The NEW Fire-Tongue Dragon Debate Bar

[ILLOTRTM]

Ah! Much better! My old bar for some reason wouldn't let me open the thread right after the begining of the first debate.... perhaps Anamatar threw an argument so good my computer couldn't handle it? :D Well, I've re-opened it! I, Cora Mardnab, hobbit of the Shire am now re-opening the Fire-Tongue Dragon Debate Bar where you can come in and debate with people over a drink on various topics. I'm the mediator. *Cora takes a long drink of her Flaming Homer, a drink she's REALLY taken a liking to.* Let it begin!

[Anamatar IV]

okay." anamatar sipped his own flaming homer which he introduced to the forum. DEBATES! Choose one!"

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora stops in mid-drink and looks around. Then she looks back at Anamatar "You mean me?"

[YayGollum]

*walks in, grabs a v&f, sits in an Official Debating Chair* "Well, he's gone. Sure, you come up with a debate. I'll debate about anything."

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora watches him sip his v&f, wincing as she remembers her first one.... "Well, I would suggest on weather Gollum was a hero or foe, but there would be a problem with sides, obviously.... :D

[YayGollum]

"Probably. Besides, that debate is too easy for me to win. LOTR definitely said that Gollum was the Hero. I never read that anybody other than Gollum destroyed the Ring." :D

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar whacked truors hands with the discipline wand. "I was still here!" he sipped his flaming homerand wondered what kind of fish was in the v & f. "How about we debate on the most valiant deed in middle earth during the war of the rings. A debate between the 3 of us? Im gonna represent Bard (or whatever his name was) killing smaug."

[YayGollum]

*grabs the discipline wand and snaps in two, then uses it as a toothpick for fish that gets stuck in his teeth* "Yeah, the guy's name was Bard, but he was dead before the War of the Ring. Do you mean the most valiant deed in the Battle of Five Armies?"

[Anamatar IV]

okay okay okay! In the 3rd age! After isildur! I assume Truor over here will be gollum biting frodo. :p Remember---the people who did the deed could NOT be killed when the accomplished it. Meaning no gandalf killing the balrog cuz he died himself.

[ILLOTRTM]

"Yeah... I'm getting a bit lost... tell you what, you two debate, and I'll mediate because I would end up agreeing too much with both sides on this one." Cora finishes her flaming homer and looks under the counter to find bottles and bottles of v&f. "Oh no, where did you come from?" Bravley she picks up a bottle. "Well, I'm feeling brave." Cora takes a big swig.... "Not.... to bad...."

[YayGollum]

"Well, if you're counting any valiant deed in the third age, then Bard could still be used. And why can't we use things where people died? Isn't it pretty valiant to sacrifice yourself for a cause? Yikes! Am I debating about the nature of the debate?" :rolleyes:

Whoops! Didn't see your post, crazy capitalized person! Yay for v&f! Yay for a Mediator or a Moderator, or whatever!

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora sits back and watches Truor debate with himself. When no one is looking she grabs another v&f bottle. "Man this stuff is addictive.

[Anamatar IV]

fine!" anamatar chugged a glass of the finest wine. "If its just us two then lets do of all time. I think you read the sil. I will choose glorfindel taking on a balrog." anamatar alked over and sat ni his debating chair. "You can mediate cora!"

[YayGollum]

*chokes on his v&f and accidentally spits it at Anamatar* "Woah! Of all time? That's a hard one, but it definitely wouldn't be boring old Glorfindel! I don't know. Maybe it would be that stinky Ear dude talking to the Valar and getting turned into a star? Poor guy. He saves Middle Earth and has to be stuck on that ship for forever. I don't know. Maybe it was just Gollum. Ack! Can't it be something easier?" :( :rolleyes:

[Anamatar IV]

okay then. You choose. Im not good at it anyways.

[YayGollum]

*judiciously sips on his v&f, then chews a piece of fish, looking like he's concentrating* "I don't know. How's about we debate about what Tom Bombadil is. He's one of those riddles wrapped in an enigma."

[ILLOTRTM]

"Oooh ohh! I vote that one!" Cora says jumping up and down. She takes another bottle of v&f and pulls a comfy chair from behind the counter.

[YayGollum]

"Okay, what side are you taking? I don't really mind which side I get. Got any paper towels for Anamatar's face, by the way?"

[Anamatar IV]

what do you mean paper towels? :confused:

I say he was a maia.

[YayGollum]

"I mean paper towels for your face. Did you not notice when I accidentally spit v&f at you when you suggested that we debate about what was the most valiant deed of all time? oh well. Okay, you're for him being a Maia thingy. Cora?"

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar just noticed that a large peice of fish was on his face. "EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW!!!!" anamatar cleaned himself off with some freezing water and then turned to the others. "I thought she was the media/judge?"

[YayGollum]

"I don't know. She seemed pretty interested in participating this time." *rolls eyes at Anamatar's overreaction* right there ---> :rolleyes:

Well, it looks like she's gone. I'll say that Tom Bombadil was Eru.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora pulls out half of the disipline wand and smacks Truor with it repeatatively. "I *whack* was *whack* still *whack* here!!!! Yeah, I'm still the mediation person, I just wanted you guys to dabate about that one, it's one of my favorite arguments!" Cora drinks the last of her v&f and grabs... another one. "Geez, what's in this stuff anyway?... Sorry, please continue."

[YayGollum]

"Argh! Evil thing!" *grabs all the pieces of the nasssty discipline thingy and burns them* "Okay, me and the Anamatar dude will debate about Tom Bombadil whenever he gets back. And as far as I know, there's only vodka and fish in that. Tookish-girl would know more about it than me."

[Anamatar IV]

okay I will start:

Our Thomas Bombadil is most likely a maia from the realm of valinor. If you read between the lines of both the fellowship of the ring and the silmarillion youd know that tommy sings. Alot. Youd also know that the maiar sang. Alot. So much so that many believe they helped the valar shape middle-earth. How else would thomas bombadil be able to speak to beasts and trees and plants and and bend them to his will? One of the most esteemed maia, melian, had this power. Maybe bombadil picked those songs up from the themes of eru...

[YayGollum]

"Well, I would have to say that he was Eru because he also sang and because the Ring didn't affect him. You'll notice that it affected Saruman, Gandalf, and even Sauron. There're all Maia. I don't see why this is such a big debate. It's pretty obvious that he's either Eru or just a Valar, and I doubt he's a Valar since they're all over in that stinky little Valinor place."

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar walked in wearing spiffy lawyer suspenders and carrying a breif case with 900 pages of arguments. "Well the ring didnt have much of a lasting affect on frodo did it? Are you calling frodo eru?!?!?!? Maybe Tom bombadil was an older and wiser maia than gandalf, more alike to the valar, one who contributed to the themes of eru. The encyclopedia of arda explains tommy bombadil as A mysterious and powerful being, called by the Elves Iarwain Ben-adar (Oldest and Fatherless), who dwelt in the valley of the Withywindle, east of the Shire.

Eru was nobodys father. He did not give birth to the valar. In truth each being is of erus own mind. He cannot be eru for eru is called Iluvatar by the elves." anamatar sat back down and went through his pages.

[YayGollum]

*Truor leans back in his chair, proud of his rusty, clanking, hodge-podge armor, and sets down his doodles of the life of Gollum* "Now, why do you say that the Ring didn't have a lasting effect on Frodo? Did you not notice all of the weird things it did to him when he had it? Or are you just saying that it didn't have any lasting affect on him later? That was because the Ring was destroyed by Gollum later. Nothing was affecting him anymore. oh well. Anyways, who cares if he was also called Iarwain Ben-adar (Oldest and Fatherless)? You didn't know that elves give lots of names to lots of different people?"

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora turns her head sidewards and looks at Truor's drawings. "Hey these are pretty goo.... umm, I mean.. uh.. good arguments, you guys..." *pulls out some papers and writes important things down with the uttmost concentration on the argument*

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar took out of his breif case a new discipline wand and cracked it over truors head. Too bad it was too thick for him to feel it ;). "Yes the elves did give many names but they only called eru Iluvatar. Just as they only called the valar by their proper names.

[YayGollum]

*Truor's helmet (not head. Argh!) softened the blow of the evil wand thingy, which he didn't really feel like getting rid of this time* "Why do you think that the elves only had that one name for Eru? They've definitely come up with more than one name for some of the Valar! And this is obviously Eru we're talking about, so he obviously has more than one name from the elveses. Why would they call some Maia thingy the oldest and fatherless if Eru was the oldest and didn't have a dad? Nothing seems to me to be a dad to Eru in any way, unlike the Valar and Maiar."

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar flipped through some more files. "AH! Here we go! Treebeard, otherwise known as fangorn, was considered the oldest ent. Ents were considered the oldest beings. Talked to by the elves and awoken from their treeish sleep in the first days of the elves. Those elves HAD to be older than the ents if they awoke them. What this means is that oldest has NOTHING WHATS SO EVER about being the 1st being. Its about how long youve been alive. At the time the ents were awoken iluvatar was still in valinor. We know this because at the time Aule brought the idea of dwarves to Eru. Meaning treebeard was older than eru. Which also means---that since the maia came to Middle-earth when the elves awoke---that tommy was there before eru!"

[ILLOTRTM]

"Ooooh, nice one!"

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar sat contently in his debating chair. He pulled a thick slice of pi out of his breifcase and tried to solve the endless enigma. Then he took out a sandwhich and ate it. He thought to himself..."I wonder how aule got that hammer...*shudders at the idea creeping into his head*

[YayGollum]

"Correction. Ents are considered the longest lived. They aren't immortal like elves. They turn back into trees after a while. I'm sure that Treebeard wasn't one of the first to show up, since he talks about Ents that have already grown and gone back to sleep before him.
Anyways, I've never heard of an Ent (or anything else) that's been given the title of the oldest thing around. I would think that they'd only give that title to the real oldest thing around.
And you're forgetting about the fatherless thing. Even the Valar and Maiar have a father of sorts. The elves knew that. Eru is the only dude around who didn't have a dad in any way. Argh!
Why do you think that the Ents woke up while Eru was talking to Aule? Yavanna came up with the idea for them after Aule's talk with Eru. oh well.
Also, I'm arguing that Tom was Eru, so I would have to say that no, Tom didn't go to Middle Earth with the rest of the Valar and Maiar. He showed up at an unspecified time as weird little dude with yellow boots." *falls back on his chair and takes a huge gulp of v&f*

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar flipped through some more papers. Obviously this stubborn little gollum was very stubborn. He sipped his flaming homer and pulled out another sheet. "Well well well. If Bombadil was Eru then what do you make of this?Naked I was sent back-until my task was done...

we know that gandalf came to Iluvatar and it was eru that sent him back. How would he be sent back if he had only gone to Bombadils house? If you will say he went back to the peak then read you this!

And I wandered far on roads that I will not tell...

whats so bad that GANDALF wouldnt talk about going to tommy bombadils?:confused: "

[YayGollum]

"Okay, dude. I'm no Gollum. I'm the king of the Beornings, for your information. I kind of thought that Gandalf was sent back by the Valar. He showed up in the Halls of Mandos when he died. I thought that Mandos sent him back. Or Manwe or somebody. They were the dudes who sent Gandalf in the first place. I doubt that Eru was around to be doing tedious little things like bringing people back to life when he appointed all of these Valar to do this work for him. oh well."

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar walked over to the overhead and put up a very detailed and graphic screen of when beren died. "As you see here Mandos sent beren to Manwe for council." anamatar whacked the very point of the over head with the discipline wand. "Manwe-although closest in thought to eru-was not eru." anamatar whacked a different point. "Manwe sought Iluvatar for council. And eru said to beren AND Luthien (for they ad both died) if Beren should be brought back to life Luthien Tinuviel would become mortal. So indeed eru was the one doing the judgeing!" anamatar turned off the over head and made a note--->Truor is king of Bear/Human shape shifters. BEWARE OF HIS BEAR SIDE<--

[YayGollum]

"Nah. You don't have to worry about my bear side. I hardly ever turn into a bear because I'm only a little black bear. Not very frightening. Anyways, yes, Manwe did talk to Eru about life or death type things, but it has been said that Manwe can talk to Eru through crazy telepathy scariness. Manwe just talked to Tom while he was hugging a tree or something in the Old Forest."

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar is worried about how truor can read his thoughts. "nooooooo! The maia cannot communicate with the valar telepathetically...thing. Manwe sought eru!!!! When the Numenoreans waged war on Iluvatar they sailed WESt. not EAST but WEST." anamatar sat back down and wrote another memo that truot COULD NOT READ --->bear is against tree huggers but no against dumping his waste on trees;) <---

[YayGollum]

"I have no idea if the Maiar dudes can talk to the Valar dudes telepathically, but I do know that Manwe can do that with Eru. Sure, Manwe sought Eru. Sought him in the hard for humans to understand plains of thought that only gods can fathom. Or something like that. :rolleyes: Ummm...what do the Numenoreans have to do with this? Anyways, they weren't trying to start a war with Eru. They were trying to start a war with the Valar." *gets up and takes Anamatar's notepad* "Whatchu writing about?" *reads the craziness* "I never said that I hated tree huggers. I have great respect for Radagast. And where do you respond to that particular call of nature when you're out in the wilderness somewhere?"

[Anamatar IV]

Anamatar stood up as well *with the wand in hand* "Try in the plastic bottle!" anamatar walked over with somemore notes. "If bombadil was eru then why the bloody ell didnt he fix the old forest? And you havent said anything that denies he was a maia. Youve just been countering me. give ME the chance to do that!:mad: :rolleyes: ;)

[Anamatar IV]

hey I opt for an easier debate. I know this one will challenge us both to the brink of our debating skills but the real truth is Tolkien didnt know and didnt want anyone to know. There are dozens or options. It is a debate that I have read paragraph long essays about to 30 page long essays. We will never know and I have nothing else on this topic. What we are trying to debate on is our beleifs. We cant find info on our beliefs that will support our case. So I give up-you win-lets choose something EASIER.

[YayGollum]

"He didn't fix the Old Forest because he was having fun. For some reason, he was just sitting tight, hanging out with Goldberry, singing at trees, being happy go lucky all over the place while he let the Valar worry about the upkeep of the world. I don't know why he did that. He's in charge. He gets to do whatever he wants. Anyways, Yay for countering your arguements! :D You could always come up with some good evidence that I can't deny."

[Anamatar IV]

okay. How about we have a debate on the greatest elf. Disregard the thread in the sil forum. just what do ~you~ think. I will choose...tough choice...Gil-Galad!

[YayGollum]

"Oh, so, you're giving up on the Tom Bombadil debate? I win? Should we let the records say that Truor Tupnm has won the first ever debate in this place? :D Anyways, Ick. Evil elves! Is there any other debate you'd rather have? I could care less about most elves. If I had to pick a favorite, it would be Eol, just because he's different, but I doubt I could make anyone believe that he was the greatest of the elves. Most people don't like him."

[Anamatar IV]

fine. Not greatest elf. Im not good at picking debates!

[YayGollum]

"Okay, how's about we debate about another classic. Was the Ring sentient? You can pick whichever side you want again."

[Anamatar IV]

been there. Done that. Ive already debated about it. I know where to find all the arguments. Thats not a good one. You wouldnt even need to think. But why not. I say the ring CAN think for itself. And the judge can make sure we dont use the arguments from that other debate (pm me cora if you dont know where)

[YayGollum]

Hey, I don't even know where! Doesn't really matter, though. I could always use the search function. Well, if that's too boring, we could always debate about something else. I'm kind of out of ideas right now. just a minute.

[ILLOTRTM]

Oh, don't do that one... been done SO many times...

[YayGollum]

Yeah, it is pretty boring by now. oh well. My brain is tired right now. Exams at school. sorry about that. Argh! We need more people in here! Go advertise or something! *collapses*

[ILLOTRTM]

*pokes Truor* Well, ok.. I'll go hang a sign or something. You guys recruit customers too!

[YayGollum]

"Yikes! Who recruited that dude? Poor guy! He definitely wasn't drinking v&f!" *walks outside to look for the crazy Confusticated dude*

[Anamatar IV]

ooc-confusticated is a girl!!!

ic-Okay i think ranuial has spent a bit too much time in the misty hollow inn ;)

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora looks out of the door at Confusticated and Truor. "ummm... ok, what just happened? :confused: :D

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar looked at cora. "Why that was a respectable elf! Just drank a bit of disrespectful drinks. :rolleyes: " anamatar sat down on a bean bag. "Not a single debate!"

[Nóm]

*Confustucated wakes up and rubs her eyes*
"Hello, I guess I had a little too much to drink. What is this I hear about me being a respectable Elf Anamatar? I'm human. If you guys ever want someone to join in the debates, I'm willing. I'll stop by later on, after I've had a few hours sleep."

[Anamatar IV]

ranuial. hes an elf. He spent a bit too much time in misty hollow after that wizard was killed ;) " anamatar gulped his own drink. "Quite a shame to see a "good" elf like this..."

[Nóm]

"But I am not Ranuial I am Confusticated. Ranuial does not get drunk and make a fool of himself. Anyone decided what the next debate will be? Or if I will be involved in it?" :D

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora looks out the door. "Anymore coming? Oh well.... you guys started another debate yet?

[YayGollum]

OOC: I knew that the Confusticated person was a girl. Ack! Poor Smeagol. I'm just evil, I guess. oh well.

IC: "Are we debating about who this person really is? If not, how's about somebody come up with something else? I haven't come up with one yet. Yeah, I feel bad." :rolleyes:

[Nóm]

"Well, we could debate about who I am, but I think I would win regardless of your position. There is something I have often wondered about..."
*Confusticated takes a seat and asks Cora for a coffee*
"Some say that back during the War of the Ring, the dark lord Sauron did not know that the distruction of this ring would bring him sudden death. But others, they say that Sauron must have known that he would die the moment this Ring fell into the fires of Mt. Doom. Now we could argue this, I will let my opponent choose their side. What do you guys say?"

[Anamatar IV]

*hangs head in shame* the newest person to the debate bar chooses the best debate (;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ) okay let me think. I will choose the yes-he did know that th destruction of the ring would cause him sudden "death."'

anamatar started blankly at confusticated. "A MAIA CANT DIE!!! I THOUGHT *YOU* KNEW THAT!!!!;)

[ILLOTRTM]

"Oooh! A debate! YAY!" Cora gets a coffee too and sits down next to Confusticated and listenes intently.

[Nóm]

"I say that No, Sauron did not know that the destruction of the ring would mean his own immediate destruction. When Gandalf first spoke with Frodo Baggins about the One Ring he said this....
And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished;that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it.

...Sauron could not have thought that the One Ring had been destroyed if he knew it would mean his own destruction."
*checks Anamatar's reaction*
"Have someone assist you, if you'd like."

[Anamatar IV]

but if sauron didnt know about it then why did he send the nazgul to mt doom when frodo was on the brink of destroying it?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
but if sauron didnt know about it then why did he send the nazgul to mt doom when frodo was on the brink of destroying it?
"He wanted to save his ring. He would never want it destroyed, so he sent a nazgul to grab it before it was destroyed and lost to Sauron for ever."

[Anamatar IV]

"Ofcourse sauron would understand. If he didnt know that the particular ring might destroy him he couldve made a new ring. A ring that he could use in its stead. but he knew that his power would be gone if he lost the one ring."

[Nóm]

"You reason that because Sauron did not make another Ring to replace his One Ring that means that he knew he would be destroyed when the One Ring was destroyed. Yes?"
"The purpose of Sauron's Ring was to control the other rings. The elven rings lost their power with the destruction of the One Ring , and that proves that the One Ring did have power over the elven rings. So for Sauron to create another ring with this same ability, it would have to be even more powerful than the One Ring. Why? Because control of the elven Rings was granted to the One Ring, so any new Ring would have to control the one ring as well..or at least render it useless somehow."

"Sauron lost a great part of his power to the One Ring, therefore he didn't have enough power left to spare for another Ring."
*sips coffee*
"Anamatar, don't you have a friend who will be joining us? I hope she arrives soon. I did not give quotes, but if you would like to me prove with a quote anything I have said about the information in the story I can."
(For example: that a great part of Sauron's power went into the One Ring)

[Anamatar IV]

ooc-I feel like you just dropped me the biggest hint out of mercy ever. But I am too stupid to find it :rolleyes: ;)

ic:

Anamatar threw out thousands of papers from his breifcase. "Where the bloody ell is SHE!!!!" Anamatar found a paper that he was looking for. "Since sauron put forth most of his power into the ring I would think he would know that losing his ring (or losing all his power) would cause him to be destroyed." *phew* (atleast thats what i THOUGHT you meant be that hint :p )

[Nóm]

"You say that he put 'most' of his power into the Ring..so you admit that he still had some of his power with him. A moment later you said this though...
I would think he would know that losing his ring (or losing all his power) would cause him to be destroyed.
....The Ring did not contain all of his power though, so you must show that Sauron knew that the distruction of the power which he still had would be the result of the destruction of his ring (which was, as you admit, only a portion of his power)."

[Nenya Evenstar]

The door slammed open, and Nenya entered the bar practically running. "Please forgive me for being so late!" she said apologetically to Anamatar. "I was caught up and behind in so many thing... my life is very busy right now, and I have only just now gotten caught up. But, I am here now. Hello, Conf!" she smiled broadly.

"Anything I can get you?" asked Cora from behind the bar.

"Uhhh... yes please! Could I have a water?" The desired refreshment was produced, and Nenya went over to sit by Anamatar. "Now where are we? Let's see...." She was given a quick description of the debate so far. "My dear Confusticated! You really can't believe that Sauron was not aware of his own danger! :p Just a moment ago you reasoned this:
The Ring did not contain all of his power though, so you must show that Sauron knew that the distruction of the power which he still had would be the result of the destruction of his ring (which was, as you admit, only a portion of his power).
You must admit that since a good deal of Sauron's power went into the Ring, he would know that if it was by any chance destroyed then he would have at least been majorly crippled. And who, when the largest part of them is destroyed, can rebuild themselves? They cannot. Sauron knew this, and he knew that if the Ring were destroyed he would in no way be able to survive. He would become nothing more than a mere spirit unable to take shape because his power would be gone - and this is exactly what happened." Nenya took a long drink of her water to watch Confusticated soak it in. "Also, note this quote from The Return of the King:
And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.
Notice the bold part. Sauron feared. What did he fear? A small hobbit who had claimed the One Ring as his own? No! He feared the destruction that could happen any minute should that Ring fall into the cracks of Mount Doom. I am afraid that if he did not know that should the Ring be destroyed he would pass away then he would have laughed at the little twit standing in his lands. But as it was, he knew his peril and did all he could do to stop it. He knew that he would perish should that Ring perish." Nenya took another drink after her long rant.

[Nóm]

"You say that I must admit that Sauron would have known that he would at least be severely cripped by the dectruction of the ring, yet Gandalf himself said that Sauron had thought the ring was destroyed. I trust Gandalf's wisdom over my own.
Also, crippled and destroyed are two different things. Sauron lost some of his power to the Ring when he made it. So when he was parted from
the One Ring (formerly his own power)he was already crippled, that power was no longer within himself...this means that he could have easily thought that the Ring being destroyed would not effect the power which he retained.
When someone puts a part of themself into something the ruin of that thing does not generally go hand in hand with that person's own ruin. Melkor put much of his power into his orcs and other creations, yet he survived just fine as many of them were destroyed. A thousand orcs could be destroyed and Melkor himself would not be further depleted or destroyed...only his army would be lessend. So your reasoning that because the power of the ring was once the power of Saruon means that Sauron had to have known that he would die along with it has no other examples of this thing happening to back it up. What could Sauron have based such reasoning on? In his experience such things (creations being destroyed = creator being destroyed) did not happen.
You say...
And who, when the largest part of them is destroyed, can rebuild themselves? They cannot.
...But first of all, it is said that Sauron put a great part of his power into the Ring, it didn't say the greatest (meaning more than he himself kept).
After Sauron was first diminished and sundered from his ring it took many years for him to take shape again and even still his power was less than it once was."
*yawns and stretches*
"I'm glad you've arrived Nenya.
As for that quote you provide from ROTK...it is open to interpretation. As for this...
He feared the destruction that could happen any minute should that Ring fall into the cracks of Mount Doom. I am afraid that if he did not know that should the Ring be destroyed he would pass away then he would have laughed at the little twit standing in his lands.
The notion of Sauron laughing at the destruction of the ring even if he didn't know that he would die too, is absurd. Of course he feared the destruction of the Ring, it was the thing he most needed, the one thing that would assure his success....so...
Sauron feared. What did he fear? A small hobbit who had claimed the One Ring as his own?
He went from knowing that victory was his to realizing that it may not be his, that his greatest weapon was about to be destroyed, and that he himself might take a deadly beating. That is what he feared."

[ILLOTRTM]

"oooh, that's gonna be a tough one to counter, Anamatar!" *finishes coffee... then takes another v&f*

[Anamatar IV]

Anamatar glared at nenya and whispered "while you were gone I had to fend myself against a JOuRNEYMAN tolkienologist~!!!! IM ONLY AN APPRETNICE;) " Anamatar stood up. "You say that crippled and destroyed are entirely different things. But are they not the same for a maia? The maiar cannot be killed so the greatest hurt that something could do to them would be to cripple their bodily self. He would not be entirely destroyed but he would be unable to present himself in a form of bod or malice. When he got all scared up there in barad-dur because the ring was gonna die he knew he would be CRIPPLED FOR ETERNITY. Which, in terms of the maiar, means to be destroyed. If gandalf said that he did not know he could be destroyed sauron may have known that he couldve been crippled.

[Nóm]

"It is true what you say, that a crippling might mean destruction for a maia. However, when I say that crippling is different than destruction I mean that to be crippled is something that can happen on a variety of levels whereas destruction happens on one. If you're destroyed you're destroyed...but if you are crippled you are lessend to ANY degree...be it a tiny, moderate, or severe. Sauron was moderately crippled when part of his power went into the One Ring. That power was now with the One Ring...so why would Sauron think that he'd be severely crippled if the power that is no longer within himself were destroyed? Anamatar, Nenya...after you guys have ripped my first arguement apart I will present more evidence."
"I hope you're enjoying this Cora, this is a great bar you have here. The best around. Thank you very much for opening it. You will always have a faithful costumer in me."

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya leaned her back onto the bar counter and smiled. Taking a sip of her water she asked Cora, "Do you actually think that Confusticated's last argument will be that difficult to counter? :D I'd like a Mtn. Dew please... didn't get enough sleep last night because I spent it in your bar. Go ahead and put in some extra caffeine."

Nenya turned her attention to Confusticated. "There is one thing that you don't seem to remember: The One Ring and Sauron were One. They were not two separate identities. Sauron was not crippled in any way shape or form when he created the One Ring in the first place. Only after he lost it was he crippled, and that was because he no longer had any access to his Ring. So, I beg to differ with you in your saying that that power was no longer in him for it was still very much a part of him." Nenya took a long gulp of Mtn. Dew. "Ahhh... this stuff helps!"
The notion of Sauron laughing at the destruction of the ring even if he didn't know that he would die too, is absurd. Of course he feared the destruction of the Ring, it was the thing he most needed, the one thing that would assure his success....so...
"But Confusticated! I never said that Sauron would laugh at the destruction of the Ring - I said he would laugh if he had not known of his danger. Ok, well perhaps not laugh, but I'm sure that he would not have been nearly as frightened as he was. He was only frightened because he knew that Frodo could destroy the Ring, and with that destruction would come his own destruction. If he had not known that the destruction of the Ring would be his own downfall then I'm sure he would have found room in his black heart for a chuckle or two at the impudent hobbit for trying to claim his prize - even though there was the chance of destroying it. Why would he be so worried if he had thought that he could survive the destruction of the Ring? Sure, he would be bummed out, but he also would have thought that he could rebuild his power after that destruction - at least that is what you are leading me to try to believe. In other words, he would not have been nearly as frightened.

"So, my quote is open to interpretation?" Nenya smiled. "Then by all means, please interpret it! And I'm glad you're glad that I'm here." ;)

[Anamatar IV]

*tosses run silent, run deep out the window* I could probably get a few credits just by reading those long posts! :rolleyes:

To back up Nenyas argument I have come to realise this (btw---I dont know where my books are {hang me at the gallows} so i cant exactly look up the quotes. BUT I WILL GET SOLID EVIDENCE LATER!!!) Sauron was bending all his wil towards getting the ring. He knew that he was in danger while the west had it. If he was worried that the lord of gondor would come forth too powerful then he was a bit on the drunken side!!! he had corrupted so many great people SO EASILY. Saruman, Tar-Atanamir, the rest of the true numenoreans, 9 kings of men, other maiar...he would not worry about corrupting one more. But he knew that the elves of the west knew that if the ring would be destroyed he would be banished from ME and probably reunited with his master in the void. So he wasnt worried about Gondor using the ring but rather gondor destroying it (I just know confusticated is gonna make me regret that last line :rolleyes: )

[Nóm]

"Indeed I will Anamatar, if Sauron had been worried that the Ring would be destroyed he woud have been watching Mt Doom like a hawk. Or an Eagle of Manwe..either way he would have been watching it."
"Nenya, Nenya, Nenya..where do I begin?...
There is one thing that you don't seem to remember: The One Ring and Sauron were One. They were not two separate identities.
It would seem that they were one once we found out that the destruction of the Ring ment the direct ruin of Sauron..however we did not know this for sure until it happend. ...Cora can I get a dark ale?"
*pulls a silver coin out of her pocket and sets it on the table*

"And this Nenya..
"But Confusticated! I never said that Sauron would laugh at the destruction of the Ring - I said he would laugh if he had not known of his danger.
a moment later you say....
I'm sure he would have found room in his black heart for a chuckle or two at the impudent hobbit for trying to claim his prize - even though there was the chance of destroying it. Why would he be so worried if he had thought that he could survive the destruction of the Ring?
I've already explain why and I will not do so again. Go back and look.
you then say..
Sure, he would be bummed out, but he also would have thought that he could rebuild his power after that destruction - at least that is what you are leading me to try to believe.
Bummed out?..hehehe yeah. I think Sauron would be ulta-bummed about losing his ring.
I say rather that Sauron didn't think that he would lose the power which was still within him and not in the One Ring. Re-read my posts if you must...but I never said that he thought he would build up his power again after the Ring were destroyed.
Though you have not hindered my initial arguement I will present more evidence for my side because it is getting old doing only defense. After Gandalf learned that Sauron learned about the One Ring, we find that when Frodo wears the Ring the radar of Sauron and his wraiths goes off.
When Frodo wore the Ring atop Amon Hen Sauron nearly found him...and Frodo only wore the Ring for a little while then. Bilbo wore the ring for long amounts of time while he was in and around Mikwood not far from Sauron. He walked around with the thing for days in Thranduil's halls.
If Sauron had been searching for the Ring back then surely he would have found Bilbo or at least been aware of him and the Ring. Sauron was not though, he only found out about his ring years later from Gollum. It wasn't until Sauron learned that his Ring was still in existance and had been found that he began to search for it.
Why wasn't Sauron searching for his ring years earlier? Simply because he though is was destroyed (as gandalf said). The fact that he was alive and thought his Ring was destroyed proves that he didnt know he'd be destroyed when the Ring was destroyed.

[Anamatar IV]

But the war of the ring did not include the rest of the 3rd age. The original argument was whether or not sauron knew about it during THE WAR OF THE RING. After gollum told him that it was not destroyed he came to realize what would happen if it were destroyed.

[Nóm]

"Sauron realized that he would be destroyed as a direct result of the Ring's destruction only after he learned from Gollum that the Ring was fine and dandy and had been found ? Prove this."

[Anamatar IV]

*pst...Confusticated. Can I have your books for a second*

[Nóm]

"Anamatar, I will tell you this: The debate has gone on for a little while and I think it could end very soon now. I think you could give an answer that will satisfy me..and I will call the debate even. Give a little thought to the things you have already said, You do not need your book to wrap this up. In my opinion you are heading in the right direction now. I do not know exactly what Cora had in mind when she opend this bar, but I imagine she doesn't want 3 costumers to stick with the same arguement and hog her establishment while it lasts" :D

[Anamatar IV]

Again I think youre dropping me a hint. Let me think. How could I wrap this up without the books? *pst. Confy...what few posts are you refering to? I think youre giving me a hint...*" anamatar through out some more papers. Well...I GOT IT!!! The end of the War of the rings was when Frodo was on Mt. Doom. Meaning that when the ring fell in it was still the war of the rings. So when sauron noticed gollum teetering in he knew he was gonna fall into ruin. He knew that. So that was during the war of the rings when that happened.

[YayGollum]

*Truor leans back and drinks more v&f, wondering how much longer the boring debate will go on* :rolleyes: "Yes, and I'm thinking of a new one!"

[Anamatar IV]

its only boring cuz youre not in it!!! :mad: ;) You can help Cora with her judging." anamatar ran into the dressing room and came out in a spiffy white shirt, black pants, and RAINBOW suspenders. "NOW I can debate!" :rolleyes:

[Nóm]

"Anamatar, you didn't prove anything with those words. You must either give proof that Sauron knew , or tell a very good reason that he probably knew (or figured it out;)). Anamatar, either, how would Sauron have known (or figured it out ;))? Or, what shows that he knew?"

[ILLOTRTM]

"Anamatar, I admire you're work, however I'm very impressed with Confusticated!" *takes a long drink of v&f* "Truor, feel free to judge with me, however, these guys fight too fair! Though I am starting to wonder about things with all of these fancy clothes.... ;)

[YayGollum]

"Sorry about that, Anamatar! It didn't interest me too much. I never was a fan of trying to figure Sauron out. But I know what the Confusticated person is trying to tell you!" :rolleyes:

OOC: I think that the Confusticated person has the right idea about this bar, dudes. Why are we using RPG characters? They wouldn't know all of the stuff we're debating about since they didn't have the books! oh well. :rolleyes:

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by ILLOTRTM
"Anamatar, I admire you're work, however I'm very impressed with Confusticated!" *takes a long drink of v&f* "Truor, feel free to judge with me, however, these guys fight too fair! Though I am starting to wonder about things with all of these fancy clothes.... ;)

Oh this was a fight???" anamatar picks up a folding chair and whacks confy over the head with it (;) )

[YayGollum]

*grabs the chair from the evil Anamatar* "What's wrong with you, crazy person? Fighting too fair is an expression! Yikes! You are way too violent!" to Cora ---> "No thanks. If I have to be anything in here, it'd be the bouncer, just to stop Anamatar from having fun with destruction."

[ILLOTRTM]

*shrugs* "suit yourself." *mumbling* "How is it I'm always stuck with the no-action jobs....."

[YayGollum]

"Well, who's idea was it to even have judges in a debate bar? Your's, I thought. oh well. We don't need judges! We can just have people having fun with arguing! How's about we debate about something while they're doing their thing? It'd be confusing for people who don't know what's going on!" :D

[ILLOTRTM]

"Well.... I dunno..." *shifty eyes* "Truth be told, I'm not very good at debating, I just watch!"

[YayGollum]

"Okay, fine. Then why are you whining about having no action? I suggested action and you rejected action. oh well. You need more action! You're not action packed! Yay action! Ick. I said it too many times!" :rolleyes:

[Nóm]

"Anamatar, do not hit me again! Look at things from Sauron's point of view. What things might have clicked in his head which caused him to realize that he would probably or maybe even certainly die? I really have no more arguements for me side, I am just waiting for you to cover some things for your side which I think are very important evidence that Sauron could have figured it out. What things could have happend that would cause Sauron to think he might be destroyed along with the Ring? What would have been his reasoning?
I'm glad you enjoy this Cora, but do not worry Gollum, the debate will be over soon. If he doesn't figure this out soon I will ask if he wants me to tell him what I think. EVEN THOUGH HIT ME IN THE HEAD WITH A CONFOUNDED CHAIR!!"

[YayGollum]

*wheels around to eye the crazy Confusticated person* "Argh! Why do people keep calling me Gollum? I am Truor Tupnm! King of the Beornings! oh well."

OOC: Did anybody pay attention to that other OOC I made? But then, I would be YayGollum, still not Gollum. I would never be able to live up to the coolness of Tolkien's greatest character! :eek:

[Nóm]

Truor, I realized that your name is Truor but I called you Gollum because you pointed out that it made sense that we not use are RP charactors. I guess I should have said YayGollum. Why don't you hit me over the head with a chair and we'll call it even.

[Anamatar IV]

okay. I feel like a total idiot but I STILL DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE REFERRING TO!! And I was influenced by the laker-kings game last night with the chair thing.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya sits up suddenly from where she has fallen asleep. "Ack! What happened, how much did I miss? Oh, and people, no one said anything about my arguments though they were spaced few and far between." :rolleyes: She looks at Anamatar. "To tell you the truth, I do not know what Confusticated is referring to right off the top of my head, so I'll try to make a convincing argument out of thin air." *twirls a ring around her finger for a moment*

"Ok, so here we go! Confusticated, I am not going to make a rebuttle for your last arguments against me even though I can think of a million. To tell you the truth, I'm just a wee bit bored with this debate." *drinks some water* "So you ask us: What things could have happend that would cause Sauron to think he might be destroyed along with the Ring? What would have been his reasoning? Well, since I am just picking things out of thin air I think I'll pick that one with the sliver top. :D Let's see, the thing that sticks out most to me is that when Sauron was defeated the first time by Gil-Galad and Elendil his strength and power was diminished immensely. Why? Because he lost the One Ring. Now, of course he thought before the War of the Ring that the Ring had been destroyed, and so we can conclude from that that at that time he did not know that the destruction of the Ring would mean his own downfall. However, he found out during The War of the Ring that the Ring had NOT been destroyed. What was he then supposed to assume? That should the Ring be destroyed he would simply lose power again? No! He would know that since his power had been so greatly diminished after just losing the Ring after his first defeat that he would be much more drastically hurt should the Ring actually be destroyed. From this I conclude that Sauron would have done the math and figured out that he would be a gonner should the Ring be destroyed."

Nenya took another sip of water and grinned. "That is what I will leave you with Confusticated."

[Anamatar IV]

anamatar looked up from his paper football making. "oh, yeah. BRAVO!!!!" he sat back contently (sp) thinking about WHAT THE HINT CONFY DROPPED ME MIGHT HAVE BEEN. and about the next debate.

[Nóm]

"Well Nenya that was pretty close to one of the angles that I thought you two should take. I don't apreciate you telling me that you can think of a million arguements against my last and then not naming some. What kind of bull is this? :mad: :confused: Well since you have reasoned one of two things that I was hoping for, I say we can end this debate. Anamatar, do you have anything to add? Anyhow..It's been fun..and thanks a lot Cora. Hopefully everyone Included Truor will enjoy the next debate. If you ever want me back for another debate, just send a message."

:D

[Anamatar IV]

nope. NOthing more to add. It was fun. BRAINSTORM TIME!!!

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Hey, Confusticated! Many, many thanks for the debate. As for me saying the part about thinking up arguments I can do it... I just didn't think you wanted me to since it would drag out the debate. To tell you the truth, I hadn't given the arguments that much thought, and that is why I didn't post them. And who knows? Maybe they would have come out as a bunch of bull." :D

"But anyway, it was great to debate with you, and I must say that you did a wonderful job." Nenya glanced at Anamatar. "To tell you the truth you convinced me that Sauron did not know that the destruction of the Ring would mean his own downfall. So congratulations to Confusticated, the winner of this debate!!!!!!!" Nenya gave her a bow. :D

[Anamatar IV]

yeah. He probably didnt. *bows down but falls over* congrats. Whats the next debate?

[YayGollum]

"Yikes! That Confusticated person seemed a little peeved! Maybe I'm just crazy. oh well. Was she invited in the first place? I didn't know. Anyways, I haven't been able to come up with any original debates yet. sorry about that. Someone did suggest that I try to start one of those crazy hypothetical situation debates. Like, what would have happened if Gandalf didn't fall down with the balrog? Or something like that. Know what I mean?"

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya stands up and stretches her arms. "Hey, can I have another water, Cora?" Cora hands her the water. "I know exactly what you are meaning, Yay! I think a debate like that would be a good idea, actually, because that way anyone stopping by could stick their noses into the debate and add something as the topic would be so wide and the possibilities endless. It might get crazy, but I think it would be fun." She smiles and sips her water.

[ILLOTRTM]

"Hey, that sounds good!" Cora takes a long drink from her v&f "That would be something I could debate about without needing many facts! It's like a here, have a debate where you don't have to think kind of debate... yeah...." :rolleyes: :D

[Anamatar IV]

you guys can debate on that one. Ill just watch.

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Well," says Nenya complacently, "if anyone is game I'll debate. I'm ready anytime for a spanking good argument!" She sits down and takes out a pack of cards. "Wanna play, Anamatar?" She begins shuffling.

[Maedhros]

Hmmmmmmm.
I may have to try this bar, and see how the debates are.

[Anamatar IV]

theyre good debates mead. Just too advanced for an apprentice. :( ;)

[ILLOTRTM]

"Well, it's a good bar, I'm glad it's catching on!" *notices Nenya's cards*
"Oooh oh! Lemme shuffle!" *does a big huge shuffling trick and then puts them back down on the table* :D:D:D "There you go, all shuffled!"

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya stops her card playing abruptly. "Why hello there Meadhros!!! If it isn't my mentor! ;)" Nenya gets up and gives him a small bow. "Good to see you!"

"Thanks, Cora!" Nenya starts a game of Solitare. :D

[Nóm]

"Truor, i was not invited. I just seen that you guys were looking for more people. I did give you ample chance to tell me to get lost."

[YayGollum]

"Got it. Well, no, I wouldn't want you to feel left out. :rolleyes: Stay a while. Now, why isn't there a debate going on? I thought that I just suggested one that you people liked. oh well. You want another hypothetical thingy? How's about would it have been better if Aragorn had not gone after Merry and Pippin?

[Nóm]

Well, it was very considerate of you not to throw me out of the bar because you thought I would feel left out.
But not quite as considerate as telling me all of this after the fact though. NO, that is the ultimate act of consideration.
I guess I should have thought of this as an RP rather than a normal thread. Ah well...I'm not in the RP circle, I didn't know that bars had the same rules about participation.
Hmmm..maybe I'm not the only one whos done wrong here?..Ah, just a crazy thought.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya scratches her head with confusion. "I was invited... but am I invited to stay? Do bars have the same rules as RP's? I know that some bars are by invitation only, but some are completely open!" She looks at Tuor questioningly, and then turns her gaze to Cora.

"While you are contemplating an answer to that, I will go ahead and open up another debate. I'll pick a general topic so that anyone who is walking by can stick their nose into the debate. This is the topic I have chosen, naturally suggested by the wonderful Tuor, however a little changed: Would the War of the Ring have followed relatively the same course as it did had Gandalf not fallen down into the abyss with the Balrog?"

Nenya orders another water and sips it. "Anyone who is game, feel free to begin! I will debate against you or for you depending on where I am needed."

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora FINNALY puts down her v&f and looks around confused at everyone! "Hey, I'll tell you what, this bar is open to EVERYONE! I don't like most invitational things! They aren't fair. There... really aren't RULES to the bar, I just put it in role playing for because it was easier and more fun for me! Everyone can do what they want, but it's fun for me!" Cora has a seat next to Nenya "Well, I think things would have been a lot different if Gandalf stuck around! He would have all kinds of smart decisions that would have saved everybody!"

[Nenya Evenstar]

"That's good to know about the bar.... That's how I thought it was, but people confused me." She listens to Cora. "Well, do you really think that it would have been all good? Remember that he would not have been made Gandalf the White. Imagine what would have happened then!" She sips her water.

[YayGollum]

Well, I still don't know if this is supposed to be an IC bar or not. It looks like the one in charge of this bar is IC, but she just said that there aren't any rules. Yay! That works. Why not? Anyways, I think that I was the one who confused a few people around here. Didn't mean to. I don't even remember saying anything about letting certain people in. oh well. sorry if I messed with anybody's brain. To the debate!
I have no idea what would have happened if Gandalf didn't fall with the balrog. It was just a crazy hypothetical situation I came up with. Whoops! :rolleyes: Well, we all agree that things would turn out waaay differently. How's about we choose sides like would it have been good or bad?

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Sounds like a plan to me! And you did confuse me.... :D" Nenya shakes her head and flicks some of her water at Tuor (Yay, or whoever you are). "Oh well! I think that this is an IC bar, but I'm not sure either. Hey Cora!" Nenya turns to the barmaid, "is this an IC bar?"

"Ok," she begins talking about the debate, "I'll head up the team that believes things would have been worse had Gandalf not fell with the Balrog. Who's on my team?"

[ILLOTRTM]

"I want to be on your team! Well, this i kind of an either/or bar, you can be IC if you want! I like it that way!"

[YayGollum]

Well, I don't know which side I'm on, so I guess I'll have to go for the other one just so we can start something. I say that it would have been better for the Fellowship if Gandalf didn't fall! Argh! Why not?
He could have gone to Lothlorien. He would have seen some more weird stuff in that mirror thingy.
He might have been able to stop Merry and Pippin from being captured and Boromir from dying.
The Fellowship would have been around until the Ring was destroyed. Gollum wouldn't have been captured because he'd stay farther away.
Gandalf would go through Shelob's place and they would have killed Shelob or she just wouldn't show up.
I don't know what would have happened at Mount Doom, but Gollum wouldn't have been able to become the Hero in the end. He probably would have still tried to get the Ring, but he would have been stopped and the Gollum half would be gone when the Ring was destroyed. Smeagol would be back and he'd get to go with the other nasssty hobbitses to that stinky elf place.
Is that enough good stuff?

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Hehehe... Cora!" Nenya stands up and gives the bar tender a curtsey, "And we thank you for being the host of such a wonderful bar!" :D Nenya takes a big gulp of her water and then begins.

"So hooray! The debate has started! Cora and me against Yay Gollum... at least that is how it stands at this moment. Hmmm... The main problem I have with your theory is that you neglect the fact the Gandalf would not have Gandalf the White.... and ok! This debate topic is FAR too general. And it was my idea. :rolleyes: But really, who agrees with me? I mean we could take this in any direction... this is more like a What If? question. Who vies for a new debate topic?" Nenya thuds down in a chair, exhausted.

[ILLOTRTM]

"Well, thats fine. Don't look at me to start a debate, though! You see, I lied. I CAN debate, it's just I can't pick topics, but I'm picky ABOUT topics! Start watever you want, but I'll debate probably, especially if it's a hypothetical one!" Cora's hand reaches for another v&f, but she pulls it back and eyes the bottles warily.

[YayGollum]

Oh, I guess my points scared the Nenya person off already. :rolleyes: That's okay. How's about we do that other hypothetical thing I came up with? What would have happened if, for some weird reason, Boromir didn't die? It doesn't even have to be a debate. It could just be a discussion. Is that allowed? It could turn into a debate. Or I could just come up with something else.

[Ramagna]

Ramagna walks into the bar, wearing a curious helmet and accompanied by a huge ape...

* I think, YayGollum, if Boromir had survived,
Aragorn had to turn into a banana...

:p

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya shakes her head and glares at Tuor. "No, you did not scare me away... I just don't think these topics are very easy to debate because anyone could come up with anything and it would be just as accurate as everyone else's idea. You wouldn't be able to back your beliefs up with quotes from the books - the topics are just too general. Forgive me for saying so. :p I like the discussion idea (if Cora doesn't mind) and I would still enjoy discussing the last topic as I think a lot would be changed if Gandalf had remained Gandalf the Gray." Nenya rolls her eyes, "But what does everyone else think? A discussion sounds good... or I could come up with a debate topic that would keep sizzlin'." She grins. "A banana Ramagna? Hmmm... it's more than likely!"

[YayGollum]

Okay, since people seem to like it, I'll be IC in here, but I am Truor Tupnm, the King of the Beornings. Not Tuor, that stinky boring human. oh well. I'll debate about whatever you people can come up with. *sits and twiddles thumbs*

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya grins. "I'm sorry!" I was just remembering as best I could what Confusticated called you earlier... my bad! Truor you shall be, if you so desire!" :D Nenya relaxes back in her chair, waiting for some more input.

[ILLOTRTM]

"A discussion sounds great! Try to have it make sense, though! I'm all for that!"

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Very well then!" Nenya says standing up and walking around the room. "I will start the discussion! The main reason that I can't see things going well for ME should Gandalf not die is the fact that he would be unable to have power over Saruman. Thus Saruman would not lose his powers, and I do not think I'd enjoy seeing Saruman conquering Theoden at the foot of Orthanc because of his smooth, persuasive voice. Things would have gone much differently from that point! Not to mention the fact that Aragorn wouldn't have been the leader and things might not have followed the same course as the did at Parth Galen...." Nenya sighed and flopped down into a chair. "Gimme a Mtn. Dew, Cora! Extra caffeine!"

[ILLOTRTM]

*slides Nenya a big, frosty, extra caffeinated mountain Dew.* "mmmm, that's a fresh one! Made with the finest goat spit this side of..." *claps a hand over her mouth* "Oh, ah, nevermind.... well, they also might not have run into as many problems had Gandalf not fallen. Such as I don't think the fellowship would have broken... however, maybe it's a good thing it was broken.... uh-oh, I'm starting to debate with myself!"

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Mmm... goat spit! My favorite!" Nenya grins and takes a deep sip. :p "Delicious, perfect, exquisite!"

"Would the Fellowship have broken? Hmmm... well, I still believe it might have, but perhaps without the loss of Boromir. For some reason I have a small feeling that perhaps Gandalf would have sent Aragorn with Boromir to Minas Tirith while he himself went to Mordor with Frodo and Sam. The rest of the Fellowship would have had their choice with who to follow. I can only guess that Legolas and Gimli would have gone to Minas Tirith while Merry and Pippin would have gone to Mordor. This of course would only be if Gandalf had managed to save the Fellowship from the orc attack."

[Ramagna]

OK, with more sense then...

I think it most likely what Nenya had said...
But although Aragorn feels love with Minas Tirith, he might have gone with Frodo to Mordor, cause of his feeling of responsibility...
And I think Legolas and Gimli wouldn't have left the fellowship either, so Boromir would have to travel to M T alone...

[ILLOTRTM]

"Hmmm... this is a hard one here!": *Takes a long drink of water* "Well, let's see.... I do think Aragorn would have gone with Frodo for that reason.... and I don't think Legolas and Gimli would leave with Boromir.... but I just don't know if Boromir would go to Minas Tirith alone...."

[YayGollum]

Nah. I think that if Gandalf was still around, he'd see that some bad stuffs would happen in Rohan, Gondor, and Isengard. He'd run off and do what he could while everyone else was going down that river. He might get some of the elves to help out. I don't know. Maybe he'd make everybody stay in Lothlorien so he could do some stuff. I don't know. Sure, without Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas at that Helm's Deep place, some other important dude might have died. I don't know. Maybe Gandalf would have needed to postpone the fellowship of the Ring for a little bit. Those Ranger dudes coming down, looking for Aragorn wouldn't know what to do. Those ghost dudes wouldn't have been used. Yikes! But still, if Gandalf was still there, Gollum wouldn't have died! That's good! Yay Gollum!

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Well, one thing is that if Aragorn had gone with Frodo to Mordor then I think Minas Tirith would have fallen. Without him (like Truor said) the Ghosts of the Dead would never have come out. They would have waited for all eternity for the one who would allow them to fulfil their oath. Poor guys! Then the Corsairs of Umbar would have come instead of Aragorn, and then.... I think the outcome would be self-explanitory. So, without someone to distract Sauron away from his own land, what would have happened to the Ringbearer?"

[Anamatar IV]

Anamatar looked up from balancing a pencil on his nose. "Is this a debate about what Gandalf would have done or what would have happened if Aragorn went with frodo or what? Im confused more than I am naturally. And thats alot."

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya grins at Anamatar. "Well, have you been paying attention?" ;) With a freindly nod, she says, "We are discussing what exactly would have happened had Gandalf not fallen down with the Balrog - and there are many subjects that can be covered."

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora kicks back with a Dr. Pepper. "mmmmm, carbinated prune juice.... oh, looks like Anamatar's been lost...."

[YayGollum]

Does it really matter what would have happened to Minas Tirith? Boring. Just a bunch of humans. The fellowship would have moved faster if they had stayed together. They would have killed Sauron faster and been able to go help the humans faster. Maybe the eagles would still show up in the end and take some of them back to that Minas Tirith place. I don't know. Humans are boring, though.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya laughs and sticks her finger into her Mtn. Dew and flicks a tiny bit into Truor's face. :D "Come on now! Humans aren't boring! What makes you think that?" She scolds a little bit jokingly. "Humans can be quite entertaining and very unpredictable."

[YayGollum]

*wipes the evil Mountain Dew off of his poor innocent face* :rolleyes: Yeah, humans can be entertaining and unpredictable, but they're still very boring. They have no quirks. No specialties or talents as a race. They all have to work at learning a talent that other races already have. oh well. Maybe you think their curiosity and initial uselessness is appealling, but I can only barely feel sorry for them. oh well. What does this have to do with Gandalf? I missed it.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya laughs again, "I have no idea how we got off on that... I just wanted to defend the poor humans. You say they had no special qualities? What about the gift of Iluvatar to the Secondborn giving them leave to die and depart from ME? I should say that was special, and they were envied for it. But anyway... back to Gandalf. "

[YayGollum]

Well, this is a superly informal place, right? We can debate about boring humans if you want. Anyways, who cares about Oo! the ability to die of old age or sickness or whatever! Sounds like lots of fun! I see why crazy immortal people would be jealous! :rolleyes: Really, what's worse? Dying of a slow and painful disease or wanting to die of boredom? Too close to call, I guess. :rolleyes:

[ILLOTRTM]

"Hate to be elaborate, but I say it depends on the situation!" *takes a sip of her Dr. Pepper and looks at Truor * "Well, if you wanted to die of boredom and couldn't I'd say it was worse than if you died of a sudden, unexpected disease... or maybe... oh, I don't know.... I'm confused already....."

[ILLOTRTM]

"Hey, did everyone leave?" *looks around as a few tumble weeds roll through the bar* "Darn, oh well." *kicks back with a v&f, waiting for more customers.

[YayGollum]

sorry about that. I didn't notice that anyone had posted. *clears cobwebs and tumbleweeds away* Yeah, we do need more people in here. Argh!

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Aren't I enough?" Nenya rolls her eyes. "I guess I'm just not the life of the party like I'd like to be, am I." :rolleyes: "How about a new debate? Something real this time and bookish. I'll do some inviting too... and get you some more customers, ILLOTRTM."

[YayGollum]

Ooo! You go right ahead, crazy lady! I could always bring up the ultimate Tolkien debate. Is Gollum the Hero? :D It's crazy that so many don't think so!

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Crazy lady, huh?" Nenya sticks her finger into her newly-bought Dr. Pepper and flicks the Gollum-lover in the face. :D;) "Hmm... I'd actually get a lot of entertainment just watching you debate with yourself - you know a Smeagol-Gollum-type of thing."

[YayGollum]

You might just get to see that in this crazy court of Middle Earth thing the crazy HLGStrider person has going on. *cries because of the evil Dr. Pepper* :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

"I haven't dropped by the courtroom yet - the trial any good? How's your defense lawyer?" *Prepares another bout of Dr. Pepper.

[YayGollum]

Well, the thing hasn't started yet. Needs more jurors or something. My defense lawyer is the Mouth of Sauron. Who could be better? :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya scratches her head. "More jurors? Hmmm... perhaps I should pay the court a visit! I would listen to both sides equally - and give a fair judgment. Mouth of Sauron! Very good!"

[ILLOTRTM]

"Yeah, I'm on the jury myself. Should be a good case!" Cora goes to the menu up above the bar and marks the price on a pint of v&f down to $1.50. "There, that'll bring in customers!"

[YayGollum]

Well, actually, this seems to be the only place where v&f is popular, but why not? :rolleyes: Doobedoobedoo...Where do hobbitses come from? Are they some kind of really messed up human? Are they a combination of different races? Or is my theory right? ---> orcs used to be elves, goblins are smaller orcs, hobgoblins are smaller goblins, and hobbitses are hobgoblins who became nice. That's why Gollum calls them nasssty. There's a debate for you.

[ILLOTRTM]

"Beleive it or not, I concurr with your crazy theory! At least, it's what I always thought......"

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya rolls her eyes, yet again. "You do not believe that stuff!" she says playfully. "And neither does Yay, if I am correct." :D

[YayGollum]

Ummm...do what? Of course I believe it! :rolleyes: It makes all kinds of sense! :rolleyes: And it sounds way better than any of the other theories. :D If you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it. This would be the place for superly lighthearted debates.

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Very well!" Nenya clears her throat. "How did Hobbits come into existence? Ahhh... 'tis a very disturbing question! I believe that there was a group of regular everyday Men who lived next to the river Anduin. One day, one of them did something while playing with explosions which caused a star in the heavens to fall down into the atmosphere and land amongst the Men's dwellings. It landed with a great explosion, and lo! When all the smoke had cleared there stood the Hobbits, hairy feet and all. The impact of the explosion had caused each and every one of them to shrink in size, and the hair on their feet had grown to protect their feet as they all lost their shoes in the burning fires. The hair on their heads was melted like plastic so that it was now curlier than curly. And that was how Hobbits came into existence. Of course this whole thing was the will of Eru, for he caused Varda to unloose one of her stars so that his will would be done in ME concerning the Hobbits, for they would prove to be vital in the War of the Ring in later years." :D

[YayGollum]

So, what, we're trying to come up with the most outrageous hobbit theory? Craziness! oh well.

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Well... you started it...." :D Nenya grins. "Yes! I thought you suggested Lighthearted debates - though I wouldn't exactly classify these as debates." :rolleyes:

[ILLOTRTM]

"Yeah, they're more like disscusions with different points of veiw while waiting for customers." *Gets up and marks the price on v&f down to .50 cents.* "Let's try that...."

[Nóm]

YayGollum knows how to get costumers and keep them.
His strategy of just the right amount of "who invited you?" in cooperation with "this debate is boring" aught to bring a lot of people in!

[YayGollum]

Thanks a lot. :rolleyes: Thought I explained my unintentional evilness to you last time. sorry if you missed it. I mean, Hi! Welcome! Having fun? :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya laughs. "Well, I am very happy that you have returned, Nom! This place has been lacking you from the moment you left! I hope you are going to stay... if you are, then please help us think of a new topic to debate!" :D

[ILLOTRTM]

*Pulls discipline wand out of her pocket and starts smacking Yay* "Thanks a lot, buddy! You're scaring away my customers!":D :p ;)

[Nóm]

I read a discussion about this awhile back at another forum, but I don't know of it being discussed here at TTF.
So, if you guys are interested here it is:

Should Gildor Inglorion have done more than what he did for the hobbits? (for those who forgot, Gildor is the leader of the high elves encountered by Frodo, Sam, and Pippin while traveling through the Shire)
Use this topic if you will. It wouldn't be fair for me to participate since I have a head start on giving much thought to this topic, and have read the views of others.

[Anamatar IV]

I wouldnt mind doing this. Yes Anamatar returns...to everyone elses dismay;)

I'd take the side that Gildor of the house of Finrod (I just had to give Nom her daily fix;)) should not have done more.

[YayGollum]

I'm not allowed to say anything negative, so I'll just hide over here and drink v&f. :D Argh! Dumb elveses! :eek: Oh, yeah. sorry about that.

[Nóm]

Well, if no one else is interested, I will debate against you Anamatar. That is, unless you'd rather find someone else to? Just let me know.

[Anamatar IV]

youre on Nom!;)

I'd take the side that Gildor of the house of Finrod (I just had to give Nom her daily fix) should not have done more.

[Nóm]

Alright, good to know. You can decide who will start the debate. Also, what is this about daily "fix".:D
Cora, can I get some iced tea?

[Ithrynluin]

*walks in accidentally*

Whoa, where am I??

*sees a bartender*
Can I have an Elven Vodka please?:D

What are you guys discussing?

[Anamatar IV]

I have bad memories of debating with you confy (;)) but youre not confisticated anymore!;)

You can go first.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora grins widely and claps her hands.
"My customers! My beautiful customers! They're comming back! I'm so happy!!!!!" :D:D:D
Cora whips up an ice tea and hands it to Nom. Then she looks for the finest Elven Vodka she has and slides a glass to the newcommer.
"Hi there! I haven't been paying much attention to what they're planning on disscussing, as long as I've finally got a debate going on! Yipee!"
*Pulls a comfy chair up to the edge of the counter and watches her customers happily, waiting for the debate to start*

[Nóm]

Gildor should have sent at least 1 elf along with the hobbits to give them basic guidance in an outside world that they knew nothing about. An elf could have assurred that the hobbits did nothing too silly. Gildor tells Frodo not to speak to any black riders if he should meet them, so Gildor obviously thought that the hobbits might have another close encounter with a rider. This being so he should have sent an elf because an elf would be a great help in defending the hobbits against the black rider, and in preventing the enemy from getting what he was after.

[Anamatar IV]

But would one elf really protected the hobbits from a ring-wraith? Or any number of elves. yes there is safety in numbers but there is stealth in small numbers. Hobbits are very low to the ground--easy to hide (as they did in their numerous encounters with the Nazgul). of course we would never know what would happen if an elf came along but I can't see an elf hiding while a black rider trotted by. Can you?

Would the hobbits have gotten to Bombadils? A wise and mighty elf would think better ways of trekking through the old forest but even if they did--would they get to Bombadils? And if they did? When they left obviously the elf would lead them and they would not get captured by the barrow wights so how would the hobbits get their weapons? Frodo's barrow sword played a key role in weathertop and Merry's blade may have slain the witch-king, greatest of all Nazgul.

[Nóm]

I will admit defeat if you can convince me that Gildor knew that The hobbits would meet Tom, and meet the barrow wights, that this need to be done, and that this could not be done with an elf companion. :D

I do not know why you can not se an elf hiding from wraiths. Surely an elven guide would first try to avoid being seen at all. But an elf would be insurance though, if it came to a confrontation the hobbits would be better off with an elf.

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Nóm
I will admit defeat if you can convince me that Gildor knew that The hobbits would meet Tom, and meet the barrow wights, and that this could not be done with an elf companion. :D


'We know many things,' they said

That is close. But I cant find anything to prove that they knew they would meet tom...yada yada yada
:(


;; but we will send our messages
through the lands. The Wandering Companies shall know of your journey, and
those that have power for good shall be on the watch


This seems alot already for him to do for the hobbits.

[Nóm]

It was a lot for him to alert wondering companies to watch out for the hobits, but the fact is that he oculd have done more in sending an elf with the hobbits.

[Anamatar IV]

But yet again: should an elf have come with the hobbits and EVEN if they got caught with the barrow wight an elf would surely protect the hobbits from it. Thus frrodo would have no need to call upon Bombadil. It was Bombadil who found the swords for the hobbits to use. If Tom doesnt show up then hobbits get no swords. Witch-king lives to destroy Gondor. Big troll slaughters Beregond (this might not be the name:o)...

[Nóm]

Do you expect that Gildor knew that the daggers would be found and that this needed to happen so that Merry could help bring down the witch king?
If not, then these things can't have been his reason for not sending an elf along.

[Anamatar IV]

Nom, you are speaking rhetorically. All of your arguments are "Did they think, did gildor think, how would they know...":p

Dont argue whether or not Gildor thought they would come across the daggers: think about that they did get the daggers and not only that but also how much was achieved with these daggers.

[Nóm]

We can not measure if Gildor's actions were best based upon the outcome of them as we have no idea what would happen if Gildor did more. The fact is that the possabilities are endless.

We can only try to judge if Gildor did all that he could have done given the situation he was in and the information he had at the time of his decision.
I say that he did not do all that he could have. He knew black riders were after the hobbits, and that the hobbits had something that the enemy wanted, and that the hobbits were going into lands unknown to them. One elven guide could offer a lot of assistance, protection, and would not hinder stealth.

[Anamatar IV]

But did he really know that Frodo had the ring?

'I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you

So Gildor did NOT know of the ring.

'I do not
think the Road will prove too hard for your courage


Obviously Gildor thought frodo could handle the road himself.

[Nóm]

He thought that Frodo had the courgae to handle the road. This doesn't mean that Frodo and them had the street smarts or the wisdom do survive the road though, only that he had the courage.
Gildor was right about that too.

Now, what does your first point have to do with anything?

[Anamatar IV]

its saying the Gildor had no idea why they were pursuing him just that they were.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora takes a drink of her v&f and chews on a peice of fish thoughtfully for a second.
"I must say, if I were to take a side in this debate, I have to agree with Anamatar's side. I think that Gildor did not know what it was that Frodo had and.... oh, nevermind, I'll stay out of it.:D"
*sits back in her chair and watches for more customers or debates*

[Nóm]

He need not have guessed why the enemey was after Frodo but he knew that the enemy was and that should be enough. I never claimed that he knew that Frodo had the One Ring.
Just knowing that the wraiths were sent after Frodo would be enough to tell Gildor that Frodo had something important.
Gildor would have known about Sauron's recent uprising and have known that Sauron had serious business with Frodo. These wraiths weren't pursuing Frodo just to kill time.

[Anamatar IV]

But how much can a single elf really do for the hobbits? If only 1 ring wraith were pursuing the hobbits then, sure, an elf could be of help. But after the hobbits met Gildor the FEWEST number of wraiths that confronted the hobbits was 5. What could a single elf do against 5 ring wraiths? Note-it took GLorfindel, an elf lord, to drive 9 into the river.

[Nóm]

The wraiths feared Glorfindel because they could see him on the other side, he was like a white light there. This is because he had dwelled in Aman...was a high elf. Gildor's company were high elves too, and so they would have had the same effect on the wraiths.

Gildor should have sent an elf with the hobbits not only to protect them from wraiths in the event of an attck, but to give general guidance in the strange wild lands that the hobbits did not know. Take Strider for example, he offered guidance. The hobbits where in the same situation when they left Bree as they were when Gildor's company left them. Strider knew the hobbits would be better off with a guide, why didn't Gildor think the same?

He should have, and an elf should have been sent along with them.

[Anamatar IV]

Strider had direct word from Gandalf to wait for the hobbits. GIldor had no contact with Gandalf.

[Anamatar IV]

My plan was to leave the Shire secretly, and make my way to
Rivendell; but now my footsteps are dogged, before ever I get to Buckland.'

'I think you should still follow that plan,' said Gildor


At this point in the book Frodo is still in the Shire. Obviously Elves are not common there. If Frodo's plan was to leave secretly and Gildor agreed then wouldnt it make sense that Gildor would not send elves with frodo, for secrecy reasons?

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora sips her drink quietly, still watching the debate. This whole time she has had a smile on her face, enjoying the disscussion going on. She takes a moment after this argument to look around the room and observe her other few customers watching the debate. She grins and calls out to everyone:
"Free drinks all around!"
She starts passing out requested drinks and continues to watch the debate.
"Would either of you two like something?" :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

Nenya sips her just-ordered eggnog with relish. She is enjoying the debate immensely as she sits in the shadows, listening.

[Nóm]

"True that Aragorn had word from Gandalf, but the situation the hobbits where in was the same - great danger.
And yes, Gildor knew secrecy was needed but what harm would sending one elf be? Elves are stealth."

[Anamatar IV]

They took no heed to stealth when the hobbits first met them. They were singing loudly and walking in the middle of the road. Obviously the elves had been seen by others before they met the hobbits. It's MORE than likely that the elves presence was already known.

[Nóm]

Well the elves knew no reason that they should not have been singing openly. In the Gildor chapter it is said that elves can walk noiselessly, even more so than hobbits when they want to. Surely an elven guide wouldn't prance around the middle of the road singing while he was guiding the hobbits in secrecy.
And yes, the back rider would have known about the elves, he may have even thought that the Ring would be passed off to them, or that the bearer of the ring would join company with them, but I fail to see how sending one elf along would alert the black rider, unless of course he had counted the company of elves and could count them again the next day. But even if the nazgul knew that an elf was with the ring, I do not see how this could cause any harm."

[Anamatar IV]

But these elves werent wood elves-these were high elves.

They spoke the name of Elbereth

Maybe if they were wood elves I would say yes, they could be stealthy enough but not High Elves...I would think a high elf would wear white ( ;) ) and white doesnt camaflouge well in a forest;)

[Nóm]

"Think a high elf would wear white do you? Where the heck do you get the idea that the high elves would all wear white? Is this the only arguement you have against my claim that an elf could go along with the hobbits and maintain stealth?... Perhaps there is a much better arguement against my claim :D"

[Anamatar IV]

Confy you were doing the same thing last debate! You spoke in riddles like YOU knew what a good argument against YOURSELF would be though you werent telling:( ;)

we're gonna need to put the debate on hold for a bit-im gonna be without access until friday.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora frowns to see the debate put on pause.
"I hate commercials."
She says, as she take another drink of her v&f.
"Anyone got another debate to use in the meantime?

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Was 'The Two Towers' by Peter Jackson good or bad?" comes a voice from the corner, and Nenya emerges with a frown. "I would dearly love to debate this with someone, though of course there can be no winners. I will take anyone who is game."

[YayGollum]

I could go either way. Why not? Finally!

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Alrighty then! Let's begin!" Nenya scratches her head and looks up. "I liked the movie but feel that it was done a great injustice in the instance of Faramir. His character was ripped apart and left open to rot. :p I feel that Aragorn and Arwen were done a dis-service, and that Theoden was a wuss. Because of his "wussiness" I feel that Rohan was done a dis-service as well. This is where I stand." She looks up, a challenge written in her eye.

[ILLOTRTM]

Cora chews on her tongue thoughtfuly for a moment.
"Well, once again, I'm not really in this debate, but I would like to but in every so often. :D Nenya, I agree that Faramir was done and injustice, I think Theoden was very close to the book, and quite far from wussy, and I really haven't made up my mind about your comment to Aragorn and Arwen yet. Ok, I'll let you get on with it, then. Sorry to intrude" :)

[Anamatar IV]

Oi oi! Me and Nym (:p) still need to finish! I think when we left it was Nom's turn...

[Nenya Evenstar]

"I guess we'll continue this after Nom and Anamatar have finished." Nenya says to Cora. "I'm very interested to take up your claims on Theoden. ;) But until then, I'll stop -- and you are always welcome to but in! It's your bar, after all!"

[Nóm]

"Okay, lets' finish it off, here's my summary. Sending only 1 elf along would have been a great help because of the excellent guidence it would provide. The elf would know the lands much better than the hobbits, and the elf would know sooner than the hobbits if I wraith were near, and in the event of a direct encounter the elf could fight the wraith of much better than the hobbits could alone. An elf really couldn't hurt anything since it wouldn't hinder stealth because they can move more quietly than hobbits and I'm sure the elf wouldn't wear white or go around singing during the secret journey. So, Gildor Inglorion should have sent at least 1 elf, and since he didn't - he didn't do all that he could have. Gildor should have taken that step, he should have done more. I guess you can post your summary now."

[Anamatar IV]

If an elf went with the hobbits the chances are that they would not have even come across Bombadil. Elves are wise and can speak to the trees so they may not have been caught in the forest. And Gildor, being a very wise elf (Nom's daily fix;)), percieved that it would be best if they went on their own...since an elf did not go with them and they had trouble in the old forest and came across bombadil and the barrow's and got the swords many great deeds became of Gildor's not sending any elf.

The Elves presence was already known in that area...there would not be much hope in stealth.

I suppose Nenya, Cora, and Yay judge?

[Nenya Evenstar]

"If that is the will of those assembled..." Nenya offers.

[ILLOTRTM]

"I'm willing.... just.... let me make up my mind first!" :D

[Nóm]

Yes, Let Anamatar's picks for the judges stand. In this way I can chalk it up to you guys being biast if he won the debate." ;) :D

[Anamatar IV]

har har, Confy. :rolleyes:

That gives you a tip that she thinks I won:D

[Nenya Evenstar]

"Gosh!" Nenya says, "So now I guess I have to go back and read over this debate to see who I think won! I will do soon. And Nom, I won't choose sides here -- you should know that!" ;)

[Nóm]

:D

"Hello everyone. There is something a little amusing that Anamatar and I would like to share. Look here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6953) and be sure to read my first post in that thread. It is several posts down. Also... take note of the date. Needless to say, Anamatar did not find that in time. I pointed it out to him a short awhile ago."
;)

[Anamatar IV]

I have one more argument:

Being that many of the great elves of Rivendell were calaquendi (from beyond the sea)... they would have been far more visible to the wraiths. The quest was one of secrecy, it was especially important to avoid the danger of the wraiths... why include a shining figure of white when you can have a group of shadowy forms in a world of grey mist. Having Glorfindel (or any high elf) join the fellowship

[Nóm]

"Very cute Anamatar, very cute... but a little too late...." ;)




PS: I think you and I speak so differently that you could not have gotten that past NenyaEvenstar anyhow... or so I hope.... :D

[Nenya Evenstar]

PS: I think you and I speak so differently that you could not have gotten that past NenyaEvenstar anyhow... or so I hope.... :D
"Without much further ado," Nenya says after clearing her throat, "I would like to announce who I feel is the winner of the recent debate between Nom and Anamatar. I have chosen Nom. She stayed steadfast during her arguments throughout the course of the debate, but Anamatar had to jump around to different arguments, and I feel that his arguments were proven wrong." Nenya grins. "Thus, Nom is my choice. I don't know how explicit you want me to be... things are so different here than they are in the bigger debates...."

[Nóm]

"Thanks Nenya... you gave sufficient reason in my opinion."

[YayGollum]

sorry, evil Gollum hating Anamatar IV dude, but I gots to with the Confusticated person on this. I'd love to go with your side because of some arguements I came up with, but you never used my arguements. oh well. I guess I could've PMed them to you. Whoops! :rolleyes: Based on the stuff you dudes said, I'd have to say that the Confusticated person's stuff was way more convincing. Argh! I wish I could stick my arguements in there! oh well.

[ILLOTRTM]

"What? My turn now? Well, ok. I've given it quite some thought, and though Anamatar gave a few convincing, well thought out arguments, Nom was able to counter them and spring out arguments of her own, which either began with or had immeadiatly following proof such as quotes to support her theories and statements. My vote goes to Nom.
Now, as owner of this bar, witness of this debate and member of the three judges