Voting for the Dagor Nuin Giliath: Coudd Aman be considered a Paradise or Hell for th

[Maedhros]

Judges are:
Grond Guildmaster of Tolk. - Team B
Gothmog Independent. - Team B
Maedhros Topic selecter. - Team B
Result of the poll. - Team B

In these debates, there are no winners or loosers. Everyone wins because everyone has to dig deep into the books of Tolkien to debate.:)

This poll has a duration of 7 days, and everyone can vote on it. So feel free to look at the debate and cast your opinion.:cool:

[Ponte]

I woted wrong, I meant to wote for Team B but I made a misstake so I voted for Team A, can this be changed?

[Nenya Evenstar]

I voted for Team B. They were able to take all of Team A's arguments and use them to accentuate their own arguments, and their points overshadowed Team B's. However, this could just be due to the lack of Team A members who participated. Anyway great job to both teams!

[Gothmog]

Both teams opened with good points and continued throughout the debate. Team A worked with the view that it was the fact that Aman existed that acted as a spur and a ray of hope to Men while Team B said that the fact that Aman was 'Known' to exist gnawed at them. Much that was posted by both teams was well thought out and presented.

What I felt made the difference in the debate and what has swayed my vote was the use of Analogies. This can be very difficult to get right.

The points that I felt decided it for me were.

And now they are told – “Be quiet! Be still! Be patient! Stop searching!” – For Men that meant – “Stop living!” from Lhunithiliel's opening

Ceorl's Analogy.
Look at how people could tease a small child; they show it a sweet but then refuse to let them taste it while slowly sucking away making various comments about how good it tastes.

Such is the case with the Atani of ME. To them who have the need to satisfy their curiosity burned into them, it must seem as if they are being taunted indeed.

A similar one by MithlondTo the race of men, Aman was the unattainable paradise land, the sweet candy dangling from a string above a childs head, just out of hands reach. followed byAman caused nothing but hell for the race of men, for they feared Aman, they feared the power that dwelt there.


quote:
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'Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwe are come upon Numenor!'
And they fell upon their faces.
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These were the main points that caused me to find that Team B had the better of this debate. However, I wish to say once more that both teams did well and I hope to see more of each member of this guild in debates both within your guild and with other Guilds.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Team B were certainly a leg ahead in this debate,though they had stiff competition from team A.
I myself didn't take part in this debate,although I was scheduled to,merely because I thought we were supposed to take turns.I think that it may have been the size of the team's that threw me.
If I may make a suggestion,it may be better to limit the teams to the standard three each-those three using the standard-case,rebuttal and closing arguement.
Each team member would be contacted prior to assess their availability and positioning for the debate and each"debator"would take their turn in presenting their case,possibly a page to a page and a half in length.
This would probably make for a better debate and an easier method for determining the winner's of such.It may take longer,but I am sure that an organised debate would benefit the guild(and our collective understanding)more than the expediency of time.

[Maedhros]

I would have to give my vote to team B too. I have to make a especial mention to Hirilia who took the brunt of the debate for team A.
The Team B arguments seemed better and more elaborated than those of A.
In the future, the size of the teams will be more limited, because this was the first intra guild activity, I wanted all the active members to take place in this activity which I hope will become a tradition here. With the amount of members now, we will need to size down the debating teams.

[Elfarmari]

I would vote for Hirila, simply because she was debating essentially by herself against another team.

I apologize for not having much time to participate in the debate; I'm just getting started with school and have had a busy last couple of weeks. I should have more time now, so I would be interested in participating in future debates!

[Ceorl]

Dwimmerlaik I completely agree with the standard debating techniques, however a team of four allows for more variety.

Opening: Defines their sides angle and opens one or two points, says what everone is going to say.
Second: Continues the points of the first speaker and elaborates.
Rebuttal: Says why his side is right and the opposition is wrong; highlights flaws in opponents case.
Summary: Summarises the entire debate in a highly biased way; this can be the defining point and a very tricky thing to do well.

We would need team leaders who organise positions on the team and make sure everyone knows what they are talking about and the angle that the side is taking.

[Grond]

And I have finally freed up enough time to tend to this final vote. I must give my vote also to Team B. They conveyed a more uniform and sustained attack. I think that Team A argued convincingly given the premise that they began. I must comment that I feel the very subject matter was much harder for Team A than Team B. As anyone who reads the works knows, Aman would historically be the bane for Man and for Noldor for that matter until reconciled with the Valar by Earendil.

I will end with a quote that no one brought up. from The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days
...Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.It sounds to me like Man has something better to look forward to after the end of the world. His soul will be freed and he will sing in the Second Music of the Ainur.

The Last Battle by Grond

Melkor had broken the chain Angainor and was finally free. He burst from the Void and descended into Aman. The Valar stood patiently as they had awaited this very hour for all the millenia of Middle-earth. The sky darkened as Melkor descended upon the plain of Valinor, Grond appeared in his hand as he flew.

Three figures stood in the forefront, quietly awaiting the darkening gloom. Tulkas, like a giant bull awaiting the red flag; Feanor stood on Tulkas' right, bearing a great spear, freed at last from the confines of the Halls of Mandos; and on the Valar's left stood Turin Turambar, returned from the netherworld of Man and in his hand Gurthang glistened a deadly black.

As Melkor swept down upon the plain, a dark spirit appeared out of the East... Sauron, Gorthaur the Cruel carried to the field by a foul wind. The two Evils met aways from the Three. As one they charged in deadly silence. Turin first met Sauron, and with one mighty sweep of his sword, Sauron's legs were cut out from under him. Feanor hurled his spear into Sauron's evil heart and the blood curtling scream of a dying Maiar was carried on the wind. A dark shape fled from the crumpled body and was absorbed in the sky by a bright light.

Tulkas wrestled with Melkor and was thrown down. Grond descended and struck a paralysing blow to the Vala. Melkor stood over him ready to deliver the final crushing blow when he too stumbled forward. Gurthang had stabbed up into the sinew of his mighty knee. He stumbled forward and Feanor grabbed Melkor's bleeding leg as Tulkas pulled himself up. Tulkas threw himself upon the staggering Dark Lord and drove Melkor to the ground.

Melkor was pinned under the weight of Tulkas and Feanor, held down, helpless and hopeless. He looked to the sky as Turin stood over him and cried to Iluvator, "Mine only desire was to be as Thee!" Turin drove Gurthang into Melkor's bosom. There was a huge flash on the ground and another in the heavens. The heavens parted and the Flame Imperishable appeared, blinding all who dared look upon it. The Flame grew ever brighter and Melkor's body was absorbed.

A voice from the Heaven's commanded, "Evil is vanquished. Let the Music begin yet again." The souls of all the departed Race of Man from the beginning of time appeared in a great choir, and the Vanyar and the Noldor and the Teleri and all the others of the Elves were there assembled too. And the Valar were there and the Music they made was beyond Beauty, beyond Wonder, even beyond Light.

And the World was wrought anew. And evil was gone. Only Good and Light remained. And Peace reigned eternal, as it was originally envisioned by the One.

[Lhunithiliel]

AMEN!
*sobbing and almost choked with emotions*
......
Hey, but what became of the mighty Grond after his master perished?

[Gothmog]

He became a Mod on the TTF!!!
:D :p :cool:

[Gil-Galad]

Obviuosly we're all for team "B";)

[Lhunithiliel]

PRAISE THE JUDGES!
Did you understand , Team "B"?

WE HAVE WON!!!!
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I too understand that Team "A" had a more difficult task than we, and that most of its members did not participate (:confused: ), so if the last were not like that, we would have had harder victory!
But still a VICTORY!:p
And Maedhros is quite right! We actually all won!

[Hirila]

*sob*

Hey, Congratulations Team B. Obviously people think you did a better job.
Perhaps you convinced some of them, but please excuse my not changing opinion. To me Aman would be a Paradise. :)

But you really did a great job. Your victory was well-earned. I'm looking forward for the next debate. I'm gonna smash you, crash you...;)

Hey, and I didn't think we, that is Team A, had the more difficult task. It is you have to find the right arguments. There are lots and lots of them on both sides. It's only how you present them. Obviously you did better. That's all. See ya!

Oh, and thanks Elfarmari and Maedhros. You pulled me out of this pit of despair I was in after having lost the debate. Thanks a lot friends. You'll get autographs later. :D

[Lhunithiliel]

*bows* to Hirila!
This is the good thing about debates - we ALL learn both - information and how to defend a position.
After all, the good old Einsten had said it all clearly - IT DEPENDS... (of course, paraphrasing him, not quoting! :) )

[Gil-Galad]

The idea for debates is great,but I want to suggest something.Is it possible more people to be in the team,because there will be more different and intersting posts.I want to ask also whether is possible the time for debates to be a little longer.I wanted to add some things,and guess how I felt when I saw it was closed.And I'm late just for a day:(

[Maedhros]

Well, very interesting observation. This particular debate had 7 members per side. In my view, that is way too many, but since this was the first debate in the guild, I wanted to make sure that everyone would participate in it.
I would like to create debates in a smaller format, preferable 4 vs 4. I time that a Week would be time enough to participate in one, and not end up in circles in the debate.

[Hirila]

Well said, Guildmaster!

With only 4 (or perhaps5) members in one team you can at least try and make up some strategy and follow some debating rules. That's not possible in bigger teams.

[gate7ole]

But I want you to observe how many players actually partcipated. From my team (A) only 3, and from the other about the same (3-4). That means more than half of the players didn't join the debate. And the time was too long. After the 4 days, we continued to repeat the same arguments. So, it would be better if people informed beforehand if they would be willing to participate in the next debate and then form small groups of 3 people each part. If the candidates are more, they can be switched in every debate.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Also, if we make smaller teams (and alternate interested guild members like gate7 said) the teams will probably be able to communicate better and actually come up with plans as a team and hopefully limit getting caught in circles.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Well, very interesting observation. This particular debate had 7 members per side. In my view, that is way too many, but since this was the first debate in the guild, I wanted to make sure that everyone would participate in it.
I would like to create debates in a smaller format, preferable 4 vs 4. I time that a Week would be time enough to participate in one, and not end up in circles in the debate.
I like too the idea about debates with a format 4 vs 4.But I have another idea which can be addition to yours.We could have two kinds of debates.Smaller-4 vs 4-for more specialized topics,and a bigger type od debates-for example 6 vs 6,8 vs 8.The second kind of debates would be for questions which are of greater interest for people,debates in which more people would like to join.