Nameless Things -- a contradiction

[Beorn]

We fought far under living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring to report to darken the light of day...

What are these nameless things, and how were they created?

[Telcontar]

There's reference to the struggle between Melkor and the other Valar, how each time the Valar would raise something up, Melkor would work to cast it down. As each thing was created, it was altered or marked by Melkor's actions. One could assume that those nameless things far beneath the earth were the residual of the conflicts. Since the Elves and later Men did most of the naming of flora & fawna, and neither of their species delved deeply into the earth, it stands to reason that recorded history of ME would not show what the 'Nameless Things' were. And as the Dwarves did not share their language or their recorded history, one can only guess which if any of these creatures were encountered by the Dwarves.

[Thorin]

That makes sense, after all Eru didn't make all the nameless things, I'm sure. Or maybe he did and they were corrupted by Melkor's evil. Of course, Gandalf said that Sauron didn't know them. If Melkor corrupted them or used them in any way, Sauron, being his servant, would have known them correct? Unless they went out of the reaches of his memory in their offspring....Good grief, I'm arguing with myself...

Some probably were spawned from other unexplainable creatures. Ungoliant (another enigma) spawned Shelob and others which spawned more (spiders in Mirkwood). The stone throwing giants in the Hobbit, whatever evil was on Caradhras, the Watcher in the Lake and who knows what else seem to be almost other enigmas like Bombadil. I wonder if Tolkien even had an explanation for them when he wrote Gandalf's quote.

[Galan`Black]

lol. I've alrady seen 3 threads about this same topic. I agree with Telcontar of the happenings with Melkor and Valar, but the watcher I have some clue. I just read about a topic that someone said that the Watcher of the Mines of Moria was a kraken. Were krakens ever existing in ME? I do not know, but it should ponder in your head. Oh and a kraken is a Norweigen Myth.

[Galan`Black]

=] I thought krakens were myths, I never thought they were real. Though it is interesting that something so big can live.

[Hama]

WHat is a kraken...enlighten us.
By the way, I think that the stone giants, were in fact large trolls, such as those mentioned in LoTR. The creature of the lake was probably something fostered by Sauron or Morgoth before him. Remember, Morgoth corrupted or made many things which were never mentioned. In the War of Wrath he unleashed many things that had never previously been seen by the Host of the West. Perhaps some of them, or their offspring lived or moved west of the Ered Luin. Almost everything which is not explained by Tolkien, is, or is a corruption of, a Vala or Ainur - such as dragons, balrogs, etc.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Hama
WHat is a kraken...enlighten us.
By the way, I think that the stone giants, were in fact large trolls, such as those mentioned in LoTR. The creature of the lake was probably something fostered by Sauron or Morgoth before him. Remember, Morgoth corrupted or made many things which were never mentioned. In the War of Wrath he unleashed many things that had never previously been seen by the Host of the West. Perhaps some of them, or their offspring lived or moved west of the Ered Luin. Almost everything which is not explained by Tolkien, is, or is a corruption of, a Vala or Ainur - such as dragons, balrogs, etc.


That could well be right.

[Hama]

Sorry, I meant to say that almost everything in Tolkien's world has to be one of the Ainur, or something one of the Ainur created. Dragons are the creation of Morgoth. Balrogs are Maia corrupted by Morgoth. Just meant to clarify my earlier statement.

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Hama
Sorry, I meant to say that almost everything in Tolkien's world has to be one of the Ainur, or something one of the Ainur created. Dragons are the creation of Morgoth. Balrogs are Maia corrupted by Morgoth. Just meant to clarify my earlier statement.


I think the dragons were corrupted and bred as well.

[Hama]

Sorry to get off topic here,
But the original dragons are the creation of Melkor and were bred under Thangorodrim. Most were not released until the war of wrath (such as ancalagon). By the way, the hobbit talks about Smaug coming from the Grey mountains. Has anyone found any reference to that?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Hama
Sorry to get off topic here,
But the original dragons are the creation of Melkor and were bred under Thangorodrim. Most were not released until the war of wrath (such as ancalagon). By the way, the hobbit talks about Smaug coming from the Grey mountains. Has anyone found any reference to that?


Yes my map says "the withered heath whence came the great worms" and i'm sure thorin says something about it 2. Grey mountains are right next 2 it.

[Hama]

No, I realized that references to Smaug's origin came from the Hobbit, but what about extra-hobbit sources. I have read the Silmarillion enough times to realize that there is nothing there, but what about HoMe?

[pohuist]

I asked this question in one of posts on some thread but nobody wanted to tackle it, so I hope to get a better responce here.

from the White Rider
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.
Now, Sauron was a Maia. How is it possible that something is older.

[Thorin]

Gandalf is talking about their existence on ME. As far as inhabiting ME in the form they are, they are older than Sauron. Sauron in his current form in Third Age, happened after the fall of Numenor. Even before that, Sauron wasn't always in ME with a physical form....

[Eledhwen]

I am not sure whether the Maiar are of the Ainur. The Maiar, as you probably know, were the servants and helpers of the Valar. They were both were created before the World, but as far as I know, Tolkien did not say whether the greater were created before the lesser.

Sauron was a Maia of Aule and only later became a lieutenant of Melkor, so was not likely to be aware of the hidden "nameless things" corrupted by Melkor's discord.

Balrogs are also of the order of the Maiar, so I have to agree with Thorin - it must be something to do with the amount of time they have been in the World that classifies them as older, but I don't think his physical form can be taken into account in deciding his age; more important is his knowledge of Middle Earth and what is contained in it (ie: was it hidden from him before he got there), and for that it doesn't matter whether he was there in body or spirit.

[Tyaronumen]

I agree that I don't think that Gandy's statement has much to do with Saurons physical forms' age... Nor do I think that the Maiar were created after the Valar (well, they might have been, but I don't think that is what is being said here, either)

I think that it has to do with when Sauron entered Ea from the Timeless Halls... He probably entered Ea after the "Nameless Things" that dwell at the roots of the Misty Mountains entered Ea themselves (if there were Maiar) or were created and corrupted by Morgoth (if they were indigenous to Middle-Earth). To me, this seems most likely, since we see a particular instance when a Valar (Tulkas) entered Ea after the ball (of existence) had already started rolling...

[Ancalagon]

I am not sure whether the Maiar are of the Ainur.
'Ainur' is the collective term for all those who evolved from the mind of Eru in the beginning. There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

Personally, I don't think there is anything older than Sauron, as Maia, however, upon Middle-Earth, it could be assumed that these 'nameless-things' were Maia who answered the call of Melkor before Sauron left Aule. That to me seems logical, however, even if they stayed with Melkor during Saurons reign as his Luitenant, they would have creep away to the deep, dark places of the earth after the destruction of Angband, and the capture of Melkor. It seems to me they got comfy and didn't bother coming back again!

[Ceorl]

Maiar were most definitely Ainur. The Ainur were all the beings who took part in the Ainulindale and the Maiar were part of that group.

Also remember that Gandalf was a character and while he knew alot, he did not know everything. When they took on worldly forms they lost much of their considerable knowledge and were forced to relearn it through slow experience. It is possible, that these forgotten creatures were of the same sort as Ungoliant; their origins are unknown but they entered Arda at the smae time as the Ainur did and found themselves homes their.

[gate7ole]

"Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

I think that it is clear that here Gandalf doesn't mean that they are older in age but in presence upon ME. So I have to agree with all the previous answers on the subject.

But I have one more argument. Could it be that a tiny error slipped from Tolkien here and this word "older" should be something else? I mean we can always explain those details with much assumption, but there is always the probability of inconsistence. Besides Sil was never finished and changes were made all the time

[Eledhwen]

I think that Tolkien could have lived to 120 and not finished the Silmarillion - it's like the bible of ME, a huge undertaking, so maybe he would have changed the word 'older' sooner or later.

By the way, Ancalagon, I suspect Tolkien would have pronounced Lieutenant as "Leftenant" (UK pronounciation), and not "Luitenant" (don't ask me why we pronounce it like that!).

[Lantarion]

There is nothing more I can find to add to these fine answers.
A similar pronunciation oddity that I have found is 'colonel'. If it's written with an 'l', then why on earth is it prounounced 'kernel'?! :o
:)

[Ancalagon]

By the way, Ancalagon, I suspect Tolkien would have pronounced Lieutenant as "Leftenant" (UK pronounciation), and not "Luitenant" (don't ask me why we pronounce it like that!).

Thanks for that Eledhwen, I know how to pronounce, I obviously don't know how to spell;)

[pohuist]

It seems that there is a consensus -- the age of things in ME is defined by the time they are present in ME. That was my position as well, but I wanted first to hear from everybody.
That must also finally settle the argument as to who is older Elves or Ents. No matter whether Ents are spirits or not, by the same token as above, Elves are older.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by pohuist
It seems that there is a consensus -- the age of things in ME is defined by the time they are present in ME. That was my position as well, but I wanted first to hear from everybody.
That must also finally settle the argument as to who is older Elves or Ents. No matter whether Ents are spirits or not, by the same token as above, Elves are older.
:D :D :D
Cunning pohuist!
So, it was just a "trap"!
But (Oh, that Lhunithiliel! Always with her "but"!:mad: ) ...But, then who is older? - Sauron, the nameless creatures, the Ents or the Elves?:p

[pohuist]

Not cunning, just subtle:D
It wasn't a trap, of course, once you trying to think about many issues simultaneously, you try to put all your knowledge into some kind of a system. This thread, besides a thing in itself, is also another way to look at another issue.

Now to your question. We have Nameless Things (NT) older than Sauron
and Elves older than Ents.
Ents appeared when ME became green, probably before Melkor, much less Sauron came to ME. Elves were there from the beginning (albeit sleeping). According to the consensus on this forum NM must be some Ainur corrupted by Melkor.

From the above we have in order of descending age Elves, Ents, NT, Sauron. To corroborate that ordering, since Trebeard is the 'oldest living thing', Ents should be older than NM. Its interesting, though, how Gandalf knows this. Olorin would, but Gandalf? He is younger than all of them...

[Ancalagon]

Is Tom older than them also?

[pohuist]

It is impossible to say, because we count the age as the age in ME. I don't thing there is a reference anywhere as to when Tom appeared in ME.

[Nóm]

But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'
Before the river and the trees?
He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless? I think Tom was there before the Ainur..:o

[pohuist]

It suggestion is very plausible. NT would unlikely come to ME before Morgoth, and since Tom was there before Morgoth, that would make hin older. However, there is no positive proof that he is in fact older.