six in all; but the ‘Companions of Enel’ although the Youngest Company were the largest; from them came the Teleri (or Lindar), and they were in the beginning seventy-four in all.

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at ‘morrow-dim’ and at ‘even-dim’, were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda. But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.I continue to look for definitive dates linking the Awakening and the Finding by Orome. :)

Nóm

09-15-2002, 04:57 PM

All the the times I've saw people around here quote things that I have not yet read, this one is the best. Thanks Grond. I had no idea that stuff existed. These books never fail to surprise me.

Grond

09-15-2002, 05:23 PM

from HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Arda

1050
$36 Last of all Varda made the sign of bright stars that is called the Valakirka, the Sickle of the Gods, and this she hung about the North as a threat unto Utumno and a token of the doom of Melkor.
$37 In that hour, it is said, the Quendi, the Elder Children of Iluvatar, awoke: these Men have named the Elves, and many other names. By the Waters of Awakening, Kuivienen, they rose 'from the sleep of Iluvatar and their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight, and have revered Varda Elentarie above all the Valar.
$38 In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Kuivienen there is no returning. But it is said among the Quendi that it lay far off in Middle-earth, eastward of Endon (which is the midmost point) and northward; and it was a bay in the Inland Sea of Helkar. And that sea stood where aforetime the roots of the mountain of Illuin had been ere Melkor overthrew it. Many waters flowed down thither from heights in the East, and the first sound that was heard by the ears of the Elves was the sound of water flowing, and the sound of water falling over stone.
$39 Long the Quendi dwelt in their first home by the water under stars and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. And they named themselves the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.
$40 At this time also, it is said, Melian, fairest of the Maiar, desiring to look upon the stars, went up upon Taniquetil; and suddenly she desired to see Middle-earth, and she left Valinor and walked in the twilight.

1085.
$41 And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years) it chanced that Orome rode to Endon in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helkar and passed under the shadows of the Orokarni, the Mountains of the East. And on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing and then stood still. And Orome wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.
$42 Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And when Orome looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars.

The original manuscript page was interpolated at this point, a passage being written in the-margin as follows:
Yet by after-knowledge the masters of lore say sadly that Orome was not, mayhap, the first of the Great Ones to look upon the Elves, for Melkor was on the watch, and his spies were many. And it is thought that lurking near his servants had led astray some of the Quendi that ventured afield, and they took them as captives to Utumno, and there enslaved them. Of these slaves it is held came the Orkor that were afterward chief foes of the Eldar. And Melkor's lies were soon abroad, so that whispers were heard among the Quendi, warning them that if any of their kindred passed away into the shadows and were seen no more, they must beware of a fell huntsman on a great horse, for he it was that carried them off to devour them. Hence it was that at the approach of Orome many of the Quendi fled and hid themselves.I am not insinuating that this is Tolkien's final word on the matter. This is just one of his time lines for the "birth" of the Quendi and their later "discovery" by Orome. (Note that 335 years gives ample time for many generations of Quendi to be born.)

Lhunithiliel

09-15-2002, 09:17 PM

Grond, you NEVER stop amazing me with your knowledge!

After I asked the question I started looking what I've got on the issue in my computer. I have almost all the texts here but I am still trying to make some order. I have almost finished reading a tale called "Coming of the Elves and the building of Kor" - I can't even figure out for now what book this is from. However, nothing specific is said there about what I had asked. It's such a beautiful tale, though!

THANK YOU!
I wonder how you find a piece of text when you need one.
There are so many texts with so much information - some are tales, some are sort of articles by CrT... My head goes spinning! Sometimes I think I won't be able to put everything in order!
However, I'll keep on reading... and putting everything in order.

Say, Grond, have you read EVERYTHING by and about Tolkien? :confused:
THANKS AGAIN!
It was most educative!
And thank you Confusticated as well! :p

And about the Argonath - is the only information to be found in the Appendices to LOTR?

gate7ole

09-15-2002, 11:12 PM

I'm too amazed by the Grond's ability to find the answers to our continuous curious questions.
And I too have a question to you, Grond.
Do you have all the books in electronical format and just copy-paste the stuff you quote?
If yes, where did you find them? I find it very tiring to type all these paragraphs when I want to present proof for my argument.

Grond

09-16-2002, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by gate7ole
I'm too amazed by the Grond's ability to find the answers to our continuous curious questions.
And I too have a question to you, Grond.
Do you have all the books in electronical format and just copy-paste the stuff you quote?
If yes, where did you find them? I find it very tiring to type all these paragraphs when I want to present proof for my argument. Yes and yes again. ;)

It should also be noted that I own every one of Tolkien's Middle-earth works in hardback as well. My library is quite extensive and I intend to post a picture of it as soon as my remodeling is done and I get my study back in order. :)

gate7ole

09-17-2002, 01:27 AM

Ok, our questions about the origins of elves were almost answered. But what about their situation at the beginning of the Fourth Age and afterwards? From the subdivisions of Elves, the great majority of the Noldor must have returned to Aman. So, it leaves us with the Sindar and the other Avari (some Silvan for example). But I think they are too few. Only Thranduil's grey elves and the elves of Lothlorien. Oh, I forgot Cirdan and his folk. Others I don't remember. Where are the other Avari (those that refused the Great Journey), where are the green elves of Ossiriant, the people of Thingol. Have they all perished? Or did they take the Straight Road? The world without elves seems less wise and yet less joyfull

Ithrynluin

09-17-2002, 01:57 PM

I posted this question in The Silmarillion forum but it wasn't answered adequately.So I would like my fellow Tolkienologists to ponder about it;)
It is more a series of minor questions than one great question.
Alright.What do you think,where did the ship that bore the Ring-bearers go? To Eressea or Valinor? I always wondered about that. What about Gimli and Legolas? Were these "special" mortals allowed only to Eressea or to Valinor also?
After the War of Wrath,the Ban of the Valar was lifted from the Noldorin elves,yet it remained upon Galadriel because she refused to return to Aman - I find this extremely illogical;why keep the Ban just because she had not the desire to return?Did the Valar forbid the free choice of the Firstborn?Were they just a bit hypocritical and arrogant?

I doubt these questions have a proper answer in any of Tolkien's works. Any theory welcome.

gate7ole

09-17-2002, 02:22 PM

For your questions ithrynluin, I can only speculate.
First the ship that bore the Ring-bearers could not have stopped in Tol Eressea. There were others too on that boat (like Gandalf or Elrond) that would probably want to go to Valinor. So the question is whether they stopped for a while at Tol Eressea and leave the Ring-Bearers (and mortals) there. From the little we know about Aman, there was no ban for those living to Tol Eressea. At the Lonely Island lived only some Teleri for love of the seas and Noldor who after the flight of their ancestors they didn't want to stay at Tirion or Formenos any more. But they could return to Valinor if this was their desire. Maybe, this is the rule for the Ring bearers and Gimli. As for Legolas he was not mortal, so there can be no restriction to him.
The ban on Galadriel is a different issue and we are said some things in UT. Even Christopher Tolkien was a bit confused about it, since there are some contradictions in his father's work. The most probable is that Galadriel (being the only elf left in ME who had seen the light of the Trees), didn't return to Aman after the Last Alliance, because of her pride (or of her love to Celeborn). The ban may not literary mean that the Valar forbade her to return, but that SHE forbade herself to do so.

That's all my opinion and probably others will come with proof.

Lhunithiliel

09-17-2002, 06:03 PM

I posted this question in The Silmarillion forum but it wasn't answered adequately

Would you kindly NOT forget the name of this thread?
I specifically asked to check if the questions have or haven't been asked before, even not ONLY in TTF!
Let's save some space as well as the time of the Masters.

Both the last questions have been already discussed. You just have to look for where in this forum or/and in other Tolkien-related sites you can find the answers.:confused: :)

I am looking forward to new NEVER ASKED questions.
Let's make the Masters sweat!:D

Elfarmari

09-17-2002, 10:04 PM

I do not think this has been asked before, but if someone has seen it, please let me know. How was Luthien able to enchant Melkor but fainted before Sauron? When Sauron comes out of his fortress in the shape of a werewolf, Luthien faints, after managing to make Sauron somewhat sleepy, allowing Huan to start his fight. Before Melkor, Luthien is revealed as herself, but still manages to postpone her capture enough to sing her song, felling every being in the chamber, including Melkor.

Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate that was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.....
So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him.
Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him.k Shere the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Mar, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. . . . . when they approached he [Carcharoth] denied them entry, and bade them stand; and he drew near with menace, scenting somehting strange in th air about them. But suddenly some power, descended fro of old from dvince race, possessed Luthien, and casting back herfoul raiment she stood orth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saing: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into the dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him. . . . For they came to the seatof Moroth in his nethermot hall, that was upheld by horror, lit by fire, and filled with weapons of death and torment. THere Beren slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne; but Luthien was stripped of her discguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. [B]SHe was not daunted by his eyes; and named her own name, and ffered her service to sing before him, after the maner of a minstrel. THen Morgoth looking pon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he ws hbeguiled byu his own malice, for he watchd her, leaving her free or a while, and taking secret pleasure in his thougt. THen sddenly she eluded his sight, nd out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listend perforce. . . . Then Luthien catching up her winged robe sprang into the air, and her voice came dropping down like rain into pools, profound and dark. She cast her cloak before his eyes, and set upon him a dream, dark as the Outer Void where once he walked alone. Suddenly he fell as a hill sliding in avalanche and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the doors of hell.

Lhunithiliel

09-18-2002, 06:34 AM

Now Sauron knew well, as did all in that land, the fate that was decreed for the hound of Valinor, and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.....
So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him.

Does this answer the question?
IMO, after all Sauron - the MIGHTIEST servant of Melkor, the one who had learned all the evil from his master and had developed it in his own way, the one that even the legendary Huan feared, could stand against the elven magic and defeat it.

My new question is about the Palantiri

We all know what they are and what they were used for. I was however always astonished by a small detail about the Palantir in Osgilliath. This stone was the one that had connection with all the other 6 stones.
Now, from the point of view of our PRESENT days, doesn't the configuration of the 7 stones and their function STIKINGLY resemble the configuration of a modern-technology-possible video conference?

Taking into consideration the years when Tolkien lived and wrote, how did he ever come to this idea?

gate7ole

09-18-2002, 09:05 PM

It is not actually a question, it is more of a techonogical observation, and a good one indeed.
You mean that Tolkien acted like a Jules Vern. Tolkien preceeds the technology of video conference by many decades. It is not likely that he had read any futuristic article on the subject, not being himself a fan of technology. I think he just thought of an impressive way for Dunedain to communicate. And it also solved later plot difficulties.
The most interesting aspect of the palantiri is, in my opinion, their ability to show things of the past and the future. We know they were made by Feanor and although he was a great craftsman, I don't think he had such knowledge to make these stones foresee. Maybe at first the palantiri could be used only for communications and as telescopes and then the Valar gave them more extraordinary capabilities. Or even the stone of Elostirion was the link between the other stones and Valinor from which all the prophecies where downloaded ;)

Mithlond

09-18-2002, 11:10 PM

Another interesting link with the Palantiri to modern times is the Television.

They both mean Far seeing.

Pretty cool considering televisions were not invented when Tolkien thought up the Palantiri.

Elfarmari

09-19-2002, 12:17 AM

I think Tolkien was working off a wish many people had. At his time, it was possible to transmit sound from one place to another, but it was impossible to transmit images. This could have been the inspiration Tolkien needed.

pohuist

09-19-2002, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Grond
I continue to look for definitive dates linking the Awakening and the Finding by Orome. :)

BTW, the quote that Grond gave is repated word for word in the Sil, so most people here should have known it.

pohuist

09-19-2002, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I posted this question in The Silmarillion forum but it wasn't answered adequately.So I would like my fellow Tolkienologists to ponder about it;)
It is more a series of minor questions than one great question.
Alright.What do you think,where did the ship that bore the Ring-bearers go? To Eressea or Valinor? I always wondered about that. What about Gimli and Legolas? Were these "special" mortals allowed only to Eressea or to Valinor also?
After the War of Wrath,the Ban of the Valar was lifted from the Noldorin elves,yet it remained upon Galadriel because she refused to return to Aman - I find this extremely illogical;why keep the Ban just because she had not the desire to return?Did the Valar forbid the free choice of the Firstborn?Were they just a bit hypocritical and arrogant?

Just for the record: The ring bearers, at least, went to Tol Eressea. I don't think there is a specific mention on Gimli's destination anywhere.
Galadriel didn't return because of pride -- she didn't want to admit she was wrong. Also, she was still able to have her kingdom in ME and wasn't yet weary of that world.

Lhunithiliel

09-19-2002, 09:23 AM

Here goes some research I have done.
The following quotes (Maedhros would be proud of me!) show how the Palantir worked :

> as a monitor
> as a video camera
> as a video-recorder…

From LOTR:
--------------------------------
Pippin ………. drew his cloak aside and gazed at it. The air seemed still and tense about him. At first the globe was dark, black as jet, with the moonlight gleaming on its surface. Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it, and it held his eyes, so that now he could not look away. Soon all the inside seemed on fire; the ball was spinning, or the lights within were revolving. Suddenly the lights went out. He gave a gasp and struggled; but he remained bent, clasping the ball with both hands. Closer and closer he bent, and then became rigid; his lips moved soundlessly for a while. Then with a strangled cry he fell back and lay still….

In a low hesitating voice Pippin began again, and slowly his words grew clearer and stronger. 'I saw a dark sky, and tall battlements,' he said. 'And tiny stars. It seemed very far away and long ago, yet hard and clear. Then the stars went in and out-they were cut off by things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling round the tower. I thought there were nine of them. One began to fly straight towards me, getting bigger and bigger. It had a horrible – no, no! I can't say.
------------------------------------

From the RotK:
------------------------------------
Then suddenly Denethor laughed. He stood up tall and proud again, and stepping swiftly back to the table he lifted from it the pillow on which his head had lain. Then coming to the doorway he drew aside the covering, and lo! he had between his hands a palantír. And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible. His eyes glittered….

‘Pride and despair!’ he cried. ‘Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. For thy hope is but ignorance…
Then Denethor leaped upon the table, and standing there wreathed in fire and smoke he took up the staff of his stewardship that lay at his feet and broke it on his knee. Casting the pieces into the blaze he bowed and laid himself on the table, clasping the palantír with both hands upon his breast. And it was said that ever after, if any man looked in that Stone, unless he had a great strength of will to turn it to other purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering in flame.
----------------------------------
I will continue the research.
How about you?:p

Lhunithiliel

09-19-2002, 12:44 PM

And here is some more:

From the UT – “Palantiri”

MUCH is said there, but referring to my question, here are some small extracts :
(the rest of the information is very essential too, but it of course should not be quoted here, as the text would be very long)

> They were perfect spheres, appearing when at rest to be made of solid glass or crystal deep black in hue..
> They were very heavy but per-fectly smooth, and would suffer no damage if by accident or malice they were unseated and rolled off their tables
>Though without any external markings of any kind they had permanent poles, and were originally so placed in their sites that they stood "upright:" their diameters from pole to pole pointed to the earth's centre, but the permanent nether pole must then be at the bottom. The faces along the circumference in this po-sition were the viewing faces, receiving the visions from the out-side, but transmitting them to the eye of a "surveyor" upon the far side…. But the minor Stones, those of Orthanc, Ithil, and Anor, and probably Annúminas, had also fixed orientation in their original situa-tion, so that (for example) their west face would only look west and turned in other directions was blank.
> Only the surveyor using the Master Stone of Osgiliath could "eavesdrop." While two of the other Stones were in re-sponse, the third would find them both blank.
> Alone the palantíri could only "see:" they did not transmit sound. Ungoverned by a directing mind they were wayward, and their "visions" were (apparently at least) haphazard
>The vision of the palantíri was not "blinded" or "occluded" by physical obstacles, but only by darkness
> A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to concentrate on some point, on or near its direct line

This, together with all the other explanations surprise me more and more! These things are ahead not only of the time of their creator but also of our modern times....

pohuist

09-19-2002, 08:26 PM

OK, I have two.

The first one is probably for Grond: can you list all books written by Tolikien (no companions, guides etc) regarding M-E and the elder days. I believe the Sil ends with the First Age, while the Hobbit and LOTR pick it up almost at the end of the Third. There are certain stories here and there in UT, and LOTR Appendices but what will be better to read about Second and Third Ages.

The second is for everybody - the Sil doesn't have much information on who/what Ungoliant was and what hapenned to her. Any other books offer a clue?

Nóm

09-19-2002, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Walter

PS: Lhunithiliel finding - and giving - quotes very fast is no problem if you have the texts accessible electronically. One can be rather ignorant - like myself - and still appear pretty "full of knowledge" with the right tools...

LOL..sorry Walter, but quoting things from the book does not make someone look full of knowledge...:p

Grond

09-19-2002, 08:49 PM

Okay... here goes
Written and published in his lifetime by J. R. R. Tolkien
1) The Hobbit
2) The Lord of the Rings
3) The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

Written by J. R. R. T. and edited by C. T. Published posthumously
The Silmarillion

Written by J. R. R. T. with commentary and editing by C. T. Published posthumously
Unfinished Tales
HoMe I - XII

Well, despite Walter's post, I didn't look on the web for the answers.

gate7ole

09-19-2002, 10:31 PM

Ok, here’s what I’ve found about Ungoliand:

From the sil we don’t get much info

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

There is though some important passage in HOME I:

For here dwelt the primeval spirit Moru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more she has always been.

It seems that Ungoliant was at first a spirit (Maia or another natural spirit) which entered Ea afterwards when Melkor started the first war with the other Ainur. She was corrupted by him like other Maia (Balrogs, Sauron). She probably took the form of a spider and lusted for light. She was then bred by of the darkness that existed in the world before the making of the Trees and afterwards she lived by sucking their light.

pohuist

09-19-2002, 10:42 PM

See, that's my problem. Its kind of hard for me to believe that she was a Maia -- she almost killed Melkor, the most powerful Vala, but for the host of Bakrogs that came to his rescue and drove her away. On the other hand, Tolkien does not write about any other spirits besides the Valar and the Maiar. (people still speculate on the nature of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry)

gate7ole

09-19-2002, 11:19 PM

Well, Ungoliant tried to kill Melkor (though I doubt that he can be killed-he is immortal), because Melkor was spent at that time, while Ungoliant having devoured all this light became more powerful and would beat even Melkor

Grond

09-19-2002, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by pohuist
See, that's my problem. Its kind of hard for me to believe that she was a Maia -- she almost killed Melkor, the most powerful Vala, but for the host of Bakrogs that came to his rescue and drove her away. On the other hand, Tolkien does not write about any other spirits besides the Valar and the Maiar. (people still speculate on the nature of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry) from The Silmarillion, The Ainulindale
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.Notice that here it says "among them many of the greatest and most fair". There were still many powerful Ainur who remained with Eru in the Void. I have always speculated that Ungoliant was a late-comer Ainu who was of great Power. She clove to the Darkness as her nature must have been akin to Melkor and surely she would have sung in his discord of the Music.

When they destroyed the Two Trees and stole the Silmarils, Ungoliant was fed the Jewels of Formenos and this only added to her strength. from The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor
'Not so much,' said Ungoliant. 'But thou hast a great treasure from Formenos; I will have all that. yea, with both hands thou shalt give it.'

Then perforce Morgoth surrendered to her the gems that he bore with him, one by one and grudgingly; and she devoured them, and their beauty perished from the world. huger and darker yet grew Ungoliant, but her lust was unsated. 'With one hand thou givest,' she said; 'with the left only. Open thy right hand.'It was only when Ungoliant tried to force Melkor to give up the Silmarils that he decided to fight her and summoned his Balrogs to him.

Melian Le Fay

09-19-2002, 11:51 PM

I don't know if this Q has already been answered, but here it is:

In LOTR (ROTK, I think) the writer mantiones " The children of Nimrodel"
And at the end of The Sil (index of names) Nimrodel, the Lady of the White Cave is also mentioned. Who was she, and why were her offsprings so special (Legolas, I think, notices he could see the warriors who came to the battle of Minas Tirith had her blood...)
Does anyone know the answer?

pohuist

09-20-2002, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Grond
Notice that here it says "among them many of the greatest and most fair". There were still many powerful Ainur who remained with Eru in the Void. I have always speculated that Ungoliant was a late-comer Ainu who was of great Power. She clove to the Darkness as her nature must have been akin to Melkor and surely she would have sung in his discord of the Music.
Thanks, Grond, that actually does make a lot of sence and seems very plausible to me.

It was only when Ungoliant tried to force Melkor to give up the Silmarils that he decided to fight her and summoned his Balrogs to him.
I think your recollection is slightly off(does not change much though). AFAR Melkor became afraid of her, but still refused to give away Silmarils whereas she started to fight him. My understanding of the passage that follows is that when she bound him with stinging cords, he couldn't cut them and gave a cry of pain and fear (as opposed to summoning Balrogs). Incidentally, quite a few Balrogs, still lurked in Angband, they heard it and came to his aid.

Now, the Sil says
Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.
Can an Ainu be famished? (Gandalf & Co. do not count, they were intentionally made susceptible to weaknesses of men).

gate7ole

09-20-2002, 02:45 AM

Millena,

There is a chapter (of ten pages) titled “Amroth and Nimrodel” in Unfinished Tales. It gives much info on the subject you ask. Briefly:
Amroth was an elven king of Lorien before Galadriel and Celeborn became lord and lady respectively. He loved Nimrodel but she wanted to be taken to a more peaceful land. So Amroth decided to take her to the havens and travel to the West. But they were separated on the way and Amroth went to the havens and built a port in Dol Amroth waiting for her. When his ship sailed without Nimrodel he jumped in the sea and was lost forever. The fate of Nimrodel is unknown.
As for your specific question, Prince Imrahil had origins from the line of Nimrodel which makes him (and his kin) great warriors as shown in UT again:
In summary:

Angelimar was the twentieth in unbroken descent from Galador, first Lord of Dol Amroth who was the son of Imrazór and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. From then it was ever held that the house and kin of the Lords of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind.

Lhunithiliel

09-20-2002, 06:26 AM

ORDER!!!

I would like to ask all who post in this thread to keep some order!:mad:

A question asked by someone must be FIRST answered or the asker - directed to where to look for an answer, and ONLY then a new question should be put forward!
Untill now TWO of my own questions stay unanswered nor had I been given any advice of where to look for some information.:mad: :mad:

Other questions have been also asked and hardly the discussion on them had started when someone else interrupted it with another question!

So, PLEASE, BE PATIENT!
The questions asked here are interesting and everybody will learn a lot if they let answeres to be provided!

AND DON'T YOU FORGET!
DON'T ASK QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN ASKED BEFORE!
CHECK BEFORE YOU ASK!:mad:

Grond

09-20-2002, 03:32 PM

Lhunithiliel, why don't you do a recap of the questions which have yet to be satisfactorily answered. As for questions that have already been asked, we'll need a referee in here to stop those. And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here. ;)

pohuist

09-20-2002, 08:23 PM

Walter,

You can pick on me any time you like (I understand that I am not even close as formidable oponnent as Grond, but I'll do my best):)

Oh, and while Lhunithiliel organizes, why do you folks think that majority (IMO) of the the most learned members of this forum (Grond, Ancalagon, Gothmog and [banned] Ulairi to name just a few) chose a name that represents evil. Is evil 'mightier still' as Gandalf said?

Lhunithiliel

09-20-2002, 09:40 PM

Grond:
Lhunithiliel, why don't you do a recap of the questions which have yet to be satisfactorily answered. As for questions that have already been asked, we'll need a referee in here to stop those.
Well, Master Grond, I am trying....I am TRYING!!!:D
Now, I really DO NOT object to everyone asking questions, but we need answers and opinions and research ... What's the use of asking a question if you can't get a decent opinion from the others?

Take for example my question about the Palantiri - we got an opinion by Walter (Thanks, smily! :) ) and I have done some research in the books.... But all this does NOT answer the question "How did Tolkien come up to the idea of the Pal. if these devices seem ahead of our modern days even?" If nothing is known on the issue, then some of you, Experts and Masters, just tell me to ...... find myself another thing to ponder on!

And the same thing was with the Argonath-statutes. Our Elf friend Confusticated has offered some research, for which I thank her very much, but the question included "... for what particular purpose?" ... Noone has so far said anything further on this.

Then the question of gate7ole has not even been noticed!

Here are the neglected questions :(
------------------------------------------
Grond: And I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week... so I won't be here
Anc and Walter, NOW IS THE TIME! ;) :D :D

Kidding, Master! The Guildmembers will be an-guard! Don't you worry and send us post cards! :p

Lhunithiliel

09-23-2002, 09:52 PM

No new answers to the old questions.:(

Then how about a new question here:
Nor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor thetowers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rum that is greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gwareth in the kindred of the Gnomes;

"The Fall of Gondolin", LT
Could someone tell me smth. more about the towns listed in the above quote? Where can some information be found about them and of what happened to them?:confused:

Lhunithiliel

09-28-2002, 07:44 AM

WHERE ARE THE WISE?[/
No answers lately, nor even new questions!
EXPERTS and MASTERS do you think our questions do not deserve being answered?
Pity! For I have a list of very interesting questions! But if there is noone to answer.....? :confused:

Mithlond

09-28-2002, 03:44 PM

Sorry Lhunithiliel, i dont have an answer to your question posted above, but i would like to post a question that has bugged me for quite a long time.

Did Cirdan awake at Cuiviénen??
I cant find anything in the silm or HoMe that directly states that he did, yet it seems to me that its highly possible that he did.

We know he was Lord of the Falas during the early first age, and that he was part of the group of Teleri that had heard the summons of Ulmo too late, and came to the shores of Beleriand in hopes to go to Valinor to be with Ingwe, Finwe and the rest of their people, but were persuaded to stay by Osse.

We also know that Feanor was the first second generation Elf.

So...was the beginning of Cirdan beside that great lake, or not?

Maedhros

09-28-2002, 04:36 PM

Are these the questions:
Did Cirdan awake at Cuiviénen??
I think it's more probable that he didn't awoke at Cuiviénen .See Quendi and Eldar in War of the Jewels. They were only 144 elves with their mates.
"How did Tolkien come up to the idea of the Pal. if these devices seem ahead of our modern days even?" If nothing is known on the issue, then some of you, Experts and Masters, just tell me to ...... find myself another thing to ponder on!
The idea of the Palantíri. I don't know what you mean. I would say that Fëanor got it from the eagles of Manwë, but I think that you know that already.
for which I thank her very much, but the question included "... for what particular purpose?" ... Noone has so far said anything further on this.
I haven't researched it so I don't know. yet.;)
Could someone tell me smth. more about the towns listed in the above quote? Where can some information be found about them and of what happened to them?
You can find more info in the Book of Lost Tales II
Bablon 'was a city of Men, and more rightly Babylon, but such is the Gnomes' name as they now shape it, and they got it from Men aforetime.'
Bablon, Ninwi, Trui, Rûm The original text of Tuor A had Babylon, Nineveh, Troy, and (probably) Rome. These were changed to the forms given in the text, except Nineveh > Ninwë, changed to Ninwi in Tuor B.

Lhunithiliel

09-28-2002, 04:55 PM

Thank you, Maedhros!
As for my "Palantiri"-question - I meant how TOLKIEN had come up to the idea of these devices if they were definitely out of his time and seem a bit out of OUR time even. What? Did he have a "time-machine", or...?
As for the towns, I suspected about Rome, Babylon and the ancient Troya, but what about Ninwi - which ancient town would this be?
Any ideas?... Besides, I think that the events in ME as described, happened LONG BEFORE the existance of Babylon, Troya and Rome(!).
Strange, Ah?
--------------------
Meanwhile, here is another question, since it may be considered that all the above have been already answered by our good Maedhros the Tall.

QUESTION?
The symbol of Gondor were the seven stars and a white tree.
The seven stars are said to be the seven Palantiri, brought to ME by seven of the 9 ships that escaped the Fall of Numenor.
As for the tree – I understand its spiritual importance to be used as a symbol. But the Palantiri were just clever devices. Why were they so important as to put them in the symbol, also taking in consideration that their use and importance had long ago faded at the time Minas Tirith was the strong capital of Gondor?

Dwimmerlaik

09-28-2002, 08:21 PM

Dear Lhunithiliel,
I think your last question could be boiled down to question's of heraldry.
As you point out,the seven star's are representation's of the palantir,and the white tree is the remnant of Numenor(and it's tree a remnant of Telperion).
It is possible that these two symbol's could also be representation's of the orb and sceptre.The orb being the white tree and thus the kingdom,and the sceptre being the seven star's signifying the kingdom's governance.
Heraldric devices were a means of conveying the bearer's identity,each part of the device signifying the owner's history,claim and position.Most royal coat's of arm's these day's are not understood by the casual observer(though they are still valid nevertheless),should it be any wonder then that when the palantir left the common memory of the people of Gondor,the star's remained?

Lhunithiliel

09-29-2002, 06:50 AM

Dear Dwimmerlaik, thank you kindly for your answer! Very interesting!
You know, in your answer I found a strange fact - about the orb .
At first, I didn't know the meaning of the word so I looked it up in my dictionary. I somehow never imagined that the western kings too held orbs. I know for sure our kings from the ancient glorious times of our history (:( ) did, but the kings from the West......?
--------
Now, my new question to ALL who might know:

QUESTION?
What is it about the number “7” that is so often present in the tales and the stories about Gondolin ?
From: "The Silmarillion:"Then Tuor looked down upon …… Gondolin the great, city of SEVEN names,
From: UT:
And one day, as Tuor sat upon the shore, he heard the rush and whine of great wings, and he looked up and saw SEVEN white swans flying in a swift wedge southward.
…… and he took the SEVEN feathers(of the swans) and set them in the crest of his helm……

Now Tuor journeyed south along the coast for full SEVEN days……

Voronwe: I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour SEVEN years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South……

"Yea, indeed," said Voronwë; "to a stranger it might seen that pride has made the servants of Turgon pitiless. Long and hard seem the leagues of the SEVEN Gates to the hungry an wayworn."

SEVEN great pillars of steel there were, tall with the height and girth of strong young trees, but ending in a bitter spike that rose to the sharpness of a needle; and between the pillars were SEVEN cross-bars of steel, and in each space SEVEN times SEVEN rods of steel upright, with heads like the broad blades of spears……..

…. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the SEVEN kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.

From "The Fall of Gondolin", LT:
And Ilfiniol was fain of that, but said he: 'It is amighty tale, and SEVEN times shall folk fare to the Tale-fire ere it be rightly told;

But now the men of Melko have assembled their forces, and
SEVEN dragons of fire are come with Orcs …….

Then said Idril: "Woe is me whose father awaiteth doom evenupon his topmost pinnacle; but SEVEN times woe whose lord hath gone down before Melko and will stride home no more!" ……

Now the Mountains or rather their lowest hills were on that side SEVEN leagues save a mile from Gondolin, …….

Of the wolfriders there were a score, and of the men that were about Earendel but six living = 7

Grond

09-29-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
QUESTION?
The symbol of Gondor were the seven stars and a white tree.
The seven stars are said to be the seven Palantiri, brought to ME by seven of the 9 ships that escaped the Fall of Numenor.
As for the tree – I understand its spiritual importance to be used as a symbol. But the Palantiri were just clever devices. Why were they so important as to put them in the symbol, also taking in consideration that their use and importance had long ago faded at the time Minas Tirith was the strong capital of Gondor? The symbol of Gondor during the rule of the Steward's did not include the Palantiri nor the Crown. The banner of the Kingless Gondor was simply a white tree on a field of sable. Only with the return of Aragorn to the Kingship was the King's banner restored. It had a Crown for the King, and both the White Tree and the Palantiri (both gifts from the Eldar to the Faithful) to remind them of their kinship to the People of Valinor and Tol Eressea.

Melian Le Fay

09-29-2002, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Thank you, Maedhros!
As for my "Palantiri"-question - I meant how TOLKIEN had come up to the idea of these devices if they were definitely out of his time and seem a bit out of OUR time even. What? Did he have a "time-machine", or...?
As for the towns, I suspected about Rome, Babylon and the ancient Troya, but what about Ninwi - which ancient town would this be?
Any ideas?... Besides, I think that the events in ME as described, happened LONG BEFORE the existance of Babylon, Troya and Rome(!).
Strange, Ah?

I think Ninwi is named after the city of Niniwa in ancient Maesopotamia (just like Babylon)....
It is interesting to think that that the events in ME happened long time before "our history"... but the men in LOTR and Sil, etc. look like they're from Medieval age...that, and the level of their technology... And Medieval age was AFTER our ancient history, so...
I think tolkien only "used" these parts of our history as something to write after... I don't think he ment to put the events chronologically before our "known" history...
But i thought like you, too... that he explained how the Elves and Dwarves and Hobbits dissapeared... That's a "Romantic" thought...

Melian Le Fay

09-29-2002, 09:17 PM

I have a Q related to the Debate between Maedros and Gothmog... I havent read everything yet, though I find it very interesting, since this same question bothered me for a while.... In ROTK, Tolkien refers to Elladan and Elrohir as "two men"... What's your opinion on this?
Of course, this question is for everyone!
p.s. How was your holiday? Any photos....?:D

Grond

09-29-2002, 09:32 PM

Please don't cite something from the book as a quote and not provide the quote. I don't doubt that it refers to them as "two men" but need you to point it out to me. (In other words, I'm too lazy to look it up.)

Melian Le Fay

09-29-2002, 11:21 PM

hmm...itsy-bitsy problem : my book isn't in English. I can try to translate it, but...
But my Q wasn't so important, I was just thinking about that debate, and how Tolkien names them men.

gate7ole

10-01-2002, 09:30 PM

I read in HOME IV that after the War of Wrath, only two of Morgoth’s dragons escaped from the destruction of Thangorodrim. But then, we read that during the TA, the Ered Mithrin (Grey Mountains) were infested by cold-drakes and the dwarves were driven to the Iron Hills. And we have two individual dragons in the stories (Scatha and Smaug).
Is this number of 2 only surviving dragons an inconsistence of Tolkien’s work, or did I miss something and there were other dragon (e.g bred by Sauron)?

Lhunithiliel

10-18-2002, 08:02 AM

Fate7ole, what shall we do? NOBODY is responding to our questions!:(

And here is another on my part:

Isildur was always blamed that for his pride and ambitions he did not cast the Ring into fire to destroy and that he wanted it for himself.
But here what I've found:
Elendur went to his father, who was standing dark and alone, as if lost in thought. "Atarinya," he said, "what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?"
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. 23 And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

"My King," said Elendur, "Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counsellor must advise nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!"

Which shows that Isildur went from Osgilliath not just to his kingdom, but through the most direct possible way- to Rivendale in order to leave the Ring with the High Elves!
:confused: :rolleyes:

If there is no answer here, then I'll probably open a thread.;)

Ponte

10-20-2002, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel

Which shows that Isildur went from Osgilliath not just to his kingdom, but through the most direct possible way- to Rivendale in order to leave the Ring with the High Elves!
:confused: :rolleyes:

Isildur went to Rivendell since his wife and youngest son where there and since he was in need of the counsels of Elrond.

Grond

10-20-2002, 03:49 PM

Lhun, please be so kind as to cite the source of your quote on Elendur and Isildur. I have not run across it or if I did, it did not register. That is one of the most telling bits of information I've seen in years and casts in doubt other writings of the author that speak of no Man willingly giving up the One when once obtained. There is only one example of anyone ever giving up the One voluntarily and that was Bilbo... and Gandalf almost had to force him to leave it.

Ponte

10-20-2002, 03:54 PM

That quote is from UT, the disaster of the Gladden fields if I'm not misstaken.

Yepp, it's page 273-74.

Lhunithiliel

10-20-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Buu
That quote is from UT, the disaster of the Gladden fields if I'm not misstaken.

Yepp, it's page 273-74.
That's right. It is as Buu says.
Then, Buu, why do you seem surprised?

As I have lost hope that someone would ever see my question here, I opened a thread on the same topic. And the discussion has already started! If you prefer, you may join us there:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6809
/Did I do the link?/

Ponte

10-20-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
That's right. It is as Buu says.
Then, Buu, why do you seem surprised?

What do you mean about me being surprised? :confused:

Lhunithiliel

10-21-2002, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Buu
Isildur went to Rivendell since his wife and youngest son where there and since he was in need of the counsels of Elrond.
What do you think he need the counsels of Elrond for?
Besides, the whole story the above quote comes out from gives "food" for thought over Isildur's fault for having not destroyed the ring.

Ponte

10-21-2002, 10:52 AM

I have started to realize what you're saying now.

Lhunithiliel

10-21-2002, 10:26 PM

Since I made a separate thread out of my last question, I would like to ask for a piece of advice for sth. new.
Where can I find MORE detailed information about Aragorn's people - the Dunedains?

Lhunithiliel

10-23-2002, 06:30 AM

Oh, Plelase! Don't even bother to answer! :mad:
I have allready found what I was looking for. ;) :p

Lhunithiliel

10-23-2002, 01:50 PM

Please, laugh not, dear Walter, but I did not know that the Dunedains were = the men from the West = the Numenoreans! :o :o

Thank you very much for your help, though!
You know, I can't understand how to work with the Wili site!
Can you please PM me?
Thanks!
Lhun

Lhunithiliel

10-24-2002, 09:50 PM

I was strongly wondering on where to post this question.
Finally, I decided it IS a "never asked question" and its place belongs in this thread.
Here is the QUESTION:

Taking into consideration that Melkor had often gone "out into the Void" and that AFTER he had returned he rebelled, then
What do you think, Melkor saw in the Void that provoked this specific music?
Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies that had been heard at first foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon the other in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged
Maybe this quote is not the most appropriate..... but I am sure all of us know quite a lot about how Melkor's music sounded.
So, what do you thin?
WHAT had he seen out there?

gate7ole

10-25-2002, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
WHAT had he seen out there?
I think that is simple. Nothing. The void was empty. There was no light, since the light of face of Iluvatar was not covering the dark places that Melkor visited. It is a possible reason for Melkor's change. Being too long in the dark, he conceived dark thoughts. Also, seeing the emptiness of the Void, he imagined creating life that would fill all this void. He started seeing himself as a God, dominated his creations.
Some times, seeing nothing is more dangerous than seeing something.

Lhunithiliel

10-25-2002, 06:42 AM

So, what you're saying is that "emptiness" created Melkor's tune.
I was thinking..... the "Void" - could we understand it as the Universe, or Space... at least I do so. But the Universe is the "workshop" for the creation of worlds. He could not but NOT see those processes - how a star is born out of gas and flames (I'm neither astronomer nor a physicist!)... So, I thought that the "rough" process of creation of new worlds is what Melkor saw in the Void and this sight is far from the picture of a heavanly paradise-looking place. Maybe this is why his music lacked finnesse and harmony...
......it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated, and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

gate7ole

10-25-2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Luthiniliel
how a star is born out of gas and flames
I believe that the cosmology of Arda explains the astronomical phenomena as actions from the Valar themselves. The Sun and the stars are not mythological figures (as for example in existing mythologies), but products of Varda, Yavanna etc. Thus we can reject any possibility of astronomical events in the Void. The Void is not the Space as regarded nowadays. Ilmen (the upper airs of Arda) is the most accurate correspondence to Space. So, I stick to the absolute emptiness of the Void. However nowhere is stated anything about it (e.g. any other worlds existing, what did the Valar who stayed with Iluvatar do) and this is another mystery of Tolkien’s world.

Lhunithiliel

10-25-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Walter
I imagine Tolkien's Void pretty much as I imagine Nirwana - un-imaginable....
Originally posted by gate7ole
I stick to the absolute emptiness of the Void.
Originally posted by gate7ole
......any other worlds existing
......Yeees! A mystery, isn't it!
Now, let's see....
1/ NIRVANA - the state of spiritual existance only. If our "friend" Melkor was not "bad" at the beginning but became such AFTER being out in the Void = in the realms of the Nirvana spaces, then wasn't the only thing he could se there perfection of the soul and mind?
Then, his music must not have been the result of this perfection! It just cannot be!
2/ absolute emptiness - then if there was NOTHING there, what could have caused his tune
3/ another existing world - wat was it like....Can you imagine? Or is there any comment by any of the two Tolkien on the matter? I have read sth. ..... somewhere...... that Tolkien liked to contemplate over "other existing worlds" and that he wrote LOTR (if I'm not mistaken) as a travel in time, while a friend of his ... that Lews - wrote about "travel in space"... I still have to find more information on that.....though don't know exactly where to look for it...

Anyway, back to the topic, Melkor's music , IMHO, is felt to have been provoked by sth. he experienced in the Void. I'm looking for a "straw" of evidence that the feeling one gets while reading those particular lines has its origins.

gate7ole

10-25-2002, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
2/ absolute emptiness - then if there was NOTHING there, what could have caused his tune
The tune was not caused by sth outside but by sth inside Melkor. Most times the most terrible thoughts come from within ourselves. As I said before, the lack of Light twisted Melkor's soul. There is where I place the change of Melkor.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I have read sth. ..... somewhere...... that Tolkien liked to contemplate over "other existing worlds" and that he wrote LOTR (if I'm not mistaken) as a travel in time, while a friend of his ... that Lews - wrote about "travel in space"... I still have to find more information on that.....though don't know exactly where to look for it...
The time-travel. You can find it in HOME V, and it is titled The Lost Road. Fascinating start but sadly stops just after the "landing" on Numenor. But I understood it is not as another existing world, but as the same world in a parallel future where Elves and Valar are forgotten and have become a myth

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Anyway, back to the topic, Melkor's music , IMHO, is felt to have been provoked by sth. he experienced in the Void. I'm looking for a "straw" of evidence that the feeling one gets while reading those particular lines has its origins. [/B]
Absolutely. We agree. He expririenced sth. But while you want to associate it with an outer experience, I prefer the inner. You seek for the literal, I for the spiritual. It probably means the same and our difference is non-trivial and has to do each one's respective.

Lhunithiliel

10-25-2002, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by gate7ole
Absolutely. We agree. He expririenced sth. But while you want to associate it with an outer experience, I prefer the inner. You seek for the literal, I for the spiritual. It probably means the same and our difference is non-trivial and has to do each one's respective.
What can I say....... I often wonder : if you don't perceive something, does it then exist? I believe it does and as it is there it is this material thing that causes perception, thoughts resp. ....
On the other hand, I have heard about some theories stating that it is our mind that "understands" a combination and a structure built of molecules as an "object", which means that there is actually nothing materially existing around us and only our mind feeds us with its own perceptions...
Can we call the first theory "external" and the second "inner/spiritual", gate7ole? ;)

Elenaelin

10-26-2002, 01:26 AM

What is the fate of the Elves? In Lost Tales I Tolkien states the fate of the Elves the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain or waste in grief I know that (unexact quote) 'After the Great End choirs of Men and Ainu shall sing, but the fate of the elves is not known' Do they just :eek: cease to exist?:eek: Feel quite free to slap me if this is an old old question :rolleyes:

gate7ole

10-26-2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Elenaelin
What is the fate of the Elves? In Lost Tales I Tolkien states the fate of the Elves I know that (unexact quote) 'After the Great End choirs of Men and Ainu shall sing, but the fate of the elves is not known' Do they just :eek: cease to exist?:eek: Feel quite free to slap me if this is an old old question :rolleyes:

Elenaelin, I advise you to join the Discussion thread of our guild:
Sil:Ainulindale (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=176011#post176011)
It is a bit long, but very interesting, and the subject you are referring is being discussed too.

Lhunithiliel

11-07-2002, 06:59 AM

Akallabeth, Silmarillion
And those that sailed far came only to the new lands, and found them like to the old lands, and subject to death. And those that sailed furthest set but a girdle about the Earth and returned weary at last to the place of their beginning; and they said: 'All roads are now bent.'
This is an interesting reference to the first trip around the whole planet! Can someone remind when the actual event took place in our world? :rolleyes:

...... Well, practically, I don't have a specific question..... I wish I could learn what the others think on this piece of information.....
I am so interested in it, because there are lots of facts in Tolkien world that can be compared to similar in other mythologies... but a few have their origin from the "real" world-history events, like this one.

Lhunithiliel

11-07-2002, 09:02 PM

Thank you, Walter, for saving me from my laziness! ;) :o
Interesting information!
Yo-ho-ho and a buttle of Rum... und dann hold Dich der Klabautermann
Well, the first part is OK...what about the second? I was never good at German language! :o :D

Mrs. Maggott

11-09-2002, 10:05 PM

Is this thread limited to FACTUAL questions or are more subjective questions permitted?

For instance, I wondered how many people felt as I did after reading the Silmarillion that the Valar bore quite a bit of the responsiblity for the depredations of Morgoth? After all, it has been quite a while since I read The Silmarillion, but I distinctly remember feeling after I read it that while Morgoth was stamping about the place ruining elves etc., the Valar were busy walling themselves in someplace nice (like the hobbits) so they wouldn't have to look at the damage!

Furthermore, when Morgoth rose again after they defeated him, it was THEIR fault that he was running loose again and it was only after the poor elves and men did their darndest - and failed - that the Valar got their act together and "rescued" what they had allowed to fall into danger in the first place! I read the book MANY years ago, but I still remember how unfair I thought it was that the Valar had allowed all this mayhem to take place when they should have shut Morgoth down from the get-go! Oh well, I was young then and maybe when I read it again with 61 years of life experience behind me, I'll feel differently!

However, if this thread is limited to more objective (rather than subjective) topics, I withdraw my question until a suitable thread comes along! :rolleyes:

Lhunithiliel

11-10-2002, 07:35 AM

Well, as for your "subjective" question I'd say that there are several threads discussing on this matter and the opinion vary from "Yes, the Valar were too careless and selfish..." to "No, the Valar just did their best to...".
But this thread was opened to ask questions on facts.... I guess. :)

Here is my new one:
It is well known that Sauron held the One Ring AND the NINE that controlled the Nazgul.
So, when the One was destroyed in the fires of Orodruin, the Nazgul perished too (very spactacularly, I'd say ;) ).
Does it mean that the NINE also disapeared materially........:confused:

Mrs. Maggott

11-10-2002, 02:45 PM

Certainly ALL the Rings were affected by the destruction of the one. Even the Three "failed" though they had never been corrupted by Sauron and were, in fact, not materially destroyed as was described in the Grey Havens chapter at the end of ROTK.

I would imagine that EVERY Ring of Power wrought in conjunction with the enemy either was destroyed or simply "failed" (like the Dwarf Rings perhaps?) with the destruction of the One. Indeed, in the case of the remaining Nazgul, it was probably the destruction of their RINGS that was visible to the eye since they had no material bodies.

However, I don't know if Tolkien defined this in any of his writings. Perhaps a more well read Guildsman will have the definitive answer.

Elfarmari

11-11-2002, 11:18 PM

I do not know of any mention by Tolkien of the fate of the rings, but have always assumed they became simple rings; with no power. If these rings were not fully emptied of their evil tendencies, could they still lead their finders to evil? I sense another rpg coming. . . ;)

Melian Le Fay

11-14-2002, 09:22 PM

Why do you believe (or was that just an idea?) that the rings weren't fully emptied of their evil tendencies....?
I'd really like to know that and enlarge my knollege, oh, Expert Tolkienologist!!!;) :D

Elenaelin

11-15-2002, 05:42 PM

I would side with the dissapearing materially thought. Not only were the Nine subject to the Ring, but in a sense they were sauron's creatures, which, after the battle, wandered aimlessly to die (there's a quote about that somewhere, sorry i am bookless at the current moment!) :eek:

Mrs. Maggott

11-15-2002, 06:09 PM

I think the remaining eight "went down in flames" at the destruction of the Ring while the orcs, trolls and other creatures of Sauron in the battle before the Black Gate lost all will to not only fight, but live as well - although Tolkien does not say (at least in LOTR) if ALL the orcs and trolls were stricken in the same way.

I have always wondered if some orcs survived and continued to live after Sauron's fall, if they might have "evolved" upward into sort of man-like beings capable of living fairly ordinary lives. After all, they weren't "created" by Morgoth, only corrupted by him. It may be that those who were furthest away from Sauron's direct influence might have lived on and without that constant pressure of evil, in due course of time become something else instead.

Somehow I always felt sorry for the orcs who were what they were through no fault of their own unlike others who CHOSE their path. I believe that is what Gandalf meant when he said that he felt sorry "even for his slaves".

Lhunithiliel

01-05-2003, 08:15 AM

I have a few questions ....again ( :D )

1/
From the ROTK:
The light was still grey as they rode, for the sun had not yet climbed over the black ridges of the Haunted Mountain before them. A dread fell on them, even as they passed between the lines of ancient stones and so came to the Dimholt. There under the gloom of black trees that not even Legolas could long endure they found a hollow place opening at the mountain’s root, and right in their path stood a single mighty stone like a finger of doom.
And so they came at last deep into the glen; and there stood a sheer wall of rock, and in the wall the Dark Door gaped before them like the mouth of night. Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour.
.....between which there faced the riders, the grim black wall of the Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain rising out of steep slopes of sombre pines. Dividing the upland into two there marched a double line of unshaped standing stones that dwindled into the dusk and vanished in the trees. Those who dared to follow that road came soon to the black Dimholt under Dwimorberg, and the menace of the pillar of stone, and the yawning shadow of the forbidden door.

Such was the dark Dunharrow, the work of long-forgotten men. Their name was lost and no song or legend remembered it. For what purpose they had made this place, as a town or secret temple or a tomb of kings, none could say. Here they laboured in the Dark Years, before ever a ship came to the western shores, or Gondor of the Dúnedain was built; and now they had vanished, and only the old Púkel-men were left, still sitting at the turnings of the road.
So, my question is: What to think of the Road and the Door - Were they made BEFORE the breaking of the oath ? - then For what purpose? .... or.... Were they made AFTER the breaking of the oath? ...then WHO made them? (for the purpose could be = warning)

2/
From the ROTK:
Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men, and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering.
So:
1) What "business" had the Dead with the Stone, which is obviously one of the Palantiri, brought from Numenor.
2) How, do you think, did Isildur manage to bring the enourmous Palantir to Erech? Looking at the maps and reading about the place... I just can't figure out how he could!
3) Why Erech?

3/
Maybe I shall have to wait for Walter to return. He might have some opinion on the next question as he comes from Germany.... :p But perhaps some of you, too could answer. I'll be most interested to learn your opinion on this:
I have noticed that on several occasions, the Professor expressed quantities using the "German way" of saying the numbers and not the English one.
For example:
five and fifty hundreds = German: "funf und funfzig" (don't laugh at my Deutch! :D) still it is NOT the English " fifty five hundred"
a hundred leagues and two ...
There are several other examples, but I just can't find them now.
Your comments?

4/
From ROTK:
Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’
Could someone, please, say what war exactly did Legolas mean?
As far as I remember, Lothlorien was not at war at that point. Yes, there were fell creatures that the Elven warriors chased out of the wood, but a WAR????

*****

Well, I will be very much obliged if some of you wish to comment on these questions.

FoolOfATook

01-05-2003, 09:29 AM

I can answer number four all but off the top of my head. In the Tale of the Years, for March 11, 3019 TA

First assault on Lorien

The second assault came on March 15, and a third on March 22, all from Dol Guldur. Part of the larger War of the Ring that we barely hear about in the text proper of LOTR.

Lhunithiliel

01-05-2003, 09:46 AM

Oh! I see! Thank you!
Yet, could you, please, remind me who at that moment was in Dol Guldur? I mean, the mightiest servants of Sauron were nearer Mordor, attending the seige and the coming hit against the chief town of Gondor. Right? Who was the "Captain" of Sauron at Dol Guldur then? The Nine were in Minas Morgul. Right? :confused: And if I'm not mistaken, the chief Nazgul was the WitchKing... I might be mistaken, though... I still find it hard to find my way with all those names....:rolleyes:

Well, and what about the other questions ? :)

gate7ole

01-05-2003, 07:51 PM

At the time of the War of the Ring, the Witch-King with six of the Ringwraiths dwelt at Minas Morgul. Khamûl, the second in command abode in Dol Guldur with one other as his messenger. When Sauron learned about the ring, he summoned all of them and started the Hunt of the Ring.
The above info is found in UT: The Hunt of the Ring.

Lhunithiliel

01-06-2003, 06:59 AM

.... which I know well enough ;) :D and that is precisely why I was thinking - Who in fact led the battles/war against Lothlorien, if they (the servants of Sauron) all had been already summoned at the gates of Minas Tirith?!

WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER QUESTIONS?????????????????

Lhunithiliel

01-16-2003, 07:28 AM

"Riddermark"
My dictionary does not give me any "Tolkien" explanation about the "MARK" of Rohan.

Could someone of you, please?

gate7ole

01-16-2003, 10:42 PM

UT-CIRION AND EORL
The term Mark signified a borderland, especially one serving as a defence of the inner lands of a realm. The Sindarin names Rohan for the Mark and Rohirrim for the people were devised first by Hallas, son and successor of Cirion, but were often used not only in Gondor but by the Éothéod themselves.

Lhunithiliel

01-17-2003, 06:28 AM

:o :o :o
Got me!
I must have not paid attention to this!
Thank you!

Lhunithiliel

01-18-2003, 07:11 PM

Thanks.....
I shouldn't probably ask.....but what is "Mercia"? :o :o

And Walter, would you look through the last "list" of questions that I posted a while back... There is one waiting especially for you ;)

Lhunithiliel

01-19-2003, 02:20 PM

Who needs an encyclopedia or/and a dictionary when we have a "Walter" ?! ;)

Thank you! I am IMPRESSED!!!!!

Lhunithiliel

01-24-2003, 07:25 AM

I'll try again to post a question. Let's see if it gets an answer.
I'm not saying that ALL the questions I post here are left without answers, but, there are quite some that HAVE been left unaswered.

OK.

Let's see if anyone could tell me

What happens to Rivendell and Lothlorien after resp. Elrond and Galadriel and their people lhave left them?
Were they completely deserted?

If I'm not mistaken, Rivendell and Lothlorien were the only elven strongholds not destroyed by any enemy. I also remember Arwen going to Lothlorien after Aragorn's death and even before that her brotehrs, who had not sailed to Eressea with their father but stayed in ME a while longer, I suppose, might have lived in Rivendell for a while... but after they left (although this is not mentioned anywhere, there are hints to it) Rivendell must have been completely deserted. Lothlorien, I mean the "tree-town" in particular - too. Otherwise, Arwen would probably live there and as far as it is described in the books, she just lived in the fair wood.

So? What happened to Rivendell and Lothlorien after the elves had left for the West?
********

And, I would wish to reming everyone -
This thread is NOT mine only!
Don't you, people have any questions?

Morgoth

01-24-2003, 10:01 AM

As there was no national trust in middle earth, the logical answer would be that they fell into decay, much like the Weathertop had. However, it is very difficult to imagine anything of elven craft decaying. So I would suggest that if something like the One Ring could be forgotten, so could Lothlorien and Rivendell. So my opinion is that it faded from all memory, and Eru, not wanting places so beautiful to be corrupted by the race of men, hid it from their sight.

Morgoth

01-24-2003, 10:33 AM

New questions.....
1. Did Eru forsee the downfall of Melkor, and the Failure of the Race of Men? Was Eru all-seeing like our christian god, or was he only as powerful as the Valar, as far as seeing into the future goes?
2. Was Melkor the most powerful of the Valar, as the Ainulindale would suggest? If he was, weren't the Edain and the Elves doomed from the start, by Eru's own creation?

Mrs. Maggott

01-24-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Morgoth
New questions.....
1. Did Eru forsee the downfall of Melkor, and the Failure of the Race of Men? Was Eru all-seeing like our christian god, or was he only as powerful as the Valar, as far as seeing into the future goes?
2. Was Melkor the most powerful of the Valar, as the Ainulindale would suggest? If he was, weren't the Edain and the Elves doomed from the start, by Eru's own creation?

First, a previous question: what happened to the elvish places after the departure of the elves? We are told that upon Arwen's death, the flowers of Cerin Amroth never bloomed again east of the Sea. I would think that these things faded and disappeared not as the ruins of men, but almost as etherial creations that fade into the mist. Since they had been maintained by the elvish rings of power, once those failed all that they had kept pristine and unspoilt simply ended, leaving nothing behind that anyone could see or recover; there were no "elvish" artifacts. Even the great trees of Lothlorien are no more upon earth so they too must have simply vanished (or changed in some other way) when the last traces of that which held them in place ceased to be.

Now to the above questions: speaking as an Orthodox Christian, a Church unchanged from the beginning of "the Church", I can say that theologically, it was always understood that as God embarked upon creation, He forsaw the Cross. In other words, nothing can "surprise" God who exists external to time and therefore sees all that did, does and will happen. The fact that He was willing to engage in creation notwithstanding, shows how great was His love. After all, He created all things in order not only to love them, but for them to love Him. For that to happen, He had to impart to his sentient beings - angels and men - free will since coerced love is no love at all. And with free will came the ability to reject God and to place one's love upon some other object.

Yes, Eru knew the results of His creation, including the Valar, but His desire to share His divine love was such that He was willing for all that happened to happen since the only way to prevent it was to forebear creation at all.

2. Melkor, like Lucifer, was the greatest of Eru's creation. He was given the greatest gifts and should therefore, have been Eru's most devout and loving son. And he had the opportunity to BE the greatest of all after Eru in creation but he chose rather to limit HIMSELF through his disobedience and pride. Thus also, did Lucifer fall. Not content with a greatness beyond all created by God, he wanted rather to replace God Himself something which even the least sentient being would know to be impossible. Both Melkor and Lucifer in their prelest chose to diminish their very being in an attempt to fulfill their desire for omnipotence. In that way, they became merely equals of Manwe and St. Michael rather than their superiors and eventually, deteriorated into inferior beings doomed to outer darkness together with their wretched followers.

Yes, sadly, once creation was underway, evil would influence all that came after. However, like Melkor and Lucifer, those who came into creation were free to choose evil or good. Thus, though the root cause of evil was beyond the ability of Eru's children to determine or avoid, they were still able to choose their allegiance to either side. Furthermore, those who chose wrongly by virtue of ignorance or some reason beyond their control would not be held as accountable as would those who did so in full recognition of the meaning of their choice. Hence, Saruman was far more blameworthy than some poor orc bred to his wretched state and unable to depart therefrom.

Sadly, only in the fullness of His own perfection could Eru/God insure that no evil would ever come into being. Once sentient beings with free will had been created, then the possibilty of the rejection of God - evil - was reality. And yet, without free will, the reality of love is not possible. Therefore, God's conundrum was this: exist alone in perfection or create other free beings and abide in imperfection. Fortunately for us, He made the second choice.

gate7ole

01-24-2003, 07:55 PM

LOTR, Prologue
There(at Rivendell), though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel.
LOTR, AppenticesBut after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.
I guess this answers Lhunithiliel’s questions about Rivendell and Lórien, as much as possible, since the Fourth Age isn’t mentioned in many places. But it seems that both had a sad future.

And Lhunithiliel, I always try to answer your questions. Those that I don’t answer are beyond my knowledge and I would have made matters worse if I posted. I guess the same happens to the others too.

Lhunithiliel

01-24-2003, 08:49 PM

For which I THANK YOU, gate7ole ;)

VERY MUCH!

gilgalad

01-26-2003, 10:45 AM

i've got two questions and i hope at least one of them will ber acceptable on this thread.
1: in the fellowship of the ring , at the flight to the ford, glorfindel shouts something in some form of elvish at his horse. the instruction(?) was noro lim, noro lim, asfaloth!
Can anyone give me a translation of this because im not very well aquainted with elvish (yet).
2: does anyone know if there is anymore information pertaining to the original Glorfindel (ie of gondolin) supplementary to that in the silmarillion?
yours without wax
gilgalad

gate7ole

01-26-2003, 03:22 PM

gilgalad, I don’t know the answer to the first question. It doesn’t seem to be Quenya (which I’m no learning). It is probably Sindarin.
About the second question, there is much talk about the two Glorfindels. If you want to read more, there is a passage dealing Glorfindel in HOME XII (Chapter Last Writings).

Lhunithiliel

01-27-2003, 07:24 AM

On page 7 here I had posted four question backed up with some quotes.
FoolOfATook and gate7ole and some other people mostly commented on only one of them.

I wonder whether some of you would be willing to discuss the others.

It may sound silly, but I am surprised very much with the way the big numbers are given in the books. As I noticed in that post (on p.7) it sounds more like in German. I understand that the Germanic languages had essential influence in the formation of the English language. Yet, I would be very much interested to learn what you think about all this.

And I am also very much intrigued by the Path of the Dead and the Door...

Well? :confused: :rolleyes:

Lhunithiliel

02-01-2003, 06:49 AM

I really don't know how to understand that my Guild-mates just don't have any questions to put forward...and it 's always me! :D
:o :o :o

Anyway, here I come again...

I know that there are some people here who love mathematics and statistics (which I don't). To them - my question:
Counting back from our year 2003 - When was the War of the Ring and the LOTR-events ? What time of the history of the "real" world could they coincide with?

gate7ole

02-02-2003, 01:02 AM

Ah, Lhunithiliel. Do you expect a tru answer to this question?
Actually Tolkien did say something abou the next Ages. He said:
1. The next Ages would last fewer years.
We can guess around 2000 each.
2. The Third Age was the last Age where a divine spirit would cause the troubles. From now on, people would have to deal with individuals that would assume all powers but would still be mortal.
That means we must search for such persons whose defeat would mean the end of each Age, since Tolkien always meant to finish his Ages with such events.
You can make these choices throughout history, but the best guess would be that only two Ages have passed and we're now at the beginning of the Sixth. That means that the WoR happened 4000 years ago.

Lhunithiliel

02-02-2003, 06:07 AM

See, Gate? You HAVE answered this question, no matter how stupid it was...:o :p
I have read opinions on this matter. Some say - the 5-th, others - 6-th Age....
So.....4000 years back.... Hm.... Interesting.....

THANKS as ever! :)
******

A new question:

The Council of Elron in Rivendel was summoned becuase there had come representatives of various races living in ME and fighting the common Enemy. It's interesting, of course, that they had come WITHOUT being particularly called, yet...

Why there were no representatives from Rohan? What do you think?

I mean, Rohan seems to have always had quite an essential strategic importance in the events in ME, including the War of the Ring . Yet, when the destiny of ME is being discussed - they are not there! Because I believe that even if the representatives of the free peoples of ME had come to Rivendel at one and the same time "by chance" , still there is some understanding , a hint that they had been actually called somehow. Then why Rohan had not been invited?

Beleg

02-04-2003, 05:35 PM

i think i read it somewhere that Tolkien estimated the ages to be round 3000 year old and we are in the seventh age. I think it was in an essay on a site which had the domain middle name TOlkien.
Anyway, I think Rohirrim weren't specifically called to the council. as you said that yourself that they had gathered there by-chance. I think Tolkien actually meant the story to flow in a way as not to involve rohirrim and indeed by the description of Gandalf and before the arrival of the trio to Rohan and Before Boromir's speech, i always thought to Rohan as a more-or-less-evil country.
And as Boromir pointed out, Rohirrim gave little head to other matters then that of their own country and they weren't openly at war against Sauron.
Even if they had been invited, two things might have had happened.

1. Grima, who afterwall was quite influential would have had persuaded the king to scorn the invitation and even Eomer wouldn't had persuaded Theodoen for he would have been weary of the elf's. The Rohirrim feared elves, (The Lady of golden Wood fiasco).

2. The rider might have been lost in the many peril's.

But i myself think that As it is clear that Elrond didn't send invitation to Boromir to come, he also might not have invited anyone from Rohan. For dwindling or Not Gondor was considered to be the major empire of Men and a representative from it would have been believed to be the ambasador of The whole South.

The hint Lhun about which you are talking about might be the constant threat of Sauron that would always be in the back of the mind of all free kingdom. So as Tolkien has mentioned in more then one places that Elrond was considered wise among men and elf and even at that time elves were the symbol's of wisdom and as the gates of Lorien were shut and Rivendell was the only elvish fortress within reach of the Empires of third earth, they thought it the logical place to gather and converse about Sauron?

Mrs. Maggott

02-04-2003, 05:52 PM

"'You have done well to come,' said Elrond. 'You will hear today all that you need in order to understand the purposes of the Enemy.......'That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world."
"The Council of Elrond": FOTR/LOTR

Elrond "calls" none to him. Rather, he has made himself available by virtue of his years of laboring against Sauron for just such a time as those powers of "Good" see fit to make use of him. In this, we see Tolkien's "Christian" understanding of the refusal of self-will and acceptance of obedience to a "Higher Power" even though we might not understand that Power's designs. This same rejection of the individual will in favor of another's course - even though that course seems senseless (Aragorn choosing to follow Merry and Pippin rather than Frodo, Gandalf going into Moria after being warned by Aragorn that his doom awaits him there etc.) - is the sign of true good. On the other hand, insistence upon the individual's will in the face of every indication of disaster, is a sign that the character is pursuing evil, no matter what they might believe to the contrary (Denethor, Boromir etc.).

Much of Tolkien's work involves not so much rational decisions based upon cold hard fact, but exactly the opposite: apparently irrational decisions which fly in the face of both fact and accepted wisdom. The only thing is that these decisions (such as the decision to attempt to destroy the Ring) are based upon an effort to achieve the common good and not the desires of any one individual or race. It is only through this sublimation of the individual will for the good of the many that the "impossible" is eventually achieved.