The NEW Fire-Tongue Dragon Debate Bar

[YayGollum]

Doobedoobedoo...anytime you're ready. I see no way I can lose.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya "jumps in." "Give me a second, Yay," she says, "because I won't have very much access to my computer for the next few days. I'm going to be researching in the meantime, however, so don't think I'm idle. Give me a few days, and I'll post." :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, I have studied this enough. Here is my final hypothesis: Things were better in the long run since Sam was there with Frodo. Without Sam, Frodo would have never had the encouragement he needed to make it to and through Mordor. Without Sam many key and important things such as Faramir's knowledge of Frodo's quest, the help of rope in Emyn Muil, and a person to watch against stealing Gollums in the night would never have been possible. Here are some quotes I have found. Forgive me for the length of the quotes, but I feel that they are necessary:
But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours - since it is clear that he & Sam never concealed the precise course of events. Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path. Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer cd. be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different! By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.This paragraph paraphrases the fact that it was not Sam's fault that Smeagol ultimately fell. Instead, it was Smeagol's own self and nature that cause his fall. Sam cannot be blamed.
For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense ) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.
This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222)4 but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some ***** twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.So, even had he repented, Gollum would have ended up in the belly of Mt. Doom. And since the outcome would have been the same no matter the consequences of Gollum's inner debate and since it was NOT Sam's fault that Smeagol fell, I feel I can say with 100% accuracy that Sam was a valuable addition to have around. Without Sam, I do not think Frodo would have made it very far.

[YayGollum]

Ack! You crazy. Those quotes are helping me out, too.

That first one says something about the debate in the slag hole weakening him so that the evil sam's evilness would get to him right before they ran into his good friend Shelob. It says that after the evil sam's evilness, he was lost. There we go. Proof that if the evil sam wasn't around, everything would have turned out better. Without the evil sam being so evil, Smeagol would have been around. Smeagol = good. Gollum = bad. Even though Tolkien has a lot of bad stuff to say about just Smeagol. :rolleyes:

That second quote helps out even more. It says something about repentance being blighted and Shelob's lair is inevitable. That's the evil sam's fault. Wouldn't it have been nicer for them not to have to deal with Shelob? Yeah, I think so.

It says that the evil sam could not have acted differently. So, if you have this dude in your group to save the world who will do something that will make things worse, why do you want him in the group? I'm talking about the evil sam.

It says that the interest would have shifted to Gollum. I say, "Yay! The more Gollum, the better! Crazy Tolkien!" :rolleyes:

It says that Gollum still would have destroyed the Ring. He'd be the hero either way, but this way, he'd be a hero that more people would recognize. What's wrong with that? oh well. I just don't see why people like the evil unnecessary sam.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Those quotes are helping you out? I'm afraid not! These are the quotes you were referring to, and they do not support your past opinion. Look at this part:
By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Smeagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.
So, in other words, it was Gollum's own fault that he remained corrupt. Smeagol was only "temporized" not fixed, and thus could not lay hold of true good when it was in his grasp. You say that Smeagol was good? Smeagol would have been torn between the desire for the Ring and his Master. In the end, things would have been just as they were: Smeagol would have died in the fires of Mount Doom. Only now, Frodo would have been alone. Frodo would have stayed on the side of the mountain and Frodo would have died then and there.
¨Well, Master, we could at least go further from this dangerous place here, from this Crack of Doom, if that's it name. Now couldn't we? Come, Mr. Frodo, let's go down the path at any rate!¨

Very well, Sam. If you wish to go, I'll come.¨ Said Frodo, and they rose and went slowly down the winding road; and even as they passed towards the Mountain¡¦s quaking feet, a great smoke and steam belched from the Sammath Naur, and the side of the cone was riven open, and a huge fiery vomit rolled in slow thunderous cascade down the eastern mountain-side.
This quote in itself is enough to insure the necessity of Sam for those who wish to ignore that Hobbit¡¦s most important part in the stories before. If Sam hadn't been there, Frodo would have laid at the top of Mount Doom and died in its fires.

I would like to bring to your attention that Gollum already had told Shelob of Frodo and Sam's approach. Gollum got the better of Smeagol in all the past debates. The only sign of potential repentance that Gollum shows is when he looks upon his sleeping Master. At this point in time, Shelob has already been for-warned of the approach of the Hobbits. I do not believe she would have let Gollum or Frodo by if Gollum had repented. And if Shelob had caught Frodo, what then? Gollum would have taken the Ring and probably would have lost all inclination to destroy it. Sam would not have been there to reminded Frodo to use the Phial of Galadriel, and all would have been lost.

I did not say that Sam saved the world, but only that his presence was indispensable. Without him, the Quest would have failed. I guess in a sense it's the same thing. :)

Gollum a hero? I don't think so! Gollum, the one who is not strong enough to handle a little rebuke from Sam? It was Gollum's fault that he stayed evil! Sam cannot be held accountable for Gollum's actions!

Crazy Tolkien! :eek:

[YayGollum]

It says that he weakened himself. So what? It says that after the jealousy of the evil sam, he was lost. That makes it the evil sam's fault that Shelob got them. Poor Smeagol could have always gotten them through. He got through easily. When he wasn't around, they wandered around because they couldn't see in the dark very well. They ran into the webs. That's just craziness. If poor Smeagol was still feeling like being nice to Frodo, he could have taken him through superly safely. If the evil sam wasn't tagging along in the first place, he never would have even thought of Shelob! Yay! So much better!

In the end, things would have been just as they were? You crazy? Doesn't one of those quotes say something about Gollum willingly tossing the Ring in? Yeah, I think so. That's a different ending. Everybody would agree with me about Gollum being the hero! :D That's what I mean by everything being better if the evil sam wasn't around.

I could care less about boring old Frodo dying. :rolleyes: Why do you think that the evil sam was indispensable and that without him, the quest would have failed? just because he saved Frodo after Gollum saved the day? Who cares about Frodo? :rolleyes:

Gollum, the one who is not strong enough to handle a little rebuke from the evil sam? Sure, he wasn't strong enough then, but we know from the quote you gave that later, he would have the strength to willingly destroy the Ring. That's pretty strong, I'd say! Say thank you to the evil sam for halting poor Smeagol's super heroic strength! :eek:

The evil sam cannot be held accountable for Gollum's actions? Ummm...in this case, you're wrong. The quote says that if the evil sam wasn't so evil, Gollum wouldn't have let Shelob get anybody. And everyone would love him so much more! :D

I guess that this is just another one of those arguements that noone will win because I know I'm right, but for some crazy reason, you actually think you're right. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

:rolleyes: Are you enjoying yourself? ;)

Sam cannot be held accountable for Gollum's actions. It is not his business, nor is it his fault if Gollum has evil inside thoughts. If the evil sam wasn't tagging along in the first place, he never would have even thought of Shelob!
I beg to differ! Gollum warned Shelob BEFORE the entire Sam incident! In the debate between Smeagol and Gollum, Gollum got the better of Smeagol. There was only one debate that we are told about, and that debate is the one which Sam overhears. This debate takes place BEFORE the Black Gate is reached, and this debate is when Gollum forms the idea of Shelob. I'm afraid that Gollum did not care about Frodo at this point. He had already formed the wicked plan long before the "evil Sam" was supposedly evil. And since Gollum notified Shelob before he felt love for Frodo, I am sure that Shelob would have been more than ready to kill Gollum as well should he try to get Frodo through to Mordor. I'm afraid Gollum was very much to blame!

Gollum would not have "willingly tossed the Ring" into Mount Doom. Rather, after treacherously stealing the Ring from Frodo, he would have commited suicide because he was trying to satisfy his desire and love his Master at the same time.
I could care less about boring old Frodo dying. :rolleyes:
I guess that this is just another one of those arguements that noone will win because I know I'm right, but for some crazy reason, you actually think you're right. I wonder why! :rolleyes: :D

[YayGollum]

Yes, I am superly enjoying myself! :D Anything about Gollum! :D I love this guy! ---> :D

Anyways, you're right that it's not his business or his fault that poor Smeagol has evil little inside thoughts, but what does that have to do with anything? The evil sam helped out with making those thoughts louder, which is evil and driving-poor-Smeagol-to-Shelob-contacting behavior. The quote that you gave me says so. Thanks.

Sure, Gollum came up with the idea to talk to his good friend Shelob pretty early, but the evil sam was still evil to him around that time. Sure, Gollum never liked Frodo. What does this craziness have to do with anything? Who cares about the time Gollum came up with the idea to talk to Shelob? That doesn't matter. If the evil sam wasn't so evil on the way to Shelob, poor Smeagol would have decided against it. Obviously! :rolleyes:

Woah! Where did you come up with the crazy idea that Shelob would have killed Gollum if he was helping Frodo out? Nah. He's too quick and cool and smart to get caught. He knew all kinds of sneaky ways to get in and out. With Gollum leading the stupid Frodo who would normally walk slow and run into walls, they would have easily gotten away. But then, we'll never know, will we? Bawl! :rolleyes:

Of course Gollum was to blame with the whole Shelob-meets-nasssty-hobbitses scene! But the evil sam was also to blame. They each had a part in it, even if one was superly oblivious. Without the evil sam's part helping Gollum's decision, they would have been home free. Obviously! :rolleyes:

Now what's this craziness about Gollum not willingly tossing the Ring into Mount Doom? Did you even read the quotes? If he's willingly committing suicide while willingly holding onto the Ring, he's willingly destroying the Ring. No doubt about it, crazy lady.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Good, I'm glad you're getting lasting delight out of a lost cause. ;)

Anyways, you're right that it's not his business or his fault that poor Smeagol has evil little inside thoughts, but what does that have to do with anything? The evil sam helped out with making those thoughts louder, which is evil and driving-poor-Smeagol-to-Shelob-contacting behavior. The quote that you gave me says so. Thanks.
Thanks for what? For proving you wrong? I am afraid that you are thinking about the movie here. In the movie Frodo and Sam's actions cause Gollum to contact Shelob. You have completely ignored the parts in my past posts which refer to the book version of that story. In the book, Gollum contacts Shelob BEFORE Sam's rude comment, not after. Gollum's little mind was already working his evil. You cannot blame Sam for the evil that was in Gollum's mind. The quote I supplied does not say that Sam was at fault for Gollum's fall; it says that Gollum was too far gone in his own sin to be able to pull out at Sam's comment. Thus it was Gollum's fault, not Sam's.
Sure, Gollum came up with the idea to talk to his good friend Shelob pretty early, but the evil sam was still evil to him around that time. Sure, Gollum never liked Frodo. What does this craziness have to do with anything? Who cares about the time Gollum came up with the idea to talk to Shelob? That doesn't matter. If the evil sam wasn't so evil on the way to Shelob, poor Smeagol would have decided against it. Obviously!
Gollum never liked Frodo? There you go! Tell me, why did Gollum contact Shelob? Why did he want Frodo and Sam to die? Not because he was mad at Sam! Not by a long shot! All Gollum wanted was the Ring. The contact made with Shelob was not made because of any rudeness on Sam's part. No, it was made to satisfy Gollum's own desires.

Sam helped make things louder? I'm sure that many people helped make Gollum's evilness louder, Frodo included. Is that those people's fault? In this case it is inevitably the person's fault who is affected fault when you boil it down. Frodo cannot be blamed for Gollum's evilness, and neither can Sam. Gollum was responsible for his own mind. If he could not supress his evilness at a small comment from Sam, it was his own fault.

You also cannot overlook the fact that Sam's comment was not altogether undeserved. Sam knew no better, for he saw Gollum as the miserable trixy creature he was and did not see any possible good side. You cannot tell me that Gollum by any means did his best to be nice to Sam. Sam only did what was natural. How would you react to a creature who wanted more than anything to kill your Master and ruin the world?

Now what's this craziness about Gollum not willingly tossing the Ring into Mount Doom? Did you even read the quotes? If he's willingly committing suicide while willingly holding onto the Ring, he's willingly destroying the Ring. No doubt about it, crazy lady.
Hmmm... that's an interesting way to put it. You say that Gollum was willing to toss the Ring into Mount Doom because he had the strength of will. I am afraid that that is not correct. Gollum would have destroyed the Ring because he had to. He would be torn between his love for Frodo and his love for the Ring. In order for both to be content, he would have had to throw himself into the firey mountain. Does this sounds so honorable?

[YayGollum]

Crazy person! I have been talking about the books. You gave one quote that said something about Gollum's debate weakening him so that after the evil sam's jealousy, he was lost. Even though he had already talked to Shelob, if the evil sam wasn't around to be evil, he could have gotten Frodo through safely because Smeagol would be superly strong.
Anyways, if the evil sam wasn't around in the first place, Gollum wouldn't have gotten as mad and he wouldn't have decided to talk to Shelob. It's all the evil sam's fault. How evil is Frodo to Gollum at the times we're talking about? Not very. The evil sam was evil all the time.
Yes, Gollum talked to Shelob to get the Ring. But we know that Smeagol would never do that. He was good friends with Frodo. The quotes say that if the evil sam wasn't so evil, he would not be lost. Smeagol would have gotten stronger. Just like in the movie, he would have been free. No more Gollum. Gollum got stronger with negative emotions running around. Without the evil sam to be evil, Smeagol would have gotten stronger faster. It's not that hard to figure out.
I don't like to peer into the evilness of the evil sam's mind like you. I don't care what any of his reasons for doing things are. I just notice what happens because of him. sorry about that.
Yes, Smeagol would have been honorable. You talk about his love for Frodo. Even though nobody ever told him why they wanted to destroy his security blanket, he figured out that they wanted to destroy it, so he decided to get rid of it just to be nice to Frodo. Sure, the Gollum half was just happy to have the Ring.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'm coming, I'm coming! I've been extremely busy lately...when I post next it'll be my closing argument. :)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Gah, I am grounded from TTF for three weeks. I'll post here as soon as I can, but in the meantime you guys might want to start a new debate. ;) I'm so sorry Yay! :( I'll post as soon as possible!

[YayGollum]

oh well. Looks like everyone else has forgotten about this place anyways. Doobedoobedoo... :rolleyes:

[ILLOTRTM]

I haven't forgotten! How could I forget my own bar? :D I'm sad to see her go for so long though. :( Now where am I gonna get some customers in the mean time?.....

[YayGollum]

Very easy. All you have to do is go to that who's online thingy and if you see someone you think is cool, you PM them and tell them to show up. :rolleyes:

[Oberon]

hello,

I am Oberon am i would love to have a debate with you. I hope we can start a new debate soon. Just a few ideas:

*Who was the better smiths,Elves or dwarves?

*Were do you believe the remaining palintar (sp really sorry) have gone to?

*Most honorable person in ME (ever)

Hope i helped!!!

[YayGollum]

Yikes! Sure, welcome. Why not? Scary debates!

I say that Dwarves were obviously the better smiths.

I forget the answer to the second question, but I never thought that it was something you could debate about. I thought it was a fact. oh well.

That last one is way too scary! Honorable people? Ick. Give me a weaselly character any day! :rolleyes:

[ILLOTRTM]

Yay! A new customer! :D:D:D And he has debate ideas! Excellent.... I wonder if there's anyone else hanging around this bar besides us three that I'm just not seeing. :rolleyes: Well, Yay, you like weasley characters, huh? Lemme guess- you just LOVED Wormtongue? :D

[Anamatar IV]

I challeng you to a debate, Cora. Pick a topic and you're on!:D

[ILLOTRTM]

I'll accept your challenge, but only if YOU pick the topic! And I ask that it be from LOTR since I stumbled my way through the Silm. and it's been several years since I read the hobbit. :)

[Anamatar IV]

How about would things have gone for better or worse if the entire fellowship had gone to Mordor?

If you agree upon this I'd take the side of things would have gone for worse.

Ready?:D

[Oberon]

Sorry to interupt, but are we aloud to debate or just you two, not trying to start a fight, just wondering!:D

[ILLOTRTM]

Oberon, if you mean the debate Anamatar and I are going to have, we haven't even decided on a topic yet. :D If you wanted to debate with someone, however, I think Yay is still here. ;) Though I think he's a bit picky about topics.....
Well, Anamatar, you and I have already decided to scratch the Moria idea, so I'm ready to debate when you come up with something good. Dunno how well I'll do, though.....

[YayGollum]

Of course I like Wormtongue! Isn't it crazy that Tolkien let Gollum save the day Mount Doom and Grima save the day at the Shire? The nasssty hobbitses who so many people love to think are the heroes never did anything! :D oh well.

Sure, Oberon dude. We can debate about the Dwarf and elf thing. Capitalized name lady, what's wrong with what this Anamatar IV person just came up with?

[Oberon]

ok yay, I will side with the elves seeing as how the dwarves would be the natural pick.

* Who was it that created Gandalf's sword? Elves

* same with Frodo's Sting? Elves

* I believe that most of the famous swords that were in the book were Elvish, most were made centuries ago, I will give you that, but even if the Elves of today suck, my point still stands.

:D :D :D Your turn!!:D :D :D

[ILLOTRTM]

Alright! A debate! :D Actually, Yay, it was Anamatar's idea to nix the idea. He decided he didn't like it. So now we're just waiting for him to pick a good topic. If I may quote you: Doobedoobedoo... :rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

oh well. sorry about that. Anyways, who cares about the famousness of swords? You just admitted that later elves weren't as good as older ones. Dwarves are always the same. That makes them better.

[Oberon]

no, not better just adverage. The question was

"*Who was the better smiths,Elves or dwarves?"

you loose I win.... yah that was fun

[YayGollum]

Oh, so when you say that the later elves suck, you just mean that Dwarves are average compared to that. Got it. :rolleyes: Averageness is always better than suckiness, I thought. oh well. Maybe you should specify which time period of elves you're talking about. I have no idea when the swords you're talking about were made. Do you?

[Oberon]

would someone answer if they know because i do not have the book w/ me at this time. I believe it was in the hobbit that Gandalf stated where and when the swords were made. But those were but two of many. I am sorry for not making the question as clear as it should be. :D my fault!

[Elijah'sgurl]

*Rawien walks in with her pitbull Corey and sits at the bar.

"1 martini please"

Rawien looks around and dosent know enyone in the bar. But the warning in her heart says that someone is watching her.

[Oberon]

Well hello, I am new as well but I would be willing to help in any way possible!! Have fun!!!!

[Elijah'sgurl]

Thanx, im sure i will.:) :cool:

[YayGollum]

Well, Oberon dude, I don't know when those swords were made, but why don't you just rephrase the qestion or something to fit however you want? It sounds like you'd like to say ---> Which race are teh better smiths? Dwarves at any time (since they're always the same) or elves at their best? :rolleyes: I think that's a little evil, though.

Hey there, lady! *grabs her a martini*

[ILLOTRTM]

Hey there, newcommer! Great to see another customer. Make yourself at home.... not much going on right now, Yay and Oberon are trying to work out some kind of debate about smiths in middle-earth, and I'm just hanging around waiting for Anamatar to come up with a good topic to debate on. If you're looking for a debate I suppose I'm free right at this moment. Lemme know if you have a good topic you want to debate on......
Well, if anyone needs me, I'll be over here having a v&f and working on the sales pitch for my bar :D

[Oberon]

I agree Yay, Lets pick a diff. topic, You get to choose, ok?

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora notices the pitbull and falls off the box she's standing on behind the counter.
"Hey hey.... what's that... DOG doing here?.... h... h... he'd better be house-broken."
She scrambles for a stool farther away from the dog and awaits a new debate while eyeing the pitbull warily.

[YayGollum]

I'm not a dog fan, either. Anyways, sorry, Oberon dude, but I'm all debated out. Haven't had to think of an original debate topic in a while. I'll come up with something. But then, I'd love to go with my favorite debate. The one about the true hero of LOTR. :rolleyes:

[ILLOTRTM]

The true hero of LOTR? Well that's easy. EVERYONE knows it's Sam.... ah, I mean.... erm.... *cough*... hehe. :D I'm just kidding, I think Smeagol was the hero too.
Hmm, what keeps happening to my customers? They'll come in, order a drink, and leave before they even taste it! :confused: perhaps I should lower the price of v&f again?...

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, I'm back. I'm terribly sorry I had to get grounded at such a bad time! :o Here's my final post in this debate:

....he could have gotten Frodo through safely because Smeagol would be superly strong.
Smeagol would be superly strong...I like that. :rolleyes:

The Two Towers "Let go! Gollum," he said. This is Sting. You have seen it before once upon a time. Let go,or you'll feel it this time! I'll cut your throat."[/I]
The Two Towers "No, we won't," said Frodo. "But we won't let you go, either. You're full of wickedness and mischief, Gollum. You will have to come with us, that's all, while we keep an eye on you.
The Two Towers Gollum sat up again and looked at him under his eyelids. "He's over there," he cackled. "Always there. Orcs will take you all the way. Easy to find Orcs east of the River. Don't ask Smeagol. Poor, poor smeagol, he went away long ago. They took his Precious, and he's lost now."

"Perhaps we'll find him again, if you come with us." Said Frodo.

"No, no, never! He's lost his Precious," said Gollum.

"Get up!" Said Frodo.

Gollum stoof up and backed away against the cilff.

"Now!" Said Frodo. "Can you find a path easier by day or by night? We're tired; but if you choose the night, we'll start tonight."

"The big lights hurt ouf eyes, they do," Gollum whined, "N9ont under the White Face, not yet. It will go behind the hills soon, yess. Rest a bit first, nice hobbits!"

"Then sit down," said Frodo, "and don't move!"
The Two Towers....Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach on another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.

"Down! Down!" Said Frodo. "Now speak your promise!"
The Two TowersPleading and kind words were no longer of any avail. It was not until Frodo commanded him angrily and laid a hand on his swordhilt that Gollum would get up again. Then at last he rose with a snarl, and went before them like a beaten dog.
The Two Towers "....If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care Smeagol!"....

ButGollum was in a pitiable state, and Frodo's threat had quite unnerved him.
Must I continue? These quotes speak for themselves. Frodo was not all honey to Gollum, no he was at times quite mean. How then can you blame Sam for Gollum's decision to talk to Shelob? I'm afraid it wasn't only his fault. Gollum's lack of conscience when contacting Shelob was partly a mixture of the treatment he received but mostly because of his lust for the Ring. You must remember that Gollum contacted Shelob out of a desire for the Ring, not out of a desire for revenge.

To sum up:

- The topic of the debate was: The evil sam was superly not needed at all. If he wasn't around, everything would have turned out so much better. I think I have proven that this statement is not true. Things would not have been better at all!

- Sam gave Frodo the support that he needed. If Sam had not been there Frodo would have probably given up even before he reached Mordor. Gollum could not replace Sam for Frodo.

- Shelob had already been told of Frodo's approach before Gollum considered repenting. Sam and Frodo along with Gollum's own lust for the Ring allowed for this to happen. It was not Sam's fault.

- In the event that Smeagol had helped his Master into Mordor, Smeagol would have been torn between destroying the Ring and helping his Master. In the end he would have cast himself with the Ring into Mount Doom. Frodo would then have been left alone and would have died when Mount Doom first belched forth its fires because Sam would not have been there to help him down the mountain.

- Thus, given Sam's valuable encouragement and help to Frodo I conclude that he was indespensible. To say that he was not needed at all is in no way, shape, or form a very wise thing to say, IMO. Sam was very much needed and without him Frodo undoubtedly would have died upon Mt. Doom.

Thank you very much for debatin Yay! I enjoyed it a lot! :D

[YayGollum]

Welcome back, Miss TTF! :D

Anyways, Do what? You're saying that the evil sam was needed just because he saved Frodo's life at Mount Doom after Gollum saved the day?

I don't know. Maybe I should have made the topic a little more specific. I said that the book would have been better without the evil sam. Maybe you did win. Maybe the way you'd like the book is how pretty much all normal people would like the book. The way I wrote the topic, I think I was just saying that if the evil sam wasn't around, I'd like the book a lot better. :rolleyes: Or at least that the book would have made everyone like Gollum a little more. oh well.

I say that the book would be better without the evil sam because everyone would like Gollum better without him. The quote you gave says that if the evil sam hadn't been so evil to him, poor Smeagol's personality would have won out over Gollum's personality. That's good for him. People would have to admit that he was the hero in the end. Even though it should be obvious now. :D

Why are you talking about Frodo being evil to Gollum, saying that he contributed to Gollum doing some evil things when the quote you gave blamed the evil sam for driving him over the edge? oh well. I think I messed this debate up with the opening topic sentence. I should work on that better next time.

[Nenya Evenstar]

:D:D:D:D ;);););)

Thanks, Mr. TTF!!!! :p

Hmm... yeah, well, I think we both kinda got lost with the topic sentence for a bit there... that is until I had forever to sit around and think about it. So, who's gonna judge? I don't think I won that easily!

[YayGollum]

Well, I don't think you won at all. Anyways, I doubt that anyone will judge. Noone likes to look at this thread anymore. *sniff* And I thought we had some new people. oh well. When are they going to give us our awards at that Mr. and Miss TTF ceremony? oh well. Think I should start this debate up somewhere where everyone can see it? Or is it just too crazy?

[Nenya Evenstar]

Maybe you did win.
Well, I don't think you won at all.
:rolleyes:

I don't know when the award stuff is going to happen! I left for three weeks expecting to miss the awards but I didn't miss anything.

Well, the debate is definitely crazy, but it is entertaining to hear you come up with all these wacky scenarios. You could start it up if you're prepared to battle every single other member of TTF. ;) Unless there are some more insane geniuses out there? I'd start it if it would give you enjoyment.

[YayGollum]

Woah! Using my own quotes against me! Good thing I put the maybe in there! :rolleyes: Anyways, I think that the Elbereth person was trying to be nice to you by waiting for you to show up again. She'll probably hand the things over soon. I would hope. About the thread idea, of course I don't mind being up against every other member of TTF! I am YayGollum! It's what I live for! :rolleyes: Sure, start the thread if you feel like it.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, I'm eternally grateful to Elbereth if that was the case. I didn't want to miss the ceremony at all! *dances around singing her thanks to the Star Queen*

Oh, me start the thread? I was thinking you'd start it. I'm burnt out on the topic. Besides, it wouldn't have the same flare if I started it -- that's your job. :D

[YayGollum]

Well, that's what I thought, too, but I thought that you had offered. Something's wrong with me. oh well. Yes, ma'am! Am starting the evil little thread. Why don't you come up with a new debate? You're not interested in any particular thing like I am?

[Nenya Evenstar]

A new debate...hmm...how about: Do Ents still live? It could be insane and fun at the same time. I won't be able to debate right now but I'd love to see someone else pick it up. :p

[Anamatar IV]

Caps lock person and I still need to debate....but I can't find a good topic.:(

Anyone have any suggestions?;)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Anyone have any suggestions? ;)
Ana, thy winks are frightening me out of my wits. You are winking me out of house and home! :p

Pick my topic, oh Evil One! :rolleyes:

[Nóm]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Well, I don't think you won at all. Anyways, I doubt that anyone will judge. Noone likes to look at this thread anymore. *sniff* And I thought we had some new people. oh well. When are they going to give us our awards at that Mr. and Miss TTF ceremony? oh well. Think I should start this debate up somewhere where everyone can see it? Or is it just too crazy?
hehehe! Remember, I said I am willing to judge any debate you guys have here.

I drop by from time to time... when I see the thread is active! :D

I just have no reason to post when I am not involved with a debate, unless it is to get drunk in the bar but I ought not do that (again?):confused:... :D

[ILLOTRTM]

Hehehehe... my beautiful bar. :D Well, it would be a lot better if SOMEONE would think of a good debate when he challenges people ;) (cough Anamatar cough)..... :D ;)

[Anamatar IV]

ILLOTRTM, you have first choice. Any books that you can find information about this topic is allowed.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I just have no reason to post when I am not involved with a debate, unless it is to get drunk in the bar but I ought not do that (again?)... By all means! ;)

But anyway, Confy, we do need some people to judge the debate. It'd be great if you'd do that. :) Anyone else?

[YayGollum]

Ick. Judge a debate about boring humans? I'll do it just to be nice if noone else decides to.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ick. Judge a debate about boring humans? I'll do it just to be nice if noone else decides to. We're talking about judging OUR debate, silly. *hits Yay on the head.

[YayGollum]

Oh. Whoops! Thought we were already moving on. *hides* Still, Argh! Boring humans! :D

[ILLOTRTM]

Hehe, Sorry, Anamatar, but I'm afraid we're gonna have to postpone OUR debate for a little while. You see, I've been having a lot of computer trouble... my brother is going to re-install windows on it. Also, I've been very busy lately as well... spring is always busy. I will still be here at the forum and I will even still be at this bar, but I won't have time for the debate just yet. If you want to use this debate with someone else, that's fine. If you don't, I'll claim my side in a week or two when I've got the time. :)
I don't know if you wanted me to judge this little debate here... I was kinda involved in the beginning :rolleyes:

[Anamatar IV]

Okay, Cora.:)

Anyone else wanna debate with Anamatar (aside from Nom to whom I have lost twice to:D)

[YayGollum]

Sure, I'll debate about the boring humans. Why not? What was the topic again? Would the Numenoreans have been superly stupid and tried to get to paradise without Sauron's help? I would say no.

[Vixen Evenstar]

*comes in and gets superly confused*

Hey ms nenya person...are you abusing Yay?

*wonders why anyone would hit yay...*

You never get a reaction....anything to drink round here???

*looks around*

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Sure, I'll debate about the boring humans. Why not? What was the topic again? Would the Numenoreans have been superly stupid and tried to get to paradise without Sauron's help? I would say no.

You always put these deep and profound topics in their real form!:D

Okay so you say no...I say yes the boring stupid humans would have gone to paradise without Sauron. Should we do rock paper scissors to see who starts?:rolleyes:

Since I challenged you can have the first argument.

[Vixen Evenstar]

oog....

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Hello, Vixen!" Nenya calls out from her seat. "Me, abusing Yay? Yay, would I ever do that?" A look of total innocence comes over Nenya's face.

Cora, I don't think you should help judge. But we do need some more volunteers.

[YayGollum]

Of course you would do that to me. I hear that it's fun. oh well. Poor Smeagol.

Anyways, yes, there's plenty to drink around here, Vixen Evenstar lady. People would like to persuade you to join in or judge a debate, but you don't have to. V&f is our specialty! :D

Evil Anamatar IV person, while I may have the ability to put deep and profound topics in their real form, you're always ready with a comment to make people feel stupid. Good job. :rolleyes: oh well.

Why can't the crazy capitalized name person judge? oh well.

My superly smart and well thought out opening statement about the debate that I could care less about will show up as soon as I can get home and glance at The Sil.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Why can't the crazy capitalized name person judge? oh well. I guess she could if we don't judge the part she had in the debate at the very beginning.

[YayGollum]

She had a part in it? I forgot. oh well. *scuttles off since he had a chance to read The Sil, but forgot*

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya barely resists cuffing Yay... again. ;)

[ILLOTRTM]

Don't remember? I was the one who took you up on this debate in the first place! :rolleyes:

So is this Vixen Person gonna stick around? All the other people breezin' into my bar just order a drink and leave. Don't they want to at least FINISH their drink? I mean geez, I go to all the trouble to maintain this bar... *grumble grumble*..... making drinks, watching... *grumble* debates.....

[Anamatar IV]

Gah! Yay, can I choose a side if you take some time longer.;)

Yeah, Cora, just 'cuz me and and Yay are debating on this superly erm dressed up debate topic doesn't mean you're off the hook...I see you trying to get out of each of our debates.;)

[YayGollum]

I don't know where that Vixen Evenstar lady went. oh well. What's keeping any of you people from tossing debates around? This rude Anamatar IV person can toss his side at me anytime. I already chose my side.

[Anamatar IV]

Whoops!

Alright, you say no, I say yes, you can start, that's what I was actually waiting for, my memory stinks, and I can't stop looking at myself in the mirror.

;) on that last part.

Anyways, you think Vixen Evenstar just came in here because it was a bar and then said "ug!" or whatever she said when she found out this had meaningful discussions, debates, and no spam?:(

[Vixen Evenstar]

Woah Anamatar person! Numbero uno: The word was "oog" never get "ug" and "oog" mixed up! Ver bad! Second of all...i don't know about meaningfullnes..or however you spell it...nothing means anything anymore...if you know what i mean....or you don't...doesn't matter.... 3- i come and go...you never know where i am or when i am...or...whatever...you know what i mean. well....now that thats all said and no one understood a word.....lets have a drink! Got red wine?

[Anamatar IV]

Sorry 'bout that, Vixen. Surrounded by some of these threads what can I expect?:)

So, uh, Yay, any chance you're gonna start or should I?

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora walks back into the bar just as Anamatar gave his comment.
"*cough* Java Coffe *cough* House.... *cough cough* Oh, I'm so sorry, I MUST be comming down with something!" ;) She hops back up onto her stool behind the bar.
"Well, IIIIIIIIIIIIIII'M BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! Hehe, computer trouble GONE, Busieness DONE WITH (for now) and I'm back to the usual schedule of things! So, anybody miss me?" :D
Cora fixes up a glass of red wine and hands it to Vixen.
"There you go. Enjoy! Now, where has all of my V&F Got to...?"

[Vixen Evenstar]

*Vixen wrinkles her nose at the mention of V&F*

Horrible stuff...

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora's laugh can be heard from behind the counter where she is ducked down, searching for a bottle of V&F.
"That's what I thought when I first had it, but it grew on me fast."
She jumps back up onto her stool, positively beaming, with a bottle of her favorite drink in hand. She drinks it happily while waiting for someone to start the debate about to occur.

[YayGollum]

V&f is the greatest! oh well. What's taking this Anamatar IV person so long? Ack! Sounds like he wants to start. Maybe I'm just crazy. Go ahead. Nobody's stopping you.

[Anamatar IV]

Alright I'll start...if you wanna totally disregard my previous posts and the way all of these debates have worked...but hey, nothing knew to you!;)

My intent in this debate is to show that the seeds of Evil had been planted in Men well before Numenor, and that they all led up to the rebellion.

From The Silmarillion we see the first seedlings of Evil in Men:

All this is but Elvish lore, tales to beguile newcomers that are unwary. The Sea has no shore. There is no Light in the West. You have followed a fool-fire of the Elves to the end of the world! Which of you has seen seen the least of the Gods? Who has beheld the Dark King in the North? Those who seek the dominion of Middle-earth are the Eldar. Greedy for wealth they have delved in the earth for its secrets and have sitrred to wrath the things that dwell beneath it, as they have ever done and ever shall. Let the Orcs have the realm that is theirs, and we will have ours. There is room in the world, if the Eldar will let us be!

These are the words that awoke first all thoughts of rebellion in the hearts of Men. As we know from the Akkalabeth the Men did not just give their hatred to the Valar but also the Eldar. They wanted to destroy the Elves of Aman.

We also know from Akallabeth that Numenor took drastic steps against the Death-less while they were still enemies with Sauron.

Men were always troubled and even...loathful about the Ban the Valar had put upon them but for long they did not trouble it. But even though they did not contest it....
ever west did their hearts turn
Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Numenoreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw fom afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, gre strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increaced
Even from the start of their days they feared death and wanted to look upon the undying lands.

Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.

Here it really begins. LONG before Sauron comes and already the Numenoreans are restless and angry.

they said among themselves: 'Why do the Lords of the West sit there in peace unending, while we must die and go we know not whither, leaving our home and all that we have made? And the Eldar die not, even those that rebelled against the Lords. And since we have mastered all seas, and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome it, why should we not go to Avallónë and greet there our friends?
And some there were who said: 'Why should we not go even to Aman, and taste there, were it but for a day, the bliss of the Powers? Have we not become mighty among the people of Arda?'


Now, even when Manwe himself spoke words to the Numenoreans they rebelled. Have we seen this before? Indeed! We have seen this with Feanor and his rebellion. But the Numenoreans rebelled with even more insolence and folly than Feanor.

But the King said: 'And does not Eärendil, my forefather, live? or is he not in the land of Aman?'

And the Númenóreans answered: 'Why should we not envy the Valar, or even the least of the Deathless? For of us is required a blind trust, and a hope without assurance, knowing not what lies before us in a little while. And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it.'

With Atanamir's actions (see below) the seed of Evil and rebellion in Numenor grew.

And Atanamir lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy; and he was the first of the Númenóreans to do this, refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned


In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.

The Lord of Numenor at this time took upon himself the name 'Lord of the West.' As the Faithful thought, this was an overly proud thing to do. This was open rebellion against the Valar. BEFORE Sauron came to Numenor. This king forsook the Elven tongue, forbid its usage. The next king banned all traces of the Eldar, tongue or ship or even welcome of ship, from the Land of Gift.

Even the Valar forsaw war in this time:

But all that they did was known to Manwë, and the Valar were wroth with the Kings of Númenor, and gave them counsel and protection no more; and the ships to Eressëa came never again out of the sunset; and the havens of Andúnië were forlorn.

And then we come to Ar-Pharazon. The one who brought Sauron to Numenor. The one who attacked Aman.

[YayGollum]

You crazy. oh well. This is an evil debate. just a bunch of crazy hypotheticalness.

Anyways, The Sil. says that these Numenorean dudes ran into the humans still on Middle Earth. It says that these humans were a lot less wise, a lot more weak, and a lot more scared of Sauron.

Sauron had influenced these people. The Numenoreans showed up and tried to help these people. The Numenoreans noticed that these people were a lot less wise, a lot more weak, and a lot more scared of Sauron. Do you doubt that they were disturbed by these humans? They didn't want to end up like them. The Middle Earth type of humans had shorter lives thanks to helping Sauron out in the past.

After Sauron grabbed a few of these Numenoreans, turned them into Nazgul thingys, and they started to kill some of their people on the shore of Middle Earth, the Numenoreans were even more disturbed thanks to Sauron. They are wanting eternal life more and more. They were only a little curious and jealous before.

And then of course, there's this Ar-Pharazon guy. Poor dude. You gots to feel sorry for him. Here he is, some superly great army type guy, defending Middle Earth, fighting Sauron all the time who's actually afraid of him, he notices that the guy in charge of Numenor at the time is a big elf fan, he thinks that being friendly with a bunch of people that never helped him in any way is a waste of time, when he gets to be in charge, he says, "Okay, enough of this crazy socializing! How's about we get to work and stop this Sauron person's evilness?" Everybody says, "Sure, good idea! Let's go!" Except for a few more elf friends that don't care about Middle Earth.

Anyways, this Ar-Pharazon guy defeats Sauron. Yay! Now for the mistake ---> He brings him back to Numenor as a prisoner, Sauron messes with his brain, and he tries to attack paradise. We all know that if it wasn't for this Ar-Pharazon guy being so stupid, the Numenoreans wouldn't have lost their little Atlantis place.

The kings of Numenor kept going back and forth between warlike guys that cared about Middle Earth and were afraid of death and the kind that loved hanging out with elves and other boring things like that. The next dude that got to be king after this Ar-Pharazon guy wasn't that bad. If Sauron hadn't been around to influence him, everything would have been much better. One of these more popular kings (at least to you elf fans) would have gotten to be in charge next and nothing bad would happen. Yay! We all know that Sauron pushed Ar-Pharazon over the edge. :D

Hope you could read all of that!

[Anamatar IV]

The Middle Earth type of humans had shorter lives thanks to helping Sauron out in the past. HERE you are wrong. Numenor was a blessed land. It came from living in Numenor that the Numenoreans had a longer life span. If you noticed throughout the Akallabeth it never says any shorter life span of a Numenorean barring wound or sickness (the Valar punished the rebellion of Numenor with disease). When the Faithful landed on Middle-earth, we know from the Appendixes of Lord of the Rings, that they had a shorter life span. The long life of the Numenoreans was the GIFT of the Land of Gift.

You say that they were only curious and jealous before and just now desired longer life. But Tar-Atanamir was the first open rebel against the Valar. If you look at my quotes from the post above you see that he desired the deathless life himself. Now since Sauron came to Numenor at the time of Ar-Pharazon, the Golden, the Last King of Numenor….

I’ll admit that without Sauron Pharazon would not have attacked the Valar but eventually one king of Numenor would have. People seem to think that had not the Downfall of Numenor been so soon there would have been more kings of Numenor. Elendil would NOT be the next king. EVENTUALLY the hatred and lust for life would grow on Numenor and they would attack the Valar openly.

[YayGollum]

Got it. About the life span thing ---> Maybe I'm crazy for believing that the Numenoreans got to have a long life because they didn't help Sauron out. Maybe this Numenor place would have made some evil Easterling guy live for hundreds of years if he sailed over. No wonder the Numenoreans wanted to go to paradise! According to what you're telling me, they must have thought that since Numenor gave them a longer life, paradise would give them eternal life. Poor guys. I wonder if some three hundred year old dude would just suddenly die if he went to Middle Earth. oh well. I thought that these people gradually got shorter lives. I'll have to read this stuff again. <--- said with lots of sarcasm.

About that second paragraph ---> Ick. Names of boring humans. Who cares? I'll go look it up later to say something intelligent.

Anyways, where did you find out about that scary all caps eventually thing? Toss that quote at me. I have no idea where you got that from. Looks like you won if it's true.

[Anamatar IV]

Yay what do you question? Elendil not being King or eventually the Numenoreans attacking the Valar? I'll prove both here:D

The line of Elendil goes:

Silmarien-->...........Amandil-->Elendil

Though Silmarien would have been the ruling Queen she was not according to current Numenorean law. So though Elendil might have been King the laws of Numenor at the time altered that.

And about eventually.......that is what I am trying to prove in this entire debate.;)

[YayGollum]

Yes, I was talking about the eventually thing. Notice where I said that thing about you using all caps? The all caps eventually had nothing to do with boring nameses of boring humans. Ick. Anyways, got it. You have yet to prove that the Numenoreans would have attacked paradise. I have no idea why you even tossed that little eventually thing in there if you didn't have some good evidence. You haven't even proved anything I've said wrong. You've actually agreed with me, crazy person. Come on! Too late. Looks like I won. :D :rolleyes:

[Anamatar IV]

Well, Yay, if it was something easily proven then it is not a debate.:D

I can't prove that eventually The Numenoreans would have attacked since that would take away the whole purpose of a debate. But likewise you can't prove that they wouldn't.

[YayGollum]

Oh? I did not know that debates weren't allowed to be easily proven. I've never had that problem before. Oh. Wait. No. Maybe I just think that because I superly believe and care about everything I talk about in all of my other debates. This is just a boring thing about achingly boring humans in a fantasy world. :rolleyes: Anyways, you think that I can't prove that the Numenoreans wouldn't attack paradise without Sauron? Ha! oh well. This is an evil debate. At least I come up with ideas that support my side and prove your ideas wrong.

[Anamatar IV]

Ah sorry I've not been able to post for a bit, guys. I've been gearing up for a debate with Ancalagon and thus have been forgetting to post.

Uhhh huuuuuuuuuh....Yay I couldn't make heads for tails of your last post so I'll just smile and nod.

All throughout the time of Numenor from the days of its bliss to the days of its folly you can see the fear of death and the lust of the Valar growing. You cannot tell me that it would not continue. You cannot tell me that without Sauron the Numenoreans would have seen their folly and accepted their gift. You simply can't.

[YayGollum]

Oh, yeah? trying to sound superly intelligent ---> Well, you can't prove me wrong, either. :rolleyes: Anyways, oh, Ick! I never noticed the fear of death and all of that craziness growing superly crazily any more than the elf loving that was also going on. The huge and main and evil part was the part with the Ar-Pharazon guy. If only we knew what to expect if he wasn't messed with by the evil Sauron. oh well. Did you understand that? Is anyone else still here? :confused:

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'm still here . . . just hiding in a corner. :D

[Anamatar IV]

Well, Yay, I don't know what I am trying to prove wrong. You don't have a central thesis. You just seem to be giving us an overall summary of the ending of the Akallabeth! Once you tell me what you are trying to prove I will attempt to disprove it.

I never noticed the fear of death and all of that craziness growing superly crazily any more than the elf loving that was also going on.

Alright here we go:

The early days of Numenor, people know they will die they say oh well --> People start fearing death but no actions as of yet --> in whispers among eachother people speak against the Valar and the deathless --> People now start speaking openly against the Valar and the deathless --> The king himself speaks against the Valar and doesn't lay himself to die until he is old and sick and crippled --> Contact with Elves is prohibited --> Use of the Elvish language is prohibited and only used in the scrolls of old --> Kings take Adunaic names and ban the use of Elvish even in ancient scrolls.

You can easily see how this feeling grows among the people of Numenor.

[YayGollum]

There ya go! Much better! Anyways, Ick. I can always sound smarter when I get home and can look at the book, but some of that stuff in the little list you tossed over here came about because of Sauron. I explained it earlier. oh well.

[Anamatar IV]

You know, Yay, though we put up great arguments and debated really well this really isn't a debate. It is an argument that starts in a thread somehow, really. So do you wanna keep going as we are, start over, or give the floor to some other people?

[YayGollum]

How do you define a debate? oh well. Whatever you decide. That was an evil topic. I only did it because everyone else thought it was too boring. I agree.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora yawns and stretches her arms.
"Well I'M getting bored," She says loudley. She looks around the bar and notices how empty and slow it is. A light at one side of the bar flickers. Cora goes over and flicks it, returning it to normal.
"Now what is wrong with my bar? Should I lower the price of V&F again....?" She ponders out loud. Deciding against it, she returns to her stool behind the bar.
"Well, if you guys are all finished with this little debate, Anamatar and I have discussed a debate we'd like to use..... lemme know when you're ready, your dictatorship. By the way, can I fix anyone a drink?"

[Anamatar IV]

Sure, I'm ready. Why are you calling me the dictatorship when you own the bar?;)

You can pick sides first.

Ack! Cora, you didn't mention the topic?:D

After Gandalf's fall should Aragorn have led the Fellowship? Sure he was the heir to Isildur but he was far from a throne. But is the strength of his blood all that matters?

[YayGollum]

Looks like I won. Yay me! Anyways, Ick. He is an evil person. I agree. It'd be nice if you people said what you were going to argue about.

[ILLOTRTM]

"Woah, was the the debate we decided on???? I thought it was something else... oh well, we've disscussed several.

Should Aragorn have led the Fellowship?

Should Boromir have been in the Fellowship?

Should Boromir have LED the fellowship?

I assumed we were doing one of those. :D Just so I'm clear, which are we doing? Or were we kinda going to do them all at once? Let me know... then I'll choose sides.....

Yay, do you mind telling me something that ISN'T "Ick" or "Evil"? ;)

[YayGollum]

I did tell you something other than those things. You missed them? oh well. Are you two people the only one's allowed in the debate, whatever it is? just wondering. None of them look especially interesting to me. I could always act like a judge.

[Anamatar IV]

Well, Cora, I'd prefer whether Aragorn should have led the fellowship. It's basically the same as should Boromir have led it. But the thing with whether or not Aragorn should have, it is open to more than just Boromir. There is Legolas AND Boromir. I dunno...aren't they the same actually? Sure, yay, you can be a judge. Gonna draw more funny pictures?;)

[ILLOTRTM]

"Alrighty. I'll say yes, Aragorn should have led the Fellowship after Gandalf's fall in Moria. You can make the first agrument. I'll try my best." :)

[YayGollum]

What was that about drawing funny pictures? I have no idea what you're talking about. Am I just an achingly stupid person? oh well.

[Anamatar IV]

Well Yay a while ago in one of our debates all you did was draw superly smart looking pictures, right?;)

Should Aragorn have led the Fellowship? NO! That's obvious. What good does blood do you out in the wild? Take a look at Aragorn when the Fellowship set out. Travel worn garb, boots, and a cloack. He's a beggar in the wild. So far from his throne the King of Gondor has no power. Theoden said it in The Two Towers and Gandalf agreed.


(Yes, I know this was short but it's my opener;))

[YayGollum]

Am I only allowed to judge? Because that first post for the debate was weak. oh well. Anyways, I guess I am just an achingly stupid person. I have no idea what pictures you're talking about. I have never drawn a picture for any debate. You crazy.

[ILLOTRTM]

(Yay, my posts in this little debate are going to be just as weak, so don't encourage him to do better :D )

Should Aragorn have led the Fellowship? My answer is YES! You're right, blood that far away from the throne didn't serve him any good. However, when did Aragorn ever rely on blood before? After seeing what ended up happening to Boromir in "The Departure of Boromir," chapter 1, book three of The Two Towers, you have to admit that Aragorn either had more will power or at least more resistence against the Ring. The only other member of the Fellowship that might have led would have been Legolas. Aragorn was a ranger, and his tracking skills were superior to Legolas'. What would have happened after Boromir's death if Legolas had led? He clearly would have gone after Sam and Frodo, which would mean that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would never have gone to Rohan. What do you have to say to this?

(Sooo... how was that? Was I good? :):):):) )

[YayGollum]

It was better than his post. *drinks v&f*

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora sqeals with deleight, then looks over at Yay with his V&F. She grabs a bottle while hovering protectively over the other bottles.

[Anamatar IV]

Hey, I told you it was an opener. Alright, Cora, now you can blame Yay when I start working on this debate earlier than I had planned.:mad:

:rolleyes:
************************************

You're right, blood that far away from the throne didn't serve him any good.

Thanks. That means the debate's over right?

However, when did Aragorn ever rely on blood before?

When he earned the trust as a leader. . .I'd find it funny if he went to Gondor claiming to be king calling himself some guy who slept on some comfy moss once.

After seeing what ended up happening to Boromir in "The Departure of Boromir," chapter 1, book three of The Two Towers, you have to admit that Aragorn either had more will power or at least more resistence against the Ring.

Possibly. . .if this were a movie debate. In the books Aragorn did not know of Frodo's leaving until he, Legolas, and Gimli had tp piece together the puzzle.

The only other member of the Fellowship that might have led would have been Legolas.

Why are you so quick to rule out Boromir? Because he wanted the ring? Pish. Isildur was tempted by the ring from the moment he saw it. Would you have some prancy Elf lead the Fellowship rather than Isildur?

Okay I'll let you in on a few secrets. Legolas was not a high-Elf. He may have been wise but he wasn't forsighted. He wouldn't know what would happen if he went either way. The same with Aragorn. Thus it is useless to argue that maybe some things wouldn't have happened if Aragorn wasn't the leader.

I will elaborate on my opener now.

A king is a king in his own country and no where else.

The Two Towers'This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor

A king will have his way in his own hall, be it
folly or wisdom.'


Away from his hall a king is not a king. That much is said and that much is obvious. As far as the Fellowship goes, he's just a guy with a famous sword.

There was no reason for Aragorn to lead the Fellowship. What's blood got to do in the wild other than how much of it is in you? Royalty is nothing away from where you would be considered as such.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora's face turns the shade of a lovely ripe tomato. Pulling a discipline wand from her back pocket, she begins smacking Yay with it repetitively.
"I *smack* ALMOST *smack* HAD *smack* HIM *smack* GOING *smack* EASY ON ME!!!!!! *smack smack smack*"

Cora sighs and puts the wand away.

"Well, let's see.....

Possibly. . .if this were a movie debate. In the books Aragorn did not know of Frodo's leaving until he, Legolas, and Gimli had tp piece together the puzzle.

Hey, whoever said this had anything to do with Frodo's leaving? Boromir still went after Frodo in the books. Though the Ring was not offered to Aragorn as it was in the movie, never was he that temtped by it. So I stick by what I said before: either Aragorn was less tempted by the ring than Boromir, or Arongorn's will power was greater than Boromir's.

Why are you so quick to rule out Boromir? Because he wanted the ring?

No, that is simply the first reason that comes to mind. Alright, let's say Boromir didn't go after the ring and led the Fellowship. He obviously would have taken them to Minas Tirith in Gondor, and not to Edoras in Rohan.

Okay I'll let you in on a few secrets. Legolas was not a high-Elf. He may have been wise but he wasn't forsighted. He wouldn't know what would happen if he went either way.

Good, so then we're agreed that he wouldn't be the right one to lead the Fellowship. :D

Away from his hall a king is not a king. That much is said and that much is obvious. As far as the Fellowship goes, he's just a guy with a famous sword.

There was no reason for Aragorn to lead the Fellowship. What's blood got to do in the wild other than how much of it is in you? Royalty is nothing away from where you would be considered as such.

Well now you're confusing me. Yes, I agree, the fact that he was royalty in Gondor wouldn't help him in the wild. What I am saying is that he never needed his royal position to be the great leader he was. The reason he was meant to lead the Fellowship was because of his abilities to track, his bravery, his knowledge of the land, his knowledge of Gandalf's plans, and his survival skills.

Let me remind you that Boromir was also of Royalty in Gondor, and it did not serve him any good out there either, so it all boils down to their knowledge and skills, not their blood.

[Anamatar IV]

He obviously would have taken them to Minas Tirith in Gondor, and not to Edoras in Rohan.

Aragorn and company didn't exactly willfully go to Rohan. They were caught be Eomer and took vows to return to Edoras with the horses that had been lent. If Boromir was leading he would have been caught the same.

Good, so then we're agreed that he wouldn't be the right one to lead the Fellowship.

So by your logic that you yourself spoke we can assume that Aragorn wouldn't have been the right one to lead the Fellowship.

Okay I'll let you in on a few secrets. Legolas was not a high-Elf. He may have been wise but he wasn't forsighted. He wouldn't know what would happen if he went either way. The same with Aragorn.

abilities to track, his bravery, his knowledge of the land, his knowledge of Gandalf's plans, and his survival skills.

1. Ability to track what now? Did the Fellowship chase anything until they sought Merry and Pippin? Don't tell me because Merry and Pippin got lost is the reason Aragorn should've led. . .no one knew at the time they'd get captured.

2. A map can give anyone the knowledge of the land, from the most dimwitted to the wisest man on earth.

3. Aragorn didn't suddenly know of Gandalf's plans. . .Gandalf had to tell him about them sooner or later. Gandalf could've told anyone his plans.

4. Survival skills...I admit Aragorn had the best survival skills of the Fellowship but he wasn't the only one with survival skills. Boromir lasten 110 days in the wild trying to get to Rivendell from Gondor. Sam and Frodo survived very well on their own in Mordor. And aside from the amount of survival skills the Fellowship had, why would you need so much when you take food with you from Rivendell and get more and better food in Lothlorien?

[Anamatar IV]

Aragorn has no right to be the leader of the Fellowship after Gandalf. As Theoden said and Gandalf agreed, a king has no right to throne afar from his country. You have even less right to power in the middle of no where.

Why should Aragorn have led the Fellowship? Because he can track anything on legs? Why would you need to track something out on a journey in which the mission is centered upon secrecy? You wouldn't.

Every member of that Fellowship had superb survival skills. If that is all that counted why not let Sam lead them? And guess what...he'll cook too!

So to put it frank, Aragorn had no more right to lead the Fellowship than Boromir or Legolas or even Frodo! There is a reason it was called a Fellowship.

[ILLOTRTM]

Aragorn was definitely the best leader for the fellowship after Gandalf. His royal position did not serve him much good, but he didn't need it. Aragorn was great at being a leader without his position! I'm not saying he just needed his ability to track for Merry and Pippin, though you have to say that came in rather handy and I beleive it lead to very important events.

But his ability to track was not the reason he should have led the fellowship. I think it should have been him as opposed to Boromir, at least, because he obviousley either had more will power or resistence towards the ring. Though it was not offered to him like it was in the movie, either way Boromir still tried to take the Ring from Frodo, and it had not been offered to him, either. THAT is one of the biggest reasons I think Aragorn was right to lead the fellowship after Gandalf.

Well, there you go. Do you want to go about our (pitiful) debate by a vote?

[Anamatar IV]

Good...judges turn now?

[YayGollum]

The scary all caps person wins. Yay! Maybe it's because I don't like this evil anamatar iv person. Maybe it's because this scary all caps person tried to prove that Aragorn would make a good leader while this evil anamatar iv person just tried to prove all of that stuff wrong while not making any other character look like a good leader. From what this scary all caps person had to say, I saw why he might make a good leader. From what this evil anamatar iv person had to say, I just saw why he might not be, but with all of this talk about the other characters tossed in there, none of them looked any better than Aragorn. oh well. I hope that made sense.

[Nóm]

From outside the bar, faint but clear, was the growing sound of a song, it was Nóm, passing by!

...the wind passed from the west
and the stars shone out bright,
illuminating and rustling leaves,
voices of the trees,
and in the morning returned,
I wondered what they said that night.

'o western wind
and glimmering starshine, we are.
Light as in you would in the west,
and take us alight...

...and the voice faded away, but a few minutes later it could be heard coming back from the direction where it disapeared before...

...to the land where our friends now dwell

take our message
above the earth
along the path
tell them that we are still here
and do remember
their voices in the lands
their song in the air...

And Nóm stepped into the bar...

tell our friends that we remember
their touch
and are still here'

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora sat silentley and looked at Nom. she turned her head to the side slightley for a moment, then shook her head and pulled out a V&F
The crazy customers you get when you open a bar..... she thought to herself.

[Nóm]

Seeing the look, Nóm grinned. Then in a loud voice she said: 'Oh, I just thought I'd stop by for a second to see what you guys are not doing. Anyhow, the place stinks of fish, so you must be having a lot of fun, right?

But don't trouble about me, I'm just passing through, and next time I do, I will sing louder and walk faster.'

Then Nóm threw her head back in wild laughter, and was out the door, and that was the last they ever saw of her.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora stood oped mouthed, gaping at the doorway. Several noises escaped her mouth in futile attemped of commenting, but she finally decided to give up on the subject and looked aroudn to the remaining occupants of the bar.
"Well... is Yay the only one who's goin g to vote? Because according to himself and Anamatar his vote is invalid."

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora looked around the once again cobwebb covered room. She sighed heavily at the unfortunate inactivity of her bar.
"Just because...... not a spam house.... no activity...."
She stood clearinf dust off the counter and brooding for a few minutes. When the counter was shiney and clean, Cora sat back on her stool and folded her arms.
"Well, at least it looks like I won that debate with Anamatar.... Maybe I'll get some new customers soon?" She thought to herself outloud.

[YayGollum]

I never said that I was gone. oh well. Doobedoobedoo... I tried starting this discussion in that debate guild place, but it didn't really work. Since this scary debate tournament thing is going on, why not talk about the people involved? Looks like everyone wants to toss their debating energies at the game, so why don't we just talk about the people involved? Instead of making all kinds of people achingly overworked. :rolleyes:

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora jumped at yay's voice, forgetting he was there. When he finished, she turned her head to one side and raised an eyebrow.
"Sorry, yay, but do you want to.... repeat that? In English? I'm, a little bit very confused....":rolleyes:

[YayGollum]

What's to be confused about? I said that we should talk about the people in on the debate tournament. Maybe PM people and get interviews on how cool they think they are. Get to know how much fun they're having. Get new customers for the achingly lightheartedness of our debates here.

[ILLOTRTM]

"Oh, I see. Well I would, but I'm pretty lazy. ;) I suppose I could, with the fact that I desperately need customers.... I guess I will in a little while when my laziness fades. Right now let me see if anyone shows up because of recent activity. *ahem* Doobedoobedoo.... :rolleyes: