Questions on Reading the Silmarillion

[Kit Baggins]

I tried reading the Silmarillion once, and I didn't really understand it, so could someone please give me a basic summary of what it's about :confused: ?

~Kit :p

[Telchar]

Uhm.. Well.. I can give you a realy short summary..

The Silmarillion is about the creation of Arda and the comming of the Elves. It tells about the First age and the war of the Jewels/ the war agains Melkor, the Morgoth, and the War of Wrath where the Valar decide to attack Morgoth. There are also stories from the Second Age that tells about Numenor and the forging of the Rings of Power and the Drowning of Numenor..

That's all I'm willing to tell you, the rest you'll have to read about.. :)

btw, Welcome to the Tolkien Forum! :)

[Rosie Cotton]

Welcome Kit! :D I'm not going to try to add to Telchar's summary. I will recommend trying to read The Silmarillion again in a few years. I know that I couldn't get past the first section the first time I tried to read it. It just took me a few more years, and a few more readings of LOTR to get me intrested enough to read it all the way through.

[Spectre]

I'm new here too...but I completely agree with Rosie on this. I had read the hobbit and the lord of the rings many times, and the first time I read the Silmarillion I had trouble getting past the first part. When I tried again a few years later I was able to get through it and I loved it.

[Ancalagon]

Hello Kit, love the name.

The Sil is the type of book that really does not need to be read cover to cover, unless of course you wish to look upon it with scholarly interest. You can use it to glean information in relation to many of the aspects you read about in the Lord of the Rings. If you consider this work as a more accessible version of The History of Middle-Earth, then you can pick it up at any time, search for a reference, learn a little history or plough deep into it. The options are endless with the Sil. I refer to it often, even though I read it many times, I simply use it to check my own understanding of certain themes.

The same can be said for Unfinished Tales, which is really an extension of Tolkiens works. Again, this will cover many of the loose ends without the need to read in depth. As much as I recommend you read them in total when the time is right, don't disregard them, for they are still essential reading for any appreciative Tolkien enthusiast.

[Grond]

Welcome Kit. Your profile shows that you're 15 and that's plenty old enough to appreciate the Silmarillion. Let me make a few suggestions.
1) For now, ignore the Ainulindale. It basically reads like a bible and tells of the music of the Ainur (angels if you will) at the bidding of Eru (God) from which tune the earth and heavens were formed as well as the plan for all that lies therin. It is beautifully written but not an easy read. Once you've sunk your teeth into some of the other tales, you can come back to it.
2)Read the Quenta Silmarillion in small doses. (Maybe a chapter or even a half chapter a day). You'll find that it grows on you and before long you'll be reading it the same way you read LotR. If you are still getting bored try reading Chapter 19 "Of Beren and Luthien". It tells of Arwen's ancestor who is mentioned in the LotR several times. It is a beautiful love story and one of the bravest and most interesting in the Sil.
3) If you keep getting bored with the Quenta Silmarillion... try the Akallabeth. It tells of the rise and fall of the island of Numenor whom Aragorn is descended from. It, too, is an interesting read and tells a lot of Sauron and the Ring.
4) If none of that holds your interest... at least read "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". It gives you all kinds of background on the making of the Rings of Power and tracks that history from their making and follows them into the time of LotR.

Hope this helps and if you'll give it a chance.... I think you'll find the reading just as enjoyable.. only slightly different in tone and rhythm. :D :) ;)

[Aredhel]

Who likes the Silmarillion? I read when I was fourteen and I have been captivated by it. It was one that I really liked because it was about elves.:D

[Gothmog]

I have had as much enjoyment out of the Silmarillion as I have from the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.:) To me it is an essential part of the story. when I start reading Tolkien's books again I allways start with the Sil.:cool:

[Ancalagon]

I think it a fascinating book, not at all similar to the Rings. It is also as far-removed from the general storytelling of the Hobbit as you could imagine. The fact we can look in much greater depth at the history of Middle-Earth and it's creation is incredibly interesting.

Oooooh, makes me want to read it for my..hmmmm, how many would this be now?

[Kementari]

I loved the Sil! I think i enjoyed it more than LotR (if that is possible)... :)

[syongstar]

When I first read it as a teen I enjoyed it but did'nt see the symbolism therefore had no grasp of its depths but after studing ancient religons I thought it was totally AWESOME!!!!

[Tyaronumen]

The Silmarillion changed the way that I view the world, myself, and all the things in between. A wonderful book, most truly.

[Rosie Cotton]

I think that the Sil is a very impressive book of high quality, but I'm afraid I don't like it all that much. I've only read it once though, and I think I will get A LOT more out of it my next read through. I think I may have liked it more if I could have followed it better. So many names to remember! My poor little brain couldn't take it.

[Courtney]

I love the Sil.!!!! It took me all summer to read, though. It's just a lot to take in. I had no idea what it would be like when I first read it. I like the very beginning when the Valar were a song, and then Melkor messed it up(sounds like some trumpet players i know. He he!) The world would be a much better place if it really was made from music!

[Hama]

The three main books by Tolkien in the Middle Earth series are just so different, and seem to serve different purposes. The Hobbit is a great children's book, although it remains accessible to older readers, but I would still view it at the same level as the Narnia series or the Wind in the Willows (just better!). The Lord of the Rings is just a great novel. No that would be an extreme understatement. But the Silmarillion is at a whole new level. It is epic mythology, and I believe it is the 20th century's version of Homer and Hesiod, of the Bible, of the Mahabharata and Ramayana, and of the Icelandic sagas. I read somewhere, that Tolkien is the imaginative equivalent of an entire society, and I believe the Silmarillion makes this so, more than any other book. Whenever I travel anywhere I take a copy with me, so that when I am bored I just flip open to any old page and revel in Tolkien's language. As a Classics student, I specialize in Greek and Roman mythology, and that makes me love this saga even more. A number of people I know are just bogged down by the immense number of names, but having grown up reading Indian, Norse, Egyptian and Greek myths, I for one do not find that to be as much of a problem. Just like the Hobbit and the LoTR, I think if one catches this book at the right age and in the right mood, there is nothing comparable to it, and I was one of the more fortunate in this regard. I just wish more people would take the courage to read it and appreciate it as much as myself.

[Hama]

Kit,
I got off to quite a late start to the world of Tolkien. I was first introduced to the hobbit at about nine, and read it in entirity about two years later. I loved it, but didn't get past the first chapter of the Lord of the Rings until I was fifteen. So I guess I didn't read the Silmarillion till I was about fifteen or sixteen and in the last two years (I am now 18) I must have read it cover to cover at least six times, and more in bits and pieces. I agree with Grond for the most part. The Ainulindale is a bit heavy, but the Quenta is great. Don't worry about the names. Refer back to the glossary and family trees whenever you don't know who someone is. I also saw a book on sale once entitled the Complete Guide to Middle Earth, or the Dictionary of Middle Earth or something to that effect (Grond, Ancalagon and Co. can you help me out?) I am sure that would be a good companion to the Silmarillion. I also agree that the Unfinished Tales is a great book to read if the Silmarillion captures your fancy. If it doesn't wait a year or two and pick it up again. Cheers.

[menchu]

The Silmarillion is essential!
After reading it you can understand anything that LOTR mentions about the past.

I think I've never read anything like that. Tolkien made a great work, looks so real. I think it's amazing to find such a succesful view of a world created for a story. Not only the languages, but the Geography, the History, the lineages...

I remember an article from a magazine which said this book pretended to show the past, a possible one, of the Earth.

[Aredhel]

I liked the part about Luthien Tinuviel and Beren Erchanion(is that how you spell it?). The part I find most intriging was the elves unending quest to retrieve the Silmarils. I read the LotR first, then the Silmarillion. I enjoyed the character Galadriel a lot. When I read the epic history of the elves, and she came over from the West, I didn't realize she was so old.

[Tar-Steve]

My last reading of The Silmarillion (less than a month ago) was different than before. I had not read it for a long time (more than 15 years). I had previously enjoyed it but mainly appreciated it for the enhancements it had provided towards my LOTR readings. With this latest reading (at least my third) the stories were so much more intense, moving, and emotional.

I can't stress enough that all of the Middle-earth stories need to be read and re-read before they overwhelm you with their quality, depth, and completion. Of course, the first reading can overwhelm you too, but each time I read them, as I change over time, they keep getting better and what I take from them continues to expand.

Anyway, to answer your question ... yeah! I liked it a lot!

[DGoeij]

I can't say liked is the word. It took me some time to go through but it truly enriched my understanding of Middle Earth, the Rings of Power, Beren and Luthien and so much else. It was best to be reading it for a second and third time, because I really got out of it what was in it.

[Dengen-Goroth]

I love it, think it is the best thing Tolkien ever wrote. Much better then LoTR in my opinion. I can't imagine how great it would be had Tolkien written a book like LoTR in it's detail but within the first age.

[Ancalagon]

Now theres an interesting point;

I like the very beginning when the Valar were a song, and then Melkor messed it up

Do you think Melkor, being an offshoot of the thought of Iluvatar was doomed to bring confusion and disruption to this music, because he was representative of Iluvatars own darker nature?

Your thoughts one and all.

[Courtney]

That's a very good point. However, Illuvator must not have had a too dark of nature, if only one out of all the Valar was evil. I kind of think it would have been really boring if Melkor was good, though. You have to admit, people really love having something to fight for, and someone to hate.

[Ancalagon]

Ahh, but you have to remember that Melkor, mightiest of all the Ainur (though the only reputed to have woven discord into the music) was not the only one who was inherently evil. Many of those who sang were later to become part of his legion. Not all of those who joined him were disillusioned or corrupted by him , many simply followed the path he chose in admiration of his splendour and majesty.

[Courtney]

It may be a bit off the subject, but what would be wrong with a few minor chords in the song of the world? It makes it a bit more interesting. Discord isn't all that bad.

[Hama]

I think this is a crucial topic, and am happy that someone brought it up. I think Melkor was definitely a side of Iluvatar, and that seems to be an element of all mythology. Many gods are given human characteristics and are seen to have vices as well as good sides to their personalities. Tolkien did a really interesting thing and decided to make one of the principal gods evil - the most mighty of the Valar at that. But remember, Manwe was the one that was closest to the will of Iluvatar. I would say that the Valar did not have the power to revolt from Iluvatar, but Melkor the greatest of them did. He also had the ability to corrupt the will of many of the Maiar. But this brings in a good question. Were all of the struggles between the good and the evil in Tolkien's world determined when the Ainur were formed by Iluvatar?

[DGoeij]

You should start your own thread about this Ancalagon, so others may notice the discussion. Really interesting topic. I certainly will think it over and when I have a little more time on my hands, I'll post my views.

[Ancalagon]

In order not to hijack the original question within this thread, I have moved my own question into this new thread;

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1051

[Eonwe]

I love the Sil, much more so than LoTR (I am so bizzare)

My favorite part is when Elwe meets Melian in the forest, she is singing, then they stare into each other's eyes in the forest for so long the stars above them wheel... That is so cool and romantic and I am not even close to a girl. (I consider myself a he-man like Hurin wielding his axe saying dawn will come)

I am such a newbie!

I think what people don't like about the Sil is that it is so sad (Turin is so hard to read). But I think it is fantastic...

[Merry]

Originally posted by Aredhel
Who likes the Silmarillion? I read when I was fourteen and I have been captivated by it. It was one that I really liked because it was about elves.:D

If I had read the Silmarillion first I wouldn't have enjoyed it. Because I read the hibbit and LOTR first, the Silmarillion facinates me because it gives the history of M-E and the birth of time. I view it more as a history lesson rather than a story.

I didn't realise Tolkiens true genius until I started the Sil:)

[Curufinwe]

Look at Tolkiens life he was very christian. Eru was definatly god if you look at the similarities, Melkor was Satan, obviously and the other Valar were of tolkiens creation for he loved norse and celtic stories which had many gods and he wanted to create a whole world like that of the norse or celtic people or maybe even the greeks. He wanted to make a mythology for England he says in a documentary and also it is mentioned in some of the books.

[Tulidian]

I just got the Silmarillion, and am reading it now. It is a lot harder for me to read than the rest of LotR, because there is so little dialogue, but I'm determind to read and understand it. I am only at the beginning right now, but I am trying to get one thing straight. I know Sauron was a servent of Melkor. I either accidently skipped a part by accident or haven't got to it, but is Sauron a Maiar? Maybe corrupted by Melkor? This makes sense to me, because Maiar are stronger than the Istaru, so that would make Sauron stronger than Gandalf, which is true. Also, I know this isn't the movie forum, but if Sauron is a Maiar he doesn't have a shape or form, right? So why in the movie did they give him a shape, was it just another PJ blunder, or am I missing something else?

[Telcontar]

Man, I remember when I read the Sil for the first time: I found myself going back over passages a number of times to make sure I had the connections down; because as you say there's little dialogue but a lot of info.

Sauron was a Maia of Melkor (as each of the Valar had Maiar as their 'helpers'); and though the Maiar were visible in the Blessed Realm, in ME they rarely took visible form or a form that could be recognized. Up to the foundering of Númenor, Sauron could put forth an image that didn't appear evil. After the foundering of Númenor, be was never able to take a 'pleasing' form.

[Curufin]

I really love Silmarillion. There are so many good stories with fascinating characters

[Curufinwe]

The Istari were originally maiar aswell though, and sauron was I think a maia of Aule for he found out how to make inevitably the rings of power.

[Dengen-Goroth]

Indeed true! Remember though, Sauron had to have had ashape for the ring to be cut of his finger, but after the fall of Numenor he could no longer remain fair to the eye. As for the Istari, they were also Maia, read the Unfinished Tales, of the Istari.

[Greymantle]

Yeah... I don't think the Istari ever stopped existing as Maiar: why would they? They aren't just originally Maiar, but continue to exist as such (as far as I know!). Presumably it's just the same with Sauron and the Balrogs.
Hey, whatever happened to Melian? It's been yearish since I read the Sil, and I'm forgetting most of it. I've just started my re-read.

[Ancalagon]

Keep reading; your questions will all be answered in due course. I would recommend re-reading the first 2 chapters severals times, just to aquaint yourself with who's who. Look for all relations to Melkor, for in that you will notice that not all those Maiar who followed him were corrupted by him; some simply chose to take the path he chose.

[Tulidian]

Ah, okay im beginning to understand now. I'll continue reading and reading until I finally have this all down. Thanks for all the help!

[Zoe]

I am new to the wonderful world of Tolkein. I saw the LOTR movie and LOVED it. But the only Tolkein book I've read is The Book of Lost Tales 1, which I thoroughly enjoyed. So now I am very excited to dive deep, but I don't know where to start. The Hobbit comes before the LOTR trilogy, right? Where does the Silmarillion come in? I can't wait to read these books! Thanks so much.
Zoe

[Nazgul]

I propose you to read the books in this order:
- The Hobbit
- Lord of the Rings
- The Silmarillion
- and then all HoME

I read in this order and this the most convenient one to read and understand the books

[lilhobo]

Never read the Silmarillion , it s just too sad a tail for any youngster.........just watch 90210, at least their tragedies are palatable??? maybe not lol :D

[Curufinwe]

read them like this so you can understand everything really well.

Silmarillion, it cold also be the hobbit 1st but i suggest you at least read silmarillion so you understand all of the references that they make in lotr.

Silmarillion
Hobbit
LOTR
HOME1-12

[Retrovertigo]

It's better to read the Hobbit and lotr first, otherwise you don't have the faintest clue of whats going on, who these people are or their relevance.
It's easier to get involved in the narratives of the others and then the history will be much more interesting and a gripping read. Well.. thats how it worked for me and a few other people I know.

[Telchar]

Well.. The right order to read the books, to get the most out of them, don't exist..

As for the books chronological (sp?) order..

The Silmarillion
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings

Other books about Middle Earth are:
Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth (HoME)

As for HoME..

Books 1 to 5 mostly tell of the First Age, and some about the Second..
Books 6 to 9 tells of the War of the Ring in the Third Age..
Books 10 to 11 tells of the Wars against Melkor, the Morgoth
Book 12 is about the people of Middle Earth and tells much about Men..

[ReadWryt]

Just read them in the order that the professor created them in, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion ...etc...

The only thing about the Silmarillion is that reading it the first time as if it were a novel is daunting, it's nealy all narative and it's a lot like reading the Bible for it's entertainment value...

[Merry]

Originally posted by Elwood
It's better to read the Hobbit and lotr first, otherwise you don't have the faintest clue of whats going on, who these people are or their relevance.
It's easier to get involved in the narratives of the others and then the history will be much more interesting and a gripping read. Well.. thats how it worked for me and a few other people I know.

Hi Zoe

Welcome to the forum, try and read the hobbit and LOTR first. The Silmarillion fills in the gaps from the first two and completes the picture. I would not have managed the Sil if I read it first.

[Rushlight]

This has been most helpful......I am rereading LOTR after many years, and have just finished Fellowship of the Ring. My husband is reading Two Towers and he is just too slow! Sigh. So I'm getting out my highlighter and gonna start the Sil tonight to give me a Tolkien fix until he finishes Two Towers. So good chance I will be back with lots of questions, I have the feeling it's not such easy reading. We'll see.

Rushlight

[Greymantle]

I agree with Curufinwe... Like I've said before, I really think that reading the Sil (and understanding it!) before LotR would be an amazing experience, if somewhat daunting. Just think what it would be like to understand the full magnitude of this great culmination of a gartantuan epic mythology... truly to understand the nature of Sauron, the life of Gandalf, the magnitude of the treason of Isengard.... You'd just have to be careful not to read the last bit of the Sil about the Third Age. :)
I would recommend reading the Hobbit first. It's a good introduction.
I haven't read UT yet (my stupid Amazon order! I sent for it New Year's Eve!!!) nor completed HoME (working on it, loving it) so I wouldn't know where to place them... but I do know that reading all of Tolkien's drafts of LotR (volumes 6-9, at least what I've read) would be a pointless excercise if you haven't read LotR first...hehe...

[Snaga]

I think it must be really unusually to start with BoLT1.

I definitely think the Sil is hard work. Rewarding eventually but for pure entertainment and immersion in the whole JRRT experience LotR is definitely the best. I don't think you need the Hobbit first, but most people do.

[Curufinwe]

Yep the Silmarillion is hard but definately worth reading.

[Flame of Utumno]

I found that after reading the Hobbit and LoTR I really wanted to learn more about Middle Earth and this led me to the Silmarillion. I loved discovering how all things were so tightly integrated, and how some characters such as Galadriel and Elrond were present in the Silmarillion as well as in the Lord of the Rings.

The order in which I read them was: (The years beside them were when I first read them)

1. The Hobbit (1987)
2. The Lord of the Rings (1988)
3. The Silmarillion (1989)
4. Unfinished Tales (1990)
5. The Book of Lost Tales Part I (1990)
6. Lays of Beleriand (1990)
7. Various parts of the History of Middle Earth (1991)
8. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (For fun in 2001)

I hope you enjoy reading them as much as I did!

[My_Precious]

Sillmarillion...:mad: I never managed to finish it.I read it not in english, I pretty soon I was lost in all those names which were translated differently in all three books... ('Hobbit', 'LoTR', and 'Sillmarillion'. :( :( :(

[Greymantle]

That would be extremely frustrating. Even for an all-English language type like me, distinugishing names in the Sil is difficult. I mean, please! Finwë, Fëanor, Finrod Felagund, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Fingon, Finduilas... come on! Give us a break! ;)
And then to top it off, all the names are switched around in UT and HoME. :rolleyes:

[Rushlight]

I am having one heck of a time with The Sil.......you're right, Greymantle. The names! Good grief. How I wish I hadn't killed so many brain cells in the '70's! I might be able to keep it straight in my head.

I just keep flipping back to the index and that helps somewhat.

Rushlight

[fëanáro]

iv read up tu "of the men coming to the west" and i still dont get really straight up in my head where the $$%& is aman, middle-earth, valinor, beleriand, angband, utumno, the guard realm, the blessed realm and gondolin.
could any one plz explain me in great ranges where is each place as if they were continents if they are, or countries, or states or cities. plz!

[Tar-Steve]

Rushlight,

Pick up a copy of "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth" by Robert Foster ($6.99 US) or similar publication. I wish I had had one when I was reading The Sil for the first time. It may save you a lot of page turning and Sil-searching time.

[Bucky]

Don't feel bad.
It took me 3 readings to get a clue.

You obviously know what a troll is however......

[Gloer]

Aman = USA Mid-West

Tol Eressea = Cuba

Beleriand = area now under the Norther Atlantic

Angband = Iceland (they never managed to destroy Angbands Balrogs and they just build Thangodrim again...it's called mt. Hekla)



Mordor = Carpathian mountains in the Balkans

Minas Tirith = Arround Wien
Gondor = Austria and Northern Italy

Umbar = Under the Mediterranean Sea, somewhere near Cyprus

Shire = Middle England

Bree = London

Rivendell = just west of Bergen in the North Sea, you now that Brunein got wilder later...

Blue Mountains = now under the Irish Sea, Scotland, Shettland, Faroe islands

Rohan = Hungary and Poland

Fangorn = Northern German forest areas if any left

The Misty mountains = Norway, the Skadis mountains

Mirkwood = Sweden, Finland

The White Mountains = the Alps

Numenor = Atlantis

Anduin = Tornio river, Gulf of Bothnia, Baltic Sea, then Oder, Moldau, Donau and into the Adrian Sea.

There you go.

[EverEve]

do u hav ethe three in one version of the book (u know, the one where they r all in one volume)? cuz if u do there are alotta maps in the bak taht tolkien made that r really helpful...and dont feel bad, i still confused too:rolleyes:

[fëanáro]

thanx gloer, it really helped. but found a page!
www.lotrmaps.da.ru
and there i found some maps, but im not sure they´re right, probably they are but i dont know .
http://members.home.nl/r3t/r3t_M10.jpg
http://members.home.nl/backx/r3t_M14.jpg

hope you´ll take a look at'em and tell me what u think about'em
thanx

[Rushlight]

Thank you! I will do that. Sounds like just what I need to help me muddle through.

Rushlight

[Greenwood]

Angband = Iceland (they never managed to destroy Angbands Balrogs and they just build Thangodrim again...it's called mt. Hekla)

RE: Iceland

Gloer

I was reading some Icelandic sagas recently (in English translation, I don't read Icelandic) and at times found myself having flashes of deja vu to LOTR. It was not anything specific as to plot or characters (with one exception), but more a sort of "feel" at times. Of course, given his professional studies, I feel fairly certain that Tolkien read the Icelandic sagas, so I may have just been sensing a distant influence. The one exception I mentioned above was coming across a mention of a character, "Frodi the Valiant"!

[Gloer]

Wasn't Frodi the only viking king ever to reign in peace... a man of peace amongst warriors?

Now what was that ringbearer again... what was his name...

[lilhobo]

its amazing you thought Numenor as Atlantis!!! wonder where JRR got his inspiration from

[Aldanil]

Given that the name of Numenor, as told in the Akallabeth, in the Eldarin tongue is Atalante, the question of Tolkien's inspiration seems fairly settled. More than that, his myth-making intention apparently in this matter was in yet another way to weave the history of Arda into the ancient legends of our own world.

[Greenwood]

Wasn't Frodi the only viking king ever to reign in peace... a man of peace amongst warriors?

Gloer

Sorry, I can't answer that. I will have to do some research on it. Frodi the Valiant was just mentioned in passing in one of the sagas. I still have a number of others to go.

[Gloer]

Well I checked it. Frodi under whose reign there was peace in the North.

From the Prose Edda:

XLII. "Why is gold called Fródi's Meal? This is the tale thereof: One of Odin's sons, named Skjöldr,--from whom the Skjöldungs are come,--had his abode and ruled in the realm which now is called Denmark, but then was known as Gotland. Skjöldr's son, who ruled the land after him, was named Fridleifr. Fridleifr's son was Fródi: he succeeded to the kingdom after his father, in the time when Augustus Caesar imposed peace on all the world; at that time Christ was born. But because Fródi was mightiest of all kings in the Northern lands, the peace was called by his name wherever the Danish tongue was spoken; and men call it the Peace of Fródi. No man injured any other, even though he met face to face his father's slayer or his brother's, loose or bound. Neither was there any thief nor robber then, so that a gold ring lay long on Jalangr's Heath. King Fródi

{p. 162}

went to a feast in Sweden at the court of the king who was called Fjölnir, and there he bought two maid-servants, Fenja and Menja: they were huge and strong. In that time two mill-stones were found in Denmark, so great that no one was so strong that he could turn them: the nature of the mill was such that whatsoever he who turned asked for, was ground out by the mill-stones. This mill was called Grótti. He who gave King Fródi the mill was named Hengikjöptr. King Fródi had the maid-servants led to the mill, and bade them grind gold; and they did so. First they ground gold and, peace and happiness for Fródi; then he would grant them rest or sleep no longer than the cuckoo held its peace or a song might be sung. It is said that they sang the song which is called the Lay of Grótti, and this is its beginning:

Now are we come
To the king's house,
The two fore-knowing,
Fenja and Menja:
These are with Fródi
Son of Fridleifr,
The Mighty Maidens,
As maid-thralls held.

And before they ceased their singing, they ground out a host against Fródi, so that the sea-king called Mýsingr came there that same night and slew Fródi, taking much plunder. Then the Peace of Fródi was ended. Mýsingr took Grótti with him, and Fenja and Menja also, and bade them grind salt. And at midnight they asked whether Mýsingr were not weary of salt. He bade them grind longer. They had ground but a little while, when down sank the ship; and from that

{p. 163}

time there has been a whirlpool the sea where the water falls through the hole in the mill-stone. It was then that the sea became salt.

[Greenwood]

Gloer

I hadn't gotten to that Edda yet. I will have to see if the compilation I have includes it.

Thanks.

[Gloer]

Here is a good link:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/index.htm

[Greenwood]

Gloer

THANK YOU!!!

What a great site! Really fascinating. I have known for years in a sort of vague way that Tolkien was inspired by Norse mythology and texts, but it was only on a trip recent trip to Iceland that I was inspired to pick up a compilation of a number of the Icelandic sagas. I have been reading some of them as time allowed and enjoying them. As I said in an earlier post I was struck by a feeling of deja vu while reading them, but I did not know quite how extensive the links apparently are.

Thanks again.

[Samwise_hero]

I just finished reading the lord of the rings and i started the silmillarion but i just can't get into it. What's it all about

[Elanor2]

The origins and creation of Middle Earth (by Eru-Iluvatar-God) and the battles between the powers of Good and Evil to control it. The arrival of the first races and their struggles, plenty of battles and sad stories, with some happy endings to cheer up.

Gives you the background of plenty of stories that LOTR mentions, but it is written in a kind of Epic manner that makes it a bit difficult. Just take it slowly.

Elanor2

[lilhobo]

it s like your grandma sitting u down and taking out the photo album and telling you about the "good ole days" :D

[DGoeij]

Its worth the effort IMHO. Nothing easy to it, but it gives you great insights on the world of ME and its inhabitants. Have fun, and like Elanor2 said. Take it slowly, take your time.

[Grond]

Samwise_hero, first I want to welcome you to our forum and congratulate you on beginning your journey.

The Silmarillion is such a difficult narrative story (much like the Bible) that it intimidates most everyone at first. My suggestions is to ignore the Ainulindale and just skim the Valaquenta. Don't try to remember all the Vala and their names and purposes. After skimming the Valaquenta go directly to the Quenta Silmarillion and read a chapter. Put the book down for the day. Day 2, begin reading Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. This will get you used to the narrative style while speaking of things that already interest you since you know of the Rings of Power from the LotR. Read it at your own pace and then come back to the Quenta Silmarillion when you've finished that. Read maybe a chapter a day until you're finished. Then proceed to the Akallabeth and read of Aragorn's ancestors in Numenor. It too is interesting and shouldn't be too hard to read. Once you've finished all that, go back and tackle the first two books in the Silmarillion (the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta). By this time you'll be familiar enough with the style and content to both understand and enjoy the whole book. Enjoy!!


;)

[fëanáro]

well as a catholic I have to say:

its like the bible yew, but to a fantasy book level, lord of the rings lever. we must not think that it is as dense, deep and meaningful as the bible, even if it is taken on a lord of the rings level. I´ve read parts from the bible and every time i read them again i get different thinkings and meanings and gets more and more confusing.
on the other hand the simarillion its only like the Genesis, if u wanna compare it to the bible, (although is not that deep) its the beginning of everything.

You must remember! the bible is deep, the simarillion is not, is just confusing fairy tales, thats it.
The bible has stuff in between lines (means that means more than it is written and more than u think it means).
The simarillion means just what it is written.
The bible is not mythical, its moral, ethical and personal; its not history!
the simarillion is just history.


I must say I loved the Simarillion when i read it, and it is great, really a great book. Read it and you'll love it.

[fëanáro]

remember that there is NOTHING BEHIND THE TEXT ON THE TOLKIEN BOOKS.

thats why it aint like the bible.


its a history book about the tolkien world.
a great book.

[Grond]

Compare something to the Bible and people come out of the wood work. The Silmarillion is the Bible of the Tolkien world. It is written in narrative form as is The Bible. It tells of the Genesis of Earth and the development of a people as does the Silmarillion. The Bible Old Testament is a history of the Tribe of Abraham and of his God (the only God). The Silmarillion is a history of the Gods and People of Middle-earth. The Bible New Testament is a history of the coming of the Messiah Jesus Christ. The Silmarillion takes us through three ages of Middle-earth and to the ultimate defeat of a great evil.

Guys.... get with the picture. I was using the statement as an analogy, just as I did above. I did not say the Silmarillion was as good as the Bible, as important as the Bible or as read as the Bible. But neither is the Hobbit, LotR, Sil, UT, or HoMe just another fantasy book to me either. They are my escape world which I hope exists somewhere. One day I may take you there and then you'll see exactly of what I speak.;)

[Merry]

So Grond, are you disrespecting the bible? I'm horrified! :D

I'M JOKING!

Grond is right, the beginning of ME and the song of Eru is very much like the opening chapters of Genesis. The birth of the world and the children of god in the Sil can rightly be compared as a copy, or fantasy adaptation of the good book itself.

I too am Christian and I was amazed at how religious some of the imagery and scenes are in the Sil. This does not mean that the Sil belittles the bible, it is just an in-depth fantasy book.

[telperion]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????? You must remember! the bible is deep, the simarillion is not, is just confusing fairy tales, thats it.
The bible has stuff in between lines (means that means more than it is written and more than u think it means).
The simarillion means just what it is written.
The bible is not mythical, its moral, ethical and personal; its not history!
the simarillion is just history.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

do not , I repeat , do not believe this......

you christians are all the same are you.......

do unto others as as you do to yourself (or do not for that matter because you treat yourself so pour)

do not contempt a book because you honour yours............
a little respect , please
i respect the bible as i do the dictionary or any other word ....or syllamen or paragraph or letter or interpunction,,,,if you let me reinterpunct the bible , will become you god, believe (in) me


when you read the SIL , let your spirituality go along with the ride.....

[Merry]

???????????????

I am confused and getting mildly cross!!! I cannot put a price on the wisdom of the Bible and its meaning. It is a book inspired by God and holds the key for all of our futures and salvation. The Sil is a history book that can be used as a fantasy bible for those that want to delve into ME and Tolkiens world.

You cannot compare the two as the bible is real and the Sil is fantasy. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I KNOW THIS!!!!!!

What is your arguement? You have really lost me! :confused:

[telperion]

my fantasy is as real as i want it to be,
any believer is in essence a disbeliever....

i am sorry to react in such a way , we should continue elsewhere, i know.

let's just conclude with advicing samwise to read it and to take with him as much or as few as possible..

[Merry]

I wasn't trying to be rude when I used uppercase, I just wanted to make my point clear. I realise it doesn't make me right!! :)

[telperion]

well , you weren't....;)

[Merry]

:p

:p :p :p :p

[Grond]

Originally posted by telperion
well , you weren't....;) That, dear telperion, is a matter of OPINION. And yes Walter, I yelled it. As Walter so clearly stated, the assertions of what the Sil is to any person is a matter of personal opinion and taste. So disagree with us in stating your opinion but don't portray that which is an opinion as fact.

BTW Merry, I agree with the assertion
:p

:p :p :p :p

[Merry]

It seemed the only thing to say at the time, I didn't feel like arguing anymore.

YAY SMILIES!!

Oops, I shouted!

[telperion]

how can you opnionate a truth , with all due respect 2 you grond, but merry states that the bible is real.christianity is real.
real as a culture , yes
now what are the features of such realness.....
(homo analyticus,ihate 2b)
1the existence of a truth in the form of a book.....

2a group of followers throughout an period of lenght ...(giving it authenticity)

3 the (foming )existence of a culture around their book...(created by discussion of its meaning)

(4 the writer of the book of books is preferably not able to anwswer)

of course you get my drift... i analyse 2 much...

but you yourself said it ,grond , you hope that that middle earth is still somewhere or has been somewhere..i do too....

so how real are the two cultures ????the tolkien one is very real with me , everyday i look out for the appearance of elvish behaviour and try not to shamen myself when judged by the former on any moment of my day..which is my shot being here on earth.
but i can uderstand that the culture the messias told about could be 2....


and i want to add that much of the mystery i believe in of tolkiens world is taken down by every comparison of many visitors here..
i'm often very disappointed that so many (like thejoseph)just have to relate anything unknown to something of their surrounding ,and therefore safe, culture...
very typical modern day behaviour ...it's the same with our present-day trust in science...look around you and you will see that everyone must relate and explain everything they do not understand .....
Me , i love magic , am not afraid of the unknown, nor do i have disect it with theories of my own....when i defend myself it is always out of the idea of living in ME. ....in the fourth ERA that is.....Now tell me , in what era do you dare to live...
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?

[Merry]

I think I understand your argument now!

Tolkiens world could be counted as 'real' because it is treat just as the bible is. What is the difference between the bible and ME as both have its followers and both books have believers?!

I see.........

I get your point now although I still disagree. I am not going to arrogantly say that you are wrong to believe in Tolkiens works as you can worship/ have faith in anything that you want to. That is the basic right of mankind afterall.

I hope I have understood your last post and I haven't made an idiot out of myself!!

If you want to discuss this further, start another thread and I will join that conversation.

[telperion]

thnx , for your understanding ....but i have no desire to "threadisize" everyone's filosophy in life , just because there could be no discussion about that.....

i would like to know ,however, how everyones love for tolkien became to xist to their status quo..but, manifestations have 2b stated , not debated...

i'm thinking of starting a thread theme but it all comes so close with what you personally do with the wisdom of the books , or even the wisdom of the elves ... and that's a bit of my fear also :i start to believe in elves , and that's just plain silly isn't it??????:confused: :)

[fëanáro]

well, all of you that have posted i wanna say that all points of view are valids.
no religion is the greatest or the right one.

when i write uppercase or exclamation points (!) i was just trying to note the importan points from my message, not trying to make it more valid than any of your messages and points of view.

I understand completely all the analogy (and i think everyone understands it) between bible and simarillion, and i wanted to make sure , or let me put it this way: as a catholic i felt obligated to tell you:
(maybe convince you, but not obligate you to belive me or to say im the one who is right)
analogies can be made with the bible, but we must not misunderstand that the Bible is deep and profound and has many meanings and is the basis (old testament many more) of the religions (3) of millions of people. Millions of people live by it and believe it means so many more things than you can imagine.

and here is when i tal about tolkien (my point of view): tolkiens world came from one mans head, it was one man´s dream and fulfillment, it was a fantasy some one created. Sure it is deep (not as the Bible , not even close) and has meanings and has lots of uses and sure the elfs are a race to admire and follow, i believe it is true. Everyone has the right to believe and follow what/who ever he/she wants to.
but PLZ dont say tolkien´s planet is as deep as the Bible, coz I think you don´t know what you´re talking about.

[Grond]

fëanáro, I think one of the problems we are encountering in this thread is one of language. Apparently Spanish is your native language and I am not getting my message across.

First, personally, I do not believe that The Silmarillion has any of the importance of the Bible. I am a Christian and the Bible is sacrosanct (holy! holy! holy!) to me. I was simply saying that what the Bible is to us on Earth, The Silmarillion is to the people of Middle-earth. Get it? The Bible is our real guide in our real world. The Silmarillion was the people of Middle-earth's biblical history of their fictional world. In this case...... real is definately more important than fiction.... but The Silmarillion is a very deep and thought provoking book from the perspective of Middle-earth just as the Bible is a very deep (yes deeper than the Silmarillion) and thought provoking guide for us on Earth.

I hope you understand the message. I never compared the Sil to the Bible in a "real" sense. I was just saying that it was a type of Biblical History of Middle-earth!


:)

[telperion]

Originally posted by fëanáro
[
but PLZ dont say tolkien´s planet is as deep as the Bible, coz I think you don´t know what you´re talking about. [/B]

????that's an contradiction in terms when you claim at the same time that everyone has the right to believe in everything they want...
does the word supremacy say anything to you??
and what if i believe in "the grain of sand" the holy one , grond.... would you consider me a fool?? when you refuse to see the synthesis of the whole plan even christianity becomes useless....
and weren't you the one grond that wished , a few posts ago , that ME was somewhere around? well what if it is ? will you all wake up and smell the coffee!!!wake up and know there is no truth...

[Merry]

:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

This is turning into the X-Files....

[telperion]

no truth other than we make up for ourselves...:rolleyes:

(btw i'm thinking of scully as my virgin mary;)

[Thorin]

tel, if truth is relative, then I guess no one can tell me or you what is right or wrong...

That seems like an anarchistic philosophy to me. There is no right or wrong...no sin, therefore, no accountability or repentance necessary.

Society, therefore, has no right to dictate to me what I should or should not follow and I follow their laws simply out of convenience, not from a sense of right or wrong or morality's sake...

Is that the philosophy that you adhere to?

[telperion]

no nono, i do not .Simply because the anarchy statement forgets that we must share the little space we live in and we must have compromise....but most importantly , an anarchist would even object to a society that is correct and true to the anarchists heart...!!!an anarchist isn't even necessarliy an pacifist.
a truth can be absolute when an hunger is stilled for further truth...
even gandalf said to saruman;"one that breaks to see what it is has left the path of the wise."....
and i don't believe an anarchist would deal out of convenience ,do you?
and to deny moral is to deny we were once without conciousness i.e. animals...

[Grond]

Tel, apparently the difference in us is that I am grounded in my faith in God and His word. That is my spiritual base. It doesn't mean that my physical/non-spiritual side can't wish for a place that I am not sure my God hasn't created in another iteration.

We live on one plane and are grounded in the beliefs of that plane. Who is to say that my God hasn't created other planes.....yes, maybe even Middle-earth. My belief is that He is the God of Abraham here in this world, maybe he is Eru/Iluvator in another.

[telperion]

that's so judgemenatal of you i have never stated my beliefs anywhere , simply because you have never asked me , yuo on the other hand shout abraham in my face......phhhhh:mad:

[Grond]

tel, I apologize for offending you with my beliefs. I have edited my last post to amplify and explain "my beliefs" are not fact to anyone but me. The reason it came up was because someone else brought it up. The author of this thread is the one who questioned my analogy of the Sil to the Bible. If you don't like the direction the author of the thread is taking it, hit the road and find a thread to which you can make a meaningful contibution.

Shame on you for not being able to debate civilly. I did not shout Abraham in your face, I stated my belief. You don't like it, put me on your ignore list.;)

[telperion]

fist of all you did not offend me . you sais there was a difference between us whlie you do not even know what i stand for .......ever thought of that? apparently not. fact remains that christianity is thrown in my face every time...

[fëanáro]

Grond, you are totally right, maybe i went to far in my explanations but you made my point of view more clear.
i understood in your message that somehow everything is but at their leves. Bible with reality; and simarillion with fantasy(tolkien´s world). thats the point i tried to tell everyone when i talked about analogies with the Bible.

and yes i knew that maybe it was going to be a problem to put under "location:" MEXICO. but maybe a handicap. i dont try to use Mexico or spanish as a shield, but english is my second language and although i lived in Wisconsin for two years i dont have full dominion of the language, i try my best.

and Telperion i knew those last words i put in my thread about how i THOUGHT that you talking that way about the Bible showed how little idea you had about it. and i still believe it. anyway as you said anyone has the right to believe in anything he/she wants to. so don´t complain about that statement.

also silly of you for complaining about how everyone shout´s Christianity and also Abraham to your face because your complaining about (almost) 2/3 of the world's population and you'll always have to live with it because you´ll always have to deal with a christian, jew or muslim. anyway you have the right to complain about anything you want to, but i was just saying.

[Samwise_hero]

OK guys just out of curiosity how did this discussio go from me trying to find out more about the Silmilarion to the Bible To the X-files.
I'm not trying to dis the Bible because i hate it when people do that. I'm a Christian myself.
I believe Tolkien had to be the best ever writer and all but i don't see how his book can be anything like the Bible.
The silmilarion is Fantasy, someone's or many peoples dream. But he Bible is the truth and nothing else. Not fantasy not lies, the complete and utter truth.

[Beleg Strongbow]

How many times have you read the Silmarillion? I've read it bout 27 times. And how old are you? I'm 14.

[DGoeij]

I don't think the complete and utter truth is in any writing.
No offence meant to those who use the Bible for gaining insight and wisdom, but it is a story, written down by humans, mostly used in an admirable way, sometimes used in a very bad way.

one could use the Bible to explain the nature of te Sil, like Grond did, but there's no need to go in any deeper than that.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Samwise_hero
OK guys just out of curiosity how did this discussio go from me trying to find out more about the Silmilarion to the Bible To the X-files.
I'm not trying to dis the Bible because i hate it when people do that. I'm a Christian myself.
I believe Tolkien had to be the best ever writer and all but i don't see how his book can be anything like the Bible.
The silmilarion is Fantasy, someone's or many peoples dream. But he Bible is the truth and nothing else. Not fantasy not lies, the complete and utter truth. Apparently, you haven't read the content of the posts Samwise_hero. If you had, you would have known that I wasn't comparing the Bible to the Sil in a spiritual sense, simply stating that the Sil is a biblical history of Middle-earth in a similar way to the Bible being a biblical history of the people of the God of Abraham.

I have stated that I am a Christian and that the Bible means more to me spiritually but the Sil is none the less a similar type document. He who argues differently is looking at the works with blinders.

BTW Samwise-hero, welcome to the forum.

[fëanáro]

Dgoeij when you said that the Bible is written by men you were right , but for us believers it was written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost (who is actually GOD), so it holds the truth. Many people believe that God wrote it through men. So that´s why it is for the believers a book of truth.

juts wanted to make that clear.

[telperion]

do you question your truths? i make out of your posts feanaro that you follow and swallow too much...
be humble and learn so much more...

[fëanáro]

telperion what did u mean with "do you question your truths?"
and whad did u mean with "you follow and swallow too much"?

and where did i show no humbleness?
i thought i was quite open minded even with religious isues.

[Firiel]

Originally posted by Samwise_hero
I just finished reading the lord of the rings and i started the silmillarion but i just can't get into it. What's it all about

Getting back to the origional post...

If you are having trouble with the Silmarilion but are curious, I would advise reading it backwards.

Start with "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". It will draw you in by giving you more information about what you already know, and begin getting you used to the narative voice, (which is very different from the voice you find in a novel!)

Then read the Akallabeth. This is stuff that was hinted at in LotR, and is alluded to more in "Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age". This is the tale of the Downfall of Numenor.

Then you can go back to the beginning read (or re-read) the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, but don't expect to be able to keep all the names strait yet! (Lots of names, and the more important the character, the more names they have, in vairous languages....). You can always re-read this later.

By now it should be easier to start on the Silmarilion proper.

Don't expect to absorb everything the first time through... don't worry, there's no quiz at the end. And after you get through it once, it's easier the next time you read it.

[DGoeij]

No offence meant Fëanáro, I just stated my opinion, I can respect someone for using the Bible as a guideline, I just do not wish so myself.

Firiel, reading the last chapters first is a great idea. It will make the connection with LOTR more evident and the understanding of the first chapters a little more easy. I haven't done it myself but I can see the good thinking in it. :)

[Merry]

DGoeij

I agree with your signiture, make beer, not war! I have stopped commenting on others beliefs as it just starts conflict.

[telperion]

for one , you say that "many people believe_____so that's why" that's swallowing ....and you have underrated the SIL in respect to your book , that's not humble to my opinion....

[fëanáro]

Dgoeij no offense taken. I Try not to take every opinion different than mine as an offense, with some exceptions.

Telperion, yes i said "many people believe.... so that´s why ...for the believers...." I was talking in plural and I considered myself among those "believers". If you question the truth in that statement ask any christian or catholic priest about it.

And I stated that when Dgoeij wrote what he thought about the Bible and how he thought it was written by men as any other book. I just tried to tell him what I heard at Sunday´s mass ( where [my religion´s] believers go). They always say "the word of the Lord" or something like that.

And sorry about underrating the Silmarillion, I never meant to be disrespectful. Within my beliefs the Silmarillion is beneath the Bible because the weight (meaning not the actual physical weight) that the Bible carries for me and many many other people.

Again, it doesn´t mean the Bible is better written or anything like that, nor that I don´t respect Tolkien and his works.(Because I do). It´s just that I believe the Bible is deeper and has many more meanings than the Silmarillion and that worldwise it is more important and many other reasons I´ve said before.

I´ve said I love the Silmarillion and that I don´t think it is a moral or ethical book, although for many people it is. I´ve said my reasons and I´m tired of arguing it over and over.

Sorry If I´ve shown no respect for any of your messages, but wasn´t my intention. I tried to be persuassive and convincing with my statements but i guess I pushed it over a little and I failed. At the end I just kept trying to defend my point of view but keeps being questionable and I guess it is because it just is, and that´s the nature of what we have argued about all these days.

I just wanna make peaces with everyone. ;)

[Mighty Sam]

well i was wondering, cause i don't have the book what the silmaillian is about?? thanx

[Thorondor]

First I would say to look in the Silmarillion section of this board, there probably is a thread there about this already. Secondly I would think a Mod could move this thread there (as that is the rightfull place for it). And thirdly the question. . .
The Silmarillion is a history of the Creation of Middle-earth, and the waking of Elves and Men. Mostly focused on the Elves though. It is a excellent read(I just finished it again this afternoon) and explains many useful things brought up in the LotR, such as who is Sauron, Beren and Luthien Tiniuvel, what a balrog is, and also the general histories of people like Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and their family histories. Hope that helps!:)

[telperion]

pieces of peace , i like that one;)

[Tyaronumen]

Humans would do good to remember that whether you believe in the Christian model of the Universe or some other model, the very world upon which we live remains but a speck of sand on the beach of existence, much less those of us who inhabit this speck.

The human brain is a wonderful thing -- exceptional in it's capabilities. The rational framework that has been carefully crafted from the days of the Greek philosophers has aided greatly in our understanding of the natural world and in our ability to manipulate this natural world.

However, the human mind is limited in it's ability to comprehend. One of the clearest indicators of this is in the tendency of humans to label things... for instance if I say the word:


tree



An image comes to your mind of what we consider a tree... But there is a vast difference between the intellectual concept of 'tree' and an ACTUAL living, breathing entity, throbbing with life and vibrancy. No words can ever truly describe the _experience_ of being with this thing, which we call a tree. It must be done.

Likewise all of our concepts of God... the Bible, the Silmarillion, the Koran (no offense to any by putting the Sil in such vaunted company...), these are all differing ways of interpreting that which is unknown to mortal men, and is likewise in many ways unknowable. There is a huge difference between the intellectual concept of the first sextillionth second of existence and the actual event of the first sextillionth second of existence... this difference is the gap between experience and between description. The mind as it currently exists in almost all human beings (certainly may be exceptions) is incapable of truly comprehending EVERYTHING about even a single object, because things are happening at the micro and macro-molecular scales that are beyond the human ability to observe. Even as we learn more and more with our scientific tools, the only thing we are really discovering is that each answered questions raises two more questions of increasing complexity.

Ah well. Sorry to lay down such heavy concepts with these poor words.

[Fingolfin]

Ai. I must say that I have never read the Silmarillion more than 4 times at most. I do enjoy picking it up and just reading random chapters however. I more involved with learning the elvish languages. I'm 14 years old.
By the way, Beleg Cuthalion is one of my favorite characters. You have good taste.

[DGoeij]

Wow, to quote another great piece of work: 'There is no spoon.'

Samwise, read the Sil, have fun, and use the advise from Firiel, last chapters first.

[Brown Ribbon]

Originally posted by Samwise_hero
I just finished reading the lord of the rings and i started the silmillarion but i just can't get into it. What's it all about

Samwise
to answer your question (since you seem to have unwittingly started a holy war here ;) ), The Silmarilion is very much what you make it.

I have read The Lord of the Rings twenty or more times, and every single time I swear I'm going to make a start on the Sil, but, until I while ago I'd be snoozing before the end of the first chapter.

I don't claim any religious allegiance, the opening of the Sil, is, to me necessary background material. Any similarities to the bible are incidental, though I concede that to someone who takes joy from the bible the opening chapter of the Sil may awaken keener interest.

The thing is, if you just want a cracking story, then you do get it in the Sil. For me, it really starts when the elves come to Middle Earth. It takes a while, but you do have to get through the first bit to know who they are, why they're there, what odds they're up against and why they don't always get along with each other.

Once they get to Middle Earth we see them building the great elven realms, being assailed by Morgoth, Balrogs, Dragons and all.

The thing about the Sil is that it doesn't paint the elves out to be nearly as wise and good as they are in LOTR. They make mistakes, some of them are downright nasty, and the tales of Men in the Eldar days are also worth reading.

Honestly, just struggle through it for a couple of hours, I bet you'll change your mind

cheers

[Merry]

Originally posted by Brown Ribbon


Any similarities to the bible are incidental, though I concede that to someone who takes joy from the bible the opening chapter of the Sil may awaken keener interest.



I don't well up with religious pride when I read the Sil, it was just a way of illustrating the style of it. I (and Grond) could possibly have used a History book to describe it but I felt that referring to it as the bible would have made the point clearer.

I am finding the Sil fascinating because it sets the scene for LOTR. I agree that LOTR should be read first. :)

Tyaronumen, interesting post!!

[Brown Ribbon]

Originally posted by Merry


I don't well up with religious pride when I read the Sil, it was just a way of illustrating the style of it. I (and Grond) could possibly have used a History book to describe it but I felt that referring to it as the bible would have made the point clearer.

I am finding the Sil fascinating because it sets the scene for LOTR. I agree that LOTR should be read first. :)

Tyaronumen, interesting post!!

I'm not suggesting that, Merry, please accept my apologies if that's how my comments seem. I'm not trying to bash anyone's faith, nor even to comprehend it as it is a deeply personal thing.

I do believe there are parallels between The Beginning of Days and Genesis that one more learned in the Bible than I, might derive greater interest from

[telperion]

ok , most defenitly agree with tyrannumen here. He took up the fathoming of the brain, or it;s feeble attempt thereof.....but to me the mystery seems closer and is already there in the word "tree"
the only science we can reach out to is the science of our language...i think therefor i speak... and the one thing we all have in common here is the love of the combination of words of tolkien...i "believe"(i speak so i subject myself to the first mystery of mankind's irrationality)that we must not , at least fo now, seek farther for the thing that makes us love these words.For me it was the words in the first place, second reason was that i was fourteen when i read it ,third, i read first the hobbit then LOTR and then SIL and then LT,UT HOME LOB ADVOTB etcetcetc..and the weather that day was nice , i don't know , and may be the bible was read that beautiful day too by someone else...the question is:who will be more likely to survive no matter what but if something happens... :confused:

[fëanáro]

who what?
what do u mean when u say who?
what would happen?

the way u stated your question brought me some confusing ideas.

[telperion]

who of us ... i mean a mouse or a giant or a bug perhaps...or u or me for that matter;)

[fëanáro]

only GOD knows , i think

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Fingolfin
Ai. I must say that I have never read the Silmarillion more than 4 times at most. I do enjoy picking it up and just reading random chapters however. I more involved with learning the elvish languages. I'm 14 years old.
By the way, Beleg Cuthalion is one of my favorite characters. You have good taste.


Me too!:D :D :D :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: Same as Fingolfin :cool: :cool:

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Thorondor
First I would say to look in the Silmarillion section of this board, there probably is a thread there about this already. Secondly I would think a Mod could move this thread there (as that is the rightfull place for it). And thirdly the question. . .
The Silmarillion is a history of the Creation of Middle-earth, and the waking of Elves and Men. Mostly focused on the Elves though. It is a excellent read(I just finished it again this afternoon) and explains many useful things brought up in the LotR, such as who is Sauron, Beren and Luthien Tiniuvel, what a balrog is, and also the general histories of people like Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and their family histories. Hope that helps!:)



Read the book . It is a great vast work definitelty worth reading!!!!:D : ;) ;) :D :) :D :) ;) ;)

[telperion]

who?

[fëanáro]

mm, sorry......ERU for you. only ERU knows.

[bunnywhippit]

I'll second that! It's an utterly beautiful, magnificent work of words. It expands your knowledge completely and suddenly LOTR takes on so much more meaning. Excellent :D

[telperion]

well, not exactly ... it's more like they both -can- not care...

[Fingolfin]

Lol, if you ask me, Thingol went wrong somewhere raising Turin.... That man just had killed to many people! Blame it on rage and madness they do... Beleg should not have ended by Turin. That's a sad part.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Fingolfin
Lol, if you ask me, Thingol went wrong somewhere raising Turin.... That man just had killed to many people! Blame it on rage and madness they do... Beleg should not have ended by Turin. That's a sad part.


It is. Beleg was Turin best freind and one of his ownly friends.

[Eärendil]

I've read the Silmarillion about 4 times and I'm 28. If you can get through the first 50 pages the first time then it becomes very enjoyable. The second and third times were great. GREAT BOOK!

[Fingolfin]

Same. At first I was a bit daunted by the book, at that time I new little about the elves and all the new info was almost overwhelming. But after the first 40-50 pages or so, it was great!

[Elbereth]

I must agree...The Simarillion is a wonderful novel. I just finished reading it two nights ago...very compelling stuff. I give it two thumbs up!!!

[Khamul]

I hate to say it but ive only read it once because i couldn't find it in my library until i found it in my school library

[legolaslove3791]

Well, I've only read it once also. It took a while to get past the first bit, then it got pretty good. I definitely will read it again, but I have some other books in line first. I'm 14.

[Kit Baggins]

I'm 15, and I'm reading the Sil for the first time. I tried reading it when I was about 13, got to about page 20 and gave up in utter confusion ;) .

~Kit :)

[Orome]

The first part is a little more confusing the rest. It gets a little easier later on and starts to flow better once the background is set up.

[Merry]

I'm 23 and have read it once. In fact, I only finished it last week!! It is a great book but very difficult to read. I will read it again after I finish LOTR again.

I may try the UT soon!

[Tulidian]

I'm fifteen and I've only read it once. I just got it a little while ago, but I can't wait to read it again after I finish this stupid school book im reading.

[Hama]

I picked up the Silmarillion rather late, at about 14 or 15, and I am 18 now. I've read it so many times I've lost count. I would estimate between sixteen and twenty-five times.

[Wood Elf]

More than halfway through, 1st time, and I'm 18. I had to put it down awhile, due to schoolwork, but shall resume again soon! Quite an intricate piece of work, but fills in oh so many details. I have a whole new respect for Galadriel, man has she seen a lot, and been through a lot! Whew! Ai! (I like saying that, ai! How is that pronounced?)

[Bucky]

>>> If you can get through the
first 50 pages the first time then it becomes very enjoyable. The second and
third times were great. GREAT BOOK!

I concure.
I read it 3 times before I had a clue what was going on.....

I had just finished The Hobbit & TLOR for the 1st or 2nd time, & had no idea the Silmarillion was coming out (16 at the time). My Mother brought it to me in early 1978 while I was in the hospitol recovering from knee surgery.

I guess I've read it 25 times, same as the other 4 books.
I start just the way Tolkien released them: Hobbit, TLOR, Silm.
When I get to the longer narratives on Tour & Turin from UT, I switch to those stories & then go back to The Silm.
I wish Toklien had had the time to write the whole book on the detailed level of those 2 stories. They're much more like TLOR & The Hobbit & less like the breif 'historical' accounts in the published Silmarillion.

[Niniel]

I'm 22, and I've just finished the Silmarillion for the first time. I didn't find it confusing at all, although the foreword by Christopher Tolkien warned that there 'was not to be looked for complete consistency'. My brother though is reading it as well (he's 16') and he does think there are too many confusing names in it.

[Bucky]

Don't forget that back in 1977-78, we didn't have sites like this; we were on our own.

And, we were all stoned back then......

[Thorondor]

I'm 20 and I have read it three times(in the last year).

[Maedhros]

Well, I´m actually thousands of years old and i have read it only once. I couldn´t get past the part when i threw myself in the "chasm of fire" at the end.:)

[Varda]

I'm 16 and I've read it once--I'm planning on reading it as many times as I can but I have a few other books (such as the long and arduous Don Quixote) I want to read also--I want to be somewhat diverse in my literary experiences

[Camille]

I am 25 and I have read it completelly 3 times, but I am always reading some chapters so I have to say many times!!!

[UngattTrunn475]

I'm reading it right now, and I'm 11.

[Legolam]

I finished the Sil for the first time about a month ago (I'm 19) and I'm now ploughing through UT (ha I'm beating you, Merry!), although I think I might go back and read the Sil again because I've forgotten everything that happened. Also, people seem to be saying that it gets easier to understand it, so I should give it another shot.

[tasar]

I'm 17 and I've read it twice. Right now I'm reading the UT and it's different cause I'm actually trying to read it in English (which is not my native language, if anyone doesn't know).

[Gamil Zirak]

I've only read the Sil once. In fact, I just finished it in March. I didn't realize that such a book existed until last June. I'm 22 now.

[Aldanil]

I just finished rereading The Silmarillion for the third time last week during my school's spring break. I'm forty-seven now, and got a hardcover copy of the first edition as a Christmas present from my favorite aunt nearly twenty-five years ago.

[Istar]

I'm 15. I'm about halfway through 1st time - I just finished the chapter "Of Maeglin" and I find occasionally I have to refer to the index/glossary in the back. That's probably because I read maybe a page every day between classes and on the bus.

[Eldanor]

I'm 16 and I've read it about 6 or 8 times, or more, I don't remember very well. I REALLY would like to read the UT (Can anybody tell me what are those tales about?).
The Sil is incredible. It's like an elvish chronicle of the earth, from the beginning of the beginning to the end of the 3rd age. It's "dense", compared with LOTR. I always see something new on it.

[tasar]

Originally posted by Eldanor
I REALLY would like to read the UT (Can anybody tell me what are those tales about?).

UT is about the same thing as the Sil and the LotR, it simply gives extra information abot some stuff. I haven't really got to the end yet myself.

[elvish-queen]

The title says it all!
I finished the Sil 2 nights ago, but I found it slightly confusing. Time moves so fast, and one whole elf life takes up a chapter or less! And then there's the lines, "and that one married this one and had these children, and the children married those ones and had these children but that one died in this war / battle / friendly game with orcs........."
Quite confusing if you ask me!
Are you supposed to remember all that when you've finished the book, or do I need to study more???
I found the part about the 4th age and the battle of the ring helpful, though, it kinda summarises LotR...

[Úlairi]

I didn't have too much trouble with the Sil, I quite enjoyed it. elvish-queen, if you want to make big posts and such like Grond, Ancalagon, Maehdros, Greenwood, Bucky (sometimes, and those whom I have forgotten speak now or forever hold your peace) and I then you will have to remember it fairly well in answer to your question. I never found the Sil confusing but I suppose that's just me. :p :) ;)

[Rangerdave]

The Sil confused the dogsnot out of me the first time I read it. For my defense, I tried to do the academic "scan it" technique. Bad idea.
When I had time to read it again at leisure, it all made perfect sense. So my advice would be to take it slow and make sure you don't skip over anything important.

RD

[Hirila]

elvish-queen:
"and that one married this one and had these children, and the children married those ones and had these children but that one died in this war / battle / friendly game with orcs........."

You think this is confusing? Ha!
That's nothing in comparison to the Bible! Read the books Genesis and Exodus and you will find much, much, much... more stuff of that kind than you can imagine! I once tried to read the Bible from beginning to the end, no way you gonna do it. You'll stop at the prophets if not much sooner.
The Sil is an adventure almost as great as the Bible but luckily much more easier written and readable!

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Hirila
elvish-queen:


You think this is confusing? Ha!
That's nothing in comparison to the Bible! Read the books Genesis and Exodus and you will find much, much, much... more stuff of that kind than you can imagine! I once tried to read the Bible from beginning to the end, no way you gonna do it. You'll stop at the prophets if not much sooner.
The Sil is an adventure almost as great as the Bible but luckily much more easier written and readable!

No need to have a go at her Hirila. The Bible is a lot more confusing than 'The Silmarilion', but what in Eru's name does that have anything to do with this thread?

[Hirila]

Sorry, didn't want to go at anyone!

I just wanted to say that the Sil for me wasn't as confusing as for others. I think there are books you will even stop reading because you don't know what you're in. E.g. the Bible, or Ulysses, too. Great books. But I know noone who ever read them to the end. It is much easier to read the Sil.

And Ulairi: I responded to the fact that elvish-queen thought the Sil so confusing. I only gave my opinion on that point. I'm sorry, if anyone understood that as an attack.

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Hirila
And Ulairi: I responded to the fact that elvish-queen thought the Sil so confusing. I only gave my opinion on that point. I'm sorry, if anyone understood that as an attack.

My apologies Hirila. I also did not find the Sil confusing as I posted above. Your opinion is valid and I apologise for my misinterpretation of your post. :)

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Wanna try something really confusing? Try reading the Sil until you understand it, then wait about a week, and go to the book store. Buy copies of the Books of Lost Tales. These are the orriginal writings that were turned into the silmarillion. The names of everything is switched around, and... just a really big headache, a really big one.

[Úlairi]

That is exactly what I did Elessar, and I couldn't agree more. The main writings of Tolkien are completely distorted by the first few chapters of the book. That is a really big headache. Grond suggests that those who wish to read HoME should read the books backwards, from Volume 12 to Volume 1.

[Hirila]

I'm still stuck in the second volume of the Book of Lost Tales. I can't make myself read more at the moment. But that's right. The BoLT is confusing if you try to read it as prequel to all what comes later.
My trick to make it more understandable is to read it not with the original (or rather the later) names in mind but with a map in front of you. This way you have a real picture of what is happening where. You can imagine that much easier than some names to which you don't have a face.

[elvish-queen]

Ok, so I'm just dumb!:(
I never thought I was dumb, but now all is revealed... I'm only 14, and I never really planned to read the bible this year at least.
I suppose I'll read the sil again (not right now with my concussion) but maybe I shouldn't bother if I'm so stupid!
:( :( :(
My teachers don't tell me I'm stupid....
*runs out crying*

[elvish-queen]

Sorry, I really am a bit cranky, I fell off a horse yesterday and have quite bad concussion and am bruised sore and stiff.
Sorry if I was mean... I didn't mean it...
I'm not a mean person.:D
Sorry.

[Hirila]

Now don't be silly!
Just spend more time here and with the books and soon you will even impress ReadWryt with your knowledge about all that concerns ME.;) And let that Bible stuff out of here. I know it was a real stupid example. Forget it. Forget everything except ME. Only that matters!

[¤-Elessar-¤]

lol, yes, backwards might work. I just have to find the last books, you'd be surprised how hard it is to find good literature here in Arkansas...

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by elvish-queen
Ok, so I'm just dumb!:(
I never thought I was dumb, but now all is revealed... I'm only 14, and I never really planned to read the bible this year at least.
I suppose I'll read the sil again (not right now with my concussion) but maybe I shouldn't bother if I'm so stupid!
:( :( :(
My teachers don't tell me I'm stupid....
*runs out crying*

Hey, at least it's better than you teachers keeping you in after lesson when you want to go to lunch so badly and they sit there telling you how brilliant you are for 20 or so minutes. And all your thinking about is taking a bite of the succulent sandwich that your mother so carefull prepared for you. It was my first day back and my Geography teacher talks to me after the lesson about my ;evel of intelligence and how my work is of University standard and yarda, yarda, yarda.

[Prince Legolas]

I'm 20 and I'm in the process of reading the Sil. for the first time. I'm just over halfway through and enjoying it very much.

[ReadWryt]

How many times have I read the Silmarillon? I think alltogether, if you count all the myriad times I simply started out to look for a particular passage to find an answer to some question and ended up getting sucked into it for 20 or 30 pages more, I've read it 6 times...as for what age I am, why...Fourth Age of course silly, nobody is still alive from the Third Age!

[Goldberry]

I'm older than dirt but I've only read it twice. I marvel at how many times some folks have read it.

[Rangerdave]

:) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D ;)
Show off


RD

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Rangerdave
:) :D :) :D :) :D :) :D ;)
Show off


RD

Sorry shouldn't have posted that. It will raise a few eyebrows and people will think that Ulairi is once again off on his high horse. What I posted was true however, yet I did not really wish to sound proud, and I suppose it comes across that way.

[Hirila]

Hey, why not show off a bit.
:confused:
This is what I cannot understand: That you hardly can be proud of what you have achieved without being called a show-off by others. :mad:

I want to show that I have achieved something with the work I did. Why can't we just accept it that others have earned their praise?

[Rangerdave]

Yeah! what he said.

If you got it, flaunt it

RD:D

[Úlairi]

Originally posted by Hirila
Hey, why not show off a bit.
:confused:
This is what I cannot understand: That you hardly can be proud of what you have achieved without being called a show-off by others. :mad:

I want to show that I have achieved something with the work I did. Why can't we just accept it that others have earned their praise?

Yes, but one can't be too proud. I have learnt that the hard way.

[Hirila]

Sorry if you had had bad experiences with showing you're proud of yourself, I had, too.
And that's exactly why I don't like this habit of rebuking those who want to show the world, that they achieved something. I know many will find this not so good, but I do. When I did something right, when I did something really well I want to tell it and want people to tell me I did it fine. And I do the same if someone tells me how proud he is of this or that.

[Rangerdave]

You have to understand my slightly odd sense of humor.

I only call someone a show off when they have performed or demontarted something rather spectacular. Especially if it is something that I personally find dificult or imposible.

So a tip for all those out there on understand Davelish (Dave's English) When I say "showoff" you hear "good job".

I guess Its kind of like the diference between American Cookies and English Biscuists.


RD

[Hirila]

And you're bringing in Ozzie Donuts! :D

We got you.

[Diabless]

Just started reading it after reading LOTR twice in a row.
I am on page 73, Of the Darkening of Valinor. It's fascinating!:D

[Anarchist]

To get back to the point of this thread, I also found The Silmarillion a bit confusing. I started reading it carefully in order to remember all the names. But at a point, I started forgetting a lot of things. Thank God there is a list of names at the end of the book. I admit I had difficulties understanding where on ME the map was placed and what was its relation with the maps in the LOTR.

[Úlairi]

Some people have told me in the past that in order to remeber the names of certain characters they wrote them down and gave a small description of them. So, when a name popped up that they didn't remember, they went and looked the name up where they had written it down. I thought that that was a brilliant idea.

[Nom]

Originally posted by elvish-queen
Ok, so I'm just dumb!:(
I never thought I was dumb, but now all is revealed... I'm only 14, and I never really planned to read the bible this year at least.
I suppose I'll read the sil again (not right now with my concussion) but maybe I shouldn't bother if I'm so stupid!
:( :( :(
My teachers don't tell me I'm stupid....
*runs out crying*

You don't need to feel that you're stupid. There's no way that any of these guys didn't feel some confusion when they first read TS. The first time anyone opens that book and begins 'The Ainulindale' - confusion is experienced. You're not alone, we were all there once. Read it again, it gets easier.

[Turgon]

That's true Nom. I felt the same when I first read the Sil - especially in the earlier parts. The more you read it though the better it gets - until finally you'll think it's the greatest thing you've ever read... The depth and scope - the ironies and tragedies. It takes a few readings - but it's well worth it...

[Nom]

Absolutely Turgon. If you want to understand the intricacies and the background of Lord of The Rings, it's a must-read. But it's not easy. First time I read it (or attempted it) I, too, was 14. It took me several tries to get through The Ainulindale. But get through I did, and was richly rewarded. I've had many people from many different walks of life express the same thing. Even the professor at the college where I did my Grad. dip. Ed. expressed that he was initially frustrated with the style of The Ainulindale.
I just don't believe that somebody could coast through it and not find that confusing/frustrating.

[Úlairi]

What was your degree for Norn?

[Nom]

I have two degrees and a Graduate diploma of Education. The degrees are in English Literature, and Drama. The Grad. dip. Ed. is in English/Drama/English Lit., with minors in History and Physical Education.
Currently I'm working in ESL training in Japan...

[Hirila]

:confused: To tell the truth... I was not confused when I read the Ainulindale.

I don't know why. I think I simply didn't expect something "normal". I started the book and saw it began with some sort of creation. And why should this creation be intelligible?

I know this sounds crazy, in fact I think I am crazy, but that is the way and the reason I began the Sil. And I seriously enjoyed it. Including all its "confusion" I never really perceived.

[Turgon]

It's not so much that the Ainulindale is confusing first time around - as a creation myth it makes as much sense as any other - more that it's hard to fully understand straight away. There are passages in it which refer to future events - The Third Theme of Iluvatar for instance...
... It seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its chief beauty came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamourous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern
This passage in one broad sweep, fortells, amonst other things, The Long Defeat, The Joining of the Houses of the Eldar and the Edain, The Fading of the Elves and the Dominion of Men... which is not easy to pick up on on first reading...

[Hirila]

Sure you cannot interpret what you learn about the music when you read it for the first time. But you don't have to. It all comes when you read further on.
I remember that when I first read that the first world the Vala had made was destroyed by Melkor I suddenly realised that this what had been told in musical themes in the Ainulindale. It was like waking up. Suddenly the themes were not only themes, were no music any more, were a myth.
And myths tell stories in a mysterious way, don't they? ;) This simply makes them myths.

[Nom]

Then I think you must have tried it the first time as an adult, or if you did as a child, mayhaps in the joyous rapture that follows when reading the later chapters, you have forgotten the initial difficulties;) ...
No matter... a great read.

[Hirila]

That's right. I only read it when I was 15. Since then several times. And each times I find other details I did not notice before. This book, just all the other books by Tolkien, have so much to say that you can read them a hundred times and each time find something new in them. Fantastic!

[Samwise_hero]

:o i started reading it again and it's now more understandable. thanks for all your input i really appreciated it. thanks:D :p :rolleyes: :cool:

[Theoden]

I am asking you bookworms if it is worth it... I have never read the Silmarillion, and am trying to decide if I should.

[Rangerdave]

Very much worth reading, but I should warn you that this is not a easy work and assuredly not a week-end read. But don't let that daunt you. If you have any questions feel free to post. There are some wonderfully helpful and knowlidgible people lurking around here.

RD

[Merry]

Please read it! It opens up Tolkiens works and LOTR becomes ever more real to you.

Enjoy.

[DGoeij]

If you wish to know more about ME and the background of some of the characters from LOTR it'surely worth reading.
Personally the style in which it was written gave me some trouble, but reading it in small doses as RD and Walter said is definately the best way.

[tasar]

There is no way one should not read the Silmarillion. For me, it just goes with the Lotr like socks go with boots...
Imagine a Tolkien-fan who doesn't know who Luthien is? Or what on Middle-Earth are the Silmarils?

[Theoden]

Thanx you guys! This is great! I will go and buy is as soon as I can.

[Grond]

I've given this advice before but it still holds true. Read Of the Rings of Power first. It is more closely related to the LotR and will keep your interest as it is about a subject that is near and dear to your heart. Then move to the Akallabeth which gives the history of Numenor and explains the origins of the peoples who began the realms of Gondor and Arnor. I would then suggest you read the Quenta Silmarillion. It is filled with short stories about the First Age and explains how the world of Middle-earth came to be, the history of the Noldor (a branch of Elves aka Galadriel), and gives an accounting of the Higher powers of Middle-earth and the story of the first and greatest Dark Lord Melkor of whom Sauron was but a servant.

I would not tackle the first two books of the Silmarillion until the end. They read more like a biblical account and inundate you with names and histories that are hard to follow... but as everyone else has said... once you get going, you will love understanding the rhyme behind the reason. You'll understand why the Elves shout the name of "Elbereth Githoniel" when in danger. It will also give you hints as to the origins of orcs and trolls and dwarves. It is a must read.

BTW, first edition hardbacks of the Silmarillion are available on Ebay for as little as $10.00. It is well worth that and will be treasure to cherish. :)

[Samwise_hero]

Someone mentioned before that they hoped that Tolkien's world was real well it kind of is reall it's found in NZ! I didn't realize it for a while but NZ does fit the description of middle earth really well. i was in NZ a couple of months before the movie came out and it's so peaceful and ancient that it almost feels like middle earth. Freaky i know.

[Flame of Anor]

Yes it is worth reading. I just bought it and am somewhere between pg. 50 and 75 and so far it is pretty good.

-Flame

[Mighty Sam]

:confused: alright I want to know what book(s) is/are the best to read if I want read a more detailed narratives of: the Fall of Gondonlin, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, the War of the Wrath, and basicly any extended tales of those in the Sil. alright got that all?? thanx for your help as always.

[Aredhel]

That's exactly what I did. I re-read it several times(the LOTR) and the Silmarillion 3 times. One time I read it in a week. I think it was the last time. But one day,