The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

[Maedhros]

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad.
So it begins, the creation. When I first read this, several questions arose in my head:
1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?
But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own
Is it a reality in the Silmarillion that the most powerful beings are flawed in a way that they tend to curve to evil?
2. Is the Universe Predefined?
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?
4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.
5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?
And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.
6. Why was Ulmo the one most instructed by Music by Ilúvatar? Does this has in fact something to do with the way he acts as the story goes on?
7. Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?
And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
8. Is it better to stay with Ilúvatar or go to Arda?
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs.
9. Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?
And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart.
10. Notice that there is no mention of the amount of Ainur who went to Arda.
P.S. These are but my thoughts regarding the Ainulindalë, if you have any new ideas that you want to discuss then by all means post them. :)
The die is cast, and this discussion begins.:)

[Nóm]

9. Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?

Yes. The rebels seemed to be used. They are allowed to rebel and to take great actions which have enormous influence on things to come, after which they are seemingly punished.

1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?

A lot of his power was in his great abilities. He had visionary abilities beyond those of the other Ainur, that is one of the reasons he was the greatest and it also happend to be the reason that he wanted to influence things. Also, with his great power he had a better shot at taking over and having things his way, I imagine that this caused him to want it even more.

Is it a reality in the Silmarillion that the most powerful beings are flawed in a way that they tend to curve to evil?

No. For every evil being of great power there are other powerful beings who are considered good. Also, I would not say that Melkor was any more flawed than Manwe. Melkor did not seek to become evil, he was denied what he wanted and this lead to him becoming evil. The power above was restraining him, denying him the use of his natural abilities. So it was not Melkor's flaw which caused him to be evil, if there is a flaw at all it was a flaw in the way that Iluvatar handled his Ainur. He not only denied Melkor the use of his abilities, but put him to shame over it.
I think it was Iluvatar's intention that Melkor become what he did though, so looking at the big picture I say there was no flaw.

3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?
Shame was the begining of his downfall, but he might have had pride before he was put to shame...and that could only make the shame worse for him.

4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?
Perhaps. Maybe only Men were though. I think there is really no way to be sure but I think that the results of his discord were not the children of Iluvatar but the evil things which he himself would do in Arda.

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?
It was the greatest of the Ainur who went to Arda, so I think that they were the ones who had the biggest parts in the song, the most influence over the things which they were shown in this vision. Because of that I think that it was they who had the most input who were most impressed with this vision and therefore it was they who wanted to go be a part of it.

7. Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?

Better? That could be up for debate. I would say a presage that Arda was going to be richer, and that the beauty of it would be enhanced by the bitter. Better? in my opinion, yes.

8. Is it better to stay with Ilúvatar or go to Arda?
Better for who/what? Arda? The Ainur?
Each did what was best.
I think they all ended up doing the jobs which they were best cut out to do and also the job which they would most enjoy. For some this ment staying, for others it ment going.

10. Notice that there is no mention of the amount of Ainur who went to Arda.

true, we do not know how many the Maiar were.

[gate7ole]

1.
Throughout the history of Arda, some of the most skillful and powerful people were eventually filled with pride and lead themselves to the destruction. To name a few: Melkor, Sauron (mightiest Maia), Saruman (greatest Istar), Feanor (greatest craftsman). I agree that this was not a flaw, they are the essential counterbalance to the good, so that the latter will finally prevail.
Especially Melkor, having given a share of all the gifts of his brethren, understood better the unfolding Music and wanted to expand it according to his own thoughts. Probably perceiving his great abilities, he wanted to surpass the other Valar to please his ego or even his father, by altering the Music itself and creating thoughts of his own.

2.
This is a mostly philosophical question. I understand it as follows: The course of events of the Universe is known by God (Illuvatar) and actually it derives from his will. None can act outside his plan and every action good or bad has its source in him. But that doesn’t mean that the sentient beings don’t have a choice. They do have, and this choice is what determines the future. The Universe is predefined in the terms of Illuvatar. He knows what will be the choices of his children, but this doesn’t actually constrain them because they will be make these choices by themselves and unhambered.

4.
I cannot accept that the Children of Illuvatar were just a response to Melkor’s discord. I believe that they were in the original plan of Illuvatar: to place all his children (Valar, Firstborn, Secondborn) in a newly constructed world and give them characteristics according to their role in Arda, so that collaborating to understand his will and in the end make a greater song altogether.

5 and 8.
It is the same question with “Should the elves be left to dwell alone, or should they be brought to Valinor?” Ulmo thought that the elves should be given the choice to evolve alone like they the Valar had once done by entering Arda. It is the choice whether someone wants to be responsible for his actions, to be able to adjust his way of life according to his will, to have places of mastership instead of being subject to someone else more powerful.
The answer to which is better is of course objective. My personal choice would be to go to Arda. Even if it would be perilous and I might fail, at least I would know that I had tried.

6.but of all these water they most greatly praised. And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; Ulmo was the Vala of the most powerful element of Arda, the water. His later actions show a better understanding of the events than the other Valar. His counsels all the times proved correct. This probably has to do with the nature of the water as described by the previous quote. Containing an echo of the Music, the water gave to Ulmo great wisdom and foresight.

My question on Ainulindale:
And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World.
11. Why did Illuvatar cease the vision and also why did he cease it at that specific time?

[Maedhros]

No. For every evil being of great power there are other powerful beings who are considered good. Also, I would not say that Melkor was any more flawed than Manwe.
Consider the most potent beings of their respective race: Melkor and Fëanor. Both with abilities to do things and yet they ended up doing not so many good deeds.
It was the greatest of the Ainur who went to Arda, so I think that they were the ones who had the biggest parts in the song, the most influence over the things which they were shown in this vision.
Well, the book says that it was some of the greatest and most fair, not all of the greatest.
Better? That could be up for debate.
But it already has being a matter for debate.:)
I think they all ended up doing the jobs which they were best cut out to do and also the job which they would most enjoy. For some this ment staying, for others it ment going.
Then what about Tulkas?
Throughout the history of Arda, some of the most skillful and powerful people were eventually filled with pride and lead themselves to the destruction. To name a few: Melkor, Sauron (mightiest Maia), Saruman (greatest Istar), Feanor (greatest craftsman).
You could add Aulë to that list with respect of his impatience and the creation of the dwarves.
It is the same question with “Should the elves be left to dwell alone, or should they be brought to Valinor?”
This is the great question of the Silmarillion I guess.
Why did Ilúvatar cease the vision and also why did he cease it at that specific time?
Who can guess a God? Perhaps it was because the vision only encompasses the books. The creation of the world in the Silmarillion to LOTR the Return of the King, when the beginning of the Domain of Man begins.

[gate7ole]

11.
About this question, why the vision stopped just before the dominion of Men and the fading of the Elves, I think the answer lies in the following quote:
Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
Because of this strange gift to Men that they can shape their life beyond the Music of the Ainur, the vision couldn’t continue after the dominion of Men. The Music doesn’t contain the future behavior of Men, since it is not predefined (by fate), but will be determined by the deeds of men, which are unknown to the Valar. Thus, the vision had to stop. It would be inconsistent to give Men such a gift and then forecast their future.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Some thoughts about the vision:

I do not believe that Tolkien is talking about the Dominion of Men here as being after the War of the Ring. Look at this quote from "The Sil.":
And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World.
Notice the ere. Ere means "before". Notice this quote from "The Sil.":
In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged, as he most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men usurped the sunlight.
Now in this context, I would think that "the triumph of Morgoth" is referring to a time during the Wars for Beleriand. For it is indeed true that Morgoth had the victory during that time, and also true that men and elves became estranged from each other. Therefore, I would say that the Dominion of Men began long before the ending of "The Return of the King".

If you look at this part and the word "ere" in the first passage, it is interesting to think that the vision of Illuvatar could have ended even before The Wars of Beleriand were over and Morgoth defeated. This is my personal opinion of how it happened.

I will be back with some more from "The Ainulidale" after some reading.

[gate7ole]

I'll leave the question of the vision for the time being. There are some wonderful questions by Maedhros that I didn't answer.

3.
No, I don't think that shame can be the beginning of any downfall. Alone, shame can only make someone to be more careful when communicating with the others. There has to be something stronger that will act in favor of the bad side of the person. I believe egoism was the beginning of Melkor's downfall

7.
I would vote for the remade Arda. None knows how would Arda be if Melkor hadn't disturbed its creation, but I guess it would be the most fair place ever imagined. There would be no ice, no rain, no great fires, no foul creatures. It sounds good but personally I wouldn't want to live there. It would be too comfortable. I would miss the melancholy of the rain, the beauty of the snow. Even the perils have their own role in bettering the life of a person, by enhancing his strength in body and mind and giving value to success.
This is why IMO Illuvatar says to Melkor that everything he does is but a part of Illuvatar's great plan. Even the evil deeds have their role. The remade Arda might probably not be the initial plan of Illuvatar, but the third song of the Music had been "blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came".

[Maedhros]

I do not believe that Tolkien is talking about the Dominion of Men here as being after the War of the Ring.
That's my opinion. The fading of the firstborn in ME. Look at the Prologue in LOTR:
There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
With this from ROTK:
And Gandalf said: 'This is your realm, and the heart of the greater realm that shall be. The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended. And all the lands that you see, and those that lie round about them, shall be dwellings of Men. For the time comes of the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.'
The Dominion of Men is coming, as I see it.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by gate7ole
3.
No, I don't think that shame can be the beginning of any downfall. Alone, shame can only make someone to be more careful when communicating with the others. There has to be something stronger that will act in favor of the bad side of the person. I believe egoism was the beginning of Melkor's downfall

"Can only make someone more careful when communicating with others" ...I think that you mistake shame for embarrassment.
...and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger.
Secret anger came from his shame. Anger and shame can ruin anyone.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Confusticated
I think that you mistake shame for embarrassment.

I thought of shame as a lesser emotion. Afterwards I checked the dictionary and it is rather strong. Yes, I meant embarrassment.

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Therefore, I would say that the Dominion of Men began long before the ending of "The Return of the King"
When? At the Second Age when Gil-Galad was the high-king of elves and Eregion was the center of civilization? Or at the Third age when men were strifing to survive from continues battles and again the centers of wisdom were Imladris and Lorien?
No, I think that the Dominion of Men fortold started to happen after the War Of The Ring.
Also, I've read that the elves started to fade at the time of their awakening at Cuivienen (sp?). Their fading was a continious process because of their bonds with earth. Only near the Valar this fading could stop. Thus, it cannot be considered as a criterion for the Dominion of Men.

[Aiwendil2]

1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?


This is reflective of a theme that is very common in mythology: that exceedingly great skill or power is a moral fault. There are many examples - Faust, Icharus, Milton's Satan. The sequence perhaps goes something like this: figure A has superior abilities; A comes to realize that his peers have lesser abilities; A becomes proud/arrogant; arrogance leads to evil. I can think of two ways to apply that sequence to this particular case. First, one could say that Melkor's recognition of his superiority led to arrogance, and his desire to create things of his own was a manifestation of that arrogance (he wanted to show off). Second, one could say that he recognized his superiority and wanted to put that superiority to use; then when he was denied the power to do this (he could not find the Secret Fire), he became angry and arrogant. The distinction may appear insignificant, but in fact I think it is profound. In 1, the desire to create things is a result of pride; in 2, the desire to create is a cause of pride. Thus your choice of interpretation of Melkor's fall must have a profound effect on how you view the creative urges of Aule, Feanor, and even Tolkien.

2. Is the Universe Predefined?

This is one point where, in my opinion, Christian theology is hopelessly self-contradictory. On the one hand, there is a firm insistence on free will. On the other, an equally firm insistence that God is omniscient and knows the future. The arguments break down when you look at them closely.

3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?

I think Melkor's fall is perhaps best viewed from a semi-Augustinian perspective. Augustine said that evil will precedes evil action; further, evil will consists of a desire to live by one's own standard rather than the standard of God. Melkor's real sin, in this view, is not the act of creating discord; it is the intention to create discord; this intention is reflective of his desire to live according to his own standard rather than Iluvatar's. Augustine says that shame (and in fact, all subsequent sin) is a punishment for original sin. So no, I don't think that shame is the beginning of his downfall (though maybe Tolkien was not an Augustinian).

4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?


I think the Ainulindale pretty clearly indicates that the Children of Iluvatar are a response to the discord of Melkor. This is very interesting, and, I think, a point of departure from Christian theology.

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?


I suppose that Iluvatar gave them different natures in the beginning, leading some to prefer going to Arda and others not. I'm not sure whether there's anything profound in the distinction; I certainly can't think of anything.

6. Why was Ulmo the one most instructed by Music by Ilúvatar? Does this has in fact something to do with the way he acts as the story goes on?

There's a definite relationship in Arda between water and music. There is certainly something musical about the ocean, and I think it's a rather brilliant stroke to say that the ocean contains an echo of the Music of the Ainur - hence the sea-longing that affects people both in Arda and in real life. There are numerous associations of the sea with music - the Teleri, the Sea-elves, are also the Lindar, the Singers. Ulmo has a horn, if I recall correctly, and Osse is associated with music (he instructs the Teleri in "sea-lore and sea-music"). Maglor, one of the two greatest musicians in the world, ends up wandering up and down the shore lamenting his fate.


7. Is this but a presage to all of us that Arda remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred?

I think it is. The implication is that the existence of evil leads to greater good than the existence of good alone, and idea that is more fully expounded in Morgoth's Ring when Arda Unmarred vs. Arda Remade is dealt with. This is another idea that can be traced back to Augustine.

9. Melkor becomes a Rebel. Is there any correlation to the way the Silmarillion threats other rebels too?

To some extent, yes. Melkor is the archetypal creator-rebel (one could say "Faust-figure", but this implies a connection with Goethe's Faust, which is different in many ways from the earlier legend). I think Aule, Feanor, Sauron, Celebrimbor, and Saruman at the least are variations on this model. I don't know whether the emphasis should be on the rebel aspect, though; I think it is the creator aspect that Tolkien stresses. I think he even may have thought of himself as being a variation on this model (note that being a creator-rebel does not necessarily make one evil).

Because of this strange gift to Men that they can shape their life beyond the Music of the Ainur, the vision couldn’t continue after the dominion of Men. The Music doesn’t contain the future behavior of Men, since it is not predefined (by fate), but will be determined by the deeds of men, which are unknown to the Valar. Thus, the vision had to stop. It would be inconsistent to give Men such a gift and then forecast their future.

This is a very interesting explanation. I rather like it. Of course, it implies that Elves lack free will, which could be something of a problem. But since I've refused to even consider the problem of free will in Arda, I guess I have no valid objection.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Aiwendil2
I think the Ainulindale pretty clearly indicates that the Children of Iluvatar are a response to the discord of Melkor. This is very interesting, and, I think, a point of departure from Christian theology.

I can't agree with it. First I don't think that in Ainulindale it is clear when the Children of Illuvatar enter the Music. It is only implied that the Third Theme was the most powerful and full of sentiments. It never says that the Children hadn't entered the Music previously.
But even if the Children hadn't emerged in the first two themes, it would be too far-fetched to believe that Illuvatar created them just to respond to Melkor's discord. Remember that they were given the dominion of ME, they were supposed to determine the future of the new world, of course along with the guidance of the Valar.
My belief on the matter is that Eru from the beginning had in his plan the existance of two races that would dominate ME. The Valar would aid them and after the rebel of Melkor, their role would be much greater.

[Nóm]

Here's another question.
Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered;
What event do you think this coincides with? Could it be the event which was taking place right then?
but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. ....perhaps those who attuned to him right away were the Maia who later went to him? Just an idea.

What about the other portions of the music? What do they coincide with? Here's a couple more points in specific.
but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

If you haven't yet, you'll probably have to study the full chapter which I didnt want quote in full.

[Aiwendil2]

I can't agree with it. First I don't think that in Ainulindale it is clear when the Children of Illuvatar enter the Music. It is only implied that the Third Theme was the most powerful and full of sentiments. It never says that the Children hadn't entered the Music previously.

It is explicitly said: "For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme . . ." The third theme was pretty clearly introduced in response to Melkor's discord. I suppose it is possible, though, that Iluvatar had devised that theme from the beginning, and, in the event, employed it against Melkor. It certainly does seem strange to say that his original design did not include Men or Elves. Nonetheless, I think there is some significance in the fact that the Children of Iluvatar entered the music to fight Melkor; the entry of the third theme might correspond to the awakening at Cuivienen. I seem to recall a passage that may have some relevance here; it's in Morgoth's Ring and it discusses the various stages of Iluvatar's creation. Unfortunately, I don't have Morgoth's Ring with me at the moment.

What event do you think this coincides with? Could it be the event which was taking place right then?

Interesting question. I got the impression that the beginning of the music corresponds with the creation of Arda; that is, the events that took place prior to Iluvatar's "Ea!" are not represented in the music. I think that Melkor's introduction of discord must represent the first war between him and the Valar in Arda.

....perhaps those who attuned to him right away were the Maia who later went to him? Just an idea.

This is what I've always suspected, at any rate.

What about the other portions of the music? What do they coincide with? Here's a couple more points in specific.

The conflict between Melkor's discordant theme and Iluvatar's third theme must represent conflict between Melkor/his minions and the Children of Iluvatar. I think this is best interpreted as tying back into the good-out-of-evil theme; the points in history where evil is most triumphant are in the long run merely contributing to the triumph of good.

I think the last chord must represent the end of the world (the Dagor Dagorath, if that can be considered canon). I believe there is a point in the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where they discuss this last chord in relation to the end of Arda.

[Nóm]

This is what Finrod says of the final chord.
...I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did not perceive?
'Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.
'As may a master in the telling of tales keep hidden the greatest moment until it comes in due course. It may be guessed at
indeed, in some measure, by those of us who have listened with
full heart and mind;but so the teller would wish. In no wise is
the surprise and wonder of his art thus diminished, for thus we
share, as it were, in his authorship. But not so, if all were told us
in a preface before we entered in!'

Also, Welcome to the forum Aiwendil2.

[gate7ole]

Aiwendil2’s correlation of the three themes is very interesting. The first theme is the first battle of the Powers during the making of Arda (probably until the flight of Melkor to outer regions). The second theme is the Second battle of the Powers until the destruction of the Lamps. And the third is the continuous battle of the Children of Illuvatar against Melkor and his servants. Of course it’s just speculation, but there are some details that agree with it. The first theme had no flaws until Melkor’s discord, the Children don’t appear until the third theme (yes, I was wrong before, Aiwendil), Illuvatar stopped the battle of music before it’s ending…
I’m convinced that since the Children of Illuvatar didn’t appear before the third theme, the two previous themes were NOT self-inclusive. They were NOT two different versions of a story. They were the two first parts of it. The third and conclusive story was not finished as the vision later was not finished.
As for the discord of Melkor, its triumphant tone and its vainness suggest of course the nature of Melkor’s character. An impatient spirit, eager for dominion over the others. The fact that others tuned their music to his, shows their frailty. The Balrogs and Ungoliant were most possibly among them.

[Nóm]

By gate7ole
They were NOT two different versions of a story. They were the two first parts of it.
Two versions of a story? hmm... It never even entered my mind. I don't think the thought of two versions is correct but it is interesting that someone would have thought that, what caused you to if so?
By gate7ole
The third and conclusive story was not finished as the vision later was not finished.
How do you reach your conclusion that the third story (theme) was not finished?
We have this...
And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; where fore, though the music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages of the ending of the World.
This is one thing that supports the idea that the third theme was complete. The Ainur could have heard all music and still not have known everything to come. We know this because they were surprised by things that they saw in the vision(which they did already heard in song). The end of the world could have been played before them, but they didn't know it. That is one of the things which Finrod considered. (see my last post)

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?
If you're asking which thing outside of themselves, my answer is: the children of Iluvatar.

[gate7ole]

This is one thing that supports the idea that the third theme was complete.
It was complete in the sense that Eru stopped it. It was not complete in the sense that it didn't reach an end, but left the story unfulfilled. Since I adopted the association of the third theme with the battle of the Children of Illuvatar with the Evil (in any form of Morgoth or his servants), this battle was not totally described in the Music and thus I understand it as uncomlpete.
But whether the Music didn't contain the end of the story, or it contained it but the Valar didn't perceive it, I can't know.

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to finally enter this discussion, although I have never before participated in a Reading-discussion. I however was reading very carefully everything you posted and it is so educative and interesting!
The last portion of posts, however, I was most interested in, for I too think the the themes in the Music represented the events to come in the history of Arda.

Yet, let me offer to your comment my question.
WHY MUSIC?
I have never before read any legend concerning the creation of the world where it was done by MUSIC! Actually, this was precisely that I liked most of all in the Silm. and that made me look closer into Tolkien art - CREATION THROUGH MUSIC!
I have later seen that Tolkien introduces music everywhere - most of his characters express themselves through songs, music is heard from the flowing rivers and streams, from the falling rain, in the woods, in the high mountains. The WHOLE world of Arda is filled with MUSIC.
So, WHY MUSIC?
How do you understand this?

[Nóm]

He probably had excellent intelligence with sound so to use this for the creation of his world must have been the most natural thing for him. He created languages and wrote songs for his books, so I think he heard music while he wrote a lot of these things. Honestly, I think it is as simple as this: when imaging the creation of Arda he heard it. It just came to him as sound more than imagery.

[Maedhros]

I think the last chord must represent the end of the world (the Dagor Dagorath, if that can be considered canon). I believe there is a point in the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where they discuss this last chord in relation to the end of Arda.
From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth:
'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
'For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same. I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did got perceive?

As to why he stopped the vision:
'Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.
'As may a master in the telling of tales keep hidden the greatest moment until it comes in due course. It may be guessed at indeed, in some measure, by those of us who have listened with full heart and mind; but so the teller would wish. In no wise is the surprise and wonder of his art thus diminished, for thus we share, as it were, in his authorship. But not so, if all were told us in a preface before we entered in!'
Ilúvatar can't reveal all I guess. There is still the fact that Men will rule the world after and their paths are could only be grasped by Eru alone.
From the Published Silmarillion:
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.
From the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth:
'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.'
This is an interpretation of Finrod about the music at the end of days. Very interesting to note that they thought that men were going to be very important and in fact deliver them from "death" of Arda.
From the Letters 212:
The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'[quote]
[QUOTE]So, WHY MUSIC?
Indeed, that is the basic question of the Ainulindalë
This is what I have gathered from the JRRT:
Letters 260:
I have little musical knowledge. Though I come of a musical family, owing to defects of education and opportunity as an orphan, such music as was in me was submerged (until I married a musician), or transformed into linguistic terms. Music gives me great pleasure and sometimes inspiration, but I remain in the position in reverse of one who likes to read or hear poetry but knows little of its technique or tradition, or of linguistic structure.
I think that we can say that he transformed the music of the Ainur as the beginning of one of the great stories ever told.:)

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, Master of the quotes!!!
How is it that you ALWAYS find the right extract to help others out?! :p

What you have said I suspected, for I have not yet come to the letters and there are so many pieces if information to be still gathered to complete the puzzle called "Tolkien" !

[Grond]

Okay, I've read this thread from start to finish and before I get into the meat of the discussion, I will lay out my own beliefs concerning the insightful questions propounded by Maedhros.1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought? Is it a reality in the Silmarillion that the most powerful beings are flawed in a way that they tend to curve to evil?I don't think we need to go any further than the first few paragraphs to find the easiest answer to this question.To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun t conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.Melkor had already taken a different path and that indicates to me that his inner core, while the greatest, is also the most inquisitive and searching. All of the other Ainur seem content to await Eru's instructions whereas Melkor seems to want to be Eru. I have always thought that the Ainur's characteristics were decided by what "gifts" Eru bestowed upon them when they were born of His mind. Melkor received the greatest power and hence also received the greatest desire to create/order/direct. He wasn't evil in the beginning, he was merely a weaker image of Eru. His greatest desire was to emulate his Creator.2. Is the Universe Predefined?As has already been pointed out in this discussion, I think the beginning of the Universe is predefined but the ending of the Universe is still in flux. The Music is not yet finished so it is ever changing and flowing. The basic Game Plan is laid out but not all the plays are made yet and those that are made are not always executed correctly.3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?I think this is backwards. I think that the desire to create and control something of his own to be able to be Prideful of his own creation is where Melkor began his descent into shame and eventually corruption.4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?Who can say? My thoughts are that Iluvatar didn't have a blueprint for the Music. He created the Ainur (offspring of His thought) and let them compose the Music. He was the conductor. He controlled the tempo and the ebb and flow. When Melkor sought to bring discord, the Conductor brought it back in tune with His vision of the symphony. Using my theory, the Children were the result of Iluvatar composing His own concerto to complete what He had conducted with the Ainur.

I will post my opinions on 5 - 10 later today. :)

[gate7ole]

We have spoken about the role of the Children of Illuvatar in the Music, but until now, we didn’t take into account the role of the Ainur. I understand their role as this: they were the composers of the Music (though some parts were not comprehensible even to them), but Music didn’t contain them. It contained Arda and the third theme contained also the Children of Illuvatar. Which means that they were supposed to prepare Arda for the Firstborn and Secondborn. As they sang it before Illuvatar, they would afterwards create it. And since Melkor chose the road of rebellion, their first battle sang before Eru, would happen in real. The role of the Ainur couldn’t thus be disjoint from the role of the Children. There would be no reason to create a world for nobody else to live in. This is why the third theme containing the Children could not be just the response to Melkor’s discord, but a plan originally conceived by Illuvatar (probably knowing the rebellion –which the yields the question of predefinition).
The matters of Ainulindale are mostly cosmogonical and theogonical and thus only assumptions are possible.

[Maedhros]

This is why the third theme containing the Children could not be just the response to Melkor’s discord, but a plan originally conceived by Illuvatar (probably knowing the rebellion –which the yields the question of predefinition).
From the Published Silmarillion
And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.
It was Ilúvatar's theme from the beginning. They just played their part according to their knowledge.
Now the matter of Free Will:
Letters 153:
To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (not the same as 'subcreation' as a term in criticism of art, though I tried to show allegorically how that might come to be taken up into Creation in some plane in my 'purgatorial' story Leaf by Niggle (Dublin Review 1945)) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions.
I believe that in the making of the third theme, it was the direct action of Melkor that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Melkor didn't know of their existence and by his disharmony he created something greater that he himself had thought.
From the Published Silmarillion:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
And it proved to be true.

[Lhunithiliel]

It all began so:
And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.

Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'
When the great "concerto" had finished:
But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them.
Every time I read this part of the story in the different sources I wonder:
> Did the Ainur actually KNOW that they were creating a new world?
It somehow seems to me that they did NOT.
> If however they knew what they were creating through their music, would they be more "careful" and "specific" in their solos ?

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
I believe that in the making of the third theme, it was the direct action of Melkor that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Melkor didn't know of their existence and by his disharmony he created something greater that he himself had thought.

Actually it states in the Silmarillion that none of the Ainur had anything to do with the creation of the Children of Iluvatar. There are his creation alone.

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

So in essence, Iluvatar already had the theme prepared, and the children were already created in his mind. Melkor had nothing to do with the children's creation whatsoever.

[Maedhros]

This are interesting things that I got out of the Music of the Ainur from BOLT 1.
Thereafter he fashioned them dwellings in the void, and dwelt among them, teaching them all manner of things, and the greatest of these was music.
Made them dwellings in the Void? Interesting. Notice the inference that something was made before the Music.
Then said Ilúvatar: "The story that I have laid before you, and that great region of beauty that I have described unto you as the place where all that history might be unfolded and enacted, is related only as it were in outline. I have not filled all the empty spaces, neither have I recounted to you all the adornments and things of loveliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full.
Extremely familiar with the Published Silmarillon.
Never was there before, nor has there been since, such a music of immeasurable vastness of splendour; though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End. Then shall Ilúvatar's mightiest themes be played aright; for then Ainur and Men will know his mind and heart as well as may be, and all his intent.
Notice that he speaks of Men and not the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps, that is why in the Athrabeth, when Finrod says that Men have the power to make things right that Melkor perverted in the theme?
There had he nonetheless fallen to thinking deep cunning thoughts of his own, all of which he showed not even to Ilúvatar. Some of these devisings and imaginings he now wove into his music, and straightway harshness and discordancy rose about him, and many of those that played nigh him grew despondent and their music feeble, and their thoughts unfinished and unclear, while many others fell to attuning their music to his rather than to the great theme wherein they began.
In this way the mischief of Melko spread darkening the music, for those thoughts of his came from the outer blackness whither Ilúvatar had not yet turned the light of his face; and because his secret thoughts had no kinship with the beauty of Ilúvatar's design its harmonies were broken and destroyed. Yet sat Ilúvatar and hearkened till the music reached a depth of gloom and ugliness unimaginable; then did he smile sadly and raised his left hand, and immediately, though none clearly knew how, a new theme began among the clash, like and yet unlike the first, and it gathered power and sweetness. But the discord and noise that Melko had aroused started into uproar against it, and there was a war of sounds, and a clangour arose in which little could be distinguished.
Notice the detail and the emphasis in the time that Melkor spent in the Void. Did his thoughts had something to do with the fact that he was alone in the Void without the other Ainur?
Then Ilúvatar raised his right hand, and he no longer smiled but wept; and behold a third theme, and it was in no way like the others
Notice the difference with the Published Silmarillion, here Ilúvatar wept.
Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."
Notice the quality in the detail, and the clarity in which it is implied that Arda Reborn or Remade is going to be better than Arda Unmarred.
but of all these water was held the fairest and most goodly and most greatly praised. Indeed there liveth still in water a deeper echo of the Music of the Ainur than in any substance else that is in the world, and at this latest day many of the Sons of Men will hearken unsatedly to the voice of the Sea and long for they know not what.
Again the importance of Water, and the fact that the one most responsible for it, was the one who was most instructed by Ilúvatar in the art of Music.
Knowing all their hearts, still did Ilúvatar grant the desire of the Ainur, nor is it said he was grieved thereat.
This is missing from the Published Silmarillion. Ilúvatar grieved from the departing of some of his Ainur.
Che pensi tu?

[gate7ole]

The quotes from BOLT 1 are very interesting, but we should be careful not to take everything as absolute, since they belong to a very early period of Tolkien’s thought and many statements may not actually stand in the revised Silamrillion.

-The dwellings of the Valar may not exist but the dwelling of Illuvatar is reffered to the published Silmarillion:
and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.
But I think we shouldn’t take it literally. The Music was the inaugural moment of creation of Ea and this doesn’t mean that nothing else was created before the Music.

-Melkor’s walks in the void alone, imply a reason for his afterward rebellion. Also consider this quote:
and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness
Melkor’s initial purpose was creation and filling of the void. That’s a reason to believe that Melkor was in the beginning good and his long walks in the void where the light of Illuvatar was absent darkened his heart. Thus, we can associate his rebellion not as an outcome of his shame, but as a darkening of his heart in the void.

-That Illuvatar wept and that he grieved for the departure of some Ainur, I think that they belong to the early thoughts of Tolkien and were abandoned because they don’t fit in the cosmological theory. Illuvatar should have foreknown the actions of the Ainur and in fact this had to be his plan. Thus, any such behavior by him is, I think, not coherent.

-Now, the big question of the Second Music, the fact that only Men will join the Ainur in its making, is puzzling. Let’s examine how this matter changed through the years.
In Ainulindale of BOLT 1 it is said that:
though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End.
And
Yet while the Sons of Men will after the passing ofthings of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Illuvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world’s end he has not revealed even to the Valar and Melko has not discovered it.
In The Lost Road, Morgoth’s Ring and Silmarillion
though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the Children of Illuvatar after the end of days.
And
Yet it is said that the Sons of Men will join join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
The first part of each quote is in Ainulindale and the second was placed afterwards to the first chapter of Silmarillion proper.
This means that while the second part was always the same, that is Men will join the Valar in the Second Music, while the Elves don’t know their future, the first part was puzzlingly correct in the early passages and wrong in the later! I can’t of course explain this, but I think it is certain that the Elves will NOT take part in the Second Music.
Why is that? Is it that their role ends with the Final Battle as Finrod fears? Are they so bound to Arda that they have no existence outside of it? I don’t know but I’m sure that their role cannot end anywhere, since fea(soul) is believed to be immortal regardless of the possibility that it is bound to a place.
Having no sources to prove anything more, only imagination can confine us. So, my speculation is that since the Elves are so bound to Arda, it will not be destroyed after the Final Battle, but remade (somewhere said with the aid of the Dwarves) without the need of any Music. There they will live happily forever. Men on the other hand, will join the Ainur in a mightier Second Song, where their own habitation will be created. Of course, this means the sundering of the two races (and Elrond will not meet Arwen again). Another possibility is that the Second Music will not contain a new earth, but something else (here my imagination fails) and Men will rejoin Elves in Arda Remade and live together forever.

[Maedhros]

Actually it states in the Silmarillion that none of the Ainur had anything to do with the creation of the Children of Iluvatar. There are his creation alone.
So in essence, Iluvatar already had the theme prepared, and the children were already created in his mind. Melkor had nothing to do with the children's creation whatsoever.
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.
So, my speculation is that since the Elves are so bound to Arda, it will not be destroyed after the Final Battle, but remade (somewhere said with the aid of the Dwarves) without the need of any Music. There they will live happily forever. Men on the other hand, will join the Ainur in a mightier Second Song, where their own habitation will be created. Of course, this means the sundering of the two races (and Elrond will not meet Arwen again). Another possibility is that the Second Music will not contain a new earth, but something else (here my imagination fails) and Men will rejoin Elves in Arda Remade and live together forever.
I believe that both the Children of Ilúvatar will be involved in the making of the Music as stated by the Published Silmarillion, and a new Arda Remade will be better than the first one.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.

Again I post my quote, which you failed to respond to.

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I believe that both the Children of Ilúvatar will be involved in the making of the Music as stated by the Published Silmarillion, and a new Arda Remade will be better than the first one.
From the published Silmarillion we read:
Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall
join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it
This contradicts the passage of Ainulindale of the same book which says that both races will join in the Second Music. We can't have certain knowledge of what Tolkien thought about. So, I retain my opinion of my previous post.

[Maedhros]

Again I post my quote, which you failed to respond to.
I did respond, but I will try and make it more obvious.
From the Published Silmarillion
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.
And what was that strife and who cause it? Melkor. Therefore my statement:
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.
He was therefore making the statement of Ilúvatar true.
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
Had Melkor imagined the Children of Ilúvatar, No. His dischords were met by a new theme of Ilúvatar that created them. I didn't say that he created them, I do say that it was because of his actions in the previous themes that caused Ilúvatar to make a third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created.
This contradicts the passage of Ainulindale which says that both races will join in the Second Music. We can't have certain knowledge of what Tolkien thought about. So, I retain my opinion of my previous post.
From Chapter 1 of the Published Silmarillion
Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
From the Ainulindalë:
But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which he came
This is not a contradiction. The Valar are not all knowing, only Ilúvatar is. The knowledge of the Ainur (Valar) is not complete, therefore it does not means that the Elves would not take part of a greater theme, it just goes to shows that they simply don't know. I believe this to be part of Ilúvatar's plan. He didn't tell Men what happened after their deaths, he also didn't tell neither Valar nor Elves what happened after the "End of Arda." (regarding elves) I will go forth with the first statement in the Ainulindalë and believe that it will be the Children of Ilúvatar, not only men who would take part in this.
This is I believe the reason that Finrod feels so ackward in the Athrabeth when speaking about the end of Arda.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
I didn't say that he created them, I do say that it was because of his actions in the previous themes that caused Ilúvatar to make a third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created.

No, it was not Melkors actions which caused Iluvatar to create a third them in which the children were created. The children had been previously thought out and planned as we can clearly see in the following quote

"And then they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

As is clearly pointed out by the passage Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. When Melkor began his discord Iluvatar didn't suddenly decide to create his children. Obviously they were preconcieved before the music even began. Now this can mean two things. Either Iluvatar new that Melkor would we rebel, and in knowing this planned to use his rebellion to create the children. This idea is supported by the following

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

or Iluvatar's music alone created the children and he did not know that Melkor would rebel. And Melkor's music simply did not change the planned outcome. This idea is supported by the following

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

I tend to lean towards the former simply because it clearly states that no Ainur had any part to play in the making of Iluvatar's children. Now if Melkor's rebellion was part of the making of the children then this quote would be contradicted.

[Maedhros]

From the Ainulindalë
But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.
Earlier Ilúvatar says:
Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'
The question is why did Ilúvatar interfere in the themes himself?
Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery. Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.
In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

Ilúvatar's interventions in the music were made to counter those introduced by Melkor. The fact that the third theme made by Ilúvatar was made to counter him proves that as taken from this passages. It was the indirect action of Melkor to introduce his "ideas" into the music that caused the direct intervention of Ilúvatar.
As is clearly pointed out by the passage Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. When Melkor began his discord Iluvatar didn't suddenly decide to create his children. Obviously they were preconcieved before the music even began. Now this can mean two things. Either Iluvatar new that Melkor would we rebel, and in knowing this planned to use his rebellion to create the children.
Yet the passage that you quote comes later in the text. The Ainur had no knowlegde of the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. If Melkor hadn't put his own thoughts into the music then perhaps Ilúvatar wouldn't have had to intervene himself.
or Iluvatar's music alone created the children and he did not know that Melkor would rebel. And Melkor's music simply did not change the planned outcome.
Depends on the free will really.
I tend to lean towards the former simply because it clearly states that no Ainur had any part to play in the making of Iluvatar's children. Now if Melkor's rebellion was part of the making of the children then this quote would be contradicted.
Not really, the quote says that it was Ilúvatar's theme that created the Children of Ilúvatar. The Ainur had no direct part in that music and therefore had no direct intervention in their creation, yet it was Melkor's "thoughts" in the music that caused the direct intervention of Ilúvatar and in one of those interventions (Third Theme), the Children of Ilúvatar were created. If Melkor hadn't intervened, then perhaps the outcome would have been different or it could have been similar, who could know?

[Nóm]

What about the chance that Iluvatar was planning from the start to have men in his world, but he decided later on during the music to include the elves. The fact that the firstborn do not leave the world like men do might be one piece of information that could help support this idea. I see what Meadhros says about Iluvatar creating the children in response to Melkor's discord and I think that could be true but I see no proof.
Also, when the Ainur saw the vision of the children of Iluvatar they thought that they had been preparing for this all along. Maybe they only prepared for men. Or maybe only for the elves.


Anybody have anything to add?

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Yet the passage that you quote comes later in the text. The Ainur had no knowlegde of the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. If Melkor hadn't put his own thoughts into the music then perhaps Ilúvatar wouldn't have had to intervene himself.

What you are saying is that if Melkor had not tried to mess things up then the Children might never have been created. I disagree again from the following quote we see that Arda was indeed created for the children.

"...and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

As we can see Arda had a purpose beyond its beauty, which was to house the Children of Iluvatar. You are correct in saying that the Ainur had no knowlege of the coming of the children. This is simply because they are the ones which are creating the world for the Children to live in. Not the ones creating the Children themselves. Obviously Iluvatar knew all along that the Children would be living on Arda. Melkor's theme simply challenged Iluvatar's it did not change it nor did it cause it.

[Maedhros]

What you are saying is that if Melkor had not tried to mess things up then the Children might never have been created.
It really annoys me when people put words that I don't say. The Children were probably would have been created in a different way, or the same, but in the way it happened, they were created in a theme to counter Melkor. I can't put it any simpler than that. It seems that I have hit a brick wall with Elu Thingol.
I see what Meadhros says about Iluvatar creating the children in response to Melkor's discord and I think that could be true but I see no proof.
At least someone can grasp what I'm trying to say.Ilúvatar introduced the theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar were created to counter those of Melkor's. If Melkor hadn't introduced his "discords" then they would have been introduced in a different way.
Melkor's theme simply challenged Iluvatar's it did not change it nor did it cause it.
Melkor's theme made Ilúvatar introduce his third theme in which the Children were created. Plain and simple. If not, then the Children more probably would have been introduced in another way.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Melkor's theme made Ilúvatar introduce his third theme in which the Children were created. Plain and simple. If not, then the Children more probably would have been introduced in another way.

What other way? Melkor did not force Ilúvatar to create the theme. He may have forced him to introduce the theme. I don't see what you mean by another way you will have to be more specific before I can respond.

I don't want to try and have to read your mind, you just have to explain your thoughts better:)

[Maedhros]

Last Try (Actual Ainulindalë scenario):
Cause
A. Music being played.
B. Melkor discord comes in.
Effect
C. Ilúvatar responds by adding his themes.
D. In Ilúvatar third theme the Children of Ilúvatar were made by him.

In this scenario, Ilúvatar's theme was in respond (effect) of the discords of Melkor (cause). If Melkor's discords were not in place, then who knows how the actual themes would have been played out (Arda Unmarred). Remember that in the beginning Ilúvatar was just pleased to see his Ainur sing.
It was the action of Melkor that caused the discord in the music, that prompted Ilúvatar to make other themes (and in the third theme of Ilúvatar alone), the Children were made, so Melkor unknowingly was indirectly responsible for the third theme of Ilúvatar and therefore the Children of Ilúvatar.
I can't make it more simple than this. Cause and effect principle. Were the Children the creation of Eru alone, yes. Would have they come out sooner or later in the music (in another scenario), i would say yes.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
It was the action of Melkor that caused the discord in the music, that prompted Ilúvatar to make other themes (and in the third theme of Ilúvatar alone), the Children were made, so Melkor unknowingly was indirectly responsible for the third theme of Ilúvatar and therefore the Children of Ilúvatar.

On this point I completely disagree with you. Melkor's discord did not cause Ilúvatar to make other themes.

"And then they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

I will paraphrase the bold section for you as it is apparent to me that you need it. The Ainur realized that they were so busy with the music and creating Arda that they did not realize that the purpose of the music was to create a world for the Children of Ilúvatar.

Ilúvatar proposed the first themes so they could create a world, Arda. And as is clearly shown in this quote, Arda had the purpose all along of holding the Children of Ilúvatar. Now, Melkor's discord may have forced Ilúvatar to play his theme earlier than he had expected; however, it did not force him to create his theme.

[Maedhros]

"And then they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."
Know, hmmmmm, this is an interesting concept. Ilúvatar only gave the Ainur certain parts of knowledge regarding his theme, no one had all the knowledge except Eru himself. The Ainur didn't know of the Children of Ilúvatar.
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
I will paraphrase the bold section for you as it is apparent to me that you need it.
I would categorize the Children of Ilúvatar a thing more wonderful that Melkor had imagined.
Melkor without having any knowledge of the Children, tried to interweave into the music his ideas, creating discord and prompting Ilúvatar directly to introduce his themes and in the third one, the Children were created. I would guess that if Melkor had not entered his discord into the music, the Children would have been brought in a different way.
Yet, in this scenario, it was because of the discord of the Music of Melkor, that Ilúvatar intervened and in his third theme, the Children were created and his words were proven to be true.

[Lhunithiliel]

To say that the creation of the Children came as a response to Melkor's discord is something that I can not agree with.
I will NOT provide quotes, for Maedhros and Elu are doing fine with this job.
But, Maedhros, if your theory is right, if Melkor provoked the creation of the Children.... Then....
1/ WHY in the third theme? Why not in the first or in the second? They all were provoked by Melkor's discord.
2/ And another thing, as a derivative from the above question - If Illuvatar was creating the most beloved creation of his - his Children - Why had he to do it in anger? Remember that anger was the prevailing tune in the third theme! His face and the music (as described) shows it.
--------------------------

Edit: Are only the initial questions to be answered?

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maehdros
I would guess that if Melkor had not entered his discord into the music, the Children would have been brought in a different way.

If by a different way you mean that Melkor's discord would not be present I agree. However, Ilúvatar's theme would not be changed and his theme was not a response to Melkor's discord. Our main disagreement is this statment-this is my argument-Melkor's actions did not cause Ilúvatar to create the third theme. It was already created.

Posted by Maehdros
Melkor had to do with the Creation of the Children of Ilúvatar in the fact that by his discords in the music, Ilúvatar to counter him made the third theme in which the Children of Ilúvatar came into being.

My whole emphasis is this, that the Children of Ilúvatar were not made to be a counter, as the passage above states.

[Nóm]

Lhunithiliel, we can ask and answer any questions that we'd like,not just those in Maedhros' initial post. He said so in the commentary thread.
Though no one has answered my last question yet...(hint).;)

Here's another...
...to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
What might some of these things be?

[gate7ole]

Despite being very interesting, the debate between Maedhros and Elu Thingol has confined the conversation in one only subject. I sense that everything needed has been said and other matters should be also discussed.
Confusticated’s quote simply states the obvious. Since the future cannot be fully determined, every age has its surprises even to the Valar. The vision by no means was a thorough account of the events to come. And considering the free will of the Children of Iluvatar that change the course of history by their actions, a different argument would be erroneous. Concentrating on the quote
“for they do not proceed from the past”
we can further make out that the past cannot hinder the course of the future. It is a hopeful statement as it gives the opportunity to a group of people can to get over the mistakes of the past and start a new life. Of course it also implies that since some events are new to the age even to the Valar, Iluvatar’s intervention in Arda is continuous and through Manwe, he never ceases to help his creations to overcome all difficulties.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by gate7ole

Confusticated’s quote simply states the obvious. Since the future cannot be fully determined, every age has its surprises even to the Valar. The vision by no means was a thorough account of the events to come. And considering the free will of the Children of Iluvatar that change the course of history by their actions, a different argument would be erroneous. Concentrating on the quote
“for they do not proceed from the past”
we can further make out that the past cannot hinder the course of the future...
Well ,either you missed my question or chose not to answer it. I did not ask for the meaning of that quote but for some examples of what it speaks of.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Well ,either you missed my question or chose not to answer it. I did not ask for the meaning of that quote but for some examples of what it speaks of.

I don't know which things the Valar saw in the vision and which they didn't. I suppose that they saw the most events of the First Age, but I have a feeling that they didn't foreknow the downfall of Numenor. So, this can be something that surprised Valar, despite being bad (the quote doesn't discriminate between good or bad). Also, the Valar might not have seen the destruction of the Ruling Ring by a Hobbit. Or the treason of Saruman, or the intervention of the Ents. But all these are speculations.

[Aiwendil2]

1/ WHY in the third theme? Why not in the first or in the second? They all were provoked by Melkor's discord.


Certainly this is a valid question in either case - whether the Children were a response to the discord or not. It is explicitly stated that the Children came with the third theme - that much is incontravertible. The question is not with which theme they entered; it is whether the third theme was purely a response to Melkor's discord, or whether it would have been introduced regardless of Melkor's actions. One might suspect that, if Iluvatar had intended to create the Children from the beginning, he would have included them in the first theme. That he did not do so, and that the narrative certainly makes it appear that the third theme was a response to Melkor, at least raises the possibility that the Children of Iluvatar were conceived of as an instrument through which to counter Melkor's evil.

2/ And another thing, as a derivative from the above question - If Illuvatar was creating the most beloved creation of his - his Children - Why had he to do it in anger? Remember that anger was the prevailing tune in the third theme! His face and the music (as described) shows it.


Again, it is a fact that the Children came with the third theme. Even if they would have been created without the discord, we still must live with the fact that the theme that introduced them was, apparently, made in anger.

Our main disagreement is this statment-this is my argument-Melkor's actions did not cause Ilúvatar to create the third theme. It was already created.


I don't think there's enough textual evidence to either confirm or refute this. Even if you are correct however, it seems to me that the Children of Iluvatar were in the event introduced to counter Melkor's discord. They may have been conceived of prior to this, but their actual appearance is a response to Melkor.

Here's another...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What might some of these things be?

I suspect that this includes such things as making the world round and sending Gandalf back. I'm not sure though, whether there's a subtle distinction between things that Iluvatar "had in store" from the beginning but did not reveal and things that he conceived of after the world was made. Interesting question.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Aiwendil2
the narrative certainly makes it appear that the third theme was a response to Melkor, at least raises the possibility that the Children of Iluvatar were conceived of as an instrument through which to counter Melkor's evil.

Nay, that line of logic is faulty. Let me give things to you in laymen's terms. Now when Iluvatar first suggested to the Ainur a mighty theme he knew what would be created, Arda. The whole point is that Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. So Iluvatar is not going to suggest a world with no point. You may say that the point of Arda was simply its beauty; however that is impossible due to the following quote

"...and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty."

Paraphrase: So it had a purpose beyond its own beauty
Note: that this is past tense, meaning it had purpose in the past not in the present

Next, when Melkor started his discord I'm sure Iluvatar did not say to himself "hmmm... I think I'll create my children to stop him"

Posted by Aiwendile2
we still must live with the fact that the theme that introduced them was, apparently, made in anger.

where does it say the children were made in anger?

Only before he makes his last note does it say that his face was terrible to behold. Even if Iluvatar is angry while he is playing the third theme this is probably because Melkor is trying to mess everything up.

Verstehst du?

[Aiwendil2]

Nay, that line of logic is faulty. Let me give things to you in laymen's terms. Now when Iluvatar first suggested to the Ainur a mighty theme he knew what would be created, Arda. The whole point is that Arda was made for the Children of Iluvatar. So Iluvatar is not going to suggest a world with no point.

You are arguing against the idea that the Children of Iluvatar were solely conceived of as a response to Melkor's discord. This is not the position I was maintaining. My point is that, regardless of whether Iluvatar's intention to create them had existed earlier, they were in the event employed against Melkor's discord. The Children were contained in the third theme, and the third theme wages war against Melkor's theme. That's all that I'm saying.

I think you're right about Arda being intended from the beginning for the Children of Iluvatar.

where does it say the children were made in anger?


It does not. That's why I said "apparently" made in anger. Iluvatar's face is "stern" when he introduces the third theme. I think that's interesting.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Aiwendil2
That he did not do so, and that the narrative certainly makes it appear that the third theme was a response to Melkor, at least raises the possibility that the Children of Iluvatar were conceived of as an instrument through which to counter Melkor's evil.

Sounds like you were defending that to me.

Where is Maehdros? He hasn't posted in this thread at all today.

[Nóm]

The children could not have been introduced during the first or second theme because Arda was not enough formed.
I say that it was Iluvatar's plan that Arda be marred for the children. So I say that the discord of Melkor was just a preparation for the children as was the more pleasant work done by the other Valar.
I think that once the theme reached that magic point already forseen by Iluvatar, he introduced the children..so it was in response to a point reached by Melkor and the other Valar.

[Maedhros]

However, Ilúvatar's theme would not be changed and his theme was not a response to Melkor's discord.
My point is that, regardless of whether Iluvatar's intention to create them had existed earlier, they were in the event employed against Melkor's discord. The Children were contained in the third theme, and the third theme wages war against Melkor's theme.
It's there in the book.
the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.
Melkor didn't knew of the Children of Ilúvatar, yet the theme in which they were formed was made by Ilúvatar to counter his discord. Regardless of what might have happened if there were no discord, the fact of the matter is that by it, Ilúvatar to counter it, made the third theme that created the Children of Ilúvatar. Perhaps Ilúvatar wanted it that way, perhaps not. I cannot put it more simple than that.
This is in accord with this too:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
Where is Maehdros? He hasn't posted in this thread at all today.
Busy in work.

[Elu Thingol]

I think I can see where your going wrong Maedhros

You think that if Melkor hadn't created discord, that the children would be created in some other way. That's just not possible they would still have to be created by a theme and it would be the same exact theme Ilúvatar played in the third theme. You seriously don't think he can just change his part in the music and get the same results do you? Melkor's discord did not cause Ilúvatar to change his music in the third theme. He had already devised it there was no room for changes.

[Aiwendil2]

Sounds like you were defending that to me.

I was defending the question, not the answer. I think it's easy to see how one could interpret the passage as indicating that the Children of Iluvatar were made as a response to Melkor. There's other evidence (which you've cited) that points the other way. I agree with you that that evidence is more persuasive.

[Maedhros]

You think that if Melkor hadn't created discord, that the children would be created in some other way. That's just not possible they would still have to be created by a theme and it would be the same exact theme Ilúvatar played in the third theme. You seriously don't think he can just change his part in the music and get the same results do you?
They would have been created by a theme, yes. All that was created (previous things in the Ainulindalë) was by a theme. Since Ilúvatar is God, he can pretty much do what he wants and yes I think that he can make a different theme and still get the Children of Ilúvatar. They could have been created in another way if Melkor hadn't made the discord.
A God by definition has no limitations, if he had, he wouldn't be a God, would he?

[Elu Thingol]

Yes, a God has no limitations, however, they can set limitations for themselves. By creating Arda and the children through themes Iluvatar is setting a limitation, if he had none he could just think of Arda and it would exist. So the theme would also have limitations, you can't change it and get the same result. 1+1=45 what? impossible

[Maedhros]

By creating Arda and the children through themes Iluvatar is setting a limitation, if he had none he could just think of Arda and it would exist.
He could do that, just that he did it in another way.
That's just not possible they would still have to be created by a theme and it would be the same exact theme Ilúvatar played in the third theme.
Why the exact same theme, doesn't makes sense. How can you limit and omnipotent being to a single alternative?
Now granted Melkor's theme caused the children to come out different than they should have
There is only "one third theme", not alternates. His third theme was waging aginst that of the discord of Melkor. If as you say, Melkor was not indirectly responsible for the Children, how is it possible that he alter their coming? If he had nothing to do with them, then how did he change the outcome?
you can't change it and get the same result.
You can't change the theme and have it have the same result, yet you say that Melkor's discord caused the Children to come out different. Different from what? There is only one theme.

[Elu Thingol]

Now granted Melkor's theme caused the children to come out different than they should have

Posted by Maedhros
caused the Children to come out different. Different from what?

They wouldn't come out different who knows what I was thinking:)

"...though it has been said that greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take being at the moment of their utterance...."

You can see where I probably went wrong from there, I thought it was refering to something else. Oh well, now on to the real point.

Next

Posted by Maedhros
Since Ilúvatar is God, he can pretty much do what he wants and yes I think that he can make a different theme and still get the Children of Ilúvatar


Even if, Iluvatar could create a different theme that would create the Children, why would he do it? What would be the point of creating a different theme?

[Maedhros]

Even if, Iluvatar could create a different theme that would create the Children, why would he do it? What would be the point of creating a different theme?
Don't know.
I will post other things about the Additional readings, so that we can compare them to those of the Published Sil.

[Elu Thingol]

Posted by Maedhros
Don't know.

I rest my case

[Maedhros]

As I did in a previous post, I would like to recall some differences between the Music of the Ainur in the Bolt 1 and the one in the Published Silmarillion:
From the Comentaries of the Music of the Ainur:
It will be seen that the great theme that Ilúvatar propounded to the Ainur was originally made somewhat more explicit ('The story that I have laid before you,' p.50), and that the words of Ilúvatar to the Ainur at the end of the Music contained a long declaration of what Melko had brought about, of what he had introduced into the world's history (p. 52). But by far the most important difference is that in the early form the Ainur's first sight of the World was in its actuality ('even now the world unfolds and its history begins', p. 53), not as a Vision that was taken away from them and only given existence in the words of Ilúvatar: Eä! Let these things Be! (The Silmarillion p. 20).
I have posted the appropiate quote in a previous posts regarding this.
In this 'Tale', also, many specific features of less general import make their appearance; and many of them were to survive. Manwë, called 'lord of Gods and Elves and Men', is surnamed Súlimo, 'ruler of the airs and wind', he is clad in sapphires, and hawks of penetrating sight fly from his dwelling on Taniquetil (The Silmarillion p. 40); he loves especially the Teleri (the later Vanyar), and from him they received their gifts of poetry and song; and his spouse is Varda, Queen of the Stars.
Other divine beings now appear. Manwë and Varda have offspring, Fionwë-Úrion and Erinti. Erinti later became Ilmarë 'handmaid of Varda' (The Silmarillion p. 30), but nothing was ever told of her (see p. 227). Fionwë, his name long afterwards changed to Eonwë, endured to become the Herald of Manwë, when the idea of 'the Children of the Valar' was abandoned. Beings subordinate to Ulmo, Salmar, Ossë, and Ónen (later Uinen) appear; though these all survived in the pantheon, the conception of Maiar did not emerge for many years, and Ossë was long numbered among the Valar. The Valar are here referred to as 'Gods' (indeed when Eriol asked 'are they the Gods?' Lindo replied that they were, p. 41), and this usage survived until far on in the development of the mythology.
Interesting to note the idea of the Children of the Valar. Even Melko had children, Gothmog is often refered in Lost Tales as the son of Melko.
This following text I find very curious:
Early in the text just given (p. 50) occurs the sentence: 'It is said that a mightier [music] far shall be woven before the seat of Ilúvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End', and in the concluding sentence of the text: 'Yet while the sons of Men will after the passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Ilúvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko ? has not discovered it.' Now in the first revision of the Ainulindalë (which dates from the 1930s) the first of these sentences was changed to read: '... by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days', whereas the second remained, in this essential, unchanged. This remained the case right through to the final version. It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up. However, in the published work (pp. 15, 42) I left the two passages as they stand.
Hmmmmm. And it makes me wonder.

[gate7ole]

About the last thoughts of Maedhros.

1)The first versions of Ainulindale had no vision, but Arda was created instantly.
I believe it is only a change of structure in the narrative. I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say "Ea". I seems more dramatic. If anyone else can explain this change better...

2)About the children of the Valar.
Wise choice from Tolkien to abandon this idea, since it resulted in some inconsistences. How would any child of the Valar, say Fionwe be placed in the mythology? He was of the order of the Valar but was born in Arda and didn't come out of it. How would we consider Fionwe? Greater than the Maiar who were direct thoughts of Iluvatar? Or just a lesser Vala. And what would the reason for the reproductive abilities of the Valar? They were guardians of Arda, their number would suffice to do the job. Only for the pleasure of parenthood? Fortunately Tolkien rejected this idea (probably for other reasons than mine).

3)About the two fates of the Elves.
Maedhros, I mentioned this matter in this thread and you rejected any incosistence. What made you change your opinion?

[Nóm]

When Iluvatar showed the vision he gave sight where there was only sound before, so the Ainur were for the first time able to actually see their music. Later when the Valar went into the world they saw that it wasn't yet made, and they knew how it should look because of what they saw in the vision.
The vision is also where the Ainur first learned of the children. They loved the children when they seen them and I think this love is what caused some of them to want to go into the world; to make things good for the children.
If not for the vision, it might be strange to find Ainur to be the Valar, and once the Valar did go down into the world, they would have no ideas as to how things should look.

[gate7ole]

I agree Confusticated, but at the earlier versions the vision was showing the actual world being created. The later versions complicated the narrative and we had a vision first, then it ceased and then the world was created. Tolkien moved the creation of the world from before the vision to after it. With this difference, nothing changes related to the meaning of the vision. Both times it shows the "demo" of Arda. And both times the Valar have to enter Arda and labour hard to tranform it.
I wonder if there is any meaning to this change, or just different narrative structure.

[Maedhros]

3)About the two fates of the Elves.
Maedhros, I mentioned this matter in this thread and you rejected any incosistence. What made you change your opinion?
I haven't changed my mind, it just makes me wonder, what if the change was not intended as was simply a mere overlook.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by gate7ole
I agree Confusticated, but at the earlier versions the vision was showing the actual world being created. The later versions complicated the narrative and we had a vision first, then it ceased and then the world was created. Tolkien moved the creation of the world from before the vision to after it. With this difference, nothing changes related to the meaning of the vision. Both times it shows the "demo" of Arda. And both times the Valar have to enter Arda and labour hard to tranform it.
I wonder if there is any meaning to this change, or just different narrative structure.
The vision unfolded almost the complete history of Arda, while the actual world created where the Ainur descended was only the beginning of this history.
I think this change was done because if the Ainur had to enter a ready-made world then the reader would have not had the unique opportunity of reading one of the most beautiful tales - of the beginning of days and how everything was created, how it was firste marred...etc.
This is, IMHO, the reason why Illuvatar first show a vision and only then created the real world.

[Elennainie]

I have spent the last two hours reading, as thoughtfully as I am able, your impressive discussion. And, as Lhunithiliel, I have never posted in a reading-discussion before. That said, I would like to respond only to the few things about which I feel I can contribute.

1. from gate7ole:
1)The first versions of Ainulindale had no vision, but Arda was created instantly.I believe it is only a change of structure in the narrative. I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say "Ea". I seems more dramatic. If anyone else can explain this change better...

Showing them the vision first, and then pronouncing “Ea! Let these things Be!” was more dramatic, as gate7ole has said, but I believe this drama had a purpose, which was to highlight the importance of the metaphysical concept of existence. Tolkien’s education most likely included a study of Thomistic philosophy. He would have been familiar with the Thomistic and Aristotelian concept of existence as the first, or most important, cause in creation. Indeed God Himself is Esse Subsistens, or subsistent Being, Being Itself in Thomistic philosophy. (I believe his education would have included Thomistic philosophy, since this philosophy is fundamental in Catholic education, and he attended Catholic school (St. Phillip’s) and must have received some instruction by the Catholic priest who was his guardian. Regardless, his classical school education surely would have included Aristotle, and Aristotle has a similar notion of the importance of the primary cause, or existence.) Note how the word “Be” is capitalized in “Ea! Let these things Be”, as is the word “Being” in the quote Maedhros posted:

"From the Published Silmarillion:
quote:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

quote from gate7ole “I can't think of any reason why Iluvatar had to show them first a vision and then say ‘Ea’.”
I believe Tolkien changed the text to stress the metaphysical notion of coming into being, of coming into existence, and its place within the context of creation which is the subject of the Ainulindale. The music was sung and heard, and the Ainur were shown a vision, but the world was not in actual existence yet outside the mind of Illuvatar, Who is God, Esse Subsistens. He, being the First Cause (another Thomistic notion) needed to bring the things into actual existence. The difference between the plan for the world, which the Ainur had power to make (the world then in potency), and the actualized world, which only Eru could accomplish/bring into actual being, is what is being stressed in that passage by the addition of the "Ea" part.

2. from Lhunithiliel:
Yet, let me offer to your comment my question. WHY MUSIC? I have never before read any legend concerning the creation of the world where it was done by MUSIC! Actually, this was precisely that I liked most of all in the Silm. and that made me look closer into Tolkien art - CREATION THROUGH MUSIC!I have later seen that Tolkien introduces music everywhere - most of his characters express themselves through songs, music is heard from the flowing rivers and streams, from the falling rain, in the woods, in the high mountains. The WHOLE world of Arda is filled with MUSIC.So, WHY MUSIC?

What Confusticated said in reply sounds reasonable to me. I would like to add the speculation that, in addition to Tolkien having an affinity for music, perhaps it was the immateriality of music that was appealing as well. Music is more spiritual and less material (you can’t touch it), and, at that point in the story when the singing was taking place, the world hadn’t come into material being yet. The immateriality of the music was well suited to, and corresponded to, the immateriality of the world that, at that moment, only existed in thought.

I would also like to add that I too thought Tolkien using music for creation in Ainulindale was genius, and that I am glad to be in a place where other people were as touched by it as I was. :)

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what I've said.

[Nóm]

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?
I know that some of us (including myself) answered to this that it were perhaps those Ainur who played the bigger parts in the music which wanted to go into Arda. Also, that it was for love of the children of Iluvatar that they wanted to go into Arda.

I was just scanning through the Letters...which I haven't read yet and found this...
Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants. They were those who had 'fallen in love' with the vision, and no doubt, were those who had played the most 'sub-creative' (or as we might say 'artistic') part in the Music.
It was because of their love of Eä, and because of the pan they had played in its making, that they wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms..
So I think question 5 has been answered beyond a doubt.
Though is does not name the children in specific as I did, it must have been a factor.
This quote from The Silmarillion:
Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar..
and also this..
...and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them...
So it was love of the vision and having played the biggest parts in the music which determined who of the Ainur became the Valar and the Maiar.
Posted by Elennainie
I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on what I've said.
this sounds good to me...
Originally posted by Elennainie
The immateriality of the music was well suited to, and corresponded to, the immateriality of the world that, at that moment, only existed in thought.

[Eöl]

2.Is the universe predefined?

No, even though Illuvatar is God over all other beings, he still gave them the right to choose evil or good, which is another reason Melkor fell to evil and it is also why not even Illuvatar can predict what will happen in the universe. Unless you mean the general shape of the universe, not the peoples within it. Then it could possibly be predefined, but I believe that the Ainur chose their own theme to correspond with that of Illuvatar. Sort of like blending tenor, soprano and bass voices in a choir. They are all different, but they all go together to produce one voice (or in this case, one universe).




Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words....and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony

[Lhunithiliel]

Although this part of the Reading-discussion is almost at end, I would like to put forward a question that I had asked some time ago but unfortunately it stayed unanswered.
While making the music, did the Ainur actually know that they were creating a material world?
I'm asking this, because I have the impression that they did NOT.
But,
If they knew that they were creating a world, would they have been ..."more careful" or would they have put some "special" features into the music?

[Ithrynluin]

Lhun,
of what should they have been more careful exactly?
Did THEY do something wrong or was it Melko?

[Elennainie]

Well, we know that Iluvatar did not specifically tell them that the purpose of the Great Singing was to creat a material world. However, he does mention that I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song. Was he only talking only about the beauty of the song here, or the beauty of the world which would be created?

I think, also, that we know that the Ainur did not know fully understand the mind of Iluvatar. "For"For each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came..." So they could not have read his thoughts concerning the coming of the material world.

[Nóm]

I got the impression that the Ainur's existance was confined to eachother, the music, and Iluvatar. For that reason I do not think they could have known that they were making a material world because they didn't know what material was. It is stated that during the vision shown to them by Iluvatar that there was now vision were before there was only hearing. I think the only of our 5 senses that they had experienced was hearing so there is no way they could understand materiel.

Correct me if I'm wrong..:D
Was he only talking only about the beauty of the song here, or the beauty of the world which would be created?
The way I see it he was certainly talking about the music. Not the world.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Lhun,