Maedhros and Gothmog - Judges Panel

[Ancalagon]

Thanks to those judges who have accepted my invitation to offer a verdict on the recent debate between two of the forums hardest working debators. Each judge has been selected for their fairness and impartial attitude towards the Guilds and the forum.

Gamil-Zirak
Confusticated
Turgon
Parrot...

...and myself:D

I will also post a poll for all members to cast their vote, though this will not count in the final judgement. Any queries or concerns can be forwarded to me in a PM.

The debate itself can be read Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6332) and would strongly recommend that all judges and voting members read the debate thoroughly. Judges will be expected to put forth a case for their answer, whether for, against or drawn.

[Nóm]

First I would like to thank Maedhros and Gothmog for having this debate, and thanks to Ancalagon and anyone esle who was involved in this. I enjoyed the debate. I consider it an honor to judge this, as well as a challenge.

Maedhros's most solid evidence was that quote from the letter of J.R.R Tolkien. Gothmog came back at him about the validity of this letter,The debate about that which followed I say both Maedhros and Gothmog were even. Both did exellect jobs to argue thier side about that Letter.

Gothmog used a couple quotes from the Appendix in the arguement thats show that the sons must either go with Elrond or become mortal , The evidence against these quotes was that letter quote presented by Maedhros but it's validity remained in question . So, Gothmog came outslgihtly ahead in this aspect of the debate.

Both agree'd the brothers were affraid of the ghosts of the men. Maedhros' reason being that they were half elf, Gothmog's that they had already chosen. Arguements ensued from each of their points. Maedhros was unable to convince me of any difference between elf, man, and half-elf that would prove his arguement here. Gothmog also was unable to offer direct proof, but he gave more explaination (evidence) for his case about the psychological changes taking place before the physical. In these two arguements I think that Gothmog's was slightly better than Maedhros's.

Maedhros brings up the quote about the sons eventual "departing". He claims that this means that they eventually departed from Middle-earth, Gothmog killed this when he pointed out that that could have ment departure by death.

Gothmog pointing out that the sons' choice could have been like Elros' choice, a love not of a woman but of the human race (especially Aragorn), shattered Maedhros's point that the sons' lack of human love interest ment that the Son's had no reason to stay in Middle-earth.

For the love of their mother it makes more sense to me that the Sons would want to go see her ASAP rather than continue killng orcs for a couple hundered (or however many years Maedhros thinks it was) years. However, in this debate I think Maedhros and Gothmog were equal in their arguements about this aspect - love of their mother.

Maedhros gave the arguement that the sons would want to wait for the end of the war before deciding does sound like a good arguement, so too does Gothmog's reasoning that they had already wanted to share the fate of men. In this aspect I think Gothmog and Maedhros were even.

I think both Maedhros and Gothmog did exellent jobs, but in this debate Gothmog gets my vote.

(I am editting this post becaue I noticed I left out a few words which makes my meaning unclear. The additional words are in Blue.

[pohuist]

I voted for draw (I am not a judge) for the following reason: Maedros was superior in the debate (IMO), but Gothmog's position was harder. Maedros had only to argue that they did not make a decision yet, while Gothmog had to argue that they did maka a decision AND they chose to become mortal. The latter is very hard to argue as once King Aragorn and Arwen passed away and the last Orcs are hunted down there is nothing really that would keep the brothers in ME instead of joining their parents.

[gate7ole]

I rewrite what I said to our guild (of Tolkienologists):

I just read the debate between Maedhros and Gothmog.
I suggest everyone read it. It's very insightful.
Also, I believe the Maedhros was superior. The debate was difficult and not many quotes can be found on the subject, so the arguments are vague and mostly assumptions. Thus, the winner should use his arts in debating as well as his knowledge. There was a balance throughout the debate, but some statements of Maedhros (like the letter) were undisputable. Also, there discrimination between Peredhil and elves (so as to explain the quote that "Legolas was the only elf) was a wise move, that I admit would never cross my mind. Finally, Gothmog, finding no reason whatsoever why the sons of Elrond would want to stay in ME, lost the critical points.
So, my vote goes to Maedhros.

[Grond]

The debate was well argued but Gothmog failed to provide me with a reason as to "why" the brothers chose to be mortal before the Paths of the Dead. I personally am unsure whether they chose to go across the sea or if they stayed on Middle-earth and became mortal. I would probably go with the latter. The Sons of Elrond showed no interest in The West and seemed consumed with getting retribution for the abduction and torture of their mother. I would argue that this in and of itself was strong enough for them to cleave to mortality and forsake the Blessed Realm.

Elladan and Elrohir had become obsessed with battle and might of arms. These two things are completely at odds with their Elvish nature and made them more comparable to Boromir or Eowyn in their motivations. I believe that at the end, they became mortal and I believe that on the Paths of the Dead, they feared the shades of Man because they held in their hearts the more human emotions. Unfortunately for Gothmog, he failed to argue these points and thus, loses my vote.

Vote for Maedhros.

[Brent]

Sorry but personally I find the question was inept.
Since the brothers were half-elves they are neither elves or men. You miss the point if you focus on the choice they take, it's immaterial to what they ARE.
They are either half elves who choose the life of the first born and amongst the first born they are acounted (I'm sure there's a paraphrase there) or they are half elves who choose the life of the second born and amongst the second born they are acounted. Elrond and Elros.
You can count them where you like, they're still half elves. Elrond is refered to as Elrond half-elven even though he's lived for many an age amongst the first born. I submit that Elrond would have felt the fear of the Ghosts of men (feeling fear is not the same as being effected by it) for this reason.

Therefore the judgement must go to Maedhros.
The rest is immaterial. The letters are irrelevant, the passage alone provides the evidence - Legolas was the ONLY elf present. The brothers are no more Elves than Tuor or myself. They are half-Elves, they don't decide to be acounted amongst the first born and then BECOME elven otherwise the choice would be to BECOME Elven or to BECOME men - thats not the choice, the choice is to be acounted amongst a people.
Or put another way I choose to go live in France and become a French citizen with ALL the rights of a French citizen. Doesn't change the FACT that I AM English, nor will it ever.
A good analogy is good old Spock playing with the computer in the Star Trek Movie, having a good old run until it says "How do you feel ?" and he can't answer. Because ? your part human, the machine is programmed for this.
So for me, Elrond or his wife probably has the same problem with his children - they get passionate about something the other Elves do not, they don't feel like they fit in -
"Why father ?" "Because your part man ("human"). The qualities King Finrod admired in men, the distinctly "unelven" burning of the fire imperishable, the searching that leads beyond the world, burn in you to a greater or lessor extent."

[Parrot]

To open, Congrats to both Gothmog and Maedhros for a worthy and interesting debate, well played on both sides.

I would like to preface my judgment with the fact that I feel the more difficult position fell to Gothmog, as he was forced to try and prove conclusively that the decision was made before the Paths of the Dead with little more than the fear to go on (hope there is not too much fore-shadowing here).

Maedhros’ opening volley of Tolkien’s quote from the letter seemed quite explicit; that they “delay their choice” would seem very damning to Gothmog’s position. The fact that the letter was never sent did not affect its validity in my mind. Coming from his hand and never being subsequently retracted or changed, the account carries the weight of Tolkien, sent or unsent, IMO. However I had a problem with the letter:
Quote by Gothmog from Appendix A: THE NÚMENOREAN KINGS
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
Quote by Maedhros from Tolkien letter:
Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.
The passage from the letter, when taken in context, can be easily interpreted as if E & E delayed their choice even until after Elrond has departed, but according to the Appendix passage, their choice would seemingly have been made by default when they did not go with Elrond at that time; an apparent contradiction between letter and text, which IMO, could invalidate the letter. I would like to have seen Goth hit this point, but it still would not solidify his position of the choice being made before the paths of the dead. No blood on this point.

Next, the foundation of Gothmog’s position, that since they showed fear of mortality they were obviously mortal and not Elven, was ably countered by Maedhros argument that they were neither man nor elf but “half-elven” and therefore also, by default, half-mortal. Being half-mortal, they might well fear even the “possibility” that they could come to this end. Though they might try to rationalize it away with “it’s our choice”, fear is an emotion not subject to the constraints of reason and the mere possibility, not necessarily certainty, could be enough to instill fear, IMO. Point to Maedhros.

One thing that might have influenced me on this debate would have been if Gothmog had been able to present a more compelling reason for them wanting to choose mortality. It seems as though this choice would be fairly extraordinary and requiring a very strong reason, whether it be love like Arwen’s, or something altogether different. I was not convinced that the desire to pursue orcs to the end of their days to avenge their mother would override their desire to be reunited with her, eventually. I needed more. I remain uncertain to what their final choice even was, and even less so the timing, so, I must vote for Maedhros.

[Ancalagon]

If it is so inept, how can you support the case of one participant over another? Surely you would be incapable of contriving an answer to the question, period. Also Brent, my learned friend, on a personal note, it seems rather derogatory to the individuals who were able to put forth arguements with such a derisory opening statement.

The question was; Do you think Elladan and Elrohir had already chosen their fate before entering The Paths of the Dead?

This is deliberate as it calls into question their intentions, both in whether they would follow their father, or remain with their sister and Aragorn. What I was asking was whether they has consciously made a choice long before they entered the paths of the Dead. In my opinion they had. However, my opinion has little to do with the ability of both members to forward there thoughts on an extremely difficult question. There is no final answer to this question, only the ability of the participants to persuade the viewer of there perspective. There is little to no evidence to back up the position of either, which on my part was why I preferred this angle to the age old question.

What I was seeking from the participants was a more emotional account of the brothers choice, not based on evidence, because there is no evidence, but based on choices of the heart, the emotional attachment to either choice they had to make.

Being afraid of the ghosts of the dead is simply a red-herring in this debate. The fact remains, the brothers would have this choice on their minds ever since they knew they would eventually have to make it. At what point did they make their decision then?

Maedhros lacked conviction in debating the emotional link to their Mother, which in my opinion could have given more credence to their decision, espcially from the moment their Mother departed from ME. Surely the desire to be with their Mother would overshadow any thoughts of revenge for her treatment at the hands of the Orcs.

Remember, the question is whether they had made a choice before the Paths? The reasons behind Arwen’s choice have no bearing upon the debate as it not for us to try to show WHY Elladan and Elrohir made their choice only WHEN. Gothmog pointed out in his reasoning that 'why' was not part of the question, but when. Yet, 'why' is essential to knowing 'when' they made the choice in my opinion.

Both participants tended to become embroiled in semantics and fine detail and lost sight of the timing of a decision. At what point does the penny drop for the brothers and they knew in their hearts what choice they would make? How do we know when they have made their choice and to whom must they acknowledge their decision? Elrond and Elros chose early in their lives the paths of immortal and mortal respectively.
The focus I also sought was the emotional and historical link between the sons and the heir of Isildur himself. In addition, the effect upon the relationship with Arwen and their affinity with their Sister, whom had made a choice out of love, yet she was still their Sister and if any of you have a sister, you will know the strength of a bond between you. The Sil states clearly the link between the Dunedain and The House of Elrond; In that house were harboured the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age, because of the kinship of their blood with Elrond himself, and because he knew in his wisdom that one should come of their line to whom a great part was appointed in the last deeds of that Age. And until that time came the shards of Elendil's sword were given into the keeping of Elrond, when the days of the Dúnedain darkened and they became a wandering people. The link to the line of Elros is inextricable, the association between the brothers and the Dunedain, closer than Elves. The time spent with Men in the endless pursuit of Orcs and the continual battle against Saurons forces is key to unlocking the brothers choice. Their riding to the call of Aragorn with the Dunedain and joining the fight against Sauron at the end. The decision of Arwen to relinquish her immortality in favour of the mortality of men. This could be enough to convince one of the choices of the brothers, long before entering the paths. The very fact Elrond, Elros and Arwen both chose their own fates long before either departed, proves that a choice can be made by the half-Elven at any time, and not only at the last moment.
However, the fact remains that neither participant convinced me of the choice of the brothers, before entering the paths. The strength of the arguements were excellent by both, but not exceptional enough to convince me either way. The fact is for any judge, you must be convinced of the arguement, if you are unconvinced by either and you cannot say with certainty that the brothers had made a choice, then you cannot vote for more than a draw.

[Turgon]

I vote for a draw. A tough question argued ably by both participents, not much in the texts to go on but an interesting debate all around. I'll go over the main points of the arguement and try and give some reasons for my decision.

Firstly I think Maedhros hit a telling point with the assertion that the Sons of Elrond were neither elves or men but rather Peredhil, Half-elves, as was their father - regardless of his choice to be counted amongst the Eldar. Yet any theory put forward as to the difference between Elves, Men and Peredhil, can only be forwarded as speculation and neither of our worthy debaters managed to convince me one way or the other.

Again I think Maedhros' quote from letter 153 was valid, Tolkien's note 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.' I think can be put down entirely to the fact that the letter was written in 1954, not long after LoTR was published - alas the humble professor knew not how important these little details were to become...

Yet Maedhros quotes from the texts and the letter were not enough to prove one way or the other what the fate of the Sons of Elrond were and his theory on their departure with Celeborn didn't ring true.

'We have that Elladan and Elrohir long remained, which means that they eventually departed.'

Departed where? To the Undying Lands or beyond the Circles of the World?

The question remained: When did they make their choice? Gothmog was correct in arguing that they could well have made their choice long before taking the Paths of the Dead... sure they choose to delay the actual choice given to the Half-elven... yet that doesn't mean they didn't make the decision to do so long before.

Personally I have always believed that Elladan and Elrohir did indeed choose a mortal life, so Maedhros had the harder task of convincing me otherwise, yet his arguement that they feared the Paths of the Dead because they were neither Elf nor Man struck right to the heart of the question:

'If Elladan and Elrohir were among those who feared the spirits of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, does that mean they chose mortality and remained in Middle-Earth?'

The answer in my opinon is no... simply because there is not enough evidence to support such a statement... not in the text, and not in any of the arguements put forward by our worthy debaters.

A draw then...

[Brent]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
If it is so inept, how can you support the case of one participant over another? Surely you would be incapable of contriving an answer to the question, period. Also Brent, my learned friend, on a personal note, it seems rather derogatory to the individuals who were able to put forth arguements with such a derisory opening statement.

The question was; Do you think Elladan and Elrohir had already chosen their fate before entering The Paths of the Dead?

The fact is for any judge, you must be convinced of the arguement, if you are unconvinced by either and you cannot say with certainty that the brothers had made a choice, then you cannot vote for more than a draw.

Oh dear did you write the question ? I'm sorry if i upset you.
Since my comment was directed at the question and not the answer, either of those given by the guys, we must disagree on that one.
And as you raise matters of address you will note I did not submit, I expressed my opinion.

I stand by my opinion. Since the brothers remain and postponed their choice for a while, then they have not made a choice.

[Ancalagon]

Oh dear did you write the question ? I'm sorry if i upset you.

Don't concern yourself with my feelings, my ineptitude cushions my sensitivity;)

[Brent]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Don't concern yourself with my feelings, my ineptitude cushions my sensitivity;)

Hardly so, any question is better than no question and I fear, left to my devices there would be no question. Your efforts within this forum and comitment to its members are a matter beyond debate !!!!

[Maedhros]

There is one judge still missing. Perhaps, Anc. you could give us a timetable for a decision on this debate.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

I was kindly invited to join the “jury” on the final decision for this debate.

To be TOTALLY OBJECTIVE , I :
FIRST: took the trouble to read all the information I could find about Elrond’s son. For this I used Tolkien (father & son) writings, some other sources, as the Encyclopedia of Arda, some discussions held in other forums referring to Elrond’s boys etc. A lot of the information found I witnessed in the posts.
SECOND: I read VERY CAREFULLY again the debate and here is my opinion:

1. The question was whether Elrond’s sons had made their decision BEFORE the Paths of the Dead. Therefore, all the evidences provided, concerning their deeds AFTER the Paths of the Dead I found not too important for the topic of the debate. I am not saying, however that I did not take them into consideration!

2. I noticed that very soon you both started to debate over whether they decided “to be or not to be” mortal, which was NOT the topic of the debate. You had to prove whether they had made their decision WHATEVER IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BEFORE the Paths of the dead.
Still, I have to admit that Maedhros defended his position on this issue better.
“A Peredhel had the youth of the Eldar, and was not an eldar himself. The author is correct in asserting that Legolas was the only elf, because he was. Because they were not Elves, but Peredhel, they were "affected" by the ghosts of men.”
ONE POINT FOR MAEDHROS here.

3.: The “in-debate” discussion about the reason Elrond’s sons had to make their final choice – “love” and “commitment” was a very good argument and I admit that it was better defended by Maedhros.
“Arwen chose to be mortal because of the love that she had for Aragorn. Elladan and Elrohir had no such commitment. They loved her mother Celebrían. She went to the havens:”

“This is an important reason for them to wait for their decision until the last possible moment, and therefore not in the midst of the Third Age. They loved their mother too much.”
SECOND POINT FOR MAEDHROS here.

4.: The other “in-debate” discussion – Tolkien Letter – sent or unsent – I find not too much related to the topic of the debate, therefore – not of much importance.

5. Gothmog:
If they loved their mother to such an extent why then did they not travel to the West with their father? So they went about taking revenge upon the orcs for what they did. This does not show that they had not made their decision earlier.
Maedhros, I admit, responded to this with very good and strong and logic arguments, though he missed some very convenient points that would have been additionally in his favour (see below in my comments)
This shows that they had a legitimate reason to delay their choice, to remain for a while longer in ME to help the new King order things and to hunt orcs so that they could depart at a later and safer time to see their mother. Remember, they, unlike their sister, had no human love interest, so they had nothing to remain in ME for.
+ other excellent comments further on. So, it’s
THIRD POINT FOR MAEDHROS here.

6.: Gothmog, from the point of view of the position he had to defend, spoke very wisely about the psychological change that had been going on with Elladan and Elrohir and this = a result from their already taken decision to be mortal, which in its turn >>> they were afraid of the ghosts.
To this Maedhros could not give very good and wise-like argument. So,
ONE POINT FOR GOTHMOG here.

7. Maedhros commented on E&E leaving ME to the West together with Celeborn, which was a bit “shaky” argument, so Gothmog gave a very good “counter-comment” against. Maedhros could not convince me that E&E departed together with Celeborn. So,
SECOND POINT FOR GOTHMOG here.

FINAL SCORE: THREE – TO - TWO FOR MAEDHROS.

Congratulations!
Gothmog, please, forgive me! I have tried to be as objective as I could and you see I have provided comments on my decisions.
But you were an EXCELLENT opponent! :)

WEEK POINTS UNATTENDED BY BOTH THE DEBATORS:
1. Maedhros:
If Elladan and Elrohir had not chosen their fates, why were they afraid of the ghosts of men. If they had chosen to remain mortal, they would have feared them, but that is not the case because the author has stated that they postponed their decision
Gothmog:
Elladan and Elrohir had made their choice before entering ‘The Paths of the Dead’ else they would not have feared the spirits of Men. As Sons of Elrond they no-doubt knew much of the abilities of these spirits but as immortal Elves they would have had little fear of them. To account for this quote and it pointing to only Legolas as being ‘Of the Elves’ it seems to me that the sons had indeed chosen to be mortal
Compare with:
LOTR, “Paths of the Death”:
“Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dúnedain and their horses followed him.”
Aragorn WAS mortal but he did NOT fear!
Therefore, the arguments of BOTH – non-valid.

2.The quote from Letter 153:
“The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.”
It PRACTICALLY tells that Elrond’s sons did NOT make up their minds BEFORE the Paths of the Dead, but apparently AFTER, whatever this decision might be, for we don’t know and we can only assume.

3. Maedhros provided quotes in his desire to prove that Elrond’s sons were HALF-ELVES:
From LOTR: Appendix A:
“At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong.”
But Maedhros, when they chose a race they ACTUALLY become one of this race! Don’t you think?

Some enthusiasts have taken the trouble to calculate that:
The children of Elrond:
25/32 Eldar
6/32 Edain
1/32 Maia
Besides, Encyclopedia of Arda gives these Data about the sons:
ELLADAN
Born III 130; 2,889 years old at the time of the Downfall of Barad-dûr Race: Elves
Division: Descended from the Noldor, Sindar and Edain
Culture: Rivendell
Pronunciation: e'lladan
Meaning: Elf-man1

ELROHIR
Born III 130; 2,889 years old at the time of the Downfall of Barad-dûr
Race: Elves
Division: Descended from the Noldor, Sindar and Edain
Culture: Rivendell
Pronunciation: e'lroheer
Meaning: Elf-knight1

All these facts, IN FACT back up YOUR theory that they finally chose to be Elves and departed to the West.. You just missed it! ;)

4. Gothmog:
“If they loved their mother to such an extent why then did they not travel to the West with their father? So they went about taking revenge upon the orcs for what they did. This does not show that they had not made their decision earlier.”
But Gothmog (and Maedhros!- you missed a good argument ;)) did not remember here the story of Aegnor (from A FaA, which on other occasions you quoted) where Finrod very clearly explains WHY an Elf would rather give up his love and emotions – for duty. And in spite of the argument that Elladan and Elrohir were not elves, they were raised as such, meaning – their duties were the reason not to follow their mother, nor even their father. BTW, didn’t Aragorn, a man, do the same?! The historical situation and their education were the TRUE reasons for them to stay longer in ME AND to DELAY their decision, which >>> leads to the logical conclusion that they had NOT made their choice BEFORE the Paths of the dead.

5. Another missed argument:
Gothmog provided a quote:
2951 Arwen, newly returned from Lórien, meets Aragorn in the woods of Imladris. Aragorn out into the Wild

2980 - Aragorn enters Lórien and there meets again Arwen Undómiel. Aragorn gives her the ring of Barahir, and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth.
And then immediately after it:
“Arwen made her choice in 2951

Which is NOT like that! Arwen took her decision during their second and longer encounter in Lothlorien – in 2980.

There were some other similarly missed arguments, but my post has become too long already to continue with this “post-debate”! ;)

I wish you luck in your next debates, boys! :)

[Maedhros]

Aragorn WAS mortal but he did NOT fear!
Therefore, the arguments of BOTH – non-valid.
And where does it says that Aragorn didn't fear. I think it was his strenght of will that allowed him to overcome his fears and go through. Only Legolas was not afraid of them.
But Maedhros, when they chose a race they ACTUALLY become one of this race! Don’t you think?
No, there is a quote:
But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
I have always thought that they chose to be mortal myself. I chose the side that they chose to be elves only to reinforce my side.
Besides, Encyclopedia of Arda gives these Data about the sons:
Not really, the encyclopedia of Arda is not canon. The LOTR is.

Thanks for your response and assisting in the judging.:)

[Gothmog]

Lhunithiliel, You have nothing to ask forgivness for. You were asked to give judgement on the debate between myself and Maedhros, this you have done and I thank you and the other judges for taking the time to read through the debate and posting your decisions.

There is one point that I will take up with you however, you say that the discusion about the Letter of Tolkien (No 153) was "not too much related to the topic of the debate, therefore – not of much importance." Yet you say that one of the weak points missed by the both of us was a quote from that very letter. The quote you used was posted by Meadhros and resulted in the discusion you dismiss. As you say, the quote proves that they delayed their decision. Since I could not argue against the word of the author I could only try to minimise the importance of the source, the letter. Hence the discusion about it being sent or not sent.

But apart from that, I accept without reservation your judgement and I congratulate Maedhros for his victory.:) It was a very enjoyable little chat.

[Maedhros]

I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Gothmog. He is in my opinion the best debater I have seen in TTF. He is very technical and specific. When I see his post, I'm always like damn, good one and then I try and go to minimize the damage.
The only reason that I won was because I chose the easier side, if not the result would have been reversed.
Anc, aren't you forgetting something?

[Ancalagon]

My congratulations to both Maedhros and Gothmog for a stirling performance in this debate. Also, thank-you to the Judges for trying to decipher the arguements and make a call on the debate.

Gothmog - 1
Maedgros - 2
Draw - 2

Another close call, well done to Maedhros.

[Lhunithiliel]

So, Maedhros and Gothmog, you still leave an “open door” for a “post-debate” ;) :)
OK!

1. Maedhros: “And where does it says that Aragorn didn't fear. I think it was his strenght of will that allowed him to overcome his fears and go through.”
And where does it say that Elladan and Elrohir were afraid? You deduct this from the separate sentence:
“The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.”
But read the whole chapter “paths of the Dead” and you will deduct from many details that Elrond’s sons showed NO fear whatsoever!
As for Aragorn, I don’t think he was afraid in that pure sense of what “fear” is. I see a man who has acknowledged for himself the right to lead a people in a war as being their rightful king. A person with “fear” and/or “doubts” in his soul and thoughts could have never been able to behave as Aragorn did.

2. Maedhros provided the quote:
“But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.
Who, please tell me, was allowed to “pass from the circles of the world”? – The Elves. Therefore, if they chose to become Elves, they BECAME elves with all the characteristics of this race.

3. Gothmog, the Letter in question I did not find important for the debate ONLY from the aspect “sent - not sent”. As for its content, in particular – the quoted extract, I took into consideration.

Now as to whether Elladan and Elrohir became Elves or Men... noone says this. But let's leave some mysteries unexplained! ;) Otherwise, would we love Tolkien?