Individual Debate - Maedhros vs Gothmog

[Ancalagon]

Following on from the recent debate between Grond and I, Maedhros and Gothmog will endeavor to search for the hard-fought truths hidden in the following question;

The Question;

Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour. The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
...at last Legolas said: 'I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them.' The Return of the King

'If Elladan and Elrohir were among those who feared the spirits of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, does that mean they chose mortality and remained in Middle-Earth?'


As this debate is being held in The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, Maedhros, representing The Guild of Tolkienologists, will choose his side of the debate first.

There will be 5 individual judges for this debate. There will also be a poll, but it will not count as a vote either way.

This debate is open only to Maedhros and Gothmog, all discussion about the debate should be left until after closing statements are made by both participants.

My thanks to Tar-Elenion for planting the seed for the subject of this debate;)

[Maedhros]

'If Elladan and Elrohir were among those who feared the spirits of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, does that mean they chose mortality and remained in Middle-Earth?'
I'm having trouble with the sides, because I'm not sure what you're asking.
What are they:
1. That they chose mortality and stayed in ME already at that time.
2. That they didn't choose yet.
3. That they chose to be of the eldar.

I need you to clarify this to take my side.

[Ancalagon]

The question was set deliberately with the additional quotes to prompt a number of responses. However, as is clear, the main theme is whether;

1. They were afraid like those around them, save Legolas.
2. This fear was a result of their mortality?
3. Does this suggest that they remained Mortal?

or

1. They were unafraid, and like Legolas had no fear of the spirits of dead men.
2. Their lack of fear was a result of their immortality?
3. Does this suggest they had alread chosen immortality?

The main crux is whether they had chosen their fate before entering the Paths of the Dead. I do not wish to elaborate any further than this as it takes away from nature of the debate. Remember, no-one knows what they chose, whether it was before or after this event; so for this debate you are choosing a side to discuss one possible choice they may have made and why!

If this is still unclear, I will re-word the question to simplify it.

[Maedhros]

Let me see if got this correctly.
The arguing point is that:
1. Had chosen their way before the paths of the dead.
2. Hadn't chosen their way before the paths of the dead.

Is that it?

[Ancalagon]

Ok Maedhros,


Do you think Elladan and Elrohir had already chosen their fate before entering The Paths of the Dead?

Depending on what you choose, you must argue your reasons why! Your opponent must then counter your position.

The question was never meant to be easy;)

[Maedhros]

We have the topic:
Do you think Elladan and Elrohir had already chosen their fate before entering The Paths of the Dead?
I say no. Why, because the author himself said so:
From the letters of JRRT, 153:
Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
Notice the quote states that after Elrond passes over the Sea, this happened after Elladan and Elrohir passed throught the Paths of the Dead.
The seemingly problem with this position is that in this quote:
Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour. The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
If Elladan and Elrohir had not chosen their fates, why were they afraid of the ghosts of men. If they had chosen to remain mortal, they would have feared them, but that is not the case because the author has stated that they postponed their decision.
Also they were half-elven not full elves, they hated the orcs for what they did to their mother and the always hunted them down like dogs. Delaying their decision gave them the lifespan of elves and therefore the advantages of not ageing and being free of sickness. This definitely help them when they were a part of the war against Sauron.

[Gothmog]

So it begins. The bright Sword of Maedhros against the Shadow and Fire of Gothmog.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. Appendix A: THE NÚMENOREAN KINGS

Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour. The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror. The quote at the heart of the question.

Elladan and Elrohir Had made their choice before entering ‘The Paths of the Dead’ else they would not have feared the spirits of Men. As Sons of Elrond they no-doubt knew much of the abilities of these spirits but as immortal Elves they would have had little fear of them. To account for this quote and it pointing to only Legolas as being ‘Of the Elves’ it seems to me that the sons had indeed chosen to be mortal. This would not affect their lifespan during the time of the war of the ring.

She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But even if it were not so, and her heart turned toward you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."
'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."
"I see," said Aragorn, "that means i have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth. "
Appendix A: THE TALE OF ARAGORN AND ARWEN

The parts in bold in both the above quotes show when the choice would have its effect. But, there is nothing to show that this happens at the moment of choice. Arwen made her choice some years before the War of the Ring yet still lived ‘With the youth of the Eldar’
'But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresee it, and how it may come to pass is hidden from me. Yet with your hope I will hope. And the Shadow I utterly reject. But neither, lady, is the Twilight for me; for I am mortal, and if you will cleave to me, Evenstar, then the Twilight you must also renounce."
'And she stood then as still as a white tree, looking into the West, and at last she said: "i will cleave to you. Dúnadan, and turn from the Twilight, Yet there lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin." She loved her father dearly.
Appendix A: THE TALE OF ARAGORN AND ARWEN

Elladan and Elrohir having already made the choice would however account for them fearing the spirits as they would by their decision have opened themselves to the human side of their heritage and started the process of moving away from viewing the world from an Elvish perspective. The final result of this decision, them becoming Mortal, would not occur until Elrond left Middle-earth. Therefore, your view that.Delaying their decision gave them the lifespan of elves and therefore the advantages of not ageing and being free of sickness. This definitely help them when they were a part of the war against Sauron. Has nothing to back it up. While Elrond remained in Middle-earth his children did not ‘Age’ as do Men nor did they suffer from ‘Sickness’ as do Men. They had however started to change psychologically and this is why they felt fear of the spirits and only Legolas was accounted Elvish.

You gave this From the letters of JRRT, 153:The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while. Sounds good’ But Letter 153: Ends:-[The draft ends here. At the top, Tolkien has written: 'Not sent', and has added: 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'] So It seems that this letter does not carry the authority of Tolkien as he decided it was not to be sent.

[Maedhros]

Elladan and Elrohir Had made their choice before entering ‘The Paths of the Dead’ else they would not have feared the spirits of Men. As Sons of Elrond they no-doubt knew much of the abilities of these spirits but as immortal Elves they would have had little fear of them. To account for this quote and it pointing to only Legolas as being ‘Of the Elves’ it seems to me that the sons had indeed chosen to be mortal. This would not affect their lifespan during the time of the war of the ring.
You seem to be implying that the Elladan and Elrohir had chosen to be mortals and therefore they were "afraid" of the spirits of Men. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Elladan and Elrohir were "Peredhel", they were not Elf nor Man. A Peredhel had the youth of the Eldar, and was not an eldar himself. The author is correct in asserting that Legolas was the only elf, because he was. Because they were not Elves, but Peredhel, they were "affected" by the ghosts of men.
Elladan and Elrohir having already made the choice would however account for them fearing the spirits as they would by their decision have opened themselves to the human side of their heritage and started the process of moving away from viewing the world from an Elvish perspective. The final result of this decision, them becoming Mortal, would not occur until Elrond left Middle-earth. Therefore, your view that.
You speak with only guesses and nothing solid from the text. Do you have any proof in the books that they had taken their choice before the "Paths of the Dead"?, or only conjectures.
Has nothing to back it up. While Elrond remained in Middle-earth his children did not ‘Age’ as do Men nor did they suffer from ‘Sickness’ as do Men. They had however started to change psychologically and this is why they felt fear of the spirits and only Legolas was accounted Elvish.
No, they were not accounted to be Elves because they were Peredhel and neither elves nor men.
So It seems that this letter does not carry the authority of Tolkien as he decided it was not to be sent.
Oh really?
From the Letters of JRRT: Introduction
The consequence is that an immense number of letters by Tolkien survive; and when, with the help of Christopher Tolkien, I began work on this selection, it became obvious that an enormous quantity of material would have to be omitted, and that only passages of particular interest could be included. Naturally, priority has been given to those letters where Tolkien discusses his own books
Hmmmm. I would have to go with Christopher Tolkien judgement in this one. The fact that it was not send does not changes the fact that it was written by him and in it he discusses his book. The Silmarillion was not published in it's lifetime, does it not have the authority of JRRT then. We have then, that he wrote something explaining his books and did not changed it in later writtings, seems to me like that was his take on that, else why did CT published it?
When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
Another aditional point. Arwen chose to be mortal because of the love that she had for Aragorn. Elladan and Elrohir had no such commitment. They loved her mother Celebrían. She went to the havens:
In 2509 Celebrían wife of Elrond was journeying to Lórien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound. She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea.
From LOTR: Many Meetings:
But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs.
This is an important reason for them to wait for their decision until the last possible moment, and therefore not in the midst of the Third Age. They loved their mother too much.

[Gothmog]

You seem to be implying that the Elladan and Elrohir had chosen to be mortals and therefore they were "afraid" of the spirits of Men. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Elladan and Elrohir were "Peredhel", they were not Elf nor Man. A Peredhel had the youth of the Eldar, and was not an eldar himself. The author is correct in asserting that Legolas was the only elf, because he was. Because they were not Elves, but Peredhel, they were "affected" by the ghosts of men.
I am not ‘Implying’ anything. I am stating my opinion that they had already chosen to be mortal and it was due to this that they were “afraid”.

You say that the brothers were not Elf nor Man. Can you tell me just what is the difference between the two and show why they were neither?There are certain things in this world that have to be accepted as 'facts'. The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race.The Elves appeared on Earth earlier, but not (mythologically or geologically) much earlier; they were 'immortal', and did not 'die' except by accident. Men, when they appeared on the scene (that is, when they met the Elves), were, however, much as they now are: they 'died', even if they escaped all accidents, at about the age of 70 to 80. Morgoth's Ring: ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH The Debate of Finrod and Andreth
Does not seem to be that big a gap to fit a couple of bodies into.

You speak with only guesses and nothing solid from the text. Do you have any proof in the books that they had taken their choice before the "Paths of the Dead"?, or only conjectures. The same ‘Proof’ you have that they choose later. We each have our interpretations of what and when.

Oh really?
Hmmmm. I would have to go with Christopher Tolkien judgement in this one. The fact that it was not send does not changes the fact that it was written by him and in it he discusses his book. The Silmarillion was not published in it's lifetime, does it not have the authority of JRRT then. We have then, that he wrote something explaining his books and did not changed it in later writtings, seems to me like that was his take on that, else why did CT published it?
Yes Really.
By all means go with Christopher Tolkien, I will go with JRR Tolkien. This was not a story that had, as an intended end-point, publication, it was a letter to someone. The unfinished stories were a part of the process and in some cases can give insight into aspects of the finished work. The same is also true of the Letters he Sent to people explaining parts of the work. However, this letter was not sent. This had to be a conscious decision upon His part that it was not suitable. Therefore it lacks much as an authority
Another aditional point. Arwen chose to be mortal because of the love that she had for Aragorn. Elladan and Elrohir had no such commitment. They loved her mother Celebrían. She went to the havens: The reasons behind Arwen’s choice have no bearing upon the debate as it not for us to try to show WHY Elladan and Elrohir made their choice only WHEN. Indeed, we know nothing of any commitment they may have save to the killing of orcs. This could well be all that they needed to stay since there are no orcs in the undying lands!
What I showed was that Arwen made her choice some time before the war of the Ring. Yet she did not become Mortal until after the departure of her father.

This is an important reason for them to wait for their decision until the last possible moment, and therefore not in the midst of the Third Age. They loved their mother too much. If they loved their mother to such an extent why then did they not travel to the West with their father? So they went about taking revenge upon the orcs for what they did. This does not show that they had not made their decision earlier.

[Maedhros]

You say that the brothers were not Elf nor Man. Can you tell me just what is the difference between the two and show why they were neither?
They were neither, they were Peredhel or Peredhil.
From the THE SHIBBOLETH OF FËANOR:
[The term Pereldar 'Half-eldar' was originally used of the Nandor or Danas (see V.200, 215), but it is here used as is the Sindarin form Peredhil in Appendix A (I, i) of Elrond and Elros;cf. i-Pheredhil p. 256, Peredil p. 348.]
From LOTR: Appendix A:
At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong.
They were not either elves nor men. They had not chosen yet what they would become. They had no rush, since they had still time to make the decision and they were involved in the war against Sauron. Unlike her sister Arwen, they had no (human) love interest. Their sister Arwen, who was also a Peredhil, waited after the defeat of Sauron and the restoration of the Ancient Realms to make her choice. Her brothers, who had no such constraints and were older, didn't need to make a decision during the war either.
By all means go with Christopher Tolkien, I will go with JRR Tolkien. This was not a story that had, as an intended end-point, publication, it was a letter to someone. The unfinished stories were a part of the process and in some cases can give insight into aspects of the finished work. The same is also true of the Letters he Sent to people explaining parts of the work. However, this letter was not sent. This had to be a conscious decision upon His part that it was not suitable. Therefore it lacks much as an authority
I think that I will go with both CT and JRRT, after all the letter was written by JRRT himself. I disagree that it lacks authority.
When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
What he wrote in this letter, does not in any way, contradicts his position on the matter. It's the other way around, it was a very detailed and serious thought on his own work, as stated in the draft.
'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'
It was a very serious thoughts on his part, not something that he dismissed.
If they loved their mother to such an extent why then did they not travel to the West with their father? So they went about taking revenge upon the orcs for what they did. This does not show that they had not made their decision earlier.
As I have said before, they were engaged in a war. The choice of their fate is an extremely important argument to ponder. They had no human love interest as her sister. They had no reason to make a choice in this matter until the war was over, why rush things. The author himself states that they remained in ME.
LOTR Prologue:
There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.
You see, the sons Elladan and Elrohir long remained, so it means that they eventually departed. Which is in entire accord with the Letter that I quoted.
The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

[Gothmog]

They were neither, they were Peredhel or Peredhil.
From the THE SHIBBOLETH OF FËANOR:
quote:

[The term Pereldar 'Half-eldar' was originally used of the Nandor or Danas (see V.200, 215), but it is here used as is the Sindarin form Peredhil in Appendix A (I, i) of Elrond and Elros;cf. i-Pheredhil p. 256, Peredil p. 348.]

They were Half or somewhat more than Half-Elven with the choice of which kindred they would be joined with. They chose Men.

They were not either elves nor men. They had not chosen yet what they would become. They had no rush, since they had still time to make the decision and they were involved in the war against Sauron. Unlike her sister Arwen, they had no (human) love interest. Their sister Arwen, who was also a Peredhil, waited after the defeat of Sauron and the restoration of the Ancient Realms to make her choice. Her brothers, who had no such constraints and were older, didn't need to make a decision during the war either.
2931 Aragorn son of Arathorn II born on March 1st.

2951 Arwen, newly returned from Lórien, meets Aragorn in the woods of Imladris. Aragorn out into the Wild

2980 Aragorn enters Lórien and there meets again Arwen Undómiel. Aragorn gives her the ring of Barahir, and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth.

3018 – 3019 The War of the Ring.
Appendix B: THE TALE OF YEARS

Arwen made her choice in 2951 some 68 years before the defeat of Sauron. She was forced to wait until the restoration of the Ancient Realms to be Married to Aragorn.

I think that I will go with both CT and JRRT, after all the letter was written by JRRT himself. I disagree that it lacks authority.
By all means disagree. That is what debate is all about.
It was a very serious thoughts on his part, not something that he dismissed. I never said that he dismissed it. What I did say was “This had to be a conscious decision upon His part that it was not suitable.” A totally different statement.

As I have said before, they were engaged in a war. The choice of their fate is an extremely important argument to ponder. They had no human love interest as her sister. They had no reason to make a choice in this matter until the war was over, why rush things. The author himself states that they remained in ME.
You quoted My question yet did not answer it. I askedIf they loved their mother to such an extent why then did they not travel to the West with their father? So they went about taking revenge upon the orcs for what they did. This does not show that they had not made their decision earlier. Their father went West After the war.

You see, the sons Elladan and Elrohir long remained, so it means that they eventually departed. Which is in entire accord with the Letter that I quoted. It means that they remained and then departed true. However, it says nothing about where they departed to. Arwen, daughter of Elrond also long remained in Middle-earth and then departed.

Let us take a look at the difference between the kindred peoples of Elves and Men.

There are certain things in this world that have to be accepted as 'facts'. The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race.The Elves appeared on Earth earlier, but not (mythologically or geologically) much earlier; they were 'immortal', and did not 'die' except by accident. Men, when they appeared on the scene (that is, when they met the Elves), were, however, much as they now are: they 'died', even if they escaped all accidents, at about the age of 70 to 80. ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH The Debate of Finrod and Andreth

What then is the difference between Elves and Men? It cannot be physical else there could not be Half-Elven. This only leaves the psychological or the spiritual, the way they each look at the world or the way they interact with the world. Indeed, these two aspects are very closely related and the one has great effect upon the other and both affect the physical.

Elves do not ‘Die’ as do Men. For the Elves Death is an inconvenience, a trip if they are willing to the rest home in Mandos. Men on the other hand die and leave Arda forever. The difference between them is in the Fea of each, the Elves have a fea that is bound to Arda and a psychology that looks at things with a long view. Much needed when you are looking at centuries that match in number the days of a man’s life and yet see not your own end. The bodies of both Elves and Men are made of the stuff of Arda. The Fea of each affects the body differently. For the Elves it causes the body to last far longer, until eventually it is consumed from within by that very Fea. The Fea of Men is not to be bound to the circles of the world and so allows the body to age and decay so that at the correct time the Fea would be freed and be able to make the journey beyond the confines of Arda into the Void. And maybe even to the Timeless Halls of Iluvatar.

So then, what fear or dread could the houseless shades of ancient Men have for one whose Fea would go to Mandos and then, in time, once more to Arda. This fear is that of a Mortal being shown beyond all doubt his Mortality. Men knew nothing of what would happen after death and because of this feared it. So Elladan and Elrohir were not accounted as Elves, not because they were “Peredhel”, but because they had made their choice to become Mortal. In doing so they had started to change psychologically. Physically they would not change until their father left Middle-earth so their Fea, by the Doom of the Valar, still caused their bodies to act in the way of the Eldar. They remained strong and free from sickness as do the Eldar but not free from the fear of the ‘Paths of the Dead’. They felt that fear because having made the choice they were starting to look at the world in the fashion of Mortals.

[Maedhros]

I never said that he dismissed it. What I did say was “This had to be a conscious decision upon His part that it was not suitable.” A totally different statement.
From the Letters of JRRT: Introduction
The consequence is that an immense number of letters by Tolkien survive; and when, with the help of Christopher Tolkien, I began work on this selection, it became obvious that an enormous quantity of material would have to be omitted, and that only passages of particular interest could be included. Naturally, priority has been given to those letters where Tolkien discusses his own books
Ok, so Gothmog thinks that they are not suitable, yet his son Christopher Tolkien finds it very important to the extent to choose it for publication in the Letters of JRRT. Wasn't CT the one who published the Silmarillion in 1977, the same person who published the entire set of HOME books out there. After reading all of those materials, he still felt that this letter was important. Hmmmm. I think that I will go with both JRRT and CT on this one.;)
If they loved their mother to such an extent why then did they not travel to the West with their father? So they went about taking revenge upon the orcs for what they did. This does not show that they had not made their decision earlier.
This shows that they had a legitimate reason to delay their choice, to remain for a while longer in ME to help the new King order things and to hunt orcs so that they could depart at a later and safer time to see their mother. Remember, they, unlike their sister, had no human love interest, so they had nothing to remain in ME for.
From LOTR: Prologue
There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
We have that Elladan and Elrohir long remained, which means that they eventually departed. In the next line it states that Celeborn went to dwell with them in after the departure of Galadriel. Note that this departure means that she went to the west.
Note also that when Celeborn departs he takes all of the remaining elven folk that dwelt with him and they departed to the west. Elladan and Elrohir were a part of the company that Celeborn dwelt and so they all departed to the west. The twins had the special bonus that their mother who they loved so much, dwelt in the west.
From the Letters of JRRT 135:
Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
The own author says himself that the twins delay their choice after their father goes to the west, and he lead to us wether they went to the west or remained mortal.
So then, what fear or dread could the houseless shades of ancient Men have for one whose Fea would go to Mandos and then, in time, once more to Arda. This fear is that of a Mortal being shown beyond all doubt his Mortality. Men knew nothing of what would happen after death and because of this feared it. So Elladan and Elrohir were not accounted as Elves, not because they were “Peredhel”, but because they had made their choice to become Mortal. In doing so they had started to change psychologically. Physically they would not change until their father left Middle-earth so their Fea, by the Doom of the Valar, still caused their bodies to act in the way of the Eldar. They remained strong and free from sickness as do the Eldar but not free from the fear of the ‘Paths of the Dead’. They felt that fear because having made the choice they were starting to look at the world in the fashion of Mortals.
Let me get your theory right:
1. They had chosen to be mortal before they undertook the Paths of the Dead.
2. The choice would have taken effect after Elrond left ME.
3. After they have made their choice, although it's effects would start after they father left ME, they began changing psychologically.
Hmmmmmm. It just doesn't stand up. I have been searching the books of JRRT to see if they mention anything about the psychological effects you describe, and I have found none (I have searched). It's a pretty theory although it's only conjectures.
I have a better line of reasoning though.
They had not taken their choice of fate before entering the "Paths of the Dead". They were still Pereldhil. Their fate was neither that of Men or Elves. Their fate was not to stay in Arda until the end of it's days nor to depart it when they died. They were in a state of "limbo" regarding their fates. They had fear of what the ghost of men that dwell in the Paths of the Dead, because their fate had not yet been defined.
This is in accord with the books and does not create any "psychological" effects (he only mentions psychological difficulties when addressing the Rebirth of Elves) that don't exist in JRRT's LOTR and Silm literature.

[Gothmog]

Ok, so Gothmog thinks that they are not suitable, yet his son Christopher Tolkien finds it very important to the extent to choose it for publication in the Letters of JRRT. Wasn't CT the one who published the Silmarillion in 1977, the same person who published the entire set of HOME books out there. After reading all of those materials, he still felt that this letter was important. Hmmmm. I think that I will go with both JRRT and CT on this one
Not quite. I stated that in my view JRR Tolkien viewed this letter as unsuitable as he made a Conscious decision Not to send it.

This shows that they had a legitimate reason to delay their choice, to remain for a while longer in ME to help the new King order things and to hunt orcs so that they could depart at a later and safer time to see their mother. Remember, they, unlike their sister, had no human love interest, so they had nothing to remain in ME for.
It shows nothing of the sort. It shows that their love for their mother is less than you have made it out to be. Where does it show that they had no human love interest? They may well, as did their uncle, have had great love for the Race of Man and of Aragorn in particular (they knew him and had rode with him even before he met Arwen). This would be enough for them to decide to become mortal.

We have that Elladan and Elrohir long remained, which means that they eventually departed. In the next line it states that Celeborn went to dwell with them in after the departure of Galadriel. Note that this departure means that she went to the west.
Of course they eventually departed. All mortals do so. What has Celeborn to do with it? Yes Celeborn departs into the West. Where does it say that Elladan and Elrohir went with him? In fact it speaks of Celeborn in the Singular!!! If it were that special they would have left with their father.

Let me get your theory right:
1. They had chosen to be mortal before they undertook the Paths of the Dead.
2. The choice would have taken effect after Elrond left ME.
3. After they have made their choice, although it's effects would start after they father left ME, they began changing psychologically.
Hmmmmmm. It just doesn't stand up. I have been searching the books of JRRT to see if they mention anything about the psychological effects you describe, and I have found none (I have searched). It's a pretty theory although it's only conjectures.

1. Correct.
2. The Physical effects.
3. The Psychological effects would be started by the decision alone and therefore would begin at once.

Show where it does not stand.

I have a better line of reasoning though.
In your view.

They had not taken their choice of fate before entering the "Paths of the Dead". They were still Pereldhil. Their fate was neither that of Men or Elves. Their fate was not to stay in Arda until the end of it's days nor to depart it when they died. They were in a state of "limbo" regarding their fates. They had fear of what the ghost of men that dwell in the Paths of the Dead, because their fate had not yet been defined.
Of course they were still Pereldhil. So was Elrond Half-Elven. That was a description of their lineage.

This is in accord with the books and does not create any "psychological" effects (he only mentions psychological difficulties when addressing the Rebirth of Elves) that don't exist in JRRT's LOTR and Silm literature.
I did not mention difficulties. Only effects as applies to the actual differences between Elves and Men.

The Elves observed that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men). They therefore deduced that this was 'natural' to Men (sc. was by the design of Eru), and supposed that the brevity of human life was due to this character of the human fea: that it was not designed to stay long in Arda. Whereas their own fea, being designed to remain in Arda to its end, imposed long endurance on their bodies; for they were (as a fact of experience) in far greater control of them. (Author's Note 5, p. 341) Beyond the 'End of Arda' Elvish thought could not penetrate, and they were without any specific instruction. (Author's Note 6, p. 341) It seemed clear to them that their hroar must then end, and therefore any kind of re-incarnation would be impossible. (Author's Note 7, p. 342) All the Elves would then 'die' at the End of Arda. What this would mean they did not know. They said therefore that Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them.
Their dilemma was this: the thought of existence as fea only was revolting to them, and they found it hard to believe that it was natural or designed for them, since they were essentially 'dwellers in Arda', and by nature wholly in love with Arda. The alternative: that their fear would also cease to exist at 'the End', seemed even more intolerable. Both absolute annihilation, and cessation of conscious identity, were wholly repugnant to thought and desire. (Author's Note 8, p. 343)
Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth: Commentary.
The above quotes show the difference between the Fea and the Psychology of Elves and Men.

[Maedhros]

Not quite. I stated that in my view JRR Tolkien viewed this letter as unsuitable as he made a Conscious decision Not to send it.
This was indeed written by JRRT and it doesn't contradict his views on that matter. Unsuitable for you perhaps, but not to him. In the contrary, he was dead serious about it.
'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'
Fortunately for us, it gives us an insight into what happened behind the world of Tolkien. You find it unsuitable, yet the person who was studied his works the most of everyone finds it important enough to publish it in a book with Mr. Carpenter. After all, wasn't it JRRT own words in the matter.
It shows nothing of the sort. It shows that their love for their mother is less than you have made it out to be. Where does it show that they had no human love interest? They may well, as did their uncle, have had great love for the Race of Man and of Aragorn in particular (they knew him and had rode with him even before he met Arwen). This would be enough for them to decide to become mortal.
Please show me the human love interest of the twins then. No, their love for their mother is exactly as great as it was meant to be. After the defeat of Sauron, there remained still enemies in ME. The Human Kingdom was being restored, but it would still take time. Yes, they had great love for the Race of Men, and that is why they stayed, as long as they could to help restore the Kingdom. The guiding that Imladris provided, still in the beginning of the Restauration was important. Then, and only then, when the kingdom was restored and their guidance and help was not needed anymore, they could return with the last remant of the High Elves in ME to their Home in the West, with their mother.
It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
Celeborn dwelt with the twins. When it is said that "with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in M-E" means that he didn't leave alone, but with the company of those high elves who dwelt in Imladris. The interesting thing is that both Elladan and Elrohir dwelt there too.
Show where it does not stand.
Very simple, in all the quotes you have provided from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth: Commentary, or any else for that matter, do you know how many times the term "Psychological effects" or "psychological" appears. It doesn't appears, not even one time. What you speak of is only conjectures and it brings a new element that is foreign in the works of JRRT.
Of course they were still Pereldhil. So was Elrond Half-Elven. That was a description of their lineage.
Yes, but it was more than that. They had a choice to make. They had to chose their fates. They had a war to fight. It was a difficult choice, and without any human love interest, they could afford to wait, which is exactly what they did (Unlike their sister Arwen), until the very last moment. Deciding one's fate is something not to be taken lightly. In the words of the author himself:
The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

[Gothmog]

This was indeed written by JRRT and it doesn't contradict his views on that matter. Unsuitable for you perhaps, but not to him. In the contrary, he was dead serious about it.
And obviously unsuitable for JRRT. He chose NOT to send it. Had he considered it suitable why was it not sent.

Fortunately for us, it gives us an insight into what happened behind the world of Tolkien. You find it unsuitable, yet the person who was studied his works the most of everyone finds it important enough to publish it in a book with Mr. Carpenter. After all, wasn't it JRRT own words in the matter.
This does not in any way change the Fact that JRR Tolkien chose to NOT send this letter to the person he was writing it for. He felt it was unsuitable.

Please show me the human love interest of the twins then. No, their love for their mother is exactly as great as it was meant to be. After the defeat of Sauron, there remained still enemies in ME. The Human Kingdom was being restored, but it would still take time. Yes, they had great love for the Race of Men, and that is why they stayed, as long as they could to help restore the Kingdom. The guiding that Imladris provided, still in the beginning of the Restauration was important. Then, and only then, when the kingdom was restored and their guidance and help was not needed anymore, they could return with the last remant of the High Elves in ME to their Home in the West, with their mother.
Their Love for their mother is exactly as great as it was meant to be but far less than you have made it out to be. It would seem that their lust for vengeance was greater!
The Guiding provided by Imladris was so important that the one best suited to such a position over-looked the fact. What evidence have you that they did any guiding of such importance?

Celeborn dwelt with the twins. When it is said that "with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in M-E" means that he didn't leave alone, but with the company of those high elves who dwelt in Imladris. The interesting thing is that both Elladan and Elrohir dwelt there too.
It means nothing of the sort. What is says is that He was the Last of the Elves to leave. He was the Last Living Memory. Therefore when Celeborn left His memory of the Elder Days by necessity went with him. What is interesting about Elladan and Elrohir dwelling in the former home of their father? They had to dwell somewhere. And where better for vengeance on the orcs of the Misty Mountains than the valley of Imladris?

Very simple, in all the quotes you have provided from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth: Commentary, or any else for that matter, do you know how many times the term "Psychological effects" or "psychological" appears. It doesn't appears, not even one time. What you speak of is only conjectures and it brings a new element that is foreign in the works of JRRT.
Does it matter how many times they appear. Psychological has to do with how a person or a people look at the world. Read once more the quotes given. You will see that they speak of how Elves and Men Look at the World. It is not necessary that Tolkien should use the actual Word Psychology, Psychological or effects. Only that the definitions be there. If you read through again you will see that what is covered by my use of one or two words is there in far more words defining the same thing.

they could afford to wait, which is exactly what they did (Unlike their sister Arwen), until the very last moment. Deciding one's fate is something not to be taken lightly.
Yes they could afford to wait and it is not to be taken lightly. However, this does not mean that they waited until after the war to decide. They would make the decision when they felt it was right. Being given a long time to make up your mind does not mean that you have to take all of that time. Only that you can. I do not think they needed to wait, they had made up their minds earlier and so the decision was taken before they followed the ‘Paths of the Dead’.

[Maedhros]

We have the Topic:
Do you think Elladan and Elrohir had already chosen their fate before entering The Paths of the Dead?
My position is that no, they didn't.
Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour. The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
Elladan and Elrohir were in that company, and it only mentioned that Legolas of the elves was not afraid. In the company there were men, a dwarf, and elf and two Peredhil.
Both the Elf and the men had their fate chosen. The fate of the elves was to endure Arda until it's end, while that of men was that after they died (their hröa), they would abandon Arda, and would not be bound by it.
The Peredhil had to make a choice wether to be either Elves or Men. They were faithless (not chosen) at that time. Therefore, they were "afraid" of the ghosts of Men in there. They were in a state of "fate limbo" if you will.
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
They had to make the choice when his father departed. Arwen, their sister, because of her love of Aragorn, chose to be counted among the Mortals, yet even she didn't make her decision after the War of the Ring. Why, because if Aragorn would have been killed, she couldn't have gone to Valinor with her father, there was nothing for her to remain if Aragorn didn't survive.
The twins, Elladan and Elrohir, didn't have any human love interest. They too had to wait for the outcome of the war. Why, because if the Men lost to Sauron, they wouldn't have no reason to stay in ME. They had to wait for the outcome before making a decision. Also, because they were in constant missions and forever engaged in the war. Their priorities lied elsewhere.
Look at this statement:
There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.
Long remained indeed means that they eventually departed. Couple this with:
The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
And we have the same thing. In this quote it says that they remained, meaning again that they eventually departed. The author never specified what departure means, because he himself states that they delay their choice and they remain for a while.
Why did Elladan and Elrohir waited after the War to make their choice?
Because they needed to be certain of the outcome of the War. If Sauron defeated the "West", then there was no reason that they would want to remain in ME, if the "West" won the day, staying in ME would have been too a posibility. Consider this, their mother was in Valinor, and they, unlike their sister, had no known human love interest in ME. They were fighting a war and needed to know the outcome of the war to see if remaining in ME was a choice too. They wouldn't make a choice without full knowledge of their options.

P.S. I would like to dedicate this debate in honor of the memory of Narya. May she rest in peace. I think that in this Gothmog will agree too.

[Gothmog]

Final Final Post.

The Topic.
Do you think Elladan and Elrohir had already chosen their fate before entering The Paths of the Dead?
A difficult question to answer but my view is that they had.

Signs and figures were carved above its wide arch too dim to read, and fear flowed from it like a grey vapour. The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror. This shows that of all the grey company only Legolas was considered to be ‘of the Elves’ I believe that this is because both Elladan and Elrohir had chosen to be numbered amongst Men. The way of looking at the world is much different between Men and Elves and it is for this reason that I say they feared the shades of men because they were looking at the world in the manner of Men.

It is true that they had no need to make their decision until the time came for Elrond to leave. However, just because they had that much time does not mean that they had to take all of that time. Indeed, Arwen made her decision more than 60 years before the War of the Ring when she vowed on Cerin Amroth in Lothlorien to cleave to Aragorn. It was only for the Marriage that she had to wait for the end of the war. When the time is right then the decision is made no matter how much time is left. This happened with Arwen and I believe with her brothers and for much the same reason. Love of Men and Aragorn in particular. Elladan and Elrohir both knew Aragorn when he was growing up and had fought with him many times. Out of this I feel grew a great love. Upon this hung their decision. They had no need to await the outcome of the war as they already wanted to share the fate of Men.
It has been said about their mother being in the undying lands yet they did not leave with their father but remained in ME. This seems more consistent with a decision to be accounted Men. As for their departing, all Men departed Arda so of course they would depart after a time. Them waiting for the end of the war to know what the outcome was first seems to me to be more suited to a decision to be joined to the Elves rather than Men as the fate of Elves after the war was less of a certainty than that of Men. Since I think that their hearts were with the kindred of Men there was their fate regardless of to what end the war came.

I join with Maedhros in wishing to dedicate this debate in honor of the memory of Narya.
May she find peace in the Timeless Halls.

[Ancalagon]

I would like to thank both Gothmog and Maedhros first and foremost for dedicating this debate and the work that they put in, to Narya.

Also, congratulations to both members for putting forth intensely stimulating arguements to a extremely difficult and testing question. I will now close this debate and move to seek verdicts from suitable judges within the forum.

Well done to both participants;)