Apprentices

[Nóm]

This thread is for the Guild's apprentices to post anything that they want to say about the guild or any of Tolkien's books.
The reason I am starting this thread is that there are a lot of members who aren't active in the guild. I think that perhaps some are reluctant to post here. There is no reason to be though. everyone may post in any of the threads (unless it is a debate which you are not in) but if you have something to say that doesn't seem to fit in any of our threads you can say it here.
I can see that some may find certain subjects here a little beyond their knowledge but this guild is for people of all levels of knowledge, and I just hope that no one is avoiding the guild because they feel that they do not know enough to post in here. This would be a great thread for posting questions about people/things mentioned in The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings that you would like to know more about. Cirdan, Galadriel, Elrond...The One Ring, dwarves...anything. Or you can discuss Bilbo's adventure. Anything you like. But of course everyone is welcomed to post in any threads. This thread is just to take off any pressure you may have and to help you feel comfortable in the guild.

[Anamatar IV]

ive decided not to officially enter the guild until ive finished the sil. In a few days ill start with all of these things that confuse me now. Im in of Beren And Luthien.

[Eledhwen]

That's a greate story AnamatarIV. Did you know that JRRT has 'Beren' written on his gravestone, and his wife has 'Luthien' written on hers?

[Anamatar IV]

i heard that somewhere but i never understood why. I just finished. Best chapter in the book. It was worth its 30 some pages. :rolleyes:

[Elenaelin]

Hey- I'm not an apprentice, but oh well- I'm feeling very ignorant, but I unfortunately have no idea what the anacronizims ( I can't spell today- sincere apologies:rolleyes: ) for the books/texts required required for advancement in the Guild stand for- please enlighten this poor, confused Elf-maid! (I'm very eager to read more of Tokien's works :D

[Anamatar IV]

confusicated means apprentice of the guild. I am only 198 pages from Journeyman!!!!!!:D

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Elenaelin
Hey- I'm not an apprentice, but oh well- I'm feeling very ignorant, but I unfortunately have no idea what the anacronizims ( I can't spell today- sincere apologies:rolleyes: ) for the books/texts required required for advancement in the Guild stand for- please enlighten this poor, confused Elf-maid! (I'm very eager to read more of Tokien's works :D
Grond initially assigns a rank to every member but in the future one must test to advance. To go from Journeyman to expert you will have to read Unfinished Tales before testing. Grond posted this information someplace. I will hunt it down and add a link to this post so if you're reading it before I've added the link, just check back in awhile.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Elenaelin
Hey- I'm not an apprentice, but oh well- I'm feeling very ignorant, but I unfortunately have no idea what the anacronizims ( I can't spell today- sincere apologies:rolleyes: ) for the books/texts required required for advancement in the Guild stand for- please enlighten this poor, confused Elf-maid! (I'm very eager to read more of Tokien's works :D Right now rankings are made by me. :) I am implementing a reading requirement as well as an online/timed test to advance in the future.

The basics are reading requirements are as follows:
1) Apprentice - none or any up to Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
2) Journeyman - Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion
3) Expert - Journeyman required reading plus Unfinished Tales
4) Master - All of Expert plus 12 books of History of Middle-earth, Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien and some non-Middle-earth readings such as Farmer Giles of Ham... Smith of Wooten Major... The Adventures of Tom Bombadil... etc.

The test will be given online in real time.

[gate7ole]

I'm a Journeyman but I've read UT. I have also read the first 4 books of HOME. I'm now in the fifth. Why aren't I an expert? Is it because I've been reading Tolkien for less than 2 years (I think I read it somewhere)?
Not that it is so important to be ranked Expert (I will lose the right to debate with Lhunithiniel and Confust.)

[Elenaelin]

daft- I've read the non middle earth related works...heaven knows where I'll find the others...bookshops in my locale aren't very reliable when it comes to Tolkien...

[Grond]

At some point in the near future, I will have extra copies of all his works to loan out. I will mail them to you and you may then read them and send them back. The only cost you would have to cover is the postage back to me. How's that sound?

For those who want to purchase the books, I will be happy to purchase them for you here in the States and mail them to you after I received your payment. Just let me know. :)

[Nenya Evenstar]

:eek: That sounds wonderful!!!! Wow, now that's impressive if I may say so. I'm looking forward to this new development very much! I think that we members of this guild are going to have a lot to thank Grond for in a very short time....

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
:eek: That sounds wonderful!!!! Wow, now that's impressive if I may say so. I'm looking forward to this new development very much! I think that we members of this guild are going to have a lot to thank Grond for in a very short time....

It is impressive. Grond is dedicated to this guild. I am thankful for him even starting and inviting me to this guild, things like him becoming the Guild library are added bonuses that make this guild even more great.

[Nenya Evenstar]

And I might add the same about your invitation to me to join the guild.... thanks! And I believe that this is the best guild on the forum!

[Grond]

I might add that it is an honour to be affiliated with such a fine group of people. All of you make the guild a fun and informative place to be. :):cool: ;)

[Eledhwen]

I'd like to assure forum members in England that local libraries will reserve or obtain any copy of Tolkien's published works for you. If you are a minor it will probably be free, otherwise a nominal charge is made to cover postage etc. (a letter is sent to inform you when the book arrives).

I have been able to reserve some rare treasures in this way - for instance "The Journeys of Frodo" which is a superbly researched map book which traces the route of all the Fellowship on contoured maps. I even used the library to watch PJ's version on video so I can wait until November before buying it.

[dgoof911]

I am wondering what the qualifications are for each rank? I can't seem to find it.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Grond
Right now rankings are made by me. :) I am implementing a reading requirement as well as an online/timed test to advance in the future.

The basics are reading requirements are as follows:
1) Apprentice - none or any up to Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
2) Journeyman - Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion
3) Expert - Journeyman required reading plus Unfinished Tales
4) Master - All of Expert plus 12 books of History of Middle-earth, Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien and some non-Middle-earth readings such as Farmer Giles of Ham... Smith of Wooten Major... The Adventures of Tom Bombadil... etc.

The test will be given online in real time.

:D In case you're wondering where I found this post, it was several posts ago in this very thread. :eek: ;)

[Anamatar IV]

im gonna finish like tomorrow so what test isit again that im taking?

[Elenaelin]

At some point in the near future, I will have extra copies of all his works to loan out. I will mail them to you and you may then read them and send them back. The only cost you would have to cover is the postage back to me. How's that sound?

Wow... that's SO generous of you Grond:D :D :D This is definitely one of the most superior guilds on this board!Your dedication to the guild is ... wow...that's all I can say- and I haven't been on these boards very long:)

[Ancalagon]

I would also suggest to those of you who obviously have access to the internet (or else you wouldnt be reading this) to consider using a mail order facility for ordering your copies of HOME, or any other Tolkien work for that matter.

If you consider the depth of these works, you will need to read them, refer to them, refer back to them and question their content for a long, long time to come. Whereas Grond will only be able to loan books out every so often, I imagine with a time limit attached.

Most paperback versions can be obtained from www.amazon.com relatively cheaply. Though I am surprised that your local bookstore cannot obtain these for you if you order them. I would truly hope that each member would try to obtain their own copies first and use Gronds kind offer as a last choice.

[Anamatar IV]

chances are im gonna have to stop at journeyman. I wont have time to read those long books until summer. My english teacher wants us to read 'classics.' Books weve never read before. He gave us a whole list. LOTR is on it but i cant read it. Actually im lookning forward to reading watership down, tom sawer book thing, and others.

[Anamatar IV]

oh wow i just figured this out! Turgon carried Glamdring! Ill direct you to my thread in the sil forum called did turgon weild glamdring. Since turgon was THE ONLY king of gondolin it means that he did use it!!!! Any problems? I feel so smart now!

[Nóm]

This is how the activity works: I'll start off by asking why a certain charactor did or did not do something. ... people will give their answers, I will then pick one of the people who answers to ask the next one, and they will do the same and so on...

Why did Merry go to Minas Tirith?
Answer as breifly or thoroughly as you like, the one I think best will go next....and so on. :D

[Anamatar IV]

well i still am technically an appretnice so...

To go to war with Theoden king. He didnt want to be left behind and he considered himself more or less luggage. But basically to go where Theoden went.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'll be an apprentice too.... :D

He also said that he would be ashamed to stay behind as all his friends had gone into battle.

[Nóm]

hey this is for people of all ranks, but it is special desgined so that apprentices can easily take part. :D


Anamatar, you ask the next one.

[Anamatar IV]

why did Gandalf get sent back to Middle-Earth after he died (i think this is lotr)

[Hirila]

Which leads to the question I have ever been turning over in my mind: Did Gandalf really DIE? I never read anywhere that he did. He nearly died in Moria, but as far as I know he survived the fight with the Balrog.

Or is there another incindent somewhere I cannot remember?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Hirila
Which leads to the question I have ever been turning over in my mind: Did Gandalf really DIE? I never read anywhere that he did. He nearly died in Moria, but as far as I know he survived the fight with the Balrog.

Or is there another incindent somewhere I cannot remember? He died.from The Two Towers, The White Rider

'A burden you have been,' he answered, 'but not so now. Light as a
swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind.'

'Do not let me fall!' I gasped, for I felt life in me again. 'Bear me
to Lothlorien!'from The Two Towers, The Voice of Saruman
...'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed.
I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.'That should be enough but there are other quotes in the Letters that make it completely clear that Gandalf died and was re-housed as Gandalf the White under no less orders than those of Iluvator. It was one of the few times in all the ages of Middle-earth where Iluvator himself interceded. :)

[Anamatar IV]

hey grond 'ol buddy ol' boy! When can i be a journeyman?

[Grond]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
hey grond 'ol buddy ol' boy! When can i be a journeyman? Maybe when you start including this guild affiliation in your sig. You have a guild affiliation now which isn't even a recognized guild.

If you are seriously ready to try, I will give you a test next week. PM me with a time you will be free. It will also go easier if you have MSN/Messenger or AOL Instant Messenger. Please advise.

[Nenya Evenstar]

On the topic question:

Gandalf was sent back to Middle-earth after he died simply for the purpose of fulfilling the task that was given to him in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent to Middle-earth to contest the power of Sauron and to move all Elves and men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds. He had not yet fulfilled this purpose when he died and was thus sent back to Middle-earth by the Valar in Aman.

[Grond]

Hmmph! Nenya! I just posted that Gandalf was restored and returned to Middle-earth through Iluvator's direct interference. The Valar were watching but not involved. I can tell you don't read my posts. :(

[Nenya Evenstar]

Grond, now I'm the confused one. I can assure you that I do read your posts and that I try to pay attention to each and everyone of them because I greatly value your opinions. I was under the impression that you were answering Hirlia's question and not Anamatar's. I was just answering Anamatar's question.
Anamatar's question:
why did Gandalf get sent back to Middle-Earth after he died (i think this is lotr)
Hirilia's question:
Which leads to the question I have ever been turning over in my mind: Did Gandalf really DIE? I never read anywhere that he did. He nearly died in Moria, but as far as I know he survived the fight with the Balrog.
So that's why I went on because it seemed to me that you did not answer why Gandalf was sent back, but answered that he did indeed die.
The Valar were watching but not involved.
I'm sure that they had to have been involved in a certain sense because Manwe would have been the Vala in charge of getting Illuvatar's wishes, for Gandalf couldn't have spoken directly with The One himself.

Hope this clears a little.... :)

[Tar-Elenion]

JRRT wrote in Letter 156:
"He [Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'."
It is made clear in the Letter that "Authority" refers to God, Eru Iluvatar.

[Hirila]

Thanks to you all for quarreling over my question. This gives me exact the amount of attention I need to keep me ego happy!:D

It seems I simply can't remember that.
Do I get old? senile? I once read that brain cells start diminishing at the age of 16. I seem to be a perfect example for this theory. Did I tell you that I am reading LotR (again) these days and am now begginning with the chapter where they go to Isengart (leaving Helm's Deep). So I should have read this only some pages ago. Oh, I'm really getting old. Buuhuuuhuuu...*sniff*

[Nenya Evenstar]

Hehehe... don't worry Hirilia! I guess if the brain cell theory is correct I've already started losing mine. Oh well!

Thank you Tar-Elenion for the quote! So now I am convinced that it was indeed Illuvatar that intervened and sent Gandalf back to Middle Earth. However, my point was that even though this order was directly from Illuvatar himself, perhaps Manwe at least was still involved to relay that order to Gandalf. Who knows, perhaps Illuvatar spoke directly to Gandalf, or perhaps he spoke to Gandalf through Manwe.

[Hirila]

Or perhaps Gandalf IS Iluvatar, as discussed somewhere else on this forum.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Thank you Tar-Elenion for the quote! So now I am convinced that it was indeed Illuvatar that intervened and sent Gandalf back to Middle Earth. However, my point was that even though this order was directly from Illuvatar himself, perhaps Manwe at least was still involved to relay that order to Gandalf. Who knows, perhaps Illuvatar spoke directly to Gandalf, or perhaps he spoke to Gandalf through Manwe.

Not possible. As JRRT points out in that Letter Gandalf 'passed out of thought and time', and the Valar are concerned only with 'this embodied world and its time'. As Gandalf passed out of time that means he went outside of Ea (Creation, the Universe) and to Iluvatar.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Hirila
Or perhaps Gandalf IS Iluvatar, as discussed somewhere else on this forum.

Who was "Gandalf?" It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manwë himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olórin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf. Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Gandalf is Olórin and Olórin is Gandalf. He is not Eru or Manwe or any other, except that whom he said he was.
Gandalf said again, "Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten" when he spoke to the Hobbits and Gimli in Minas Tirith after the coronation of King Elessar: see "The Quest of Erebor," p.344

It could not be reasonable to suggest that Olórin lived as Eru among the Valar and was selected by Manwe to make the journey to Middle-Earth.
Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
It is however more reasonable to suggest Eru's willingness to return him to Middle-Earth following his spiritual departure beyond thought and time.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Once more thank-you! I am now convinced that Manwe and the Valar did not have any part in sending Gandalf back to Middle-earth. However, some questions now arise: Why was Gandalf allowed to exit the confines of of the world? The Ainur who descended into Ea were bound to the world for they were its life and it was theirs. Now why would Gandalf be able to leave the confines of the world against the condition that Eru made in the beginning? How did Gandalf die in the first place? I mean, Sauron's two destructions were a lot more violent and terrible than Gandalf's death, and yet Sauron's spirit remained in Ea after both defeats. In the same way Saruman was killed and yet his spirit was still bound to the world. What made Gandalf so special that he could die and disobey the very first command of Eru to the Ainur who went into Ea?

Perhaps the Valar and the Maia had different fates and the Maia were not bound to Ea as the Valar were. The Sil. is not completely clear about this, and I am not sure if there are other books which explain it. Still, I do not see why Gandalf is so special as to be the only Maia whose spirit actually leaves Ea.

[Mithlond]

The Ainur (both Valar and Maiar), were bound to Arda once they descended into it, their fates are the same as far as i know.

The only reason i can think of that makes Gandalf different is that Eru was watching him closely the whole time, just as he watches everything else that goes on in Arda.
When Gandalf's body was killed, his spirit left the confines of the world and went straight to Eru.
Why? Perhaps Eru called for him as soon as he died, he broke his rule because he realised that Gandalf was the only hope left in arousing the hearts of men to challenge Sauron. All the other Istari had failed really, Gandalf was the only one left that showed any sign of hope, and having his body killed was the perfect chance for Eru to take him, enhance his power a little, and then send him back to complete the task set for him.

[Melian Le Fay]

I think your explanation is very reasonable, Mithlond. Eru is God, and he created everything, and he has the powers to undo whatever he made, including his first command. The other Ainur are prevented in leaving Arda because of the God's laws... but God is above these laws, I guess he IS everything, so he could bring Gandalf to himself...


Another non-realted Q, but I must know this: 75 US $, is that much for some fancy-Lotr books...? How much are they in USA, or UK, or wherever you guys are from?
(sorry I posted this, but Confusticated sai we could ask anything! ;) :p )

[Ancalagon]

Another non-realted Q, but I must know this: 75 US $, is that much for some fancy-Lotr books...? How much are they in USA, or UK, or wherever you guys are from?

I would PM Grond with this question as he has a taste for finely bound, extravagant copies of Tolkiens work. He ought to be able to give you a steer on costs, value etc.:D

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
Hmmph! Nenya! I just posted that Gandalf was restored and returned to Middle-earth through Iluvator's direct interference. The Valar were watching but not involved. I can tell you don't read my posts. :( Is that actually written somewhere in the books or is that just anotherone of your highly interesting hypotheses?

PS: And, yes, I have read Letter #156 (as far as it is published in the book) and the drafts in HoMe about that issue...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
Is that actually written somewhere in the books or is that just anotherone of your highly interesting hypotheses?

PS: And, yes, I have read Letter #156 (as far as it is published in the book) and the drafts in HoMe about that issue... Walter, go back seven posts and read what Tar-Elenion posted on the subject. I share his opinion or vice versa. The Valar are bound to the Realm of Middle-earth and the "Time" that was formed therein. That is clearly stated in The Silmarillion. Gandalf passed out of thought and time is a clear reference to his having passed beyond the Halls of Mandos as Mandos and his Halls are bound to Aman.

Walter, one must read the works of JRRT, grasp the Laws of the world that JRRT has set up and then apply those laws in a pratical manner. Sorry you don't seem to grasp them enough yet to come to the higher order thinking necessary to grasp these deep concepts. Don't worry though, after you've studied the works another ten or twenty years you might begin to understand and then you can put the title "Master Tolkienologist" in your sig. (OH... and join my guild and earn the Rank!)

[Walter]

Grond, many thanks for the kind offer to join your guild someday, but please don't hold your breath on that... ;)

As for the issue of Gandalf's resurrection, I don't think that Tolkien ever "made that clear" how you prefer to refer to your theories every now and then. I rather think that this is again one of your personal conclusions which may or may not apply...

As a matter of fact, I think that Tolkien left open many things for the reader to decide, purposely or not doesn't really matter. What IMO does matter is when some people - regardless how long or how many times they have read Tolkien's books start selling their personal interpretations as "facts". This - again IMO - cannot be in the interest of Tolkien's memory as one of the greatest authors of this century.

Coming across - especially to newer members - a little less bold and cocksure about what the facts and what the personal interpretations are, would - again IMO - suit some of the older members of this board pretty well.

Grond, if you are interested to learn how those with not only real knowledge of Tolkien's works, but also with the necessary humbleness and respect for Tolkien's epos, choose the wording of their statements, I would suggest you read some of Cian's posts...

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
...Coming across - especially to newer members - a little less bold and cocksure about what the facts and what the personal interpretations are, would - again IMO - suit some of the older members of this board pretty well.

Grond, if you are interested to learn how those with not only real knowledge of Tolkien's works, but also with the necessary humbleness and respect for Tolkien's epos, choose the wording of their statements, I would suggest you read some of Cian's posts... When I feel strongly on a subject, I respond accordingly. Most of the members of the Guild of Tolkienology seem to like me for what I truly am... and that is a genuinely great fan of J. R. R. Tolkien.

What I don't understand is your apparent animosity for me. It seems you find it fun to follow me around the forum jabbing and poking at my every post. If that is fun for you, I'm old and crusty enough to ignore it. I've tried to explain the the Tolkienologist ranking system is simply a guild rank and has nothing to do with being a true master of Tolkien. I do not consider myself one as I haven't any understanding of the Elvish languages.

As for Cian, he is the person I most admire on the forum and the person I would most like to be able to PM regularly but he is not reachable.

As for your assertion that I am again making a "guess" as to whether Gandalf was brought back by Eru, I again direct you to the Letters already cited and the only logical conclusion one can reach from the "thought and time" quote. Some people cannot see the forest for the trees. Maybe you are one of those. I couldn't say.

[Walter]

Grond,

no, I don't feel an animosity towards you, in fact you were among those people I used to respect the most when I was a newbie on this forum. All I would wish for, is that you distinguish between what Tolkien has actually and explicitly written and what is a - logical, intuitive or possible, but however a personal - conclusion. And I would find it helpful if the latter was recognizable as such in your posts.

As for your guild, I think you have created a good thing here, you have built one of the most frequented and interesting guilds - more or less from scratch - within a few weeks. With this you have not only earned the due respect, but IMO there goes also some responsibility with that. The responsibility - especially towards younger and eventually less knowledgeable members - to not only to show them your enthusiasm, but also your respect for Tolkien's epos. And with respect for Tolkien's epos I mean drawing a clear line between what Tolkien has written and what is - no matter how valid or justified - personal interpretation of whoever.

Once again on the subject of G's resurrection, you don't seem to read my posts either. I dont think you made a guess, I think you did some interpretation which may or may not apply:Originally posted by Walter
PS: And, yes, I have read Letter #156 (as far as it is published in the book) and the drafts in HoMe about that issue... I have read said letter and the passage T-E quotes is indeed the only statement in all of Tolkien's works that I have found to support your theory. However in the same letter a little earlier Tolkien says:There are, I suppose, always defects in any large-scale work of art; and especially in those of literary form that are founded on an earlier matter which is put to new uses – like Homer, or Beowulf, or Virgil, or Greek or Shakespearean tragedy! In which class, as a class not as a competitor, The Lord of the Rings really falls though it is only founded on the author's own first draft! I think the way in which Gandalf's return is presented is a defect, and one other critic, as much under the spell as yourself, curiously used the same expression: 'cheating'. That is partly due to the ever-present compulsions of narrative technique. He must return at that point, and such explanations of his survival as are explicitly set out must be given there – but the narrative is urgent, and must not be held up for elaborate discussions involving the whole 'mythological' setting. It is a little impeded even so, though I have severely cut G's account of himself. and a little later Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'. And so on. I might say much more, but it would only be in (perhaps tedious) elucidation of the 'mythological' ideas in my mind; it would not, I fear, get rid of the fact that the return of G. is as presented in this book a 'defect', and one I was aware of, and probably did not work hard enough to mend.
A little more of G's account is given in the HoMe, IIRC Gandalf does not die in an earlier draft which may indicate that Tolkien made up his mind on that issue rather late (if at all when he was writing the story and not as an afterthought). IMO this all is not enough to justify a statement in the matter of factly way - and besides in a rather rude form towards Nenya - like you made it in the post I first quoted...

[Grond]

Okay, now that Walter and I have had our little exchange I will simply state that it appears from Letter #156 that Gandalf was restored by Eru but that there is room for other discussion on the matter. I also apologize to anyone if I appeared "cocksure" or "overbearing". I will try to be more civil and responsive, especially to our younger and more impressionable members. I would also like to thank Walter for pointing out my error.

[Samwise_hero]

It's nice to see that we feel so strongly about Tolkien's works.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, back to topic! Apprentices! I hope to see you here! The new question is:

Why did Sauron attempt to regain his power in ME after his first defeat by Gil-Galad and Elendil?

Have fun! :p

[Elennainie]

I think this thread for apprentices is a great idea. Although I sincerely hope to be accepted as apprentice into this guild, I haven't heard back from Grond yet, so I hope it's o.k. to participate. (He did invite me though.) I will try to answer this question, but I am a bit overwhelmed by the knowledge the other guild members possess!

Here is my attempt: Sauron thought that the Valar had forgotten about ME, so he assumed was free to do as he wished. Also "the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong" and he both hated the elves and was afraid of the Numenorians.
Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Numenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth... -from the Silmarillion "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

Also, perhaps it was because he never went to receive pardon from Manwe and so hadn't truly repented. This he didn't do because he was ashamed.

[Eonwe ] commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwe. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence... -from the same as above

[Grond]

Welcome to Elennainie our newest Expert Tolkienologist. Her name has already been in the rolls but I have just assigned her a rank. Welcome again!

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thank you for your wonderful post and welcome to the guild, Elennainie! It's great to see you! :)

I would also like to add that Sauron wished to dominate and rule the world of men in Middle-earth. It is only likely to expect that he would still desire this after his first defeat.

Anyone else want to add their comments?

[gandalfthegrey]

i think grond deserves a three cheers for doing so much great work for this forum this gulid and promoting J.R. Tolkien's books !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
good work keep it up.