New Debate

[pohuist]

This debate is only open for journeymen and apprentices.

Judges: all masters, experts (you know who you are) and poll. This way we all will be able to participate.

Team A:
Confusticated, Winged Elf, Vicerous Daydark, Nenya Evenstar, kazren, Samwise_hero, Gate7ole, Muffinly, Beleg

Team B:
Buu, Lhunithiliel, Iron Maiden, Nevavarein, Gil-Galad, Eledhwen, Anamatar IV, Alcfalath

Sting and Millena once you rank is determined, if you qualify for the debate, you should join Team B.

Topic: "Is the Ring Sentient" or in simpler terms (Can the Ring Think?)

Team A: Yes
Team B: No

As in previous debate(s) there is no right and wrong position, so, I personally will be looking for debating skills -- correct presentation of facts, persuasion and pre-empting contr-arguments. Please try to keep your comments to 15 lines -- there are (hopefully) a lot of people debating. Avoid lengthy quotes -- 3 lines or less should suffice. The only books allowed are LOTR and the Hobbit. You should be able to find all necessary information there. Happy debating:)

[Nóm]

Bilbo kept the Ring in his pocket for many years but only when he needed to hide from Gollum did it slip onto his finger. The One Ring knew that it could never get back to Sauron if it remained with Gollum, it was able to think of a solution: Hide the Hobbit!. Just as it thought to fall from Gollum and onto the floor for Bilbo to Find it. The books are full of this sort of thing. The One Ring must have been aware of what was going on around it and thought of ways to get it's self nearer to Sauron.

(Cripes! I had to edit this to make it shorter!)

[Eledhwen]

The One Ring can not think any more than a nail decides to respond to the pull of a magnet. Sauron is doing all the thinking - the ring contains his malice, but malice is not thought it is emotion. It is Sauron's thought that causes the Ring to slip from it's bearer's finger, and Sauron's thought, via the Nazgul, that almost cause him to give himself away. This is evidenced by Frodo's ability to remove the ring on Amon Hen even though the eye was searching for him. If the ring was sentient, he would not have been able to do that.

[gate7ole]

First, that the ring is sentient, doesn’t mean that it enslaves the bearer. It just compels him to act at its wish. So that Frodo managed to remove the ring on Amon Hen, it only proves Frodo’s strong mind. Let’s return to the Hobbit’s facts. We read at LOTR:

It was not Gollum, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.

This is spoken by Gandalf himself who declares that actually the Ring decided to leave Gollum. And Sauron at the moment couldn’t know in what position was the ring. He only searched for it. So, the ring acted independently and measuring the situation, it DECIDED to leave the cave and Gollum.

[Nenya Evenstar]

To further the arguments of my most excellent team members concerning the Ring abondoning it's bearer in an effort to return to Sauron, I would like to add the fact that the Ring grew and shrank in size. It was able to grow or expand in order to slip off a certain finger - a sure sign that the Ring was trying on its own to get back to it's master. If an object is able to determine by itself when to change size, then the only possible conclusion is that the object can make decisions on it's own. This is a quality of thought, and only things which are able to think can accomplish this.

[Nevavarein]

it was the ring who decided things, but not because it can think. The ring was drawn toward Sauron, since Sauron is the maker of the One Ring. Sauron must have some connection with the ring to draw it. And because of that, the ring doesnt think. IT is sauron and power which draws the ring towards him.

[Alcfalath]

Book I: Chapter II: Shadow of the Past
'Yes, to Mordor,' said Gandalf. 'Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons.

In evil hands it might have done great evil. Worst of all, it might have fallen into the hands of the Enemy. Indeed it certainly would; for this is the One, and he is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself.

Sauron is drawing the ring to him, not the Ring searching for Sauron. Therefore the Ring doesn't have a mind of its own.

[Eledhwen]

If an object is able to determine by itself when to change size, then the only possible conclusion is that the object can make decisions on it's own.
All metals have this capacity. The force or energy that causes it is external. Sauron was that external force for the One Ring. Why didn't the ring shrink to stop Frodo from getting it off his finger on Amon Hen? Because it couldn't.

[Nóm]

Posted by Eledhwen
All metals have this capacity. The force or energy that causes it is external.
The cause was not Sauron but the situation that the Ring was in. Sauron did not know the situation, the One Ring did. Bilbo also said that Ring seemed to change weight. The Ring was no ordinary chunk of metal.
Posted by Eledhwen
Why didn't the ring shrink to stop Frodo from getting it off his finger on Amon Hen? Because it couldn't.
That proves nothing for either of our arguements. Why didn't Sauron make it shrink then?
posted by Alcfalath
Sauron is drawing the ring to him, not the Ring searching for Sauron.
If Sauron drawing something means that Sauron does all the thinking then what of this : The Ring Draws the wraiths. Does that mean the Ring does the thinking for them?

[Lhunithiliel]

I am signing in the debate for Team B
with a quote from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Sixth edition, year 2000:
: sentient adj. = able to see or feel things through the senses
Whatever you say, Team "A", but the Ring had NEITHER senses , NOR abilities to see or feel.
If you suggest that this object has had such abilities, then you are saying that it was the RING who ruled over ME, not the Dark Lord - his Master....
Which, excuse me for the rough humour ! , reminds me of the ever-lasting question: "What comes first - the hen or the egg?".
-----------
Oh, and Alcfalath, Great argument!
-----------
I'll be back!:D

[Eledhwen]

Confusticated said: Why didn't Sauron make it shrink then?
Answer: because he was searching for it and didn't know where it was or whether it was being worn.

I am not arguing that Sauron makes the ring shrink/enlarge, but that the ring doesn't think "I think I'll get off here" then grow big and leave the finger like you leave a bus.

On Amon Hen, Frodo felt Sauron's search. If the ring felt it too, and could think, it would have given him away, yes?

Good point Llunithiliel - Tolkien's dictionary (if he needed one) was probably the OED.

[Nóm]

Confusticated said: Why didn't Sauron make it shrink then?

Posted by Eledhwen Answer: because he was searching for it and didn't know where it was or whether it was being worn.

Sauron did not know where the One Ring was all of those years with Bilbo and Gollum while One Ring acted on it's own then. It thought for it's self while it's master had no idea what was going on with it.

By Eledhwen If the ring felt it too, and could think, it would have given him away, yes?
It tried to give Frodo away several times, but Frodo over-powered it.

Posted by Lhunithiliel then you are saying that it was the RING who ruled over ME, not the Dark Lord
The Ring did not rule Middle-earth, but if wielded it's wearer could. Note that Sauron was unable to rule without it.

[Eledhwen]

Confusticated said Note that Sauron was unable to rule without it.

Reference to text of Silmarillion deleted

Gandalf believes that, while the ring exists, Sauron's strength would ultimately grow to a force that could not be defeated by their gathered strength, even though Sauron did not have the ring.

There is no incident attributed to the Ring that could not be interpreted as Sauron bending his thought and will towards the ring and drawing it to himself (or the Ringwraiths to it).

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Gandalf believes that, while the ring exists, Sauron's strength would ultimately grow to a force that could not be defeated by their gathered strength, even though Sauron did not have the ring.
I admit may Sauron may potentially have been able to rule Middle-earth without possessing his Ring. However: I do not see how it aids either of our arguements.

[Nenya Evenstar]

First of all I would like to remind my guild members that in this debate we are only allowed to use LotR and The Hobbit.

Team B seems to be saying that instances where the Ring grows, shrinks, and abandons people is not because the ring can think on its own but because Sauron is drawing the Ring to himself. I would like to disprove this:

From "The Shadow of the Past"
There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.

This confirms the fact that the Ring can think on its own and that it does not only act when Sauron wills it to. Notice how this passage refers to the Ring as an actual thinking being and how it says that the Ring was trying to get back to its master - not that Sauron was drawing it to himself. Notice how the Ring is able to act even when Sauron is not in the picture - its abandonment and betrayal of Isildur, and then its ensarement of Deagol and Gollum. Sauron was not even in the picture at this time, for he had been defeated. When Sauron did come and begin again to build his strength in Dol Guldor he was not even aware that the Ring had been found. How then could the Ring's actions be blamed on Sauron? Sauron was not even trying to find the Ring yet, but the Ring acted because it knew that Sauron had awoken. Sauron was not trying to draw the Ring to himself yet as he did not even know that it had been found.

Please forgive me for the length of this.

[gate7ole]

Following Nenya Eventar’s excellent point, I want to note that we don’t want to prove that the Ring was a genius and could solve mathematical problems. But that it has an undoubted capability of logical thought. It has a purpose, to return to the master. And it started taking action long ago. And the best proof is of course Isildur’s treason by the ring after Sauron losing his physical form and leaving ME for a while. So the Ring could not have been instructed by him to do so, as you always say.
Here is another quote from Frodo’s thoughts:

For a moment he wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room

To finish my argument, when Sauron made the Ring, he put in it much of his strength and as it is most possible, much of his intelligence, so that the Ring would be also able to think and take some decisions of its own.
As for Luthiniel’s argument, we simply debate that the Ring can think and say nothing more about its senses. Trying to find the etymology of the word “sentient” is an unfortunate attempt to confuse the (beloved) judges.

[Lhunithiliel]

For Team B - OF COURSE!
My good Nenya, I was waiting for someone to bring up this particular extract and I thank you!
Let me re-quote it but by bits:
There was more than one power at work, Frodo....
All right! But you "thoughtfully" ;) "forgot" to continue a bit further from the same conversation:
....Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ringmaker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought."
Now, let's see. WHO stands above the ring's master? WHO could interfere with the ring's master's commands? WHO is mightier than Sauron and can excercise more power ?
Melkor? He was already "out of the game", cast into the Void and from there he could not interfere.
The other Valar? They did not care much at this stage of the history of ME.
Then????
Don't tell me that it was the RING itself, for it is but a small object, though endowed with certain abilities (of them I'll post next time;)). If you say it did, then you can equally blame the Silmarils for the fall of the Elven race! No! I don't think you or anyone else would presume this.
Then???:confused:
The only one who could make things and events meant to be and meant to hapen is the one and only ILLUVATAR.
It's Illuvatar's will that drives the destiny and the history of the race of Men. At the time of the Wars of the Ring, the basic conflict was precisely between the race of Men and Sauron. So, whatever the plan of Illuvatar was about his beloved Second-born children, he was the ONLY mighty power that could interfere - NOT the Elves, NOT Melkor, NOT the Valar, CERTAINLY NOT the Ring itself, but HE ONLY.
Which, in conclusion, clearly explains that the Ring could not excercise powers that only divine creatures had.

One thing has to be cleared - The Ring was just an object with inherent evil within, and it was that EVIL that acted, not the object itself.
The will of the Evil forces in ME strongly attracted its "barers" to each other and this is the only reasonable explanation of the ring's "behaviour" whenever near some other of its kin.
----------
Enough for now.:p
I'll be back!

[gate7ole]

Now, suddenly you change your course and blame Illuvatar for the Ring’s behaviour. It seems that we persuaded you that Sauron couldn’t have been the mind behind the Ring’s actions, since he was absent during almost 2000 years of TA. You say:

It’s Illuvatar’s will that drives the destiny and the history of the race of Men.

We agree. Then you say:

So, whatever the plan of Illuvatar was about his beloved Second-born children, he was the ONLY mighty power that could interfere - NOT the Elves, NOT Melkor, NOT the Valar, CERTAINLY NOT the Ring itself, but HE ONLY

Which means that the future of Men is changed only by Illuvatar (and Men of course). Again it’s acceptable. And then you conclude:

Which, in conclusion, clearly explains that the Ring could not exercise powers that only divine creatures had.

Socrates would be proud. You conclude to whatever you want, with arguments that are irrelevant. How did it derive that since Illuvatar can only change the destiny of the world then the Ring can’t exercise any power? Can’t it be that the Ring IS in Illuvatar’s plan and he KNOWS how it will act? If it were true, then nor could Gimli and Legolas exercise powers since they are not Illuvatar. No, there is something wrong with it. Every sentient thing can change the course of things (slightly or hugely). And by this you have proved nothing about the ability of the ring to think.
And our arguments still hold.

[Nenya Evenstar]

One thing has to be cleared - The Ring was just an object with inherent evil within, and it was that EVIL that acted, not the object itself. The will of the Evil forces in ME strongly attracted its "barers" to each other and this is the only reasonable explanation of the ring's "behaviour" whenever near some other of its kin.

Luthiniel, I wish to point out to you that though an object may be used for evil purposes; for example weapons, or anything for that matter, if left alone these things will just sit. Even if evil is standing two feet away from them, they will be unable to move, act, or do anything to get nearer to the evil. The only things which are able to act accordingly are those things which are able to make the decision for themselves to move, and they can do this because they have control over the action. Yes, the Ring was attracted to evil, but unless it was able to think, it would have been unable to take any action concerning getting closer to its Master.

[Gil-Galad]

Team B -the ring cannot think
Let's think in the simpliest way ....we already said that the ring is a weapon.I would say smart weapon.I'll make a parallel with the "smart" bombs.They're programmed by computers and are guided by sattelites from the space.They're "smart"because they "know" their aim,their target,and they will reach it soon or late,guided from the space.But can they think?No.Let's change the places now:
The ring is the "smart" bomb.The sattelite/computer is Sauron
The aim is :the ring should find the way back to Sauron.
The ring is guided by the connection between it and its master.And now,what do we have?A "smart" ring,guided by Sauron and the connection between them,which has to reach its target-its master.Can the ''smart'' bomb think?No.So,can the "smart'' ring think?Having in mind the parallel which I made-NO.

[Lhunithiliel]

gate7ole:
Now, suddenly you change your course and blame Illuvatar for the Ring’s behaviour. It seems that we persuaded you that Sauron couldn’t have been the mind behind the Ring’s actions,
No, not at all! You miss the point! In my post I was providing evidences on the matter that it was NOT ONLY Sauron who had power over the ring! There was some other power, higher and stronger, that had control over the course of events. And that's why I analized the issue of WHICH this power could be. For it is felt for sure! And when the course of events is controlled, directed and "meant to be" by the great powers (speaking of the ever-lasting struggle of the forces of good and evil in ALL and ANY forms and ways!), an object like the Ring is clearly SEEN and UNDERSTOOD just as a tool, but it can NEVER be taken as an active "player".
Socrates would be proud. You conclude to whatever you want, with arguments that are irrelevant. How did it derive that since Illuvatar can only change the destiny of the world then the Ring can’t exercise any power? Can’t it be that the Ring IS in Illuvatar’s plan and he KNOWS how it will act?
If you look deeper and think about the source of every event Tolkien had described throughout the history of the ME, you will reach to noone else but Illuvatar himself. You remember that: "At first it was Eru..."?
So, though a subject to another discussion, I will only say: "We are all in the hands of Eru". And yes, the ring, just as everything and everybody else, was in the plans of Illuvatar. And yes, he knew about it and it is obvious that he permitted the ring's behaviour in its desire to reunite with his master.
By which we come to the issue of the "dark forces" attraction - a phenomena which explains the ring's behaviour.
I made my point crystal clear about that and the logic of my argument is impeccable if you CAREFULLY have read what I had written. But just to remind, I'll quote myself:
The Ring was just an object with inherent evil within , and it was that EVIL that acted, not the object itself.
So, my dear Nenya, we are speakig here NOT about just a piece of metal, but about a tool in the hands of Evil. Try to remember every detail about the ring's behaviour in different situations and circumstances... When was it most "active"? In the presence of another "representative" of evil.
Finally:
If it were true, then nor could Gimli and Legolas exercise powers since they are not Illuvatar
:confused: :confused:
----------------------------
Good debate, everyone! I am really enjoying it! We are becoming stronger, aren't we!:p

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Can the ''smart'' bomb think?No.So,can the "smart'' ring think?Having in mind the parallel which I made-NO.

The Ring is 'magic', a chunk of gold and beyond explainaton. Not a bunch of wires and signals and facy things like a bomb, which is science, and can be explain by people. The two can not be used to explain eachother.


Lhunithiliel, I can not quote your entire point because it is too long. The things you pointed out are irrelevant. You add truths to your posts probably in attempt to trip us up but it will not work.People have been used as tools, Sauron used Saruman, Saruman used Radagast: They could think! The Ring being used as a tool proves nothing about it's ability or lack of to think.


(Editted for length...:mad: )

[Lhunithiliel]

So, you say I am addig truth and yet you say my arguments are irrelevant.:confused:

Let me put it in a very short way.
The Ring could not be sentient, meaning , it could not act by it's OWN FREE WILL, for it was nothing but a "conductor" of the FREE WILL OF EVIL and a tool in the plans of the GREAT FORCES that ruled the course of events in ME.
--------------------
And when you say smth., you'd better back it up by evidences and solid proof, not JUST statements.;)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So, you say I am addig truth and yet you say my arguments are irrelevant.:confused:
Yes. That is what I said....it is true that the Ring was used as a Tool, but I think that in it's self proves nothing for your side. As being a tool does not prove that a thing can not think.


The Ring could not be sentient, meaning , it could not act by it's OWN FREE WILL, for it was nothing but a "conductor" of the FREE WILL OF EVIL and a tool in the plans of the GREAT FORCES that ruled the course of events in ME.
Follow your own advise bellow. Gandalf was sent as a tool to help defeat Sauron, does this mean Gandalf had no free will and is therefore not sentient?

And when you say smth., you'd better back it up by evidences and solid proof, not JUST statements.;)
Absolutely...but I have failed to quote obvious well known things because we have a limit to the size of our posts. Pick any statement of mine that you deem has no evidence to back it up. I will back it up.

[Eledhwen]

Confusticated says: As being a tool does not prove that a thing can not think. If this argument is valid, you have just proved that my garden fork can think.

Seriously, though, there is much poetic language in LotR about, for instance, the Ring abandoning Gollum, but that is all it can be. In ME, any creation not initiated by Illuvatar could not move or think except at the express will of its creator. When Sauron's will was defeated, his armies did not need to be told; his will was no longer moving them. As when death smites the (queen), ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron ... ran hither and thither mindless So it must be with the ring because, although Sauron filled it with his malice, it had no independent will and therefore could not think. Note that the free-thinking men in Sauron's service were able to carry on fighting.

If the One Ring had any independent ability to move towards Sauron, then it was more akin to a migrating bird. A swallow must fly to Africa for winter. It cannot think to choose a different destination or maybe to stay. It is pre-programmed like Gil-Galad's guided missile analogy.

Team A says the ring can think because it is 'magic', but Tolkien defines magic differently than other fantasy authors - he says it is art to it's highest perfection, and art can't think.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
If this argument is valid, you have just proved that my garden fork can think.
I did not.
Seriously, though, there is much poetic language in LotR about, for instance, the Ring abandoning Gollum, but that is all it can be
and then later you quote...
so the creatures of Sauron ... ran hither and thither mindless
Were they honestly without mind? Or was this poetic languageand they were only without direction and purpose?
When Sauron's will was defeated, his armies did not need to be told; his will was no longer moving them.
Equating the Ring with his Army? Fine with me..:D...Sauron's Army could think.

Team A says the ring can think because it is 'magic', but Tolkien defines magic differently than other fantasy authors - he says it is art to it's highest perfection, and art can't think.
Team A did not say that the Ring can think because it is magic. Team A said that the Ring can not be likend to a bomb because it is 'magic'. I know Tolkien views on the use of the word magic which is why I put it in quote marks. Art as we know it can not think, but we do not know what Art of the highest perfection is capable of doing. (DELETED EXAMPLE THAT USED ERU)

[Eledhwen]

[edited to remove reference to text of Silmarillion]. Sauron, a mere Maia, would not be able to create a sentient being.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Lhunithiel
Let me put it in a very short way.
The Ring could not be sentient, meaning , it could not act by it's OWN FREE WILL, for it was nothing but a "conductor" of the FREE WILL OF EVIL and a tool in the plans of the GREAT FORCES that ruled the course of events in ME.

And

The Ring was just an object with inherent evil within , and it was that EVIL that acted, not the object itself.


Now, these two quotes try to say that there is an evil in the Ring, that acts. But of course, it is not the medal that thinks, it is a force which was put it it. But altogether this evil force and the medal consist the One and Ruling Ring. It is a dualism as we are. We have the body and the spirit. The spirit thinks, the body acts. The same happens with the ring. The evil force thinks and the medal acts (shrinks, slips etc). This evil force was was once part of Sauron’s spirit and thus it has an undoubted ability to think.
As for Eru, I believe you unsuccessfully try to reject our ULTIMATE argument; the actions of the Ring during the period when Sauron was absent (Isildur, Smeagol). So you say that while the ring’s master was not there, all the thinking of the Ring was made by Illuvatar. Sorry but I don’t buy it. Illuvatar definitely knows (and has planned) the course of the history, but it is not his interference that changes the destiny. It is through all sentient things that his plan is executed. And if you say it is also through non-sentient things, then name one more besides the Ring which “seems” to have acted. Or is the Ring the only exception?
I challenge Team B, to use a more subtle (and not so philosophical) point to contradict our ultimate argument said before.

[gate7ole]

My fellow team-mate Confusticated, let me answer to Eledhwen without quoting from anywhere.
But Sauron did NOT create a sentient being from the scratch. He gave a part of HIMSELF and put it in the ring. Don’t you realize that this is very different from creating a new life? Sauron was not able to create an evil and thinking object unless he sacrificed much of his power and put it in the ring.
And so another argument of the opponents collapses.

[Nevavarein]

Originally posted by gate7ole

But Sauron did NOT create a sentient being from the scratch. He gave a part of HIMSELF and put it in the ring. Don’t you realize that this is very different from creating a new life? Sauron was not able to create an evil and thinking object unless he sacrificed much of his power and put it in the ring.
And so another argument of the opponents collapses.

he did sacrifice his power in the ring etc etc, but, since the ring was made in the very fires of Mount Doom, by Sauron, in Mordor, the ring abviously could have some power. But that does not prove the ring can think. lets say fire. it has power over us though we dont know it. We fear it because it could kill us,etc. though we could not live without it, but can it think? no.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Also, to further the arguments of Team A, I would like to say that Team B has made the point that the Ring's actions and movements are accentuated when around evil. All of Team A agrees with this, I can assure you, and it only promotes our arguments. You have basically said that the Ring is able to sense evil on its own. Of course it would act up! It knew that when it was around evil that it had a better a chance of getting back to its Master. The Ring was trying to get back to the evil which created it, and would have a more likely chance of doing so if it revealed itself to any evil. These factors give more than enough reason to prove why the Ring acted up at certain times around evil.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nevavarein


he did sacrifice his power in the ring etc etc, but, since the ring was made in the very fires of Mount Doom, by Sauron, in Mordor, the ring abviously could have some power. But that does not prove the ring can think. lets say fire. it has power over us though we dont know it. We fear it because it could kill us,etc. though we could not live without it, but can it think? no.

The point of my last post was not to show that the thing thinks. It was an answer to your player Eledhwen, who said that only Eru can create sentient life. And I said that Sauron didn't make sentient life, he "divided" himself in two parts.
My team's arguments for the subject of this debate, are given before. Please, try not to put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nevavarien, which team are you for?:p

We have a couple of days left to discuss this topic BUT as I read the posts through, I have noticed that the discussion has stuck on the level: "You said that and I'm telling you this ". We have definitely lost the track!
I have a suggestion to everybody:
Let's SUMMARIZE the basic arguments of BOTH teams and then it's going to be possible to continue again .
I suggest that each team should appoint someone from their respective groups to do the summary for the posts of THEIR team .
Such summary is to include 1 to no more than 3 points, CLEARLY stating the basic arguments of the team's thesis. We may include VERY SHORT quotes to each of these 1-3 statements.

If Team "A" agrees, then I'll expect to see in the next post YOUR summary. Ours will follow immideately.

[Lhunithiliel]

I have done the summary for our team and let me present it to you now.

Team “B” – “The Ring can not think”
Summary:

1. The Ring can not be considered as a sentient being, as it is an object and as such, it can not have free will, logic-based thought and actions, ability to see or feel things through the senses as it has no such.

2. The Ring’s behaviour is controlled by the forces, both evil and good, that influence the course of the events in ME. The Ring itself is just one of the “servants” of the evil forces. It is no more than a tool in the hands of Evil. All it does is to respond to the mighty will of its master .
On the other hand, even the Ring-maker and its Master is subjected to higher authority and power – hence its creation can be and is controlled by them.

Quotes:
'Yes, to Mordor,' said Gandalf. 'Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons.

In evil hands it might have done great evil. Worst of all, it might have fallen into the hands of the Enemy. Indeed it certainly would; for this is the One, and he is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself.

....Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ringmaker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you were meant to have it…."

END OF SUMMARY.

[Lhunithiliel]

New argument in favour of the thesis of Team “B”:

The Ring-maker had created his tool skillfully, endowing it with certain “magical” physical abilities - as "magic" is understood by humans.

Think, however, about the magical objects of the forces of Good – the three elven rings, the mirror of Galadriel etc.They acted in their own ways and did that very actively. The Elven rings contributed for the creation and the preserving of the realms of their bearers, Galadriel’s mirror showed what one wished to see.
Do these magic abilities make these objects sentient?
It is obvious that they are not perceived by anyone as free-will-exercising-thinking-sensing beings.
The only difference between Sauron’s ring and those objects is the nature of the powers that control them.

Which leads to the logical conclusion that it was the force that acted through the Ring, NOT the Ring itself.

[Nóm]

In respose to the Team B's last two summaries:

or feel things through the senses as it has no such
It may not have had the same senses that we have, but it's abilitiy to act in certain circumstances shows that it had gained an awareness of it's surroundings through some sort of senses. It could think it's way out of or into situations. Such as slipping onto and off of fingures at convinient moments.
Last I knew, something must be able to sense a call in order to respond to it..:confused:

You say the Ring is a servant and tool but you continue to fail to show how that means that the Ring didn't think/sense. Plenty servants and tools can think. I have already named some.

Gollum hardly had freewill but he could think.

The only difference between Sauron’s ring and those objects is the nature of the powers that control them. ONLY difference? I call that that a big one. The One Ring is a cruel dominating weapon, the others are not.That is not the ONLY difference though, Sauron put part of himself into it. It's this unique aspect of the One Ring which enables it to think/sense.



(Editted for length again) :mad:

[Eledhwen]

Last I knew, something must be able to sense a call in order to respond to it..I return to the analogy of a nail being drawn to a magnet, which responds to a call without thinking. This evil force was was once part of Sauron’s spirit and thus it has an undoubted ability to think. You said it was once, therefore is no longer. The spirit is indivisible and indestructible in any theology I know. Whatever went into Sauron's ring, it wasn't a bit of his spirit. So, if the presence of the spirit is necessary for sentience, then the ring is not sentient.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
I return to the analogy of a nail being drawn to a magnet, which responds to a call without thinking. But Sauron is a 'magnet' to evil and that can not be explain with the laws of physics. It is something more and it draws living things. Will a nail fall into somebody's pocket because they are about to walk into a room where there is a magnet? No, because a nail can not think. Only a thinking thing like the One Ring does things like that.


I will also defend my team mate who said that the One Ring once was a part of Sauron's spirit.
It ceased to be a true part of him once it was detached. It could have overthrown Sauron if in the right hands, and made it's self the ruler of Middle-earth on the hand of another, all without Sauron himself. So the wise thought.

[gate7ole]

The spirit is indivisible and indestructible in any theology I know.

I agree, there is one spirit of Sauron. It was divided in two parts only in the meaning that they belong to different bodies. Watch what happens when the ring is unmade. Sauron is diminished into a shadow and loses his force. Why is that? Because the part of him that entered into the ring was eliminated. So, there are not two different spirits, but one separated in two parts that communicate.
Thus, the next quote is not true:

Whatever went into Sauron's ring, it wasn't a bit of his spirit. So, if the presence of the spirit is necessary for sentience, then the ring is not sentient.

And I conclude based on your statements:
Whatever went into Sauron's ring, WAS a bit of his spirit.
So, if the presence of spirit is necessary for sentience, then the ring IS sentient.
To finish: the fact that others can use the ring against Sauron says to me only that the ring is not unbeatable. If the bearer’s spirit is strong then it can overthrow the will of the ring and use it against its master.

As for the analogy of a nail being drawn to a magnet, you always AVOID to explain what happens when a nail is far from the magnet. Does it search the magnet? No! Then why the ring kept on searching his master while he was absent from ME?

[Nevavarein]

*im on team B i just accidentally put that Team A thing in my last post, but i changed it. :)

[Melian Le Fay]

Say what one of the members of team A wrote, that Sauron's sprirt WAS devided into two, and that one part was put in the ring. Because his sprit was in the ring, the ring was sentient.
I see it differently : if it was Sauron's spirit in the ring, then, it wasn't the ring thinking, but SAURON!!! His sprit in the ring - therefore - he ruled it, and thought, and was aware of the world around him/it. The ring was not only the tool of power, but also his "window" into the world...
But, on the other hand, he couldn't control everything, since he was limited - the ring isn't made like a being that can completely control its fate, and also there were greater forces at work... Thus the ring came to Bilbo and was passed over to Frodo...

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Millena
His sprit in the ring - therefore - he ruled it, and thought, and was aware of the world around him/it. The ring was not only the tool of power, but also his "window" into the world...
Sauron was so aware of the world around it that he knew it was in Mordor making it's way to Mt Doom? That he knew it was in Gollum's cave and Bilbo's pocket all those years?..No. The ring was not Sauron's window into the world.
But, on the other hand, he couldn't control everything, since he was limited - the ring isn't made like a being that can completely control its fate, and also there were greater forces at work... Thus the ring came to Bilbo and was passed over to Frodo...
Any greater forces that were at work were effecting the people too, and not just the One Ring. Being directed by a greater force does not qualify any thing as being unable to think.

[Melian Le Fay]

As I stated, the ring IN A WAY was Sauron's "window" into the world, but it wasn't made as a being with eyes, ears, etc. It was a TOOL only, and not ment for all kinds of purporses, like the Palantiri, for example. And why was it in Gollum's cave or Bilbo's pocket? It's said that the ring waited for the right time, or should I say Sauron waited for the right time, as his strength increased... The right time to move along, and pass closer to Mordor and Sauron.
Why didn't he see it coming into Mordor? His power wasn't complete, and that is the reason he couldn't sense everything...
My comment on the ring being controlled by greater forces was ment to explain how the ring got to Bilbo and why it stayed there for so many years...

[Nenya Evenstar]

As I stated, the ring IN A WAY was Sauron's "window" into the world, but it wasn't made as a being with eyes, ears, etc.

We are not saying that the One Ring is a breathing, seeing being. No, it is not. We are not saying that it possesses senses of that sort, but of a very different sort.

And why was it in Gollum's cave or Bilbo's pocket? It's said that the ring waited for the right time, or should I say Sauron waited for the right time, as his strength increased... The right time to move along, and pass closer to Mordor and Sauron.

Let me remind you that the Ring was awake and trying to get back to Sauron long before Sauron showed his presence in ME (after his first defeat by Gil-Galad and Elendil). Sauron was not even in the picture then and thus could not have been the main force in driving the Ring towards its Master. The Ring was doing this on its own.

Why didn't he see it coming into Mordor? His power wasn't complete, and that is the reason he couldn't sense everything...

The answer to this is well-known. Sauron did not see the Ring coming to Mordor because he did not expect his enemies to do such a thing. The thought did not even cross his mind.

[Lhunithiliel]

All right, Team "A". You haven't provided your summary and prefer going on using the debating method "You said that and I'm telling you this".
I have to say this method, however, can only touch the surface of the issue discussed and never allow us go deeper.
But, as you say!
So, I'm taking up your "game"-method and I therefore would like to post some short comments "your style".
------------------------
I am sorry if this post will be a bit longer, but this is the way I can express myself. I'm going to do my best to be brief in my comments on several issues, yet as a whole, it will be longer.
------------------------
Confusticated:
Any greater forces that were at work were effecting the people too, and not just the One Ring. Being directed by a greater force does not qualify any thing as being unable to think.
You are always trying to "slip" away when we bring up the issue about the force within the Ring, stating (for length limitations -no quotes) that Gandalf, Gollum etc were also tools... I think that a TOOL has been most clearly defined by our team, and OBVIOUSLY not once admitted by your Team, as an OBJECT, as the Ring IS, while in your attempt to prove our arguments irrelevant, all of a sudden you start applying the non-literate, the figurative meaning of the word "tool". We are speaking here of the Ring, not as a symbol, allegory etc. but as a mere object. And when we say TOOL, we mean OBJECT.
Nenya:
We are not saying that the One Ring is a breathing, seeing being
So, once and for all, make up your mind! Do you discuss the Ring as an OBJECT or as a being equal to characters like Gandalf, Gollum etc.
------------------------
Nenya:
Let me remind you that the Ring was awake and trying to get back to Sauron long before Sauron showed his presence in ME (after his first defeat by Gil-Galad and Elendil). Sauron was not even in the picture then and thus could not have been the main force in driving the Ring towards its Master. The Ring was doing this on its own.
What a controvercy!!!!
Please, tell us one thing. If Sauron was not "in the picture", then WHO was that clever, sentient, wicked thing (Ooops! being) trying to get to?
As long as you neglect our statement (well backed up!) that it was not ONLY Sauron who influenced the Ring's behaviour, and as long as you state that the Ring is independent and free-will being, then please, explain yourselves - WHAT was the Ring's AIM all the time it performed its "tricks" (slipping, shrinking etc.), which impress you so much that you have put them in the foundation of your thesis.
------------------------
LAST!
Confusticated; RE: the ring -the objects of the good forces:
The One Ring is a cruel dominating weapon, the others are not.That is not the ONLY difference though, Sauron put part of himself into it. It's this unique aspect of the One Ring which enables it to think/sense.
Again for length, I'll not provide the relevabt quotes from the book, but in short - the Elves created their objects ALWAYS introducing their good will in them - this is what made these objects "magical". The analogy is complete: Sauron put part of his evil into his creation <> The Elves put their good powers into their creations. But Team "A" sees Sauron's creation as sentient while the creations of the Elves are not. :confused:

[Nóm]

The One Ring is unlike any other object because of it's ability to control things and to change it's own size/weight. It's in a class of it's own. What is true of an elf ring may not hold true for it.

Sauron was out of the picture as far as controlling the Ring, because he was over in Dol Guldurunaware of the ring, So he was not thinking for it. But...

Now, you say that it was a greater force than Sauron who caused this Ring's actions....Iluv-something? Hmm...I do not recall reading anything like that in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. Anyhow, as I said before, being directed by a greater force does not qualify a think as having no ability to think. So that in it's self proves nothing.



PS: look in that dirctionary of yours for the word "tool".

(had to trim this one up too!)

[Lhunithiliel]

PS: look in that dirctionary of yours for the word "tool".
tool = 1/ an instrument that you hold in your hand and use for making things; 2/ a thing that helps you do your job or to achieve sth.
and only 3/ (as figurative) a person who is used or controlled by another person or group
"From "my" dictionary.

Well, it is more than OBVIOUS!!!!!!
I don't think anything said different from these three points can be BETTER and MORE IN FAVOUR of the thesis of Team "B"!!!
Look and carefully read them and you'll find the "NO" to all of your arguments.....which are becoming more and more vague and unsure lately.:p

[gate7ole]

I’ll try to summarize Team A’s points:
1. The Ring was awake and trying to get back to Sauron long before Sauron showed his presence in ME (after his first defeat by Gil-Galad and Elendil). Sauron was not even in the picture then and thus could not have been the main force in driving the Ring towards its Master. The Ring was doing this on its own.
2. Even when Sauron was back to ME, the ring’s behavior needed a knowledge of the situation every time, which Sauron could not have. E.g. the Ring left the Gollum, because it would never be able to reach the master from a cave. Thus, the decision to betray Gollum was not just a –follow my master- action, but a more complex one.
3.About the magic properties of the ring, we say that “magic” is not an easy thing to interpret in Tolkien’s books. It can be called magic because simply it was not fully understood by men. The fact is that Sauron put a great deal of his spirit in this ring (he couldn’t exist after its destruction), and gave it some individual logic. He didn’t create life from the scratch (only Eru can do it) but “divided” his spirit in two parts, so that when they were united they would be fiercer.
4.Finally, the use of the Ring by Illuvatar as a tool to fulfill his plan of the world, cannot be a point against our case, because many people were already used as tools (Gandalf, Gollum, even Bilbo) to change the destiny of ME and all of the could think.
Now as for the definition of the tool, which has caused so much confusion, it is simple. We shouldn’t use the literal definition of the Tool, because here we don’t care about the objects-tools (a hammer or a sword), but the tools of Illuvatar through which his plan is executed. If Team B is only referring to the tool literally, then they miss the point that the BIG results come not through these tools. Eru wouldn’t mind about a simple ring, since he had so many other tools –people who could cause far greater changes.
5.The comparison with magnets, smart bombs is wrong because the ring’s behavior was not strictly programmed, but adopted according to the conditions. This adoption is a sign of more complex behavior than a programmed one (the possibility of artificial intelligence is out of the question of course ;)) Also the comparison with other “magic” objects like the other Rings, is unfortunate, since the other rings didn’t provide any clever services, they just stopped time, showed peoples’ feelings, made fire. If you believe it’s the same as trying to get somewhere then…

Another thing about the word “tool”, which doesn’t belong in this summary:
Team B tries to prove something using it as a starting point!! The claim that the ring is a tool only in a literally point of view, cannot be proven unless we finally conclude that the ring cannot think. So you use this conclusion using that the ring is not sentient, to return and prove this fact by the conclusion. Schematically:
The ring cannot think-> it is a tool only literally -> The ring cannot think
I don’t think it is very fair!

To my team: if I omitted something, PM to edit the summary.

[Nóm]

Our initial arguements for our side still stand. Our arguements against your arguements have become a little more vague. The debate is turning into a deductive mess. So...
here again are our points:

The One Ring was able to change sizes and influence people in attempt to fulfill it's purpose: Evil, and getting back to it's master. It could not have done this without being aware (which would require some form of sensing on it's part) and thought (coming up with solutions) such as sneaking onto Frodo's finger at the Prancy Pony. All this without Sauron knowing the Ring's situation.

It was not Gollum, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him. Gandalf says that.

Team B first claims that Sauron is to blame for the Ring's actions. We disproved that (I guess?) because Team B now says that some other greater power is to blame.

Team A says: No, why would a greater power who's goal it was to put an end to the Ring, cause the ring to act up at the Prancy Pony? If some greater power were in control of the Ring directly (and it would have to be directly and completely in order for this power to change it's size) they had no reason to risk evil discovering the One Ring. Why not just curl the ring up so small that none could wear it? Because the greater power did not control the Ring directly. Any intervention of a greater force worked in subtle ways and through chain reactions. Not suddenly magicly making an object grow.

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I’ll try to summarize Team A’s points:
1. The Ring was awake and trying to get back to Sauron long before Sauron showed his presence in ME (after his first defeat by Gil-Galad and Elendil). Sauron was not even in the picture then and thus could not have been the main force in driving the Ring towards its Master. The Ring was doing this on its own.


Just because Sauron "wasn't in the picture" it doesn't mean Sauron didn't exist at the time! His strength was diminished, and he didn't reveal his presence, nor his powers posed any threat to the world, but he WAS there! You said yourself he put part of his will, his spirit into it. Just like you said, it is HIS sprit in it! it would be more logical to think putting one's sprit into something means controlling two bodies or whatever, than thinking a part of one's spirit creates a new sentient being. Why did the ring move, or why did it escape Gollum? It was Sauron's life force, his will, that drove the ring to him. The "two parts of his spririt" tended to join into one. It was made that way - his life force was put in it, so it (meaning Sauron's spirit, his very being) would always seek it's other part.
And as for the quote : "the ring always seeks it's master" said by Gandalf, wether it should be taken literally or not, is a bit hard to decide. How do you know Gandalf ment that literally?!
And as for the question of the "higher force", team A is taking team B's opinion a little out of the context. Referring to the "higher force" is not an excuse to prove the matters of ring being a tool/a not so literal tool, but a way to explain the fact that Bilbo and later Frodo came to the ring. How else would you explain why the ring spent some time with them? Firs you said "it wanted to go to it's master" but then, I guess, decided to take a break and spend some time in Bag-End... Sauron was too weak to completely control the ring, while the chances (or "greater forces") took the ring to unexpected places. If the ring could think, it most certainly wouldn't spend some care-free time with the Hobbits.
And team A is also reffering to the incident in the "Prancing Pony" inn. Why did the ring slip onto Frodo's finger? Sauron's strength was much, much greater at the time of that incident, than 60 years before... Thus his life force yearned more to be joined with "the rest of him"...

[Lhunithiliel]

There is a saying: "Even alone, a warrior is still a warrior";)
So, here I am again.
1/
1. The Ring was awake and trying to get back to Sauron long before Sauron showed his presence in ME
You did not and do not answer where the Ring could have gone to, if its Master was "not in the picture".
2/
Thus, the decision to betray Gollum was not just a –follow my master- action, but a more complex one.
.......which is...? :confused: Look at p.1.
3/
Sauron put a great deal of his spirit in this ring (he couldn’t exist after its destruction), and gave it some individual logic. He didn’t create life from the scratch (only Eru can do it) but “divided” his spirit in two parts, so that when they were united they would be fiercer.
A few points here:
> Sauron poured into the ring malice and will to dominate the ME = part of himself. As we pointed earlier, this fact precisely shows that all representatives of Evil were constantly attracted to each other (Gollum<>the Ring, Nazgul<>the Ring; the Ring<>the Southernman in the "Prancing Pony etc). It is unquestionable that once Sauron was again in his powers, the force attracting the ring and causing the demonstation of all its abilities as a "magical" object, was immense. Sauron needed that part of his powers that he once had introduced into the Ring, therefore he was strongly influencing. The sentient behaviour is Sauron's, not of the Ring.
> Sauron could have never given "logic" or whatever other ability to his creation to make it sentient. The only one who could do this was Illuvatar. Remember that it was Eru who gave permission to Aule (much a mightier being than Sauron!) that his (Aule's) creations - the dwarves could be sentient. Whithout his permission these creations, even though created by a Vala, would have been nothing but pieces of stone. Remember that Eru alone had the power of introducing the "Flame Imperishable" into beings to make them sentient. Which is NOT the case with Sauron and his creation - the Ring.
4/ /no quote for length limitation/ - Based on my arguments above, the Ring can not be perceived as something else than an object, though endowed with certain "magical" properties. And even if Team "A" would see the Ring as a "tool" in the non-literal meaning, then pls. read definition No;3 of the word. It again proves NO abilities to act by free will and/or conscience. And to the argument, provided not once that Gollum, Gandalf even Bilbo were tools - I have to say - you are completely mixing up the nature and the purpose of Eru's creations with the creation of a Maia.
5/
Also the comparison with other “magic” objects like the other Rings, is unfortunate, since the other rings didn’t provide any clever services, they just stopped time, showed peoples’ feelings, made fire.
To this I have already given my comment. Yet then:
> the Ring just slipped, just shrinked, just jumped onto or off one's finger
The magical objects of the forces of Good were powerful enough and far more than JUST performing tricks (see my previous post on the matter).
Now if you say that the Ring was more powerfull than them, I'd agree. But then we shall have to start a topic of quite a different discussion - "Which is stonger - Evil or Good?", which is not the present one.;)
--------------------
I am sorry for the long post, but consider it as a sum of the individual responses of ALL the other members of my team :p

[Lhunithiliel]

"Even alone, a warrior is still a warrior
I guess, I was wrong, Millena!
It seems that while I was writing my post you had posted yours:p
Good to have you around!
Good arguments!

[Nóm]

If Sauron were truely no in the picture, as in, not in Middle-earth anymore, I do not know what the One Ring would have done, I can only guess that it would have tried making it's way to the most evil and potentially powerful person.


As for "which is it" I will defend that as well.
The One RIng was trying to get back to Sauron, the reason it was not a "simple, follow my master" thing is because the Ring could not simple head straight to Sauron, it could not tag along and catch up. It had to think, and come up with a plan. Perhaps this Hobbit can get me out of this cave. Then later "perhaps these nazgul will take me to Sauron, let me make Frodo put me on" and so on through the book. Not so much following his master, but finding his master.




and PS: you may add anything you want about Eru or the Maiar, but I will continue to ignore it because it is not allowed in this debate.

[Melian Le Fay]

Originally posted by Confusticated
If Sauron were not in the picture, meaning that he knew nothing of the RIng's existance.

Not know about its existance?! Sauron made the ring!!! And when he made it, he KNEW it cannot be destroyed in any other way than throwing it into Mt. Doom!!! And throwing the ring into Mt. Doom would also diminish Sauron into a harmless spirit, and I guess Sauron would be the first to know he has been ultimately destroyed!!!

[Nóm]

'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.
Said Gandalf.

When I say "Sauron did not know of it's existance" I mean "Sauron did not know of it's current existance." Sauron thought the Ring had been destroyed. He evidently was not aware or not certain that it's distruction would mean his own.
Posted by LhunithilielThe sentient behaviour is Sauron's, not of the Ring.
So you admit that the Ring did have Sentient behaviour? But say that this behaviour was Sauron's?
Which is it Sauron or this 'greater power'?

I do not doubt that the sentience of the Ring was once a part of Sauron and even still connect with Sauron in a way, but it is a thing that can work independently of Sauron. Therefore it's sentience is it's own.

By team BSauron could have never given "logic" or whatever other ability to his creation to make it sentient. The only one who could do this was Illuvatar.
Iluviwhat? Don't recall that name in LOTR or The Hobbit. It must be some 'greater power' huh? ;)...anyhow I thought I'd throw in: that Sauron did not create what would be defined by humans as life, but more of a life-like object. Darn close to life, because it could sense, though in ways we could not even begin to imagine . It could also think, it's own way..which seems have included logic of at least a small level.



(This is as short as I can make it..beleive me, I have trimmed)

[gate7ole]

Ok, we have this –slight- difference. You insist to explain the behavior of the ring in strange ways. It is Sauron who guides it, it is this “greater power”, it is the destiny of the plan of the “creator”, e.t.c. And we explain to you that YES, these are correct, but they alone CANNOT provide such capabilities to an object if this object is not sentient. The Ring is the ONLY example that you can find that is guided by these forces, but also shows a logical plan of action. It is not just a ring that is drawn nearer to its master. We see, that after the “theft” by Bilbo, the Ring actually draws away from his master (in geographical sense). But this doesn’t seem to bother it, because for the time being, it was content to have “escaped” from the caves and Gollum. It could wait, wait for his master to grow and gather his lost strength. When it sensed that Sauron’s power had grown, then it proceeded to the next step of the plan to reach the master. And I quote myself

Thus, the decision to betray Gollum was not just a –follow my master- action, but a more complex one.

Now, we repeat: Those actions require knowledge of the situations, which Sauron couldn’t have. So you can either stick on your philosophical argument of being controlled by Illuvatar and drive the conversation to a dead-end, or you can find other arguments.

[Alcfalath]

Good Morning,

Here's another thought to content with. Take a Schizophrenic, who doesn't know of his other half, and controls himself as he would, but his personality of his other self was the other half of him that he never used. Doesn't this sound a little bit like a Middle Earth Dictator we all know and loathe. (Sauron).

Now seeing as Sauron was a Maia, we had powers that were quite unique to ME, and working as a Leiutenant to Melkor he would have learned much of the dark arts, being that he could extend 'His cruelty, His malice and His will to dominate' (Sound familiar?) into a ring that he created. Doesn't that imply that the ring was an extention of Sauron. (Whoops, got of Subject)

Anyway, When the ring was cut of Saurons hand, it was like tearing a part of him away from himself. Now the ring was just a bit of Sauron trying to reunite himself with himself, do you get me?, and Sauron's will to dominate that he had forced into the ring had continued to act on it's own will, to dominate, by stopping Isildur from destroying the ring, and had Saurons power to turn good to evil, as Sauron had done with the Nazgul. And Sauron, ignorant to the Existance of his other self, carried on and regained his strength, and continued what he normailly would, "Try to take over the World".

Final Point summarising: Sauron was, in theory, A Schizophrenic and this meant the ring was still an active part of Sauron, Hense The Ring was not A Sentient Being, as Sentience denotes being a smart individual.

I Rest my Case, Good Morning.
(Many appologies for the Length, but it needed to be said.)

[Lhunithiliel]

gate7ole, excellent post!:p

Well, it doesn't of course mean that I have joined Team "A"! It is that I very much enjoy a "solid" opponent.:cool:
-----------------------------------------------------
By gate7ole: It is Sauron who guides it, it is this “greater power”, it is the destiny of the plan of the “creator”, e.t.c. And we explain to you that YES, these are correct, but they alone CANNOT provide such capabilities to an object if this object is not sentient .
Gate7ole, if we really, REALLY want this discussion not to reach a dead-end, your Team should stop neglecting what has been written previously. I myself wouldn't like to keep on "chewing" over and over the argument that:
ONLY ERU was capable of MAKING things/beings sentient. A thing/being can not be sentient and then only achieve abilities as the Ring demonstartes. Your statement is a completely "head-down-feet-up" theory. First you admit the main principle concerning the matters of creation, a principle that the whole of Tolkien's epos is founded on. And second, you imply that a thing/object must be sentient first in order to achieve certain capabilities (see the highlighted portion of the quote above; these are YOUR words!).
And to my Elf friend Confusticated > Not to mention Eru, is to start acting as ostrichs: "There is a danger! Let's bury our heads in the ground! So the danger will not exist!. And this is another of those arguments that is worth stopping being brought up, as the presence and the importance of Illuvatar and his influence on each and all the events, described throughout the WHOLE epic, can not be neglected.

[gate7ole]

I really don’t follow your thought to your last post. You say that I admit the principle concerning matters of creation. And then that I imply that a thing/object must be sentient first in order to achieve certain capabilities. I don’t see any contradiction.
Eru is the only capable of making life but we said it many times before: Sauron did not make life, he divided an already existing in two parts. Now if you say that this cannot be done… well it’s a kind of magic ;).
Then about the other forces driving the ring to a certain behaviour, I only say that these forces do not suffice. The object of their manipulation must be sentient, or else its abilities would very limited and certainly not those that the Ring has shown to us.
Lhunithiliel, if you meant something else, please rephrase.

[Eledhwen]

Then about the other forces driving the ring to a certain behaviour, I only say that these forces do not suffice. The object of their manipulation must be sentient, or else its abilities would very limited and certainly not those that the Ring has shown to us.

The ring behaves very much like a ring. It can slip off and roll away and, (infrequently) slip on. It expands and contracts, but no-where is it shown that this is in response to deliberate thought on the ring's part. A mood stone changes colour when its wearer changes mood. Sauron's ring responds to Sauron, even when apart from him, but it is still just a ring. It didn't jump out of Frodo's pocket and roll towards the nearby ringwraith because it did not have the faculties to do that. Instead, Sauron's will, working in the Nazgul, was able to affect Frodo, as ring bearer, and he almost put the ring on. The ring itself had no ability to help itself onto Frodo's finger. It doesn't even know a finger is there.

[Eledhwen]

Confusticated says that Sauron didn't know the ring's destruction would mean his own. But...The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies wer at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung. Therefore Gandalf must have either been wrong in believing Sauron thought the ring destroyed, or Sauron changed his mind later. (It's interesting that, given Team A's assertion that the ring performed various acts to get back to Sauron, even within sight of Barad Dur the ring couldn't avoid falling into the pit.)

[Nóm]

Even if Sauron changes his mind later, that still ment that at a time he did not know the Ring's distruction would mean his own. Also, that quote you posted is open to interpretation anyhow. It could be that the folly revealed to him was not just: I should have been watching my own land, but also: oh no! I am going to die to aren't I?


(It's interesting that, given Team A's assertion that the ring performed various acts to get back to Sauron, even within sight of Barad Dur the ring couldn't avoid falling into the pit.)

Oh yeah? Hmmm..Is it also interesting that Frodo was unable to throw the Ring into the fire? That the wise thought Frodo was best for this job but even he couldn't do it? That only when someone with the Ring slipped and fell, did it fall into the fire? I admit I can not prove this: but I beleive that no one with intelligence enough to sneak the ring to Orodruin would be able to throw it to the fire. It could only get there by 'accident'. Something the Ring could not foresee to find a solution.

[gate7ole]

Eledhwen, I must tell you that you’re wrong. During this long debate, Team A is describing many actions of the ring that show its sentience.

Originally posted by Eledhwen
The ring behaves very much like a ring. It can slip off and roll away and, (infrequently) slip on.

But of course, we never said that the ring can surpass its physical restrictions. It has not evolved into another object that can jump out of pockets. But it can think and, measuring the situation, acts accordingly to the restrictions of being a ring. It understands that the only way to leave the caves and Gollum is not by flying (which it can’t do even though it WANTS to), but by being carried by another person, in this case Bilbo. I thought that the above were obvious. The Ruling Ring is still a ring physically. The great difference with the other rings, is a spirit which is bound to it.
As for the next quote

Originally posted by Eledhwen
It's interesting that, given Team A's assertion that the ring performed various acts to get back to Sauron, even within sight of Barad Dur the ring couldn't avoid falling into the pit.)

Who says not? Didn’t the ring try to avoid its destruction? Didn’t it change the will of Frodo and at the last second only by pure luck it was destroyed? What do you think would happen if Gollum hadn’t interfered? And did Sauron know about this imminent danger? No, of course. So, this is another example of a logical behaviour of the Ring when Sauron wasn’t aware of the situation, which proves that the Ring acted independently.

(Oops, it seems that Confusticated and me, both quoted the same phrase from Eledhwen's post. Two answers are better than one:D)

[Lhunithiliel]

I'll try by this post to bring up the very beginning, the "springs" of the existance of the Ring. There, I think, we can all see that this object could not be sentient, for it was NOT made such.

The Ring:

What is it and why was it created?

Without the existence of the Ring, Sauron would not have a reliable method of controlling the other rings (especially the Elven rings) and, through them, their bearers and their actions. He wished not only to have control over other peoples but over their works and powers and lands, as well.
Sauron never touched the great three Elven rings, but he learned all about their forging and actually helped in the forging of the Seven and the Nine. In this wayhe learned all about the power that was introduced in these rings, giving him the knowledge needed to make a Ring that would control all the others, control their bearers and their creations. .
However, the power in this Ring, the power to control the others , had to come from somewhere. So Sauron put a great deal of his own will and power into the forging, transforming HIS power into a specific channel: that of controlling the other Rings. He believed he could always have this Ring with him, thereby having access to all of his power AND controlling the other rings.

In summary, Sauron created the Ring not as a sentient being, but just as a tool (forgive me for using this word again!), as a channel for his own will to dominate over ME.
Sauron was the ring-maker, Sauron forged it, therefore Sauron knew what he was “manufacturing” and with what purpose.
--------------
Team "B", good to have you by my shoulder! Great posts! :D

[Eledhwen]

Yes, Llunithiliel, (great trump-card post, by the way!)Team B are worthy opponents.

Confusticated, you are wriggling. My quote from RotK gives no grounds to believe that Sauron only just then discovered his "deadly peril" - Tolkien could have easily made that clear if he wanted us to think it (nice try, though!). Llunithiliel is right. Sauron would never have put sentience into the ring if he thought for one moment that he would be parted from it. If we assume that he believed he would never be parted from his ring, then why make it sentient? Conclusion: he didn't.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Llunithiliel is right. Sauron would never have put sentience into the ring if he thought for one moment that he would be parted from it. If we assume that he believed he would never be parted from his ring, then why make it sentient? Conclusion: he didn't.

"Hmmm..." says Sauron to himself, "Let's see, should I make this ring think by itself or not?" ????? This is not even remotely what Sauron was thinking! He did not even have the need to answer such a question! He was not thinking about making a ring which could think. Instead he poured some of himself into his creation, and with this came sentience. A part of what he put in was his power and will. To use Webster's New World Dictionary we get a definition of will:

1. the power of making a reasoned choice or of controlling one's own actions.

Thus, Sauron was not thinking about making a sentient being. He merely made the Ring, and with the finished product came this sentience.

[Nóm]

(I changed the subject title after realising that some may not get the joke.."The A Team"..Mr. T...pitying poor fools; and therefore see this as an insult. It was not intended to be one!)


By team B....giving him the knowledge needed to make a Ring that would control all the others, control their bearers and their creations. .
However, the power in this Ring, the power to control the others , had to come from somewhere. So Sauron put a great deal of his own will and power into the forging

So Sauron put something into his Ring which enables it to control other Rings? I agree.
Why then does Team B say that the Ring had no control over other things such as it's self or a Hobbit? Or that anything else that seems to have been the Ring in action was a greater force?

[Nevavarein]

for one, you didnt see the ring walking around back to Mordor. Or talking, well yes the ring controlled the hobbit by its prowress, but not by its mind, because as it is in the book, when Frodo was in Mordor with the ring he had a harder time controlling himself because he couldnt put the ring on. Because, as the ring was in the place in which it was made, it became stronger in power, also it was ALOT closer to Sauron at that time.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Nevavarein
... for one, you didnt see the ring walking around back to Mordor. Or talking, well yes the ring controlled the hobbit by its prowress, but not by its mind,...
So you agree that a HObbit was controlled by the One Ring and not some greater force.


Because, as the ring was in the place in which it was made, it became stronger in power, also it was ALOT closer to Sauron at that time.
The Ring became stronger because it was near Sauron, you admit. You also know that Sauron did not know the One Ring was near. Therefore, the Ring was The One who knew it was near. A thing can not know something without having senses.

[Alcfalath]

Backing up Nevavarein here,

... for one, you didnt see the ring walking around back to Mordor. Or talking, well yes the ring controlled the hobbit by its prowress, but not by its mind,...

Continue the Quote...
when Frodo was in Mordor with the ring he had a harder time controlling himself because he couldnt put the ring on. Because, as the ring was in the place in which it was made, it became stronger in power, also it was ALOT closer to Sauron at that time.

The ring, being closer to Sauron, who had an indirect link with the ring through Saurons Cruelty, Malice and Will to Dominate, increased as the power of the ring had been forged in Orodruin. So getting closer, the intensity of the portion of Saurons soul in the ring, which were evil, increased as it travelled further into Mordor (Evil place of Forging) and this was too much to bear for frodo.

Hence The Portion of Saurons Being in the ring was increasing its potency and evil , not that the Ring was controlling him.
Or if you will, Sauron controlled Frodo indirectly through the Ring (A TOOL) through his portion of his soul forged into the Ring.

Hope that helped you out Nevavarein

[Nevavarein]

***(thanx Alcfalath)***:)

[Lhunithiliel]

I am the "poor fool who don't know the Ring could think" :p

And I feel fine with this, for what is true is true and truth makes me comphortable!:p Anf the truth is: The Ring can not think :)

Team "A", should I consider we have allready won, as I see that you have NOTHING more to add in defence of your thesis than using such trifles as f.ex. the use of prepositions?!?!
Because, when someone from our team said "controlled by the ring", you cling onto this preposition to mistankenly AGAIN! allege that it was the ring that controlled.
How many times does Team "B" have to repeat and provide unbeatable arguments of the one and only truth - the Ring was made and acted as a channel for the powers of Sauron. It was Sauron who controlled THROUGH the ring.
-------------
This is what I have to say in this early morning (at least here it is). But later I'll come back with some fresh thoughts. :p

[Lhunithiliel]

As I promissed, I'm back.
To the Judges of this debate: I AM SORRY, but this post is going to be long.
I did what I could to be as brief as possible, however.

Reading various sources, some thoughts “hit” me… concerning the magical abilities of the Ring, which Team “A” takes as the proof for the Ring’s sentience.

1/ Much has been said that the Ring ITSELF exercised influence over its bearers and that this is precisely what makes it a “sentient” being.
But isn’t it true that it was the BEARERS who simply USED the abilities of the Ring ACCORDING to THEIR personal abilities and desires?
See… Gollum was a sneaky little hobbit-kin creature, long time ago unloved by his people, so he preferred to stay “hidden” and THAT’s the first (and I guess – the only) “magical” feature of the ring that he WISHED to use and USED– stay “invisible”.
So, it was NOT the Ring that imposed its magic upon Gollum but completely visa-versa.
The same was constantly happening to all the other hobbits (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam) – creatures, who “by origin are short, can walk very quietly and are hard to spot when they don't want to be seen.”
Take Frodo. At first, when he had not much knowledge of the abilities or the real powers that controlled the Ring, he seldom used it and it was always with the natural (for the Hobbits) desire to stay “invisible”. Only after his pretty little head had been filled with the knowledge about the Ring and why was it so important to Sauron, and why was it so important to be destroyed, only when Sauron, having already sensed his “precious” active and had started again using it as a channel for his own malice and evil will to corrupt, ONLY then a desire (UNCONSCIOUSLY for Frodo himself!) was born in Frodo’s head – to wield the greater power within the Ring, the powers that at this point Frodo could already sense. Only at this point Frodo started using the Ring for other purposes different from just staying invisible (as before) – He started USING the Ring to subordinate others to his own will (Gollum, Sam) – Wasn’t he a good “student” of Sauron!

So, it is becoming crystal clear – The Ring is not a sentient being itself with its own free will, but a magical object USED by its bearers for THEIR purposes. It depended on the purpose of the bearer that one or another of the “magical” abilities of the Ring were demonstrated.

2/ In short: Through the Ring, the bearers usually passed from the real world into the spiritual world. This is the place where Sauron could exercise his powers in full strength…… But on the other hand, this is the world where the other forces, those which opposed Sauron’s evil, also had great influence. This explains to me why Frodo, whenever putting the ring on, was hearing voices in his head – voices which demanded him to take the ring off. Clear – those were the powers of the Good and at this point, when the bearer was in the spiritual world, the Ring was used as a conductor to the great spiritual forces – both evil and good, which controlled the bearer.
Nothing much left for the Ring’s “free will” and “sentience” – Right?

In summary, my above observations once again clearly proof that the Ring could never be sentient. It did not act by its own free will but was just a ….(that word, you know)

[Nóm]

Team B said
But isn’t it true that it was the BEARERS who simply USED the abilities of the Ring ACCORDING to THEIR personal abilities and desires?

It is true that the Hobbits used the Ring to their advantage, and in accordance with their own needs at first, but that changed as the Ring took hold of one's mind. It obviously did so with Gollum. With Bilbo it started working pretty quickly:
Here's what Gandalf said...
Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had "won" it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his "birthday present". The lies were too much alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once.

It was The One Ring which caused these Hobbits to use it to what seemed like their advantage. Untimately any use of the One Ring was a disadvantage because it furthered the Obsession the wearers had with the Ring.

By Team B
So, it was NOT the Ring that imposed its magic upon Gollum but completely visa-versa.
You wanna bet? :D

Spoken by Gandalf
'With that power I should
have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.'
Spoken by Gandalf
'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself.
Spoked by GandalfThe wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.'

[gate7ole]

I’m back!
First Lhunithiliel, let me doubt for your win. The fact that we’re silent for a day, means only this: That you have not provided anything new, that you always repeat the same arguments which we have rejected many times.
On the subject. The GREAT error in your case in general is that you explain the ring’s behavior in two different ways for two different periods of its existence. And you do so, because none of those two explanations can stand in both periods. While our explanation is one, unique and stands for ALL the periods. Briefly (and repeated for a ..nth time), the ring’s behavior during Sauron’s absence and during Sauron’s presence cannot be different. The ring acted in a similar way throughout its whole career as an evil ring. You cannot claim that it was first the destiny (or the plan of God) that drove it and then Sauron. Our assumption is much more consistent. The ring itself was responsible for its actions and behaved according to a plan that never changed.
As for some “new” arguments that arose,

But isn’t it true that it was the BEARERS who simply USED the abilities of the Ring ACCORDING to THEIR personal abilities and desires?

come on, you know you’re wrong. The bearers NEVER had any mastership on the ring. They were too weak in mind. They could only use its invisibility. This might be important to the hobbits and Gollum, but the real power of the ring lied elsewhere.

So, it is becoming crystal clear – The Ring is not a sentient being itself with its own free will, but a magical object USED by its bearers for THEIR purposes. It depended on the purpose of the bearer that one or another of the “magical” abilities of the Ring were demonstrated.

So, the continuous betrays of the ring (to Isildur, Gollum, Frodo), the force to Frodo to wear it and be revealed, all those are choices of the bearers? Or were they choices of Illuvatar and Sauron? No, let me believe the simpler and so the most probable answer: they were choices of the ring!

[Lhunithiliel]

MY LAST ARGUMENTS ON THIS DEBATE.
(For "The Ring cannot think")

1. My previous post explains why the Ring did none of its trick as to save itself at the moment it was clear that it had been brought to Orodruin to be destroyed. At this point too, AS ALWAYS, the Ring was under the control of the will of its now new Master(Frodo) who WIELD it with HIS OWN full conscience and will….
2. Frodo was more and more in a state of a trans while in Mordor and nearer to Mount Doom = he was more and more in the spiritual world, where his soul could resist not much to the mighty dark will > this led to his actions at the cracks of MD (to almost claim the world!).
And it is again here and at this precise moment, when the forces of the Good had their impact – in the form of pity that Frodo felt.
3. Team “A” admits that the Ring, being a sentient being, was by ITS OWN WILL influencing the bearers.
But remember that Frodo felt ill and his state even worsened a long time AFTER the ring AND Sauron had been destroyed.
So, what, do you think, was the reason? The Ring was already not “in the picture”, as you like to express yourselves.

It is OBVIOUS that the never completely destroyed Evil was still “at work” and Frodo needed to go the Blessed Realm where only he could be probably healed, for there the good powers were stronger, being so close to the island of the Valar.

AS A CONCLUSION (out of everything provided above):
The Ring is not a sentient being, for it was envisaged, forged and used as a tool, as a channel of the greater forces.

----------------
Oh, gate7ole, if you can't see the new points in my arguments, this because you DON'T WANT to. The ring's behaviour is AT ALL TIMES and in ALL CIRCUMSTANCES explained by one truth - the one that we = Team "B" have so brilliantly defended!
---------------
From here on, I guess the Judges will do their work.
Whatever their decision is, I would like you ALL to know that I have enjoyed this debate very much. Team "A", you were great oponents!

[Melian Le Fay]

The members of the team A constantly imply that THE RING had the power over the bearers (save, of course, Sauron). In their opinion, it was the ring that controlled the minds of the bearers, the one that could dominate their will.
Then, the A team states that the ring is a sentient being, but a sentient being in the meaning of other, actuall sentient beings created by Iluvatar (oh, mine, we've mentioned God again! :eek: ). The ring, as they say, is made by the portion fo Sauron's will, and thus became sentient. But not sentient as we are, for we were made by god. It is sentient in a different way, a more simple way.

Originally posted by Confusticated: ..."That Sauron did not create what would be defined by humans as life, but more of a life - like object. Darn close to life, because it could sense, though in ways we could not even begin to imagine. It could also think, it's own way...which seems have included logic if at least a small level."

On the other hand, we have Sauron, a powerfull being, a Maia, a student of Morgoth's, a creature of strong will...
So, team A claims that a simple, barely, not-so-much-a-being CAN controll wills of more "developed" beings, while they do not even consider the possibility it could have been Sauron who, with his strong will - controlled others.
A simple almost-being CAN controll the wills, but a powerfull being - DOESN'T want to, huh? :confused:
It is more LOGICAL to think that Sauron was the one who controlled the bearers, and poured evil into them, than a ring, which, by the posts of team A, can "think in a small level".

And I would kindly ask the A team to stop taking team B's refferences of Iluvatar and other "higher forces" out of the context! You sound like that is the only argument we use to prove our opinion!!! They were menitoned in a specific context, and please, consider them within it!

[Nóm]

Lhunithiliel provided a dictionary definition of sentient which includes anything that has senses, not only thought. Therefore all living beings are sentient, though not in the same way as humans. Just as the One Ring was not in the same way as humans. NO thing can imagine what a sense is like without having that sense therefore we could not imagine exactly how the Ring senses. Just as we can not imagine what bacteria feel.

The ring’s behaviour during the absence and presence of Sauron is based on a consistent plan to reunite with the master. The ring’s strength definitely grows as the bearer approaches Sauron because the two spirits (of Sauron and the ring) were a some time ago one spirit, and the links have not been completely destroyed. But this does not mean that it is actually Sauron who guides the ring, since many of its actions required knowledge of the Ring's situation which Sauron did not have. As the One Ring neared Sauron and grew stronger it was only able to gain control over Frodo at the very end. Right at the cracks of doom,Frodo held out so long against the One Ring because he was strong minded. Gollum for example would not have been able to do this because he was previously weakend by the One Ring, and all this happend without Sauron's knowledge.
But as a final point for our Side: the continuous and adoptive behaviour of the ring (shrinking/growing)shows that there was some sort of intelligence in the ring that decided what was the best action for the fulfillment of the plan. The Ring's awareness of it's situation shows that it could sense. So the One Ring is Sentient!
And as our final statement against your arguements: The fact that you first claimed Sauron controlled the One Ring and then began to switch back and forth between him and the 'greater force' is the strongest evidence against your arguements and I think it speaks for it's self.

We have enjoyed this debate, and I look forward to discussing this once the debate has been judged.

[Eledhwen]

Gate7ole said:the ring’s behavior during Sauron’s absence and during Sauron’s presence cannot be different.Sauron was never absent. He would have been if Isuldur had thrown the ring into the cracks of doom, but he didn't. Sauron was present in Middle Earth throughout the ring's existence.The bearers NEVER had any mastership on the ring. So, the continuous betrays of the ring (to Isildur, Gollum, Frodo), the force to Frodo to wear it and be revealed, all those are choices of the bearers? Frodo found himself fighting an evil force trying to make him put the ring on, but ONLY when an external evil force was near (Nazgul/Mordor). Until Frodo got to the Cracks of Doom, his will over his own actions was stronger than the will of the person trying to get him to reveal himself.

Isildur's behaviour was not controlled by the ring, but by his own lust for power which, with Sauron 'out of the way', he thought the ring would give him. He was in the river when he lost the ring - hardly proof of anyone's choice of action.

Gollum simply used the ring as a cloak of invisibility for 500 years, then lost it. He never tried to master the ring, and it never tried to master him because it couldn't think.but the real power of the ring lied elsewhereAt last you agree with us! Why not make it official and acknowledge defeat?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Gollum simply used the ring as a cloak of invisibility for 500 years, then lost it. He never tried to master the ring, and it never tried to master him because it couldn't think.At last you agree with us! Why not make it official and acknowledge defeat?
I hope you aren't expecting an answer to that anytime soon. I beleive the debate ends today though I do not know what time. Team A posted it's final statement last night.

[Eledhwen]

I didn't notice the cut-off date for the debate. I feel like a boxer who took a swing after the bell.

[pohuist]

The debate oficially ends today at 12pm (24:00) at Gr.-5 hours (a standard forum time) which incidentally equals to EDS (US)., 4 hours after this post.

If Eledhwen's notice is not a final summation, I would like someone from Team B to make one, otherwise, please do not post anymore. Thanks, everyone. I will open a poll real soon. The results of judging would be in (hopefully) by next Thursday.

[Lhunithiliel]

Final Statment for Team "B"
The Ring is not sentient

1. The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Sixth edition, year 2000 gives the following definition of the word "sentient":
: sentient adj. = able to see or feel things through the senses
As the Ring never demonstarted ANY of the above abilities, IT IS NOT SENTIENT.

2.The Ring is NOT sentient, meaning , it could not act by it's OWN FREE WILL, for it was nothing but a "conductor" of the FREE WILL OF EVIL which had made it, and a tool in the plans of the GREAT FORCES, often both good and especially evil, that ruled the course of events in ME.
It was envisaged, forged and used only as a tool - well controlled and used.

3. The Ring is NOT sentient, because it was a creation of Sauron, a Maia, who had not the authority of creation, a power only Illuvatar "The Creator" had.

4. The Ring's behaviour and its "magical" tricks were accepted by Team "A" as the most important argument for proving out the "sentience" of the ring.
But the demonstated abilities are easily explained with NO presence or need of ANY sentience whatever.
Being a conductor of Evil, the ring was strongly attracted by other sources of this power. Throughout the whole story it is obvious that it demonstrated most active behaviour whenever near and as nearer to such sources (the Nazgul, the Orcs, Mordor etc.).
'Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons.
On the other hand, its "magical" abilities were used by the current bearer at a particular period of time and this very same bearer was the one to USE the Ring AGAIN as a condutor of HIS own free will to achieve certain goal(s).
In evil hands it might have done great evil. Worst of all, it might have fallen into the hands of the Enemy. Indeed it certainly would; for this is the One, and he is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself.
Clearly shown that it DEPENDED ON THE BEARER what the ring would be used for! Nothing much left for the free will" and the "sentience" of the ring!

Therefore, based on the above arguments and all the posts of the members of Team "B", we state:

The Ring is NOT sentient