story change - Henneth Annûn [Archive]

PRH

09-30-2002, 11:50 PM

Small spoilers ahead - not really a spoiler if you watched the new trailer closely:

Based on the trailer, it appears that when Sam & Frodo are captured by Faramir they will not be taken to Henneth Annûn but rather to Osgiliath.

I think this is good and bad.

Bad:
-most changes are bad out of hand.
-I was really looking forward to seeing Henneth Annûn, I thought it would've looked stunning

Good:
-makes more sense to let Gollum go, since the existence of Osgiliath is no secret.
-If Faramir is to become prince of Ithilien (as per the book) at the end of ROTK, it'll be a nice full circle having seen Osgiliath (it's main city) before (perhaps Faramir will speak of how beautiful Ithilien/Osgiliath once was).

Thoughts?

(btw - the reason I know this is the 'shot-by'shot' description on the official site (lordoftherings.net) describes a shot of Osgiliath with "Faramir takes the hobbits to the besieged city of Osgiliath.")

Talimon

10-01-2002, 12:24 AM

Edit: Saw comments on official site

I assume you make this assumption due to a comment on the official site's frame-by-frame commentary. Here is what is says, exactly:

Faramir takes the hobbits to the besieged city of Osgiliath.

While your guess is as good as any, take into account that this could very well happen after the hobbits have left the secret refuge in Ithilien. I agree that it's too bad, but let's see it before we criticize it. I could see this working out quite well, under the right circumstances. I'm thinking in terms of the audience seeing Gondors glory destroyed, Faramir showing Frodo the ancient majesty of it.

PRH

10-01-2002, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Talimon
take into account that this could very well happen after the hobbits have left the secret refuge in Ithilien.
Maybe...but I seriously doubt it.

I think that what is gained outweighs (cinematically speaking) what is lost by this change.

BUT - maybe they will meld Henneth Annûn and Osgiliath - maybe there will still be a waterfall doorway somewhere in Osgiliath and maybe they will still spot Gollum fishing in a pool (again, at Osgiliath). It certainly wouldn't be a secret place though. No big loss.

Talimon

10-01-2002, 02:54 AM

By the way, on the preiview on the DVD we see the actor who is motion capturing Gollum holding a fish. This could very easily just be some other fish from some other pond, but the way he's acting suggests he is alone.

The one aspect of Henneth Annûn I really liked was the sunset. It was kind of an emotional moment, sort of like the last setting of the sun before Saurons armies conquer. Then again, a sunset over the ruins of Osgiliath, shimmering off of the river Anduin, would be quite a sight.

PRH

10-01-2002, 05:50 PM

Are you sure you're in the right thread Leto?

Leto

10-01-2002, 06:10 PM

I moved that other post. As for Osgiliath...I guess they want to show that Gondor is already under attack, at the same time Rohan is. I wonder how the timing will be altered. In the book, Frodo and Sam and Gollum witness the army issuing from Minas Morgul, heading towards Osgiliath, after they leave Faramir and Henneth Annun. Will they be leaving Osgiliath as the black army is getting there, in the movie? Or will the army already be there (as the website calls it 'under seige')...and so we will see Faramir and his men holding the city against the Witch King's army. In the ROTK movie, I guess, they will be over run at last, making Faramir's part more cinematic, as he flees to Minas Tirith with the Nazgul close on his heels.

PRH

10-22-2002, 07:45 AM

Just looked at a list of Decipher cards. One of them (no picture provided) is named Henneth Annun. Now I'm confused. Will we see both Henneth Annun and Osgiliath in TTT? Will Henneth Annun be part of Osgiliath? I just can't see Faramir taking S&F to both places...

http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/twotowers/index.html

Pale King

10-22-2002, 04:14 PM

One other angle on this; Games Workshop have the official New Line rights to produce the Two Towers tabletop skirmish game. This follows their production of the Fellowship game last year. The important thing is that their game is based entirely on the film rather than the book. The game is heavilly scenario based and in the soon to be released rulebook for The Two Towers there is a scenario that has Frodo and Sam trying to outrun and escape a band of Uruks through the sewers of Osgiliath. This can only mean that that scene will be in the film...

PRH

10-22-2002, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Pale King
in the soon to be released rulebook for The Two Towers there is a scenario that has Frodo and Sam trying to outrun and escape a band of Uruks through the sewers of Osgiliath.
What on Middle Earth?!

Talimon

10-22-2002, 10:53 PM

in the soon to be released rulebook for The Two Towers there is a scenario that has Frodo and Sam trying to outrun and escape a band of Uruks through the sewers of Osgiliath.

I must concur with PRH: WTF?!?!

I am pretty sure that is a highly unfounded rumour. I know table-top games rely on fighting, so obviously they'll set up odd scenarios. Don't go frightining us by saying it's in the movie, though...shiver...not just orcs, either...but Uruks!!!...double-whammy...

PRH

10-23-2002, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Talimon
...not just orcs, either...but Uruks!!!...double-whammy...[/i]
Maybe they will slightly redeem themselves by (correctly) distinguishing Uruks from Uruk Hai.

Talimon

10-23-2002, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by PRH
Maybe they will slightly redeem themselves by (correctly) distinguishing Uruks from Uruk Hai.

Feels untutored...I asked someone about that once and they told me they were the exact same...mind correcting me?

ravenbrand

10-23-2002, 04:59 PM

as far as I know uruk is elvish for orc in general
uruk hai is the new breed of orc loyal to Sarumon
correct me if im wrong

PRH

10-23-2002, 06:09 PM

I'm of the opinion that Uruk refers to Uruks of Mordor - the larger breed of orc (Grishnak, Shagrat for instance). Uruk-Hai is the half-Uruk, half-Goblin Man breed that Saruman bred (Ugluk). Then you got your garden variety orc - the littler ones (Moria orcs for instance).

There is debate on this topic, but I'm reasonably convinced that Uruks and Uruk-Hai are distinct.

Parrot

10-23-2002, 06:31 PM

Ravenbrand, welcome aboard and here you go. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2146) Knock yourself out.

Pale King

10-25-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Talimon
I am pretty sure that is a highly unfounded rumour. I know table-top games rely on fighting, so obviously they'll set up odd scenarios. Don't go frightining us by saying it's in the movie, though...shiver...not just orcs, either...but Uruks!!!...double-whammy...
Well its a tricky one. On the one hand I have seen the rulebook and it is definately in as a scenario. On the other hand that doesnt mean that that scene is definately in the movie. However, the GW game is tied very very very closely to the New Line film in all its imagry and its gaming plot. For this reason the miniature range is tied exactly to the film rather than the book and so for example there is no Bombadil miniature, the scenario at Balins tomb is beween "Moria Goblins" and a Cave Troll vs the Fellowship. Another example is that in the game there is a Wizards Duel scenario between Gandalf and Saruman, ie taken from the film and indicitive this time last year of a movie plot change. The miniatures are sculpted in the likeness of the actors rather than the characters. Another Two Towers example is the game scenarios at Helms Deep involve Haldir and some Lothlorien Elves. Obviously this is because of the film rather than the book.

All this does rather point to the Osgiliath sewer chase being in the film.

On the same lines - there is a Warg Riders attack scenario in the new game which takes place between Orc Warg Riders and the fleeing refugees of Rohan. This is never discribed in the book, however it is in the game and is confirmed as also being in the movie. I actually have less of a problem with that scene being included in the movie because of the descriptions of the Battles of the Ford of Isen in Unfinished Tales, but perhaps that discussion can wait a bit, I'm meant to be working.

Talimon

10-25-2002, 11:33 PM

The questions is this, though: Did the FotR table-top game have scenarios that weren't in the movie?

Pale King

10-27-2002, 11:22 PM

Only one; the "Flight To Lothlorien" scenario. This was a chase from the Fellowships exit from Moria to the eves of Lothlorien by Orcs. This scene was not in the movie, however it was filmed and then cut very late on. There are pictures in the Fellowship rulebook of Lorien Elves having killed large numbers of Orcs as they enter Lothlorien after chasing the fellowship from Moria. All the photos are there and if you know that that scene was meant to be in the movie, the transition from Morias east gate to the eves of Lothlorien in the movie does jar slightly for the viewer (IMHO). Its a slightly sudden jarring scene change in the movie as a result of the cut.

So in answer to the question, yes, one, but it was originally filmed and meant to be in.

Talimon

10-28-2002, 05:55 AM

We'll just have to hope and see :(.

PRH

10-29-2002, 01:37 AM

Perhaps the timeline in the movie is just being shifted to have the siege of Osgiliath take place when F&S are in the general area. I guess that once they decide to make this shift and to take the story to Osgiliath, it stands to reason that such a scene -- a orc sewer chase -- could take place.

However...sewers? Are the writers trying to draw some parallel between Gondor and ancient Rome?

Talimon

10-29-2002, 11:27 PM

However...sewers? Are the writers trying to draw some parallel between Gondor and ancient Rome?

While I am still hoping this is just another unfounded rumour, I have to point out besides the point that Tolkien himself drew many parralels between Gondor and Rome. Not blatantly, but if you look it is obvious that there are many subtle similarities.

Boromir's Lady

11-07-2002, 06:24 PM

I was saddened to think that Henneth Annun may NOT be in TTT. The other day I found some pictures that were taken at the TTT Exhibit and it certainly looks like a few of these pics resemble a cave system. It does not say what the pics are of so I am not positive it is Henneth Annun - but to me it seems like it is! I hope so!

Here is the link to the pics for anyone who would like to check them out.

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1036633165 (TTT exhibit pics)

http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/5042 (TTT exhibit pics)

http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/5038 (TTT exhibit pics)

PRH

11-07-2002, 08:30 PM

I think I am wrong now about the absence of Henneth Annun. For one thing, those pics are certainly of a cave, and they have Frodo and Sam's costumes (we've also seen movie stills of Faramir with F&S in that same setting). The real clincher is that I read this "young reader" TTT Movie Guide which said that Faramir takes Frodo and Sam to Henneth Annun. It doesn't say anything about them getting there or doing anything there - the next mention of that crowd is that they arrive at Osgiliath.

I think I can maybe piece together what happens here now (this is probably 85% if not 100% true, so SPOILER WARNING!):

1-Frodo and Sam are captured by Faramir

2-They are blindfolded and taken to Henneth Annun and questioned (i.e. - the interrogation scene that in the book took place where F&S were captured now takes place in Henneth Annun).

3-Faramir decides to take F&S back to Osgiliath (and eventually Minas Tirith probably) to use the Ring (carry on where Boromir left off)

4-Something happens at Osgiliath to change Faramir's mind and he let's Frodo and Sam go -- they escape an under-seige Osgiliath via the sewers.

I don't know when, where, and if the forbidden pool scene with Gollum fits in. My best guess at this point is that it is this encounter, Faramir meeting Gollum, that changes his mind to let Frodo go.

Talimon

11-08-2002, 12:01 AM

That sounds very close to what I've been hearing, PRH. From the Warofthering.net:

Apparently Faramir is originally tempted by the power of the ring and intends to take it to his father Denethor in Minas Tirith, and his band of rangers go to Osgiliath which has been besieged. While in Osgiliath Faramir realizes he can not use the ring from persuasion from Frodo and Sam and chooses to let Gollum, Frodo, Sam go to Mordor via the sewers as to avoid the Surrounding Orc patrols. Doesn't mention if gollum is captured in Ithilien or Osgiliath.

Doesn't mention anything about Henneth Annun, but it could be there. Actually, the way you put it could really work out well, in my opinion. There is something to be said about Faramir innitially choosing to take the ring, however, since in the book one of the important themes is that he doens't want such power. But it could also play out with the charachter dynamics quite well. We'll see. I still don't think they should be chased by orcs in the sewers, though :).

PRH

11-08-2002, 05:05 AM

If anyone belongs in the sewers in Ithilien, it's the Haradrim (you heard me).

The Henneth Annun mention is in that 'young reader' TT guide. I have to wonder if that's a mistake. Maybe the author was confusing the book with the movie just a bit. Nevertheless, we have seen those pictures of F & S & Faramir in a cave with those barrels around (Henneth Annun had this type of storage), which suggests Henneth Annun.

I really can't see how Gollum fits in...

Note: PJ/FW/PB's screenwriting method for these LOTR characters is becoming clear. In the book, most of the characters don't change much, if at all. Stuff happens to them, but they're almost the same people when all is said and done. Frodo is the most prominent exception. Eowyn sort-of also. However, in the movies, the screenwriters are giving other characters 'arcs.' Most notably, Aragorn has a character arc. Book Aragorn intends all along to claim the kingship. Movie Aragorn works around to that state of mind in the course of the events of the War of the Ring. Elrond also has an arc. Book Elrond is unchanging. Movie Elrond goes from "men? Men are weak!," to "we must put our trust in men," and who knows what else (Elrond should not have an arc - at his age, he should have it all figured out). I think Eowyn's arc is gonna get played up a lot more than the book, as is Theodens. Presumably, Faramir is also gonna get an arc. Rather than being this altruistic, untemptable fellow from the get go, he will struggle with the idea of the Ring for a while before becoming like the book Faramir.

Talimon

11-08-2002, 09:38 PM

Yes, I agree that arcs are a big theme here. Which, in my opinion, adds a lot. I don't agree about the books charachters not having arcs, however. Frodo and Sam for sure have arcs. Merry and Pippin as well. Aragorn I feel on a more subtle level. Gimili and Legolas, in thier friendship. Boromir, deffinitely. Denethor, obviously. Theoden. Heck, even Saruman. Perhaps the only charachter without a noticeable arcs is Gandalf. His charachter changes after his "death", but it's not much of an arc.

PRH

11-08-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Talimon
Yes, I agree that arcs are a big theme here. Which, in my opinion, adds a lot. I don't agree about the books charachters not having arcs, however. Frodo and Sam for sure have arcs. Merry and Pippin as well. Aragorn I feel on a more subtle level. Gimili and Legolas, in thier friendship. Boromir, deffinitely. Denethor, obviously. Theoden. Heck, even Saruman. Perhaps the only charachter without a noticeable arcs is Gandalf. His charachter changes after his "death", but it's not much of an arc.
Frodo-yes.
Sam-no. Same old Sam at the end.
M&P-Somewhat. More than Sam. I feel like stuff was more 'thrust upon them' rather than a personal change. They certainly wouldn't have rallied the Shire before their journey however.
Aragorn-absolutely not.
Gimli&Legolas-not really. That 'dwarf vs. elf' thing was scarcely present- it was mostly the Lorien elves' prejudice regarding Moria.
Boromir-no...well, he recants on his death bed.
Denethor-no. The Palantir had done it's work from the moment we met him.
Theoden-yeah...it was all because of being released from the spell though, not a real personal change. I imagine the post-healing Theoden was almost exactly like the younger Theoden.
Saruman?-no. He was once good, but not during the LOTR story.

The way I judge a character arc is - 'would the character treat a given situation the same before and after the story?' If basically 'yes,' then no real arc. I call that more just being dragged around by the circumstances of the story.

Boromir's Lady

11-10-2002, 03:10 PM

Boromir most certainly had an 'Arc'. He was one of the very few that that did as far as the first movie goes. His arc went right along with everything I learned in my screenwriting classes.

This was pointed out in the above post: "The way I judge a character arc is - 'would the character treat a given situation the same before and after the story?' If basically 'yes,' then no real arc."

Boromir would NOT have treated the situation the same afterwards. If he had lived he would want to destroy the ring just as much as the others.

If you want to know what Peter Jackson and Sean Bean (who played Boromir) thought about Boromir's character arc, here is an excerpt about it from an article with them.

"Yet Boromir has what actors and writers call "an arc", in which the
character grows and changes - in Boromir's case, for better and for
worse. "I think during the course of his journey you can see there is
some sensitivity to him and a vulnerability," Bean says. "I believe
that he's a good man and wants to do well for his people, but he's
got weaknesses. He's susceptible to the Ring because he's a mortal."
Boromir is no villain, Bean makes clear, calling the character "a
hero with faults."

:)

PRH

11-10-2002, 09:56 PM

In my last post I was talking about characters' arc in the book. My whole point is that the screenwriters (PJ/FW/PB) have injected much more significant character arcs in the the movie version of many of the characters compared to the book versions.

PRH

11-11-2002, 06:40 PM

Could this lend credence to the idea of Henneth Annun and Osgiliath being amalgomated into one location? I think the DNR would have to stock that pool with fishess..
http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/verylatesttttphotos/imagepages/image65.shtml

On the other hand...
http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/verylatesttttphotos/imagepages/image24.shtml
...why blindfold F&S just to take them to the very well-known city of Osgiliath?

Talimon

11-11-2002, 08:46 PM

PRH, I think the movie-guide reffers to Henneth Annun. I'm pretty confident they go there first. The main question now is whether Faramirs charachter looses anything by not immediately refusing the ring. If he first decides to take it, and only at Osgiliath changes his mind, what does that tell us of, say, Boromir? Boromir too might have changed his mind. Yet Tolkien made sure Boromir and Faramir were distinctly different. Hopefully PJ can bring this across. I can see a rather powerful scene here with Faramir seeing Frodo's madness, and changing his mind. I just hope it doesn't hurt Faramirs charachter too much.

PRH

11-11-2002, 09:03 PM

Talimon-
I know the 'young reader' movie guide talked of going to Henneth Annun. I don't think the regular one did. Neither made any mention of getting to Henneth Annun. But all things considered, if I had to bet, I'd say 3 to 1 that Henneth Annun is in.

Speaking of the movie guide - the TTT Visual Companion in particular has several mistakes. I don't know if you noticed this. The mistakes are all of the nature of confusing the movie with the book. The only one I can think of off hand is that it says that at the end of FOTR, after Boromir's corpse had been shipped off that A/G/L had a hard decision to make about whether to follow the Uruk-Hai or F&S. WRONG! That's in the book - in the movie Aragorn decided on Amon Hen before the attack. I believe there were two other mistakes of this nature which hurts the credibility a bit of how much to trust these movie guides for 'what's in' and 'what's out.' Wasn't there a mention of Dunharrow somewhere? I think that's a mistake too, but we'll see.

Regarding Faramir - I guess you have to ask yourself if anything's really lost if he doesn't immedietly have the mindset of wanting nothing to do with the Ring. In the book, F&S's fate was very much in question until Faramir let them go. He only pronounced Frodo free in Gondor upon their actual outset from Henneth Annun. Until shortly before then, he was seriously considering taking them back to Minas Tirith with him. The Ring didn't figure into Faramir's thinking much, but he did have a mind to hold them all the same. In the movie (as far as we know) he is the same Faramir as the book once he let's Frodo & Sam go, and there's plenty more Faramir in ROTK.

Why would they make this change? Just another character arc to add like Aragorn? Maybe. I think the real reason is to make an actual story arc out of the TT portion of Frodo & Sam's story. Putting them in peril with Faramir, then having him finally come around actually puts some sort of dramatic arc into the F&S thread whereas without it, there's just a lot of walking... I definitely see the need for this change from that point of view. This change only for Faramir's sake...I don't know, we'll have to see how it plays out.

Talimon

11-11-2002, 10:01 PM

Oh, I can deffinitely see the cinematic worth of doing so. I'm just wondering if it will change Faramirs charachter in too great a way. I guess the fine point here will be whether he chooses to take Frodo back after he learns of the ring, or before. If before I see your point completely. If after, we'll have to see. I can deffinitely see the expression on Faramirs face after seeing what kind of destruction the ring is having on Frodo/Gollum; it could be a very powerful scene, and make Faramir more believeable. The truth is, even in Henneth Anun he hesitates for a moment. It will all depend on the execution, I guess.