Ost-in-Edhil Vs Tolkienologists

[Nóm]

This debate is only open to the 8 members of the teams listed bellow. This topic is not to be discussed elsewhere in the forum while the debate lasts.
...but it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.

For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior's pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own.

Was the Beauty of Lúthien enough to keep the Sons away?

Ost-in-Edhil:
Ancalagon
Arvedui
Rangerdave
Tar-Elenion
Tolkienologists:
Ceorl
gate7ole filling in for Grond
Maedhros
Sting

Since this debate takes place in the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, the Tolkienologists will choose their side.
Enjoy...

[Ancalagon]

Thank-you Confusticated for setting an extremely interesting question. I would like to welcome the team from The Guild of Tolkienologists to this debate and await their selection with interest.

Good luck to all;)

[Ancalagon]

Just a quick question for you Confusticated;

Depending on which side one team takes in this debate, does the beauty of Luthien include the enhancement of the Sil as valid/invalid in their arguement, or is it solely the 'beauty' of Luthien alone that stays the Sons?

I ask this because if one side chooses to argue for the 'beauty', then if they use the arguement of the Silmarillion as an enhancement, the other team could easily cry foul. Can you clarify this with regards the question?

[Nóm]

In the question Luthien's beauty includes the enhancement by the Silmaril.

[Khamul]

The Guild of Tolkienologists welcome the oppurtunity to debate Ost-in-Edhil. Our stance is against the topic, saying that the beauty of Luthien was not enough to sway the measures of the sons of Feanor. It was in fact Luthien's doom to not be slain by the cruel hands of her kindred.

From the Silmarillion
Doom fell upon her, and she loved him.

And in his fate Lúthien was caught.

From the shadow of death you can no longer save Lúthien, for by her love she is now subject to it.

But if you will not deny your doom, then either Lúthien, being forsaken, bust assuredly die alone
but it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.

There doom was intertwined, the Valar had given them a time of peace, tranquility. It was not the beauty, but instead it was the mercy of Eru, and the Valar who by giving Luthien and Beren their second chance, showed their mercy.
In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight

A foreshadowing of the protection they would recieve from the Valar. He was never to fight another battle, and with any possible attack by the Sons, this prophecy would be broken.

The Silmaril was not the aspect that would possibly keep the sons away, in fact that would have brought the sons to the land, caring naught that they would slay their former kindred in doing this. Instead, as previously mentioned, the grace of Eru was granted to them. Beren and Luthien could live in happiness, not lusting for the Silmaril, the seeming cause of the attraction of the sons. They came only when the peace given by the Valar had been lifted, and another kin-slaying occured.

Beren Erchamion and Lúthien Tinúviel had died indeed, and gone where go the race of Men to a fate beyond the world.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Sting
It was in fact Luthien's doom to not be slain by the cruel hands of her kindred.From the Silmarillion
There doom was intertwined, the Valar had given them a time of peace, tranquility. It was not the beauty, but instead it was the mercy of Eru, and the Valar who by giving Luthien and Beren their second chance, showed their mercy.


A second chance by the Valar does not exempt Beren or Luthien from the Oath of Feanor and those bound to it. They were in posession of a Silmarillion which does not exclude them from the fate that weighed heavily on the Sons of Feanor who must carry out their allegiance to the oath. Yet in truth, who of them would dare challenge these heroes of Men and Elves? At what point would they assail the beauty of Luthien to attempt to disgrace her, remove that which both Beren and herself had sacrificed so much to gain? Their deeds were renowned among all those who knew of the evil they had suffered and overcome, cutting the jewel from the Iron Crown of Morgoth himself.
In those days Maedhros son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.
Twice they retrieved the Silmarillion, once from Morgoth and another from the Dwarves, yet fate played no part in that bloody battle. Neither did Lutien sit at ease with the Silmarillion about her. but it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Who among the Sons of Feanor would dare assail this wonder among Elves? Who had pleaded before the Valar and shone with the light of Melian and Valinor? Luthiens beauty was in her power, her esteem, her sorrow and her strength, and none were able to withstand her, even among the Valar and Morgoth himself. The Silmarillion was but a prize that revealed the depth of her beauty and the depth of her sacrifice.

[Rangerdave]

This may seem to be simply a tangent thought, but to my mind the word beauty is the key to understanding the puzzle of Lúthien’s ability to deter the wrath of the sons of Fëanor.

As we all know, Professor Tolkien was to say the least philologically inclined. Knowing this, I would think that an examination of the word beauty is in order. The most common usage of beauty is that of loveliness, but the Oxford English Dictionary definition of beauty also includes Superior and Divine. Both of these synonyms apply to Lúthien, as she was born into a position of superiority and born of a Divine mother.

Given this additional information, the reluctance of the Seven to move against Lúthien is understandable. Granted, Beren and Lúthien’s physical strength would not alone be enough to stay the onslaught of the Sons of Fëanor, but power is measured in more than simple martial ability.

The deeds of Lúthien and Beren were well known throughout Beleriandand well into Eregion. Of all the Men of Middle-Earth and the Elves east of the sea, only Beren and Lúthien had struck an effective blow against Morgoth directly. Any assault against them would be perceived by nearly all the Eldar and Edain as not only an act against Doriath, but as a move in beneficial to Morgoth as well. If the Seven moved to regain the Silmaril, either by force or guile, the wrath of the combined kindred’s would certainly move against them. This more than any perceived right or act of the Valar stayed the hands of the Sons of Fëanor from action. The beauty of Lúthien sprang not only from her physical appearance, but also from her position and parentage. This was further enhanced by her and Beren’s clear “right” to the silmaril by means of conquest and ordeal.

Unfortunately, this power and beauty did not extend to the heir of Thingol. With the passing of Lúthien, many would argue that the original “right” to the jewel reverted back to the descendants of its maker. While any attack on Dior and the restored Doriath would surely be a lamentable tragedy; it would not per se instill the universal condemnation of the Seven that a strike against Lúthien would.


Of course, all this is only a theory, I may be wrong
It wouldn't be the first time

RD

[Maedhros]

A second chance by the Valar does not exempt Beren or Luthien from the Oath of Feanor and those bound to it. They were in posession of a Silmarillion which does not exclude them from the fate that weighed heavily on the Sons of Feanor who must carry out their allegiance to the oath. Yet in truth, who of them would dare challenge these heroes of Men and Elves? At what point would they assail the beauty of Luthien to attempt to disgrace her, remove that which both Beren and herself had sacrificed so much to gain? Their deeds were renowned among all those who knew of the evil they had suffered and overcome, cutting the jewel from the Iron Crown of Morgoth himself.
I would say a Silmaril. Yes, the sons of Fëanor had an Oath, but they also had pride. They, who were princes of the Noldor, rulers of Kingdoms in Beleriand, who had come out of Valinor with the sole purpose of obtaining back the jewels of their father, and they were unable to do so. Yet they were bettered by a female elf and a man. They couldn't assault Beren and Lúthien because it would had shame. As Anc, has pointed out, their deeds were renowed among all those who knew of the evil of Morgoth and to attack such heroes would be counterproductive, because even their own people wouldn't approve such an assault, and it would hinder their possibilities of regaining the other two Silmarils that Morgoth held in his control remember. Nothing to do with beauty whatsoever.
Who among the Sons of Feanor would dare assail this wonder among Elves? Who had pleaded before the Valar and shone with the light of Melian and Valinor? Luthiens beauty was in her power, her esteem, her sorrow and her strength, and none were able to withstand her, even among the Valar and Morgoth himself. The Silmarillion was but a prize that revealed the depth of her beauty and the depth of her sacrifice.
Again, I would say a Silmaril.
From the Published Silmarillion:
'A Silmaril of Fëanor burns again in the woods of Doriath'; and the oath of the sons of Fëanor was waked again from sleep. For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior's pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own.
Notice two things. No elf would dare assault Lúthien because she was a hero of the land. Dior was not a hero and therefore he didn't had the same esteem as her mother and was ripe for attacking and taking the Silmaril away from his grasp.
The deeds of Lúthien and Beren were well known throughout Beleriandand well into Eregion. Of all the Men of Middle-Earth and the Elves east of the sea, only Beren and Lúthien had struck an effective blow against Morgoth directly. Any assault against them would be perceived by nearly all the Eldar and Edain as not only an act against Doriath, but as a move in beneficial to Morgoth as well. If the Seven moved to regain the Silmaril, either by force or guile, the wrath of the combined kindred’s would certainly move against them. This more than any perceived right or act of the Valar stayed the hands of the Sons of Fëanor from action.
Excellent, clear, concise and precise and to the point. As I have said before, they couldn't move against her because she was a hero, her abilites helped obtained the Silmaril from Morgoth, but it was the fact that she and Beren did that was the detterent of the Sons of Fëanor, it was not the fact that they were afraid of facing them in battle. Maedhros and Maglor attempted the impossible in attacking the victorious host of the West after the war of Wrath.
While any attack on Dior and the restored Doriath would surely be a lamentable tragedy; it would not per se instill the universal condemnation of the Seven that a strike against Lúthien would.
Bravo, I say bravo. My point exactly. It was Lúthien status as the hero of the land that made her unassailable. Not her beauty, but her status as the hero.

[Ceorl]

Excellent points from Maedhros and Sting I must say, and some even better ones from the opposing side who appear to be proving our points for us.

Posted by Anc:
Who among the Sons of Feanor would dare assail this wonder among Elves? Who had pleaded before the Valar and shone with the light of Melian and Valinor? Luthiens beauty was in her power, her esteem, her sorrow and her strength, and none were able to withstand her, even among the Valar and Morgoth himself. The Silmarillion was but a prize that revealed the depth of her beauty and the depth of her sacrifice.

The bit I have highlighted in bold, shows exactly how you have undermined your own statements; this is not beauty, but her legend and reputation among the Elves.

'Who among the sons of Feanor would dare to assail this wonder among Elves?'
Quite frankly; the brothers Celegorm and Curufin, they already had, and this shows that they were quite prepared to attack Luthien, and indeed they did after she escaped from Nargothrond.

Luthiens beauty was in her power, her esteem, her sorrow and her strength...

I have to agree with that, but how much of that didn't she have before the whole Morgoth Silmaril adventure? Admitted; she was enhanced by the Silmaril, however the brothers had already shown that they would attack Luthien, and that they would do anything to recover the Silmaril, so surely the two beauties together would merely heighten the desirability of assaulting them. What I am saying is that, before the Thangorodrim, Luthien had all the qualities as she had afterwards, save one(the Silmaril) which would only make her more desirable anyway.

The Silmaril was but a prize that revealed the depth of her beauty and the depth of her sacrifice.

I quite agree, which links up with what I said just above; this only makes attacking her more desirable.

With all this evidence I think it can be clearly shown that whatever the reason for them refraining from an assault upon Tol Galen; it was not because of her beauty, and that is all that our side of the debate has to prove.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It was Lúthien status as the hero of the land that made her unassailable.

If beauty were only considered a physical trait describing attractiveness or appearance, then I would be inclined to agree with you. But as I so pitifully tried to relate earlier, beauty is so very much more. As the old adage goes, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” In this instance, this is not only true, but also vital to deterring the wrath of the sons of Fëanor.

You see my friends, beauty is not a simple, relative scale of physical loveliness, but also a perceived trait asscribed to an individual by others. Beauty is dependent on both the observer and the observed. Beauty is, quite simply the sum of the traits inherent to the individual coupled with the perceived traits that others ascribe to the individual. In short, for something to be beautiful, it must first be beautiful in itself as well as perceived as beautiful by others. Also, as stated above, beautiful is synonymous with superiority, divinity and glorious. Therefore, Lúthien’s beauty was the sum of her superiority, divinity and glory along with the perception of these selfsame traits by others.

As Maedhros so elegantly stated, it was Lúthien’s status as a hero against Morgoth that afforded her and her husband protection against the Seven. A wonderful statement that I feel confident that none here could counter. But given the fact that beauty must be perceived, does this not mean that Lúthien’s status is but a facet of her beauty?
Coerl has graced us with this wonderful quote “Lúthien’s beauty was in her power, her esteem…” Note the use of the word esteem for this raises a rather interesting point. \Es*teem"\, n. 1. Estimation; opinion of merit or value; hence, valuation; reckoning; price. Esteem is not an inherent trait, it must be granted by others. Or to put it another way, the estimation of something or someone determines their status. Therefore, if Coerl’s quote stating that Lúthien’s beauty was in her esteem, and esteem determines status, then Lúthien’s status must be a fundamental component of her beauty. So, if Lúthien’s status is in fact a component of her beauty, and Maehdros’ is correct in stating that it was her status that made her unassailable: one must therefore reason that if status is a facet of beauty, then beauty made Lúthien unassailable. QED




Now then
Wasn’t that fun?

RD

Please disregard the "last edited" message. I assure you, this was only to correct my deviant spellings.
RD

[Ceorl]

I have just got home, and had no new ideas about points until I viewed the progress of the debate and found RangerDave's ludicrous statements;

If you can claim that all these things are part of her beauty then where does it stop? By your reasoning absolutely everything about Luthien is part of her beauty.

What does our poor side have left to debate on??

Throw me a bone to chew here!!

If we use your definition of beauty, then all we can possiblt try prove is that the sons of Feanor didn't attack Luthien because:
a) They didn'y know where she was
b) They had suffered a temporary memory lapse and had forgotten all about the Silmarils or
c) They had gone insane

(Ok not quite that restricted, but you get my point)

Your definition of beauty has made the entire debate an altruism. Now no debates are ever intended to be an altruism, because there is just nothing to debate about. This is like debating whether or not Aragorn actually was the heir of Isildur. (An altruism is an statement that is true beyond reasonable doubt(there is still a chance that it is false but that chance is very slim))

I am 100% certain that the initial question was not intended to be an altruism.

Sorry about the rant, the post just seemed rudiculous to me and I needed to get that off my chest.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Ceorl
I have just got home, and had no new ideas about points until I viewed the progress of the debate and found RangerDave's ludicrous statements;

If you can claim that all these things are part of her beauty then where does it stop? By your reasoning absolutely everything about Luthien is part of her beauty.

What does our poor side have left to debate on??

Surely not as ludicrous as using 'doom' as a basis for your arguement? If you are reasoning that everything surrounding Luthien and Beren was pre-determined by the influence of the Valar, then is there any point in carrying on? However, it seems you have moved on from 'doom' and lumbered into heroism (courtesy of myself, throwing you a much-needed bone) as the Sons reason for not carrying out their oath.

However, let us focus firmly on 'doom' which Sting vaguely tried to sustain as a basis for his opening arguement. I find it odd that you so conveniently disregarded Luthiens choice following her pleading to the Valar;
These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, land subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song. In other words; no protection by the Valar if she would not live within the confines of Valinor. Let us remember the Oath of Feanor and his Sons; Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession. I ask you; does this oath seem empty to you? Is this an empty threat that allows one rule for most, yet another for Beren and Luthien? I wonder what you might try to use an an arguement for 'doom' when considering Mandos response to this Oath? Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever. Sorry, but this is not substantial enough to justify their reasons for not attacking Beren and Luthien. This doom speaks of their pursuit of the Silmarils and the fact that it would not come to fruition. That every attempt to gain them would be thwarted and that the Silmarils would not come to them. Yet with Beren and Luthien, they chose not to assail them. Not because Beren and Luthien were protected by the Valar or the Doom of Mandos, far from it, we already know that Luthiens choice had made protection from the Valar a non-starter. So what then? For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her but it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light. Doom played no part in this story, simply the fact that Luthien was 'untouchable' by her beauty and glory.

Ceorl; Sorry about the rant, the post just seemed rudiculous to me and I needed to get that off my chest. Were you talking about your own post there? I wasn't sure, I got lost somewhere around (An altruism is an statement that is true beyond reasonable doubt(there is still a chance that it is false but that chance is very slim)) Never a truer word said, or is that a truism?

[Maedhros]

As Maedhros so elegantly stated, it was Lúthien’s status as a hero against Morgoth that afforded her and her husband protection against the Seven. A wonderful statement that I feel confident that none here could counter. But given the fact that beauty must be perceived, does this not mean that Lúthien’s status is but a facet of her beauty?
Thanks RD, but it was in fact Lúthien's abilities as a whole that helped her and Beren take a Silmaril of Morgoth. I disagree with the fact that everything about Lúthien is her beauty. She had compassion, care and was a great singer. These abilities I would not attribute to her beauty.
Sorry, but this is not substantial enough to justify their reasons for not attacking Beren and Luthien. This doom speaks of their pursuit of the Silmarils and the fact that it would not come to fruition. That every attempt to gain them would be thwarted and that the Silmarils would not come to them. Yet with Beren and Luthien, they chose not to assail them. Not because Beren and Luthien were protected by the Valar or the Doom of Mandos, far from it, we already know that Luthiens choice had made protection from the Valar a non-starter. So what then?
Shame. Plain and simple. You have the Sons of Fëanor, princes of the Noldor, who had come out of Aman to pursue Morgoth to regain the Silmarils, and yet they were bested by an elf and a man. Lúthien and Beren became heroes for the Elves in Beleriand. To attack them would have been counterproductive. Their own people wouldn't approve such a thing.
The topic is:
Was the Beauty of Lúthien enough to keep the Sons away?
simply the fact that Luthien was 'untouchable' by her beauty and glory.
Wow, beauty and glory are not synonims. They are two different things. Part of her glory was that she with Beren had retrieved a silmaril from Morgoth. Her beauty helped in that confrontation, but the glory that she obtained from that was not part of her beauty. The glory that she and Beren obtained was because they did the impossible, and became heroes in Beleriand, and that is why the Seven wouldn't dare assault them.

[Ancalagon]

'Shame, Doom, Heroism!' Why not start from A in the dictionary and look for every alternative to her striking beauty with the Silmarillion cast around her neck? Let's be clear about the potency of this combination; But the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end; for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands. There is no shame in not attempting to remove the jewel from one who obviously deserves it more than they. None were so beautiful as Luthien with the Silmaril upon her breast. The Sons of Feanor knew this better than any and yes it was enough to stay them from even sending a messenger to Luthien asking for it back. Is that not somewhat at odds with the oath;
vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

[Tar-Elenion]

"And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!"
"She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyomd enduring, terrible and worshipful."
LotR, Mirror of Galadriel

And that is merely Galadriel in her beauty, consider now Luthien's enhanced by the power of a Silmaril.

[Maedhros]

'Shame, Doom, Heroism!' Why not start from A in the dictionary and look for every alternative to her striking beauty with the Silmarillion cast around her neck? Let's be clear about the potency of this combination;
????????????????????????. Shame is not a synonym for beauty last time i checked.
There is no shame in not attempting to remove the jewel from one who obviously deserves it more than they. None were so beautiful as Luthien with the Silmaril upon her breast. The Sons of Feanor knew this better than any and yes it was enough to stay them from even sending a messenger to Luthien asking for it back.
Yet, there is shame that the great Maedhros the first and noblest son of the first and noblest prince of the Noldor. He was indeed so powerful that only his great grace could temper the strength of his step, the same that had done deeds of surpassing valour, yet he and his brothers were bested by a female elf (nissi) and a man. They had done what the Seven with their armies couldn't. Beren and Lúthien had become heroes of Beleriand.
And that is merely Galadriel in her beauty, consider now Luthien's enhanced by the power of a Silmaril.
Good point, but as far as I know the only brothers that saw Lúthien were Celegorn and Curufin, and that was without the Silmaril.
How could they be deterred by something that they haven't seen themselves. It doesn't makes sense.:confused:
To attack them would be counterproductive, there were other silmarils missing too.

[Rangerdave]

Original QuestionWas the Beauty of Lúthien enough to keep the Sons away?
Supporting evidence supplied by Ancalagonsimply the fact that Luthien was 'untouchable' by her beauty and glory.
Counter argument supplied by MaedhrosIt was Lúthien status as the hero of the land that made her unassailable.
Direct quote from SilmarilionI seems that I was in error regarding the source of this quote. This is NOT a direct quote from the Silmarillion but rather an original posting by Ancalagon. My appologies to all parties involved. DaveLuthiens beauty was in her power, her esteem, her sorrow and her strength, and none were able to withstand her, even among the Valar and Morgoth himself.
Definition of Esteem supplied by RD\Es*teem"\, n. 1. Estimation; opinion of merit or value; hence, valuation; reckoning; price.
Esteem is not an inherent trait, it must be granted by others. Or to put it another way, the estimation of something or someone determines their status.

Hey, I think I see a pattern here.

Conclusion derived from the above statements.
paraphrased to save space
If Lúthien’s beauty was in her esteem, and esteem determines status, then Lúthien’s status must be a fundamental component of her beauty.

If Lúthien’s status is in fact a component of her beauty, and her status that made her unassailable: then beauty made Lúthien unassailable. QED

There, that boils all the dross and purple prose out of my argument. This is not an altruism, simply the result of the line of reasoning.

RD

[Ceorl]

You are forgetting that we need not prove a reason for the Sons not attacking Beren and Luthien; we need only prove that they did not, not attack her because of her beauty.

Maedhros made an excellent point;
Good point, but as far as I know the only brothers that saw Lúthien were Celegorn and Curufin, and that was without the Silmaril.

You say that Luthiens beauty, aye even with RangerDave adding esteem into her beauty; was enough to prevent the Sons from assailing her, when only two of the sons had ever seen her; and they had not had any thoughts of "Oh, She is so beautiful; let me leave her alone, for I dare not touch this vision." No they kidnapped her, and then later tried to kill her.

Someone you have once attempted to kill who has now done a few things, and , yes, is a hero but is wearing something you consider to be yours; is not beyond a simple message requesting the return of ones own.

There is no shame in not attempting to remove the jewel from one who obviously deserves it more than they. None were so beautiful as Luthien with the Silmaril upon her breast. The Sons of Feanor knew this better than any and yes it was enough to stay them from even sending a messenger to Luthien asking for it back. Is that not somewhat at odds with the oath;

What is this? Deserves it more than they? Of all the dwellers in Ea, who deserves the silmarils the most? Surely the Valar of whose light the Silmarils were first created, from who Feanor learned the craftmanship required to make these holy jewels, surely the Valar deserve the
silmarils beyond anyone else; yet the Sons of Feanor would not permit, even them to hold the jewel without an attempt to recapture it. And if esteem is part of beauty then look to the esteem of the Valar: They created the world, what higher esteem can there be?

[Rangerdave]

Why would they have to have seen her to be detered?

I don't mean to kick a dead horse, but if you conceed (as you seem to do) that her esteem is a facet of her beauty, then vision becomes irrelevant. Cetainly the Sons of Feanor have ears, or some other such means of gathering news.

I have never actually seen the Mona Lisa, but I am aware of the high esteem it is afforded in the art community.

RD

[Ceorl]

Hmm I do not remeber making that post and if I did, then I will admit it was in error, however it proves nothing;

In the SIlmarillion it is stated(sorry no quotes I dont have my books with me) that the Eldar faded in strength of body and mind from the day they left Kuivienen. There beauty however never faded as it grew and developed with the passing of time and sorrow and grief.

So it was with Luthien; her griefs and sorrows, and esteem and renown and the Silmaril increased her beauty.

It was not the beauty that prevented the Sons from attacking her but the fame and renown. These increased her beauty but were not an inherent part of it, and thus these things keeping away the Sons cannot be said to be the same as the beauty that they enhanced.

Sorry about the spelling I had to rush

[Arvedui]

This whole matter is obvious. If one reads this from the Silmarillion:
... for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it (the Silmaril) was too bright for mortal lands.
and combine it with this:
For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her;..
it seems quite clear that the beauty of Lúthien by itselfwas enough to keep the sons of Fëanor away, despite the oath they had sworn:
An oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not (...) vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.
Considering these words, and the kinslaying already commited, no powers or esteem that Lúthien had, should keep the Sons from re-taking the Silmaril from her, even by force.
Nor is there anywhere in this oath an excuse for anyone who have conquered one or all of the Silmarils from the hands of a greater foe (Morgoth).

Remember also that Celegorm and Curufin had already met Lúthien:
He [Huan] brought her to Celegorm, and Lúthien, learning that he was a prince of the Noldor and a foe of Morgoth, was glad; and she decleared herself, casting aside her cloak. So great was her sudden beauty revealed beneath the sun that Celegorm became enamoured of her,...

Now, this was befor she wore the Silmaril. Celegorm and Curufin knew of her beauty, and they knew of hte beauty of the Silmarils. Obviously they had enough wits to understand that the beauty of Lúthien would be far to great for any of them to conquer, and so decided that they were unable to touch her.

Nowhere in the text is there any description on how they sons of Fëanor had any fear for what other qualities Lúthien had.

[Maedhros]

There, that boils all the dross and purple prose out of my argument. This is not an altruism, simply the result of the line of reasoning.
So?
it seems quite clear that the beauty of Lúthien by itselfwas enough to keep the sons of Fëanor away, despite the oath they had sworn:
Really, and the fact of the matter that she was the hero of the land didn't in any way prevent an attack from them. The fact that they were ashamed by being bettered by a female elf and a man.
Obviously they had enough wits to understand that the beauty of Lúthien would be far to great for any of them to conquer, and so decided that they were unable to touch her.
I would say that there were 3 silmarils in total. Morgoth still held two of them. It would have been counterproductive to try and attack the hero of Beleriand, a battle in which they would have had no support whatsoever. Instead they did the right thing, they waited for their son Dior, who had not the same status and assaulted him. Althought this action was seen as bad, the other one would have spelled disaster for them.
Considering these words, and the kinslaying already commited, no powers or esteem that Lúthien had, should keep the Sons from re-taking the Silmaril from her, even by force.
You have just contradicted, everything that RD has said.

[Rangerdave]

Originally posted by Maedhros
You have just contradicted, everything that RD has said.

Has he? I would think not.

quote: An oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not (...) vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

Considering these words, and the kinslaying already commited, no powers or esteem that Lúthien had, should keep the Sons from re-taking the Silmaril from her, even by force.

Arvedui correctly makes the assertion that the Oath of Fëanor should have prompted his sons to attack Lúthien no matter what the consequences or risk. I don’t think anyone will argue with that. But they did not attack. But something has stayed their hands.

I assert that the force that postponed their wrath was the Beauty of Lúthien, you seem to put more emphasis on the conscience and shame of the Seven. The question that arises is when, if ever, has a sense of shame ever been a major concern of Fëanor’s heirs? Certainly not at Alqualondë or in Drengist at the landing of the stolen ships on the mouth of the firth.

While the flaws of the seven did not, thankfully, extend to all of the Noldo; the character makeup of the Sons of Fëanor show no shame, pity, compassion, or any other mental processes other than simple greed, lust and rage. In fact, if I remember correctly, it was not until the last two surviving heirs had been rejected and burned by the very silmarils they desired, did they show any signs of shame or remorse for any of their actions.

So what did prevent the attack on Lúthien to reclaim the prize? I may be wrong in my assertion that her beauty was the deciding factor, but the Seven being deterred by shame to me seems improbable at best.

RD

[Ceorl]

Now is probably a good time to condense our argument, so that we do not all end up debating topics that are (nearly) agreed upon by both parties.

What you have said is that, the sons of Feanor, hearing of the beauty of Luthien (for we agree that she had not been seen after the episode with Morgoth), declined to attack her.

Against that we have set the fact that she was already kidnapped and attacked by the sons of Feanor, before the incident, showing that her beauty was not then nearly enought to deter the Sons.

To this you have added that, as was originally stated by Anc(not me RD), Luthiens beauty was enhanced by her power and reputation among the people of Beleriand. And it was this new found beauty that deterred the SoF.

But I say to you; beauty and renown are different things, her renown may have added to her beauty, but it was still her renown, and not a part of her beauty that could not be seperated.

Then surely, I implore you to see the obvious logic, her renown and fame is what was rumoured throughout Beleriand, and as the SoF had not seen her, it was this that formed the basis of their decision to not assail the hero of Elves and Men.

Besides, you are leaving now Beren out of the equation; in the tales of Beleriand, he was placed beside her in all the deeds pertaining to the acquisition of the Silmaril, surely his renown would be part and parcel of the factor preventing the SoF from attacking them.

In short: The SoF heard not a rumour of the beauty of Luthien, but a rumour of her deeds. Doubtless her renown added to her beauty but they had seen nought of it. It was proven above that they were not afraid to assault her in the state of beauty as they knew her.

Therefore the only thing that changed between the times of their assault on her; and their refusal not to assault her, was that her renown had increased.

I leave you to draw the obvious lines of conclusion.

I once again apologise for the lack of quotes, however I am at school and have not the liberty of being able to refer to books, nor the time to soft through the multitude of posts in this debate.

[Arvedui]

I'm afraid that you leave one obvious detail out of your reasoning here, Ceorl. In addition to whatever renown she might have added since she met C&C, she now also wears a Silmaril. Now concider the fact that she, without any Silmaril, already at that time was known as most beautiful among the firstborn. I think we all can agree on that.
What effect would the Silmaril have on her beauty? I have already quoted "The Silmarillion." I don't think I have to repeat myself here, do I?
No place else in the book is there any evidence that the Sons have stopped short of fighting against anyone who might stop them from fullfilling their oath, whatever their renown might be. On the contrary: They fought everyone, everywhere.
What then made Lúthien different? Her beauty!

I appologize for my misuse of the word esteem in my first posting. My native tongue is not English, and the word I intended to use was "renown." Still, RD made right what I linguistically messed up.

[gate7ole]

I'm substituting Grond who couldn't participate

from Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil
But Maedhros answered that if they returned to Aman but the favour of the Valar were
withheld from them, then their oath would still remain, but its fulfilment be beyond all hope; and he
said: 'Who can tell to what dreadful doom we shall come, if we disobey the Powers in their own
land, or purpose ever to bring war again into their holy realm?'

So, the remaining sons would try to fulfill the oath in Aman, disobeying even the Powers. Comparing it with the beauty of Luthien, I find the first a far greater obstacle. They were determined to go to extremes because of this terrible oath and I don’t think that any beauty by anyone would deter them. The beauty of the Valar would not, how do you think Luthien’s beauty would?
Also much is told about the Silmaril enhancing Luthien’s beauty and constraining the Seven. We shouldn’t forget that that was their target, the Silmaril. They considered that it was theirs. That they had the right to possess it. Again we read:
And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him. But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath.

Not until the end did they realize that the had no right over the three gems.

No, we must seek elsewhere the motive of the Seven. And it is said excellently by Maedhros that it was counterproductive to attack Luthien. Their main purpose was to obtain ALL the Silmarills. By attacking openly the renowned couple, even if they succeeded, the disapproval even within their folk would be too great and they would never again be able to attack Morgoth for the two other stones. When the Sil would pass to Dior, this dissaproval would be far less and they would have their chance to attack him, as they did. Finally I have no doubt that if Luthien’s Sil was the only left, they would definitely attack her despite any beauty or status.

[Tar-Elenion]

In an enlargement to a passage in The Quenta (HoME4) JRRT wrote:

For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them...
It says "no Elf would dare assail her", not just 'no Elf that had seen her'.

And what was the effect of Luthien wearing that peerless gem:

Beren took the Nauglafring, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
See HoME4, The Quenta, chapter 14

[Ceorl]

Tar-Elenion; to begin with, I wonder why you are pulling archaic quotes from the Quenta, when a newer and more revised form exists in the Published Silmarillion, and if you do not like that too much, in HoME 10 and 11.

I'm afraid that you leave one obvious detail out of your reasoning here, Ceorl. In addition to whatever renown she might have added since she met C&C, she now also wears a Silmaril. Now concider the fact that she, without any Silmaril, already at that time was known as most beautiful among the firstborn. I think we all can agree on that.

How could I have left the Silmaril out of my calculations? The whole thing revolves around the Silmaril and the effects finding and bearing it had on her.

The SoF no doubt knew that Luthien bore the Silmaril, and they probably drew the conclusion that she was now very pretty, but their oath was concerned with regaining the Silmaril.

The SoF it can be shown were not at all hesitant to destroy things of great beauty;

And Feanor caused flame to be set in them, and so ended the fairest vessels that ever existed in Arda.
Quote not exact.

Maedhros alone did not partake in the burning at Losgar, which shows quite clearly that the SoF did not mind destroying invaluable things.

I will use a metaphor already supplied by the opposition; take the Mona Lisa; ye have all heard of its beauty and (whatever it is that the Mona Lisa is known for), so I assume you all know that it is beautiful and wonderful; however you say you have not seen it yourself; so how then will you be able to measure its beauty and worth to your own scale? Second hand information is important if you cannot see it yourself, however there is no ways that you can draw your own conclusion from it; and I that the determined and desperate SoF would be deterred by a rumour of her beauty; a ludicrous idea.

No place else in the book is there any evidence that the Sons have stopped short of fighting against anyone who might stop them from fullfilling their oath, whatever their renown might be. On the contrary: They fought everyone, everywhere.
What then made Lúthien different? Her beauty!

What made her different? you must be joking? You meant that as rhetoric, however in this case you leave yourself full open to a complete reply to that question; Who else had passed into Angband, felled Morgoth himself, sent the entire host of Angband into fear, stolen the most prized jewel from the most powerful dweller in Arda, escaped, killed the mightiest wolf ever who was powered by a Silmaril, succesfuly moved Mandos to pity who never before has been so moved, and defeated a host of Dwarves who were returning victorious from the destruction of Doriath.

[Arvedui]

Who else had passed into Angband, felled Morgoth himself, sent the entire host of Angband into fear, stolen the most prized jewel from the most powerful dweller in Arda, escaped, killed the mightiest wolf ever who was powered by a Silmaril, succesfuly moved Mandos to pity who never before has been so moved, and defeated a host of Dwarves who were returning victorious from the destruction of Doriath.
Hm, let's see: First of all, Lúthien did not pass into Angband by herself. As far as i remember, there was someone else there with her: Beren and Huan. The same goes for a couple of the other details you point out. And I don't think Lúthien was present at the slaying of Carcharoth:
Therefore, since daily Carcharoth drew nearer to Menegroth, they prepered the Hunting of the Wolf; of all pursuits of beasts whereof tales tell the most perilous. To that chase went Huand the Hound of Valinor, and Mablung of the Heavy Hand, and Belog Strongbow, and Beren Erchamion, and Thingol King of Doriath. They rode forth in the morning and passed over the River Esgalduin; but Lúthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black.
And I can't seem to recollect that Lúthien took part in the Battle by Sarn Athrad:
Then Beren arose and left Tol Galen, and summoning to him Dior his son they went north to the River Ascar; and with them went many of the Green-elves of Ossiriand.
Maybe not such a great feat considering that the Dwarves had already been through a fierce battle, and was ambushed they were climbing up riverbanks.
Actually, Beren and Lúthien lived quite alone in Tol Galen, and would as such be easy victims for the SoF.
Then Beren and Lúthien went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger; and they passed beyond the River Gelion into Ossiriand, and dwelt there in Tol Galen(...) until all tidings of them ceased. (...) and there was born Dior Aranel the beautiful, who was after known as Dior Eluchíl, which is Thingol's Heir. No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and none saw Beren or Lúthien leave the world, or marked where at last their bodies lay.
And Dior left his parents and went to Menegroth:
Now Dior Thingol's Heir bade farewell to Beren and Lúthien, and departing from Lanthir Lamath with Nimloth his wife he came to Menegroth, and abode there; and with them went their young sons Eluréd and Elurín, and Elwing their daughter.

Finally, I believe it to be close to an insult to comparethe most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar with hand made vessels, no matter if the vessels were the fairest that ever existed i Arda.
It all comes down to this:
For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her;..
By the way, I have seen the Mona Lisa, and it's not all that great.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Ceorl
Tar-Elenion; to begin with, I wonder why you are pulling archaic quotes from the Quenta, when a newer and more revised form exists in the Published Silmarillion, and if you do not like that too much, in HoME 10 and 11.

Really? Prove it.
To begin with HoME 10 does not address this.
The form in The Silmarillion is not a "newer and more revised form" (at least not from JRRT). Chapter 22, The Ruin of Doriath, was extensively edited by CJRT from the extant older accounts and in some parts written by him. The equivalent paragraphs are:
The Silmarillion
but it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
compared to:
The Quenta, HoME4
and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
and
The Silmarillion
But now the rumour ran among the scattered Elves of Beleriand that Dior Thingol's heir wore the Nauglamír, and they said: 'A Silmaril of Fëanor burns again in the woods of Doriath'; and the oath of the sons of Fëanor was waked again from sleep. For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior's pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own.
compared to
The Quenta [note, edited together from the narrative passage and the additional enlargement as indicated in endnote 13 of The Quenta chapter 14]
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own.
The passages from The Silmarillion were drawn directly from the "archaic" passages in the Quenta.
There is no equivalent in HoME 11 as JRRT did not, unfortunately, rewrite and revise The Ruin of Doriath.

[Maedhros]

Has he? I would think not.
I think that this was posted by RD.
If Lúthien’s beauty was in her esteem, and esteem determines status, then Lúthien’s status must be a fundamental component of her beauty.If Lúthien’s status is in fact a component of her beauty, and her status that made her unassailable: then beauty made Lúthien unassailable. QED
Posted by Arvedui
Considering these words, and the kinslaying already commited, no powers or esteem that Lúthien had, should keep the Sons from re-taking the Silmaril from her, even by force.
If Arvedui says that no powers or esteem that Lúthien had, and RD says that beauty was in her esteem, then sorry, but it says that her esteem (beauty) was not the reason that the Seven failed to attack Lúthien with the Sil.
I may be wrong in my assertion that her beauty was the deciding factor, but the Seven being deterred by shame to me seems improbable at best.
The Seven, where led by Maedhros, the first and noblest son of the first and noblest prince of the Noldor. He was indeed so powerful that only his great grace could temper the strength of his step.
From Home 5: Quenta Silmarillion
But Maidros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Eruman, and gave back the goods of Fingolfin that had been borne away in the ships; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Gnomes. To this his brethren did not all in their hearts agree.
I would say it was shame and remember that it was Maedhros who was calling the shots since he was the eldest of the sons and even thought his brothers didn't like his decision, he still made it, and they followed him.
What then made Lúthien different? Her beauty!
The fact that she, an eldar and a man with Huan, made the impossible of getting a silmaril from the Mightiest of the Ainur. That is the difference.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own.
Yet the question is, why wouldn't any elf assault her? The answer is of course, in that she was a hero of the land, and as thus very popular, having the lifetime of man, her time was limited in ME, anyone else who got their silmaril wouldn't be as popular as her.
The point that the other side is missing, is that there were three silmarils, and attacking her to obtain one, would forever deny them the opportunity of acquiring the other too. They would have needed the help of the other elves in such an endeavour and they wouldn't have gotten it. It was counterproductive to do such a thing.
I appologize for my misuse of the word esteem in my first posting. My native tongue is not English,
You are not alone in this debate.:)

[Rangerdave]

Now I know how Socrates’ philosopher felt when he returned to the cave.

I truly believe we are all arguing the same point, but referring to it by different names. One side claims her heroic stature coupled with the power of the regained Silmaril guarded her from assault. The other claims that this stature along with the addition of the jewel are but components that served to enhance the beauty of Lúthien. The only difference between the two sides seems to rest in answering “What is beauty?”

Every philosopher from Aquinas to Voltaire has wrestled with this simple question and none have supplied a satisfactory answer. So in the end we are left to supply our own answers and esthetics.
My conception of beauty is that it must be more than simply visual appearance and physical comeliness. Beauty must transcend from the physical and into the realm of the metaphysical so that all things both inherent and perceived Good are the sum parts of beauty. This must be true for all things: if not, than beauty is reduced to being nothing more than a nice word for fair. Or, to make this pertain to the question at hand: if beauty is simply a physical trait such as eye or hair color, then Lúthien was just a pretty girl with a pretty necklace. A concept I feel does a great disservice to both the author and the reader of her story alike.

To put the analogy another way, consider the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. Arguably, these works are two of the most beautiful stories of the English language. But is this beauty dependent on their physical properties? I would have to say no. One book is basically very much like another. On a solely physical examination, they are merely a collection of black symbols on white pages with perhaps a few doodles to liven up the appearance. The beauty in these masterworks lies in the joining of the power and majesty of the storyteller’s art with the discernment and imagination of the reader’s mind. None of which is dependent on the material attributes of the actual book.

The question of what stayed the hands of the Seven is simply unanswerable. Nowhere in print is the reasoning behind Professor Tolkien’s choice presented, so the best we can do is to come to some plausible conclusions. Arvedui supplies with this statement of fact..."Considering these words, and the kinslaying already committed, no powers or esteem that Lúthien had, should keep the Sons from re-taking the Silmaril from her, even by force." Very much true, no obstacle should have prevented the son’s from fulfilling the oath of the father. Nothing should have stood in their way. But something did.

The fact remains that they were prevented from this fulfillment of oath, and that is of paramount importance. Something about Lúthien forestalled the Princes of the Noldor from the fulfillment of their sworn task. Our job is to determine exactly what that elusive something was. Was it her physical comeliness? Was it her heroic stature? Was it her great renown or the remembrance of past deeds? Was it the love and honour graced upon her by all of the Teleri?

Or was it possibly, just possibly, the union of all these individual facets: all of which combine into a whole greater than the sum of its parts? Was it the amalgamation of all that was and is both intrinsic and ascribed good in Lúthien?
In short, was it not her beauty?



I call for the judges to vote.
RD

[Ceorl]

The passages from The Silmarillion were drawn directly from the "archaic" passages in the Quenta.

True, true; but are they not really the same, is there any information that was added or left out? In truth they are the same statements, written with a very minor change in words, and my point is why would you use these quotes from Home IV, when we have an equivalent form, with updated names, and easier to find and reference in The Sil.

But no matter; it is a petty point, I perhaps should not have brought it up. It has no relevance to our debate, I apologise.

Hm, let's see: First of all, Lúthien did not pass into Angband by herself. As far as i remember, there was someone else there with her: Beren and Huan. The same goes for a couple of the other details you point out. And I don't think Lúthien was present at the slaying of Carcharoth:

Mmm the relevancy of Luthien doing all these things by herself, is only prevalent if it is her beauty that is keeping the SoF away; which is the matter over which we are debating. The fact that she had Beren and (at times) Huan with her, is not relevant, as Beren and Luthien's fame and renown were combined; although we have been talking throughout this debate as though it was Luthien who was not attacked; it was in truth her and Beren. It was their joint fame (and prowess and all other aspects) that stopped the SoF from attacking her. I must admit, I made a mistake when I said that Luthien was at the battle with Carcharoth, and later with the Dwarves; however it carries little bearing as Beren and Luthien were a couple and it was their combined fame. Indeed I would add another factor to their list of deeds and accomplishments; their love was overwhelming, and indeed it would be famous as it was the first occurence of this happening between man and Elf, and whether the SoF saw this as an insult to Elves or a good thing to have happened it strengthens our argument either way.

Or was it possibly, just possibly, the union of all these individual facets: all of which combine into a whole greater than the sum of its parts? Was it the amalgamation of all that was and is both intrinsic and ascribed good in Lúthien?
In short, was it not her beauty?

Luthien's fame is y and her power is a, while her fame is p; now her beauty may indeed equal y + a, however that does not mean that y is now a part of A. Y and a both affect the value of p, but they are still values of their own and can still perform their own purpose; such as deterring the SoF whilst p remains on its own and performs its own purposes. Sorry if I confused anyone, it makes sense to me.

Actually, Beren and Lúthien lived quite alone in Tol Galen, and would as such be easy victims for the SoF.

This has no relevance whatsoever, for it only gives the SoF more reason to assault them, and does not deal with the issue of why they did not.

[Rangerdave]

Just a quick question, is there a set end date for this debate? Or is that left up to the discretion of the guild masters?

Just wondering
Dave

[Ceorl]

Aye, I would like to know that as well, otherwise we will be stuck debating the same points over and over, we are already beginning to lack new ideas I think.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Ceorl
True, true; but are they not really the same, is there any information that was added or left out? In truth they are the same statements, written with a very minor change in words, and my point is why would you use these quotes from Home IV, when we have an equivalent form, with updated names, and easier to find and reference in The Sil.

Because the form used in The Quenta was actually written by JRRT. That in The Silmarillion was edited by his son. The form in The Silmarillion does have words left out from that which JRRT wrote. Thus the Quenta version is more complete.



But no matter; it is a petty point, I perhaps should not have brought it up. It has no relevance to our debate, I apologise.
It is relevant. It answers the question.
"For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought."
Luthien would not be assailed while wearing the Silmaril. What changed about her when she wore the Silmaril?
"...and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor..."
Her beauty and glory increased.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion

"...and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor..."
Her beauty and glory increased.

And let me add to that; what renown does her beauty have in this debate? She who enchanted Beren, denied Daeron, caused Thingol to bring upon himself the Doom of Doriath, captivated Celegorm, smote Sauron, entrapped Morgoth by his evil lust for her and was counted more fair than the Valar as she pleaded before them. All this even before clasping the Jewel of Feanor upon her breast and thus staying the Sons oath; vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

Beautiful, terrible and unassailable she had become, if possible, even moreso than before!

[Maedhros]

Luthien would not be assailed while wearing the Silmaril. What changed about her when she wore the Silmaril?
And my question is, why would anyone assail her after the quest of the Silmaril? If she and Beren lived apart from everyone, why would anyone attack them if they didn't have the silmaril. No one did attack them. At this point, they were heroes of Beleriand, they had defeated Morgoth, they were sung and praised by everyone.
It was only after the "Ruin of Doriath" that Lúthien wore the Silmaril.
Tar Elenion has brought the quote from the Quenta that says:
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own.
I have said from the beginning of this debate that the Sons of Fëanor didn't attacked them because they had shame that they were bettered by a female elf, man and Huan. To Maedhros, they were an inspiration and hope to him.
From Home 5: Nirnaith Arnoediad
But in those days Maidros son of Feanor lifted up his art, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.
What a coincidence, is it not, that it was the same Maedhros that had taken hope because of their deeds. That he personally was moved to such a point as to move into open war against Morgoth. He definitely considered them heroes and he would not, because of both shame and admiration would never ponder the thought of attacking Lúthien who had above all, brought out hope that the defeat of Melkor was possible.
And let me add to that; what renown does her beauty have in this debate?
It is relevant. It answers the question.
Well, if it's so obvious then why RD disagrees with you?
Posted by RD:
The question of what stayed the hands of the Seven is simply unanswerable.
If your evidence is so staggering, then why RD hesitates.
It was Maedhros, the leader of the Fëanorians the one who was most touched by the acts of heroism that Beren, Lúthien and Huan did, and he definitely would not move to attack them with or withouth the silmaril.

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It was Maedhros, the leader of the Fëanorians the one who was most touched by the acts of heroism that Beren, Lúthien and Huan did, and he definitely would not move to attack them with or withouth the silmaril.

That is not what is suggested by:
"But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own."
Maedhros would not even dare to think about attacking Luthien because she was so enhanced by the Silmaril.

[Maedhros]

Maedhros would not even dare to think about attacking Luthien because she was so enhanced by the Silmaril.
Well, didn't Maedhros considered the feat of Beren and Lúthien remarkable and something that gave him hope to make the Union of Maedhros. Shame and respect for their deeds are also in part things that dettered him. But realistically, it would have been counterproductive, because in all there were 3 silmarils not 1, if they attacked them they would actually had no chance in regaining the other 2.
But in those days Maidros son of Feanor lifted up his art, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.
This suggest the admiration and respect I'm talking about.

[Arvedui]

Quote of my earlier statement:
Actually, Beren and Lúthien lived quite alone in Tol Galen, and would as such be easy victims for the SoF.
Quote from Ceorl:
This has no relevance whatsoever, for it only gives the SoF more reason to assault them, and does not deal with the issue of why they did not.
This absolutely has relevance! As you say yourself, it gives the SoF more reason to assault them. Therefore it does deal with the issue of why they did not.
One more from Ceorl:
Indeed I would add another factor to their list of deeds and accomplishments; their love was overwhelming, and indeed it would be famous as it was the first occurence of this happening between man and Elf, and whether the SoF saw this as an insult to Elves or a good thing to have happened it strengthens our argument either way.
Yes! Their love was overwhelming. And wouldn't that also be one more factor to add to Lúthiens beauty? I think so. Even among mortal men and women one can see how people in love grow more and more in beauty.
Quote from Maedhros:
And my question is, why would anyone assail her after the quest of the Silmaril? If she and Beren lived apart from everyone, why would anyone attack them if they didn't have the silmaril.
They actually had the Silmaril. That is why this whole debate is taking place. If they didn't have the Silmaril, noone would have any reason to assail them, exept Melkor.
Keeping in mind all those that the Sons of Fëanor assailed or moved against, and the renown that quite a lot of those carried with them: For once they knew that one of the Silmarils was beyond the reach of Melkor, and quite closer to themselves. I do not believe that they had some sort of a memory-lapse and forgot the oath they swore on forever pursuing anyone who kept eny of the Silmarils from them. As a logical conclution of all this, I'd say that there was something special that kept the Sons from attacking Lúthien. Something that was so special about her that no other being had in the whole Arda. And the beauty of Lúthien was so special it had been sung about in songs.

[Maedhros]

Their love was overwhelming. And wouldn't that also be one more factor to add to Lúthiens beauty? I think so.
Your opinion. I would say that it was their love that made them special to each other and to the world. They were certainly happier because of that.
I do not believe that they had some sort of a memory-lapse and forgot the oath they swore on forever pursuing anyone who kept eny of the Silmarils from them. As a logical conclution of all this, I'd say that there was something special that kept the Sons from attacking Lúthien. Something that was so special about her that no other being had in the whole Arda. And the beauty of Lúthien was so special it had been sung about in songs.
From Home 5: Nirnaith Arnoediad
But in those days Maidros son of Feanor lifted up his art, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.
I would say that it were their deeds that were sung in Beleriand, their acomplishements it were that made them famous in the world and that stature of mythical heroes is what dettered the Seven (Maedhros) for making such an assault. No one here has said anything about memory-lapse.

[Nóm]

This debate will close on Sunday the 13th at 11:00PM GMT

[gate7ole]

I see that this debate has been spent to show whether it was Luthien’s beauty or her status as a hero that discouraged the SoF to attack her and gain the Silmaril. And the opponents seem to avoid contradicting our argument that deals with the core of their indecision to attack Luthien: They had 3 Silmarils to take back, not one. Their strategy should be such that would give them the chances to gain all Sils. If they managed to overcome their hesitations about Luthien’s heroic figure and attack her, the whole race of elves would stand against them, even some of their folk would do so. Maedhros knew it. And he waited until the Sil would pass to Dior.
It is clear from Maedhros and Maglor’s thoughts about their oath after the War of Wrath, that even the Valar couldn’t dissuade them from fulfilling the oath. How then would an elf, even with such a beauty, achieve what the Valar wouldn’t do? I agree that her reputation was an obstacle to them, but –I repeat- if Luthien’s Silmaril was the last one, they wouldn’t be stopped by

[Nóm]

It is past Sunday 13th 11:00PM GMT
There will be a thread started soon with a poll and a list of the 5 judges (not all of them are known yet).