Discrepancies or not in the Shibboleth of Fëanor

[Maedhros]

I was reading this most interesting discussion about the "High Kings"
of the Noldor, and the subject of canonicity of the Shibboleth of
Fëanor came up.
There appear to be certain "contradictions" in the Shibboleth that go
against those in the Silmarillion and in Morgoth's Ring.
This are examples of this:
The death of Míriel Þerinde - death of an 'immortal' Elda in the
deathless land of Aman - was a matter of grave anxiety to the Valar,
the first presage of the Shadow that was to fall on Valinor. The matter
of Finwë and Míriel and the judgement that the Valar after long debate
finally delivered upon it is elsewhere told. Only those points that
may explain the conduct of Fëanor are here recalled. Míriel's death was
of free will: she forsook her body and her fëa went to the Halls of
Waiting, while her body lay as if asleep in a garden. She said that she
was weary in body and spirit and desired peace. The cause of her
weariness she believed to be the bearing of Fëanor, great in mind and
body beyond the measure of the Eldar. Her weariness she had endured
until he was full grown, but she could endure it no longer.
Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the
Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be
the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so
enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his
treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.

The first one seems in direct contradiction with both the Silmarillion
and the Later Quenta Silmarillion in Morgoth's Ring.
The second, uses the new word "chieftain" which i believe is absent in
the Silmarillion and the Later Quenta. What I find contradictory is that why would Fingolfin said that Fëanor would lead and he would follow him, and then pursued the kingship of the Noldor.

I wonder, is the Shibboleth can be regarded as the author's last view on this or it's something entirely different. Or was it entirely a historical phonology essay?

[gate7ole]

It's very interesting that such contradicting passages can be found, but it is undistutable that Tolkien's mythology passed through many states until it reached a stable condition.
I've one question, though.
Where did you read this Shibboleth?
Is it in a later book of the HOME series? (I've only read the 3 first)

[Maedhros]

The Shibboleth of Fëanor is found in Peoples of ME, Home 12.

[Tar-Elenion]

The Miriel story is a change.
Chieftain is used in the Silmarillion (see first paragraph of chapter 14).
There is no contradiction in what Fingolfin said.
I have debated this elsewhere and here was my reply:
I see no serious problems. Fingolfin said 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' before Finwe was dead, and before Feanor claimed the kingship. In context Fingolfin's statement has nothing to do with Feanor's 'kingship' (or lack thereof). Neither of them knew that Finwe would die (or expected him to). One of the reasons that there was such dissention over the inheritance of the Kingship is that the Kingship of the Noldor had not passed before (excepting that when Finwe held himself 'unkinged' Fingolfin took up the rule, not necesarily kingship, of the Noldor), and there seemingly were no clear rules of inheritance. While I think Feanor certainly had 'better claim' to the Kingship that was Finwe's, being the eldest of the House, it was his own actions that impaired his rights and position. It is simply fact that Feanor's claims were not accepted by the most part of the Noldor. During Feanor's banishment and Finwe's self imposed exile the actual rule of the Noldor (if not the titular Kingship) had already passed. Feanor's own presumptive actions after the death of Finwe (as well as those before) cost him his chance to actually become King, and Fingolfin's position could not be supplanted (though of course he did not become King in name until after the death of Feanor).

This is what is said regarding the 'you will lead'
It is noted in HoME 10, LQ1, ~73: "'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 287, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'"

Here Fingolfin follows Feanor into Exile because of his promise and because he will not desert his people (who do not renounce his rule). Again the context is clear from authorial notes in the corpus. Fingolfin keeps his 'word' ('they were reconciled in word') by following Feanor into Exile. But note that even at this point Feanor is not recognized as King. The just prior sentences note that the most part of the Noldor refuse to accept Feanor as king and do not renounce the rule of Fingolfin. What is important note here is that Fingolfin accepts this while still keeping his word and following the lead of Feanor.

This is in fact commented on in the Shibboleth: "(after Morgoth contrived the death of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin... and in the end in spite of the enimty between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor."

Compare with the MR passages:
"By no means were all of a mind to take Feanor as king... and the most part of the Dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him [Fingolfin], if he would go with them", Annals of Aman.
and:
"The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people", LQ.

In both MR and the Shibboleth the greater part of the Noldor, accept the rule of Fingolfin and do not accept Feanor's claims. Note that the Shibboleth has that Fingolfin joined with 'full will' though MR has him yeilding against his wisdom. However this is not a contradiction. 'In the end' he joins with 'full will'. That is though first speaking against Feanor (and note even here so much for 'you will lead', and showing the enimity spoken of in Shibboleth) only when it becomes clear what his people want does he goes along with it. Also note that the Shibboleth has Fingolfin claiming the Kingship. It is true that The Silmarillion does not speak of this claim. But it does not deny it. And note that though Fingolfin spoke against Feanor, he went with the Noldor who would not renounce him 'if he would go with them'. This seems to me that by accepting the decision of the people (he does not renounce them, he does not say 'Feanor is king', he goes with them and they 'the greater host come behind under Fingolfin'.

'Thou shalt lead and I will follow', when examined in full context it is shown that Fingolfin was not swearing loyalty to Feanor (or perhaps rather promising to accept the kingship of Feanor). If he was swearing loyalty (or rather to accept Feanor as King, though there was no plausable reason for this) he was not very good at keeping his word. In any event JRRT seemed to imply that by simply following Feanor into Exile ('also because of the promise made'), Fingolfin was keeping his word.
Feanor and Fingolfin were reconciled in _word_, not in deed.

[Maedhros]

You're commentaries are enlightening. Yet I wonder about other things. I think that Fingolfin was never "thrilled" by the idea that Fëanor would become King of the Noldor.
From Morgoth's Ring
§52d Then there was great unrest in Túna, and Finwë was troubled, and he summoned all his lords to council. But Fingolfin hastened to his halls and stood before him, saying: 'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwë, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly? By what right does he speak for all our people, as were he king? Thou it was who long ago spoke before the Quendi, bidding them accept the guesting of the Mighty in Aman. Thou it was that led the Noldor upon the long road through the perilous Earth to the light of Eldanor. If this does not now repent thee, two sons at least thou hast to honour thy words!'
Was there such thing like a united King of the Noldor?
But Indis parted from me without death. I had not seen her for many years, and when the Marrer smote me I was alone. She hath dear children to comfort her, and her love, I deem, is now most for Ingoldo.16 His father she may miss; but not the father of Fëanáro! But above all her heart now yearns for the halls of Ingwë and the peace of the Vanyar, far from the strife of the Noldor. Little comfort should I bring her, if I returned; and the lordship of the Noldor hath passed to my sons.
Does this means that there was no King of the Noldor per se? Or that somehow Finwë was aware of all that was happening after his death.
Morgoth's Ring
But now the lords of the Noldor took out their swords and spears and sharpened them, re-strung their bows and filled their quivers with arrows. And they made shields in those days and emblazoned them with devices of silver and gold and gems. These only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning.
Doesn't this contradict the statement in the published Silmarillion
Published Silmarillion
And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak, for each believed that he alone had received the warning.
Does this means that they were not creating the "tokens" of their houses, and that their division had not yet reached an unbreakable point.
'Thou shalt lead and I will follow', when examined in full context it is shown that Fingolfin was not swearing loyalty to Feanor (or perhaps rather promising to accept the kingship of Feanor). If he was swearing loyalty (or rather to accept Feanor as King, though there was no plausable reason for this) he was not very good at keeping his word. In any event JRRT seemed to imply that by simply following Feanor into Exile ('also because of the promise made'), Fingolfin was keeping his word.
I find it strange that if you tell someone that you will lead and I will follow, then how could you follow someone if you're the King. Isn't it the other way around?
I think that it changes a little the outcome, because in the Shibboleth, Fingolfin is claiming the Kingship, while in MR, Fingolfin accepted the Kingship of the Majority of the Noldor because they would not forsake his rule.
If the Shibboleth version is final then, Fëanor would have had another motive for abandoning Fingolfin, that he mistrusted his brother and his intentions because he was claiming also the Kingship. Granted is not that big of a change, but a change nonetheless.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Maedhros
You're commentaries are enlightening.
Thank you.

Yet I wonder about other things. I think that Fingolfin was never "thrilled" by the idea that Fëanor would become King of the Noldor.
From Morgoth's Ring
<snip quote from MR>


Why would Feanor become King of the Noldor? Elves are immortal, their was no reason to believe that Finwe would die. Fingolfin here seems to be concerned with the attempted 'usurpation' of authority by Feanor, not with whether or not Feanor would legitimately becom King.


Was there such thing like a united King of the Noldor?

Finwe as Noldoran (King of the Noldor).
The High Kings of the Noldor in Exile though (this seems somewhat nominal).


<snip quote from MR>
Does this means that there was no King of the Noldor per se? Or that somehow Finwë was aware of all that was happening after his death.

I would say there was no Noldoran after Finwe's death. The lordship had passed, Finarfin was set to rule the remenant of the Noldor in Aman while the Exiles were ruled be Fingolfin (et.al).


Morgoth's Ring
<snip quote>

Doesn't this contradict the statement in the published Silmarillion
Published Silmarillion
<snip quote>

I dont see any real contradiction in effect. I cant research it in depth right now, but IIRC the published Sil. passage is an earlier version from HoME 5. What is also important to remember is that CT edited and and prepared the Silmarillion for publishing from a variety of sources (including writing some of it himself).


I find it strange that if you tell someone that you will lead and I will follow, then how could you follow someone if you're the King. Isn't it the other way around?
Because the promise had nothing to do with Feanor being king or not. As I pointed out JRRT himself reconciled any apparent contradiction:
HoME 10, LQ1, ~73: "'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 287, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'"


I think that it changes a little the outcome, because in the Shibboleth, Fingolfin is claiming the Kingship, while in MR, Fingolfin accepted the Kingship of the Majority of the Noldor because they would not forsake his rule.
Fingolfin does not become King until after Feanor's death. Until that time there are two competing claims and two rival claimants to the crown.
Fingolfin only becomes King after his 'election' at the 'council of princes' in Hithlim.


If the Shibboleth version is final then, Fëanor would have had another motive for abandoning Fingolfin, that he mistrusted his brother and his intentions because he was claiming also the Kingship. Granted is not that big of a change, but a change nonetheless.

Clarify what you think this was a change from.

[Maedhros]

What does IIRC means?
If I recall correctly?
Because the promise had nothing to do with Feanor being king or not. As I pointed out JRRT himself reconciled any apparent contradiction:
HoME 10, LQ1, ~73: "'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 287, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Fëanor before Manwë 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'"
From MR:
What about the other part of his promise:
Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us!'
Why would Fingolfin said may no new grief divide us, and then seek also the "kingship" too? He's the one creating the division. It IMO, doesn't seems the way that an elf as honorable as Fingolfin would have acted. In MR, we see that Fingofin made no claim, the people were not willing to give him up as a ruler. There is a slight difference there, and he eventually becomes King after the death and betrayal of Fëanor.
The difference is that he kept his word until betrayed by his brother.
Clarify what you think this was a change from.
Ok.
I just simply think that it diminishes the stature of Fingolfin. He seemed to me the loyal and forgiving brother. With him claiming the kinship to himself, diminishes that fact. May no new grief divide us, and yet he is causing a new grief. Seems like he broke a part of his promise to me.
From the Shibboleth:
Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.
This makes Fëanor less of the devil that he seems to be in the LQ.

[Tar-Elenion]

Yes, IIRC means 'If I Recall Correctly'
Originally posted by Maedhros
What about the other part of his promise:
Saying 'may no new grief divide us' is not a promise. It is expressing a hope or desire.

Why would Fingolfin said may no new grief divide us, and then seek also the "kingship" too? He's the one creating the division. It IMO, doesn't seems the way that an elf as honorable as Fingolfin would have acted. In MR, we see that Fingofin made no claim, the people were not willing to give him up as a ruler. There is a slight difference there, and he eventually becomes King after the death and betrayal of Fëanor.
The difference is that he kept his word until betrayed by his brother.
[and]
I just simply think that it diminishes the stature of Fingolfin. He seemed to me the loyal and forgiving brother. With him claiming the kinship to himself, diminishes that fact. May no new grief divide us, and yet he is causing a new grief. Seems like he broke a part of his promise to me.

MR does not state that Fingolfin claimed the kingship, but this is different than it stating that he did not. The MR account is more condensed than the Shibboleth account. However the Shibboleth account also implies that the majority of the Noldor wanted Fingolfin as lord, by noting that they marched from Valinor under his command. However under the case you seem to be laying out Fingolfin did not keep his word to Feanor in the MR account. The promise under that case is "Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us!" But note what is said in MR after Feanor makes his speech to the Noldor on Tuna: "Fingolfin, and his son Turgon, therefore spoke against Feanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords." Fingolfin here is certainly not following Feanor's lead, and the grief dividing them nearly comes to deadly blows. We can also note that it seems unclear that Fingolfin intended to even go along until after he realized that the Noldor would not renounce his rule _if_ he would come along. Similarly in the Shibboleth it is 'only in the end' that Fingolfin 'joins with full will' in the rebellion.

[Maedhros]

The promise under that case is "Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us!" But note what is said in MR after Feanor makes his speech to the Noldor on Tuna: "Fingolfin, and his son Turgon, therefore spoke against Feanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords." Fingolfin here is certainly not following Feanor's lead, and the grief dividing them nearly comes to deadly blows.
Then why the promise in the first place? Isn't it hypocrisy.:confused:

Now going back to "other contradictions":
The Míriel account in the Shibboleth is different than that of the LQ.
From the Shibboleht:
Only those points that may explain the conduct of Fëanor are here recalled. Míriel's death was of free will: she forsook her body and her fea went to the Halls of Waiting, while her body lay as if asleep in a garden. She said that she was weary in body and spirit and desired peace. The cause of her weariness she believed to be the bearing of Fëanor, great in mind and body beyond the measure of the Eldar. Her weariness she had endured until he was full grown, but she could endure it no longer.
But in MR we have:
But when Míriel still languished, Finwë sought the counsel of Manwë, and Manwë delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lorien.3 At their parting (for a little while as he thought) Finwë was sad, for it seemed an unhappy chance that the mother should depart and miss the beginning at least of the childhood days of her son.
If the account from the Shibboleth has more "precedence" than that of the LQ in MR then:
But it was of no avail, and Finwë alone in all the Blessed Realm was bereaved of joy. After a while he went to Lorien no more, for it increased his grief to see the fair form of Míriel that would not hear his call. All his love he gave now to his son; for Fëanor in childhood was like his mother in voice and countenance, and Finwë was to him both father and mother and there was a double bond of love upon them.
Does this make the LQ, at least in this part, unreliable?

What about the parentage of Gil-galad?
The words that I cannot read contain apparently a preposition and a proper name, and this latter could be faroth (the High Faroth west of the river Narog). - In the last of the genealogical tables Artanaro (Rodnor) called Gil-galad appears, with the note that 'he escaped and dwelt at Sirion's Mouth'. The only further change was the rejection of the name Artaresto and its replacement by Artaher, Sindarin Arothir; and thus in the excursus (note 23) Arothir [Orodreth] is named as Finrod's 'kinsman and steward', and (note 47) Gil-galad is 'the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod'.
I suposse that the only contradiction was the fact that the Publish Sil was edited by CT.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Then why the promise in the first place? Isn't it hypocrisy.:confused:


Because there need to be some form of reconciliation. The 'may no new grief...' was a foreshadowing that events would divide them.
My point is that the accounts in Shibboleth and Annals of Aman are not incompatible in this (nor contradictory).


Now going back to "other contradictions":
The Míriel account in the Shibboleth is different than that of the LQ.
If the account from the Shibboleth has more "precedence" than that of the LQ in MR then:
Does this make the LQ, at least in this part, unreliable?
Yes, if you wish to veiw it that way. We dont know what final decision JRRT would have come too.



What about the parentage of Gil-galad?

I suposse that the only contradiction was the fact that the Publish Sil was edited by CT.

What about the parentage of Gil-galad? JRRT changed his mind on it numerous times. CT chose the version he thought fit best in the published Silmarillion at that time.

[lindil]

Anyone mind if I copy this over to the "Kings of the Noldor and Canon" thread?

It nicely summarizes the entire previous thread and adds a few bits of the change in the date of Miriel's death/departure.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by lindil
Anyone mind if I copy this over to the "Kings of the Noldor and Canon" thread?
I dont mind if you use what I wrote.
It nicely summarizes the entire previous thread and adds a few bits of the change in the date of Miriel's death/departure.
That is one of the actual contradictions that I had hinted at in the 'Kings' thread.

[lindil]

yes I had noticed the miriel death dates change when i read it.

Rather sad in one way as now we may loose the beautiful line " I would weep if I were not so weary".

[Maedhros]

I know that the Shibboleth is more recent than the Later Quenta but does it really takes precedence over it.
I personally think that it will change the outlook of Fëanor. I always thought that the fact that he was without his mother from the beggining is what affected him most, yet in the Shibboleth, he was with his mother until he was grown. Granted that in the overall story it's a small change, yet I still wonder about it.