Dependency? Are we raising a bunch of leaches???

[HLGStrider]

I was babysitting awhile ago, playing a simple game of store with two sisters ages about 11 and 8. One of them was the secretary, I was the owner, and the eight year old was the clerk or customer depending on her mood (She was also combining the game of house by having all her baby dolls present).

Giving the "secretary" something to do I told her to write a letter to the zoo asking them if we could buy an elephant. Not to be left out the eight year old also wanted a letter written. Her was to be to the government to ask them to help because her babies needed some milk...

Now my politics were annoyed so I told her to write a letter to the government and tell them we weren't going to pay taxes anymore... :rolleyes:

Later in the same game after we'd had a shoplifter episode in the store the government sent us a letter (the secretary said they did anyway) saying that they were investigating the shoplifting and were going to buy us a security system.

When I was their age (all of under ten years ago) I would never have thought to go to the government for these things in a game or in real life. The idea that it was the governments responsibility to provide for me or anyone was ridiculous in my mind...

Then I got to thinking.

I am homeschooled. These kids go to a school payed for by the government. They probably know people who accept welfare. Their teachers are paid by the government. They will probably accept government funding to go to college someday... No wonder they think that the government is some sort of ultimate provider.

Is this right? Are we raising a bunch of leaches who will always want stuff from the government and expect to be bailed out of every financial difficulty?

I think we are.

[Gamil Zirak]

That's interesting. I know I wouldn't have thought of that when I was a kid. Now, the first thing to go through my mind was that that shop lifting episode was going to result in a tax deduction.

There are a lot of people in the education industry (primary and college) that have liberal views (i.e. the government should provide for us). I guess it's absorbed from them. You can't teach objectively. I don't care who the professor/teacher is. You're always going to through your opinions in there. It's getting worse with two income families too. The school spends more time raising your kids than you do and they have a greater influence. Every kid that goes to a public college in their home state gets half of the school paid for by the government. WE NEED REFORM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HLGStrider]

One Yay... any Nays?

[Ciryaher]

The government benefits from paying for/helping with education, health care, and many other services. By helping to create an educated and healthy workforce, they ensure the strength of the nation.

I see nothing wrong with government funding these sorts of things (of course my political survey said I was a socialist/communist/marxist/fascist, so that might have something to do with it...)

[Gamil Zirak]

So I have to pay for someone else's health care? It's not really the governments money anyway. It belongs to poor working stiffs like me.

[Rangerdave]

Assuming you make less that $100,000.00 per year, your personal contribution to public health and welfare services is about 2 cents per five years. Compare that to how much you pay so the Government can buy those $900.00 hammers it seems like not so big a deal to me. And don't even think about how much the CIA/NSA/NRC classified budgets are.

RD

[Gamil Zirak]

2 cents per five years? Isn't the medicaid contribution 1.25%. That's $6,250 for five years.

[HLGStrider]

The thing is the government has no right to take from anyone. Once this process starts who's to say where it stops? Should they take money to pay for TV sets for people? What about books!!! But which books...

If the government is buying people things it decides which things to give them. The government schools decide what we learn. The government libraries decide what we read (and have a lousy history of banning books that were really stupid to ban). Etc. etc.... we're not just leaches, we're zombies!

[daisy]

First of all, if you had been my daughter's babysitter and she related this less than touching play story to me, I would have fired you and never hired you again. In fact, I would have told anyone who would listen that you think you have the right to put your political beliefs onto children who are not yours and that, as a ( I am assuming) minor, you were putting yourself into a position that you have not earned. I am a teacher and am smart enough and professional enough to try to never put my personal political or religious beliefs into my classroom because that is not my job. I uphold the Safe Schools and Education Act legislation concerning no racist, sexist, homophobic or violent stuff allowed from kids in my classroom but I do not tell them all how their parents who are struggling to make it are leeches and suck off the system. Do you know anyone with problems? This poor kid playing a game with her dolly and wanting milk, like she would ask her mommy for, and you make this into a big political blah blah about welfare dependency? It must be nice to never be poor, sick, mentally ill, abused etc. WHy don't you come and visit my high school sometime and see those kids who are just trying to survive and tell them they are leeches sucking off society.
Ugh. I am going to go and call my babysitter and thank her for having a kind heart.And I pay over six hundred dollars a month in taxes so you better believe I expect things from my government, including safe roads, a police force, education for my kid, drinking water, healthcare and an economy, and I am totally satisfied that some of my money goes to other people who need help.

[HLGStrider]

In the first place I do not consider telling a ten year old to write a letter to the government refusing to pay taxes to be instilling political beliefs in them. Most ten year olds are old enough to get the joke (The eight year old possed the statement, but the ten year old was the secretary) In the second place I am actually a highly lenient babysitter.
In the third place I would say that you are getting highly emotional about a political question.
This poor kid playing a game with her dolly and wanting milk, like she would ask her mommy for, and you make this into a big political blah blah about welfare dependency?
The problem is not that she asked her mother. I certainly hope that the government is not taking on parental roles with anyone... We weren't playing "poor family". We were playing store. I do, however, believe that we should take it as a wake up call... Why would a child raised by parents who I know support her (and support her well) by working think that if she was playing a working mom it would be necessary to call up the government to support her children? It doesn't make sense to me.

I uphold the Safe Schools and Education Act legislation concerning no racist, sexist, homophobic or violent stuff allowed from kids in my classroom but I do not tell them all how their parents who are struggling to make it are leeches and suck off the system.

I haven't researched this act and I am not sure what point you are making. We weren't dealing with racist, sexist, homophobic, or violent stuff. My point that she has a government school was not my main one, but it is an interesting point and I was wondering if it could be a factor. It seems to me strange that a child would make such a statement. Doesn't it to you? IF she were from a family that was low income and had been taking government money I would not consider it strange nor necessarily wrong . This is not the case, however.
I am a teacher and am smart enough and professional enough to try to never put my personal political or religious beliefs into my classroom because that is not my job.
Come on... Text books are full of all of the above in various ways (with the exception of religious). If they weren't this kid would never have come up with this distorted idea about where food comes from. I don't know about your state, but I happen to know that mine has a liberal school system. I have read text books geered towards the ten to twelves sect that shocked me as to their blantant onesided liberality (usually history books).
It must be nice to never be poor, sick, mentally ill, abused etc. WHy don't you come and visit my high school sometime and see those kids who are just trying to survive and tell them they are leeches sucking off society.
As I think I said before she is a very well provided for child. However, I do believe that the government, by providing for all these problems, has caused a sense of apathy in the public so that we are not. It reminds me of the quote from the Christmas Carol "Are there no prisons and poor houses"... These are both government institutions (maybe not the poor houses, some but not all). While ours are much better than these standards, we do have this mentality. Instead of doing things about it ourselves we pass laws to make someone else do it...
And I pay over six hundred dollars a month in taxes so you better believe I expect things from my government, including safe roads, a police force, education for my kid, drinking water, healthcare and an economy, and I am totally satisfied that some of my money goes to other people who need help.
It goes to those who need it and those who don't after it has been passed through a big buerocratic system, juggled around, messed up, fought over... etc. etc. etc....

Wouldn't it be better for private institutions to take care of most of these things so that you could support them willingly instead of being forcibly made to support them through taxes?

[Ciryaher]

"Forced to help them"

I think it's rather saddening when you think that you are being forced to help someone. Would you donate to these "private institutions"? If you would, then what difference does it make if the government is doing it or you? And if you *wouldn't* donate, then you are just a sad and greedy individual.

[JanitorofAngmar]

Hey HGL Strider!

I think Daisy just made your point for you! You have elicited an example of your observation from the ranks and I congratulate you.

As for Daisy,

Don't even think about getting into "taxes" with me. I live in

C A N A D A!!!!!!!! We don't just take taxes here. We cut off your limbs!

$600 in taxes....PAH! Chump change around here Madam!

I'm with HGL on this. Let's all make the government responsible for every aspect of our lives! It's like the British couple that tried to sue a National Park cause they got attacked by a bear. Geez! Dependants all right.

Daisy - for you $600 in taxes do you also get a govt. that treats it's neighbors like they have no soveriegnty. Does that $600 dollars get you YOUR say in foreign policy (bet you didn't have a clue about it before 911 did you)? Might is NOT right!

Keep teaching the kids HGL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll get nailed for this post I'm sure!

[daisy]

I also live in Canada and know a great deal about foreign policy and did so before September 11th and I pay about six hundred per paycheque, not monthly. I earn gross about 3600 dollars Canadian and clear about 2500. So I am also taxed out the wazoo, but I also get universal healthcare for both my daughter and myself, roads, social services, whatever. Sure, I think that those large corporations should pay more and all, but I spend very little time worrying about it.
And to what 'ranks' were you referring? Leaches? Poor? I didn't quite get your meaning and felt it must be an important point that you were making. I don't know why people are so down on the poor, as if poor people somehow enjoy their lives and savour every miniscule handout from the government. And who are the poor, really? They are thousands of children - one in five in Canada...and the empathy is so lacking that we refer to these people who turn to the government for help as leaches? What is that about? So poor people in other countries who receive foreign aid are poor, sympathetic rustics but the poor within our own countries are demonized? And yeah, I get emotional about this because I don't view this 'political' issue with cold detachment? The leacher to which you refer are people.....

[Ciryaher]

Also, what about the Native Americans? They're one of the poorest and least educated groups in the US. The Government obviously doesn't provide enough, so where are the "private institutions" for the Natives? I don't see huge organizations helping them out.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the United States has one of (if not the) lowest charitable contribution rate for it's GNP (which is also one of if not the highest in the world). If the government didn't help these people out, and the taxes were lower, I highly doubt that Americans would donate much more money to charities than they do now.

[HLGStrider]

The government cannot give compassion. It can clumsily provide material wealth by taking away from other people who would probably do more good with it. Humans are not material creatures. They need this compassion.

Cir, do you have spending money? Let me ask you this question. Would you prefer that you do what you want with your spending money or have your mother confiscate it when you get it and buy what she thinks you need with it? Wouldn't you resent it just a tad bit? Wouldn't your pride hurt just a little bit? Wouldn't you wonder why she doesn't think you are mature enough to deal with your own cash?

I know of at least one group that ministers to Indians... the Kid Brothers of St. Francis. They cannot be the only ones.

The sad thing about the indians is that they are a prime example. The government gives them their money so they don't value it (or some of them don't) and so they waste it. I know people who are still getting check from the gov. because they had Cherokee grandfathers. The Indians receive more federal aid than most groups (I am not going from statistics here, but I know they are being compensated for the land we stole from them). They should be doing pretty darn well by now, considering... It hasn't happened.

When we started welfare we had a lot more poor people than we do now. I'd say the rate of people on welfare was a small proportion of the population in the fifties. Now it is a very high proportion. You'd think if it were doing any good it would eventually lessen until in some sort of idealistic, socialist utopia the need for it would disappear all together. It hasn't been happening. The war on poverty is the war against the poor.

I'm fine with educating people, though I think the government is a lousy way to educate people. I think that through private means people will work up through the ranks a lot faster.

We have a low charity rate because we expect the government to take over... HECK! We have welfare, why should I bother? Also we do have a lower poverty rate and a highly secular society. The secular part is very important because many charities are run by churches of one sort or another or religious groups, often with the idea of converting people.

Personally I don't see poor people as leaches... yet... but if we are raising children to think that they need the government to provide for their own kids (even kids who have parents who provide for them) they will soon be leaches...

What we should be teaching them is about people who from their own resources conquered the odds that made them fit to receive government aid and made something of themselves. That's what my country is based upon, the shoulders of these people. You used to find them in every history book.

[Aslan]

I feel that one point that should be made is that it should be people helping people, not Government-Forced Contributions helping people. If society seems to be apathetic towards other peoples problems, could it not be because the Big Brother takes our place in providing for the poor, the sick, etc...Government rewards immoral and irresponsible behaviors with money, food stamps, housing, medical benefits, etc... When THE PEOPLE are expected to take care of one-another, moral and responsible behaviors increase because people, as a rule, do not support reprobates. I can go on and on, but I'll stop here for now.:)