Pillar of the Heavens

[Ancalagon]

Thrice only in each year the King spoke, offering prayer for the coming year at the Erukyermë in the first days of spring, praise of Eru Ilúvatar at the Erulaitalë in midsummeer, and thanksgiving to him at the Eruhantalë at the end of autumn. At these times the King ascended the mountain on foot followed by a great concourse of the people, clad in white and garlanded, but silent. At other times the people were free to climb to the summit alone or in company, but it is said that the silence was so great that even a stranger ignorant of Númenor and all its history, if he were transported thither, would not have dared to speak aloud. No bird ever came there, save only eagles. If anyone approached the summit, at once three eagles would appear and alight upon three rocks near to the western edge; but at the times of the Three Prayers they did not descend, remaining in the sky and hovering above the people They were called the Witnesses of Manwë, and they were believed to be sent by him from Aman to keep watch upon the Holy Mountain and upon all the land. Unfinished Tales

Why did Men, Secondborn of Iluvatars Children, lesser in stature, knowledge and gifts than Elves, seem closer to acknowledging Eru than their Eldar counterparts, who it seemed were more akin to the Valar than their creator?

Although there is a distinct lack of religion within Tolkiens work, we are left to wonder why Elves had no known festivals or thanksgiving arrangements such as those described in the quote!

Is the race of Men closer in thought to their creator?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Unfinished Tales

Why did Men, Secondborn of Iluvatars Children, lesser in stature, knowledge and gifts than Elves, seem closer to acknowledging Eru than their Eldar counterparts, who it seemed were more akin to the Valar than their creator?

Although there is a distinct lack of religion within Tolkiens work, we are left to wonder why Elves had no known festivals or thanksgiving arrangements such as those described in the quote!

Is the race of Men closer in thought to their creator?

I noticed that too.It seems strange doesn't it?:confused:
Elves sing songs of praise,but not to Eru but to the Valar - like Elbereth Gilthoniel,silivren penna miriel...etc
The ONLY connection I see is the following:

*Elves are closer to the Valar because both their destinies are bound within the world-the Valar must suffer or enjoy whatever Arda suffers/enjoys and the elves are "reborn" again in Arda,plus their "afterlife" (however brief it may be) is connected to the Valar - they are "taken care of" by Mandos in his Halls of Waiting.

*Men are closer to Iluvatar...well...when men perish their spirits go "somewhere" and that "somewhere" is not known either to the elves or the Valar.I would guess only Iluvatar knows that.

*Elves live in the very land of the gods,the Valar.They share each day with them,learn from them and also give back some knowledge and provide joy to the Valar,so their "relationship" is mutual.They have the freedom of choice,whether they are going to live in Aman or anywhere else in Arda,whereas men have no such choice - they are all alone in ME,left to fend for themselves,forbidden to enter the land of the immortal.I assume Eru makes up for that after they die,he gathers them around him in his Timeless halls.

Therefore I think that the race of Men IS closer to Iluvatar than the elves,but only in a specific way,which I cannot put into words.But undoubtedly both are equally dear to him.

Hope this makes sense:)

[Walter]

You know, I've been puzzling about that too for a while...

The answer I contented myself with, was: due to the very long lifespan of the Elves, they might achieve a different understanding of Ilúvatar, maybe as someone (or something) that they are part of and that is part of them (like the: "I am in God and God is in me"-Koan) and not like an external "being" with infinite powers (like it seems the belief of Men) that has to be worshipped...

Just my 2 (€)cents ;)

[Ancalagon]

I am not in total agreement Walter, but close;)

I feel that Men have a deep-seated need to acknowledge something, to worship a greater being is a release from the insignificance and unimportance they felt upon Arda. Man needs to worship something, Sauron the errant Maia, Melkor, even deities, rocks, etc. Why is this? Is it insecurity, fear of the unknown, death?

Yet, in relation to Eru, it must be understood that Men could only offer worship based on the teachings gleaned from the Elves. So, faith and worship has its origin in the Eldar, yet they do not openly practice what they preach! They have an affinity with the Valar that seems to disregard Eru as provider, as the answer to their prayers. An example could be the call of Fingon, upon finding Maedhros; Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow. And seeing no better hope he cried to Manwë, saying: 'O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their need!' This in itself shows that direct petition to the Valar was both potent and acceptable. Where then does Eru fit into the equation? There are a number of occassions that include the Noldor as a whole petitioning/praying for release from the devastation of Melkor;When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwë their king. Who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come.
For Elves to seek the aid of the Valar, they can expect a result. But it seems clear that they seek direct response, and not the devine intervention of Eru, who then mobilises his servants, The Valar.

I find this interesting as it presents a further divide between Men and Elves and Valar and Men. Men, rarely have ever petitioned the Valar for aid, though most influential of those would be Earendil, but even he was of mixed race. Obviously the stronger Elven side chose to sail to Aman and not seek interjection from Eru directly, thus saving himself an arduous journey and an enternity sailing through the stratosphere!

I wonder then do Elves resent the fact that they are bound to Arda, lumped in with the Valar and resentful of Mens 'special' gift of death and departure from this planet. Then again, Men resent Elves immortality and bind to this planet, whereas they face a short existence and a journey of the soul, to only Eru know where? Death seems like a lottery for the race of Men, therefore they must seek to praise something, or someone who might then take heed of them as they roll of this mortal coil!

[Ceorl]

Umm I disagree with you all upon the grounds that the Elves in Valinor DO have a festival for the praising of Eru. It was at this time of festival that Morgoth and Ungoliant came to destroy the trees, and at this same time that Earendil arrived on the shores of Aman.

[Ceorl]

Hmm I will look for some evidence of Elves holding praises to Eru, and post it if I find it.

[Ancalagon]

Have you found it yet?

[Tar-Elenion]

Letter 156:
The High Elves were exiles from the Blessed Realm of the Gods (after their own particular Elvish fall) and they had no 'religion' (or religious practices, rather) for those had been in the hands of the gods, praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Ilúvatar the Father of All on the Mt. of Aman.

[Nenya Evenstar]

About which race is closer to the thought of Illuvatar:

I do not believe that the race of men would be closer to their creator. First of all, the elves had many dealings with the Valar as a whole and because of these dealings had undoubtedly learned much more than Men about Illuvatar. They know more about him, had seen more of the splendour of the music played before him in the beginnings of time, and had access to the first beings ever created by Illuvatar. These same beings (the Valar and Maia) instructed the elves themselves from what they learned of Illuvatar. I can only imagine that this would contribute to the elves being closer to the mind of Illuvatar than Men.

Men, were given that special gift: death. However, they did not use it according to Illuvatar's purposes and wishes as he knew that they would not. Men were unable to comprehend the greatness of such a gift after listening to the lies which were sown by Melkor in the beginning of days. Men were often a grief to Illuvatar because of the corruption of this gift. I know that this statement of death cannot be used to prove anything about men being closer to the thought of Illuvatar, but it can be used to strengthen that argument because of the grief that men brought to Illuvatar.


About Tar-Elenion's quote:
I notice that that qoute only mentions those elves who were exiled. What about the Vanyar and the Teleri? Did they worship Eru on their own and without the proddings of the Valar?

I hope that this made sense... it is very late, and I can barely think.

[lindil]

Tar Elenion's quote get's to the heart of the matter, but there is also this to consider. We do not get a full view of Elvish religious life! We see tiny bits at best.

[Ancalagon]

Hello Lindil, welcome to the forum.

Certainly we glimpse only that The Ainur, who resided in Aman, were likely to praise and acknowledge Eru, as creator. Yet, throughout all Tolkiens work there seems a deliberate lack of acknowledgement from the Elves, who in truth called upon Manwe or the Valar and sought either forgiveness or sustenance from them. The fact that the Race of Men were 'detatched' from both the Valar and Aman, seems to bolster the arguement that they were closer in thought and prayers to Eru than Elves.

However, since most of the teaching of Eru must have originated from their Eldar tutors, it seems odd that more reference is not made to the Eru-Elven connection. Most reference and acknowledgement that Elves give to their origins, lies mainly steeped in their appreciation and reverence of the role of the Valar in their (Elves) beginning. An example would be the praise given to Varda for their awakening, not directly to Eru! I wonder still if Tolkiens view was that Elves were in closer unity to the Valar, thus cementing both their fates in Arda and ultimately a feeling of distance from Eru? Then again, since Manwe was closer to the thought of Eru than any other, it leads one to have more difficulty in understanding the true nature of the relations between Men and Elves, Elves and Eru, Elves and Valar.

If this makes sense to anyone reading, please repeat back to me:D I hate scratching the surface of theology, especially in a mythology!!!