Elrond's fault?

[Maeglin]

"I could not say," said Elrond, " but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hole in the mountains of old. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war."

does anyone think that maybe those last words stuck in Balin's mind? Maybe thats what made him decide to try to reinhabit Moria even against all that danger. And if so, can Elrond be blamed for doing it, I mean, he knows that dwarves love treasure and that Moria was more or less the Capital of their world, it was their pride and joy city, so wouldn't he be smart enough not to say that in front of the dwarves, knowing as he did their love and lust for treasure? I think Elrond knew the danger that was lurking in there still, so can he be blamed for Balin's death, along with the other 100 dwarves that went with him?

[YayGollum]

Great idea! Boo for the evil Elrond! Poor Balin! Even though he was a more popular Dwarf! :rolleyes: But no, if those words stuck in his mind so much, I think Balin would have gone earlier. I don't know. I think that he just went because he got bored of peace in the Lonely Mountain. Wanted some adventure again.

[Anárion]

Hmm.....you know, thats a good point.
But he couldn't of gone ealier b/c of all the goblins there.
Not until The Battle of the Five Armies (which is, besides The Last Alliance of Men and Elves) my favorite battle, was Moria emptyed of nearly all the Orcs.
So, he could have gone ealier, but he wanted to stay with his friends. (and plus he was needed to carry around Bombar;) )
But I think all Dwarves knew of Durin's Bane, and it was a risk he was willing to take to get the treasure.

[Maeglin]

Yeah I wouldn't have gotten bored underneath that mountain too, I don't blame him for leaving.:p

[Carantalath]

I always that that Balin went to Moria to be the lord of it. I mean, after the Battle of the Five Armies, he would have been the lord of the Lonely Mountain. But then Dain was lord of that, I forget why. I always thought that Balin wanted to be in charge.

I agree though about him wanting adventure and the treasure. He probably went for those reasons too.

[Anárion]

Well, Dain took Erebor and the Iron Hills for himself becauses hes just a greedy son of a...uhh....hmm....seem to have lost my thought....
Anyway, I dont think Balin was of royal blood Throin was supposed to be king, but he died, as did Fili and Kili, who were also of royal blood(in an indirect way).
So Im thinking there would be some fighting on who would be king...
Dont you?

[Maeglin]

yeah there probably would be some fighting, the dwarves were all greedy and wanted power, but they also respected those of royal blood and let them rule, Balin was sent there on Dain's request I think, or maybe it was that Dain advised him against it, but whatever.

[YayGollum]

Woah! There wasn't any fighting about who'd be in charge of the Lonely Mountain! Dain was definitely next in line, everybody knew it, and nobody challenged him. Yikes!

[Maeglin]

I know there wasn't any fighting, but what I'm saying is if Balin wanted to rule there would have been, anyway I was just trying to clear it up for Anarion.

[YayGollum]

Right. If Balin wanted to rule. He obviously didn't want to rule the Lonely Mountain. Which is why he went to Moria. Okay. Never mind. You got it. *runs away* Evil Elrond! :D

[Maeglin]

yep gollum, elrond is evil, and I bet when he sent Gimli away with the fellowship he though he would die and thought to himself "good, one less dwarf in the world", I guess he really does hate dwarfs.:D

[YayGollum]

Yep. A very evil thing. He was just another superficial elf. The elves separated themselves in the very beginning by looks! When they first met Dwarves, they gave them the name Naugrim, which means Stunted People! Isn't that evil? Poor dudes! They helped the elves make all kinds of nice stuffs, but they always thought they were better for some reason! oh well. I'd love to see Elrond's face when Legolas showed up with Gimli over that stinky place that only elves are supposed to go! :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Hmmm... just wanted to come on in as it doesn't seem like anyone has answered this question yet.... I do not think that Elrond had anything to do with Balin's going to Moria - good observation, though! Simply because all the dwarves knew very well about all of the treasure and the history of the Mines of Moria. None of them could forget it. It is completely in the question for Balin to go to the Mines without any outside influence.

[Anárion]

Hmmm....that gets me thinking.......
Elves ARE evil.
A bunch of hungry weary Dwarves come to a little camp site and the Elves run away.....3 times.
Then they capture the Dwarves and only will release them from prison if they pay lots and lots of gold....
Evil evil evil.....
Gaaah.....*shakes head* Im beginning to sound like gollum.....

[Maeglin]

I'm starting to sound like gollum too, calling the elves evil, and look at my name, I'm an elf!:eek:

[Anárion]

Originally posted by Glorfindel1187
I'm starting to sound like gollum too, calling the elves evil, and look at my name, I'm an elf!:eek:

Lol then you must be evil!!!
I mean....uhh....I didnt say evil again.....
*sighs* Pretty soon Anárion will beginning talking in third person too....
Its Anárion's kingdom....Its Anárion's kingdom....Its....
ARRRRGHHHHH!!!!!!
Is there a doctor in the house?

[YayGollum]

Yeah, I did kind of notice that you weren't defending your own kind. Yay me for getting people to turn on themselves! :rolleyes: Also, Ack! I did answer the question, Nenya! oh well.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Has anyone ever told you, Yay, that they really appreciate your sense of humor? I sure do! You make me laugh all the time. :)

But anyway, back to topic, I didn't agree with your answer, so I posted my own. *laughs evily*

[YayGollum]

Yes, people have told me that. :D That's what I'm here for! To make people happy! And sure, to defend the Little Guy. Anyways, got it. You didn't like my answer, so you gave your own. And decided to say that I hadn't even said anything on topic! :rolleyes: oh well.

[Nenya Evenstar]

And decided to say that I hadn't even said anything on topic! oh well.

lol! Sorry, didn't mean to do that. I didn't read the past posts through all that carefully the first time and came up with that conclusion. I will be more careful next time!

[YayGollum]

Don't even worry about it. Poor Smeagol. He's used to being ignored. *sniff* :rolleyes:

Oh, yeah. Boo Elrond! :D

[ltas]

yep gollum, elrond is evil, and I bet when he sent Gimli away with the fellowship he though he would die and thought to himself "good, one less dwarf in the world",
:D And the entire way he treated the fellowship anyway!! Looking for help, they all come to Rivendell from distant lands, Boromir actually walks all the way there... "Nope. Sorry. Too dangerous. Can't help you. You'll just have to deal with this by yourself. You know what could actually solve your problem? Walk together through Wild Lands straight to Mordor!"
They should have named the first film "It's all Elrond's fault!" :D

And other elves in Elrond's house are really nasty, too! Think of Thorin and Co and their arrival to Rivendell - it's just SO funny to make fun of little old men with long beards!!

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by ltas
And other elves in Elrond's house are really nasty, too! Think of Thorin and Co and their arrival to Rivendell - it's just SO funny to make fun of little old men with long beards!!

Considering the age of most Elves, I think they made yokes about children with beards.:p
And I think Balin knew all too well about the treasures of Moria, and needed no Elven lord to remind him of that.

[ltas]

Originally posted by DGoeij
Considering the age of most Elves, I think they made yokes about children with beards.:p
Picking on children, that's even more evil!!! Elves are bullies as well!

[Theoden]

Come now, everyone, let's not forget who Mr. Elrond was and that he was trying to be wise about the matter. It was not that he wanted the fellowship to have to walk to Mordor just for the fun of it. He knew that should the Ring stay in Rivendell, eventually Souron would destroy it and seize it, or he would be tempted to use it and we all know what would have happened if he had done that. I think he knew it too, and knew that the temptation was too great. That is what I think.

-me

[DGoeij]

Theoden, have you read the first post of this thread? We were 'discussing' a remark by Elrond in the Hobbit, about Moria.:confused:

[Theoden]

oh... sorry, my bad:eek: :(

[Maeglin]

thats quite alright and understandable, because someone mentioned something about the fellowship earlier, so no harm has been done.;)

[DGoeij]

Absolutely no harm done. I was just confused by the serious post about Elrond towards the Fellowship in this thread. I wondered if I missed something, but it wasn't there when I reviewed the thread. Mistakes happen, you just proved you're human.:)

[Theoden]

Now that I know what this thread is about, I can post and not look like an idiot. (Wormtongue told me to do it:D)
Well, I would have to say that Elrond being who he is and knowing as much as he knows, that he knew about the Belrog or at least that there was something lurking in Moria that was from the days of Morgoth. But Balin was not a pupit, nor was he stupid, so it would only be fair to say that though Elrond may have placed the temptation in front of him, balin made a choice out of free will. And greed.

-me

[Mrs. Maggott]

After the Battle of the Five Armies, we are told that the orcs and goblins were greatly diminished in the Misty Mountains. Doubtless, Balin (who might have been satisfied in the Lonely Mountain had Thorin survived) began to consider the possiblity of reinhabiting Moria. It was probably just a little crowded in TLM and the Iron Hills Kingdom was already "taken" as it were, so Moria seemed to be the best place to "set up on one's own".

Furthermore, it was doubtless a bitter blow to the dwarves to have been driven from their premier kingdom in Middle Earth and retaking it - now that the Necromancer (Sauron) had been "defeated" (yeah, sure!) and the orc numbers seriously reduced, appeared both reasonable and possible. But, as Gandalf noted, it was too soon....too soon.....:(