Commentary relating to; 'Ainulindalë' discussion thread

[Maedhros]

What exactly is this Silmarillion Reading discussion?
It will be a detail "analysis" of the Published Silmarillion chapter by chapter. I will make the first intro to the Ainulindalë and hopefully set the rule or standard or how I envision this discussion should be.
I will ask other members of the Guild and Forum to post the intros of the following chapters in the Book. It would like to have volunteers for the next chapters. I will post the list of the chapters and the date of the intros.

Why do I want other people involved into making the intros of the chapters?
Because every person is different and can bring different things to the table. I just only ask that the person, takes the time and care to make a good intro so that he can have a good discussion. I believe that the person who makes the intro, makes the tempo of the discussion. Also because I think that it would be stupid for me to think that only certain individuals have the capacity to make them. I believe in the free flow of ideas and this should go in a long way to help it, and it will make more people involved in this.

What to do and not to do?
This is a "serious" discussion about the Published Silmarillion. It's a place to discuss the book and related material. It's not about discussing the movie, or nonsense chit - chat that has nothing to do with the book. Any member can post any question regarding the book. No one will be ridiculized or mocked. The most simple question will have the same validity as the most complex one. No sarcasm will be allowed.:( (I put this because I do it myself).

Why do I post additional readings?
Because the Published Silmarillion is a book edited by Christopher Tolkien and has "editiorial" additions that are not in the base texts. We will try and examine the differences between say a chapter from the published sil to it's equivalent from the Quenta in HOME 4.

Who can participate?
Anyone who likes the Silmarillion can participate, but your comments must be silmarillion related. I will ask the moderators (Anc and Grond) to keep it vigilant that no post outside the sil are made.

Surprise for you all!
I will ask persimission to use material which has been edited to make a more complete Silmarillion. There is a group of people who are involved in making a "more" complete Silmarillion from all of the basic Tolkien Texts and adapting them to make a more complete and cohesive one. When you see their work, you will be awed.:)

Have Fun
This discussion has the final end that the participants have fun and learn about the works of Tolkien. So go ahead and have fun.:)

[Valinorean]

My goodness! What a task you have imagined for us! I would love to be a part of this, although I am too busy to do a chapter any sooner than October 30. Is that too late?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
The first discussion will be the Ainulindalë

The additional not required readings are:
From Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur.
From the Lost Road and Other Writtings: Ainulindalë.
From Morgoth's Ring: Part I Ainulindalë.

So, are you ready for some Silmarillion.:)
So those are the additional sources.


Here's a link to the discussion (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6678)

[Maedhros]

Is that too late?
No, you can participate in the other chapters discussions.
Also I'm looking for volunteers who want to make the opening threads of the other chapters.:)

[Nóm]

I'm willing to do it for any chapter, but especialy those of the Quenta Silmarillion.

[Aiwendil2]

Now for a bit of shameless advertising:

The project that Maedhros mentioned, the compilation of a more complete Silmarillion, is taking place here: The New Silmarillion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi) . Anyone who is interested is welcome to participate.

[Maedhros]

I would like to thank both lindil and Aiwendil2 because of the permission that they have given me to use the material of the Revised Silmarillion Project (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=8) , and a special thanks to Aiwendil2 because of his participation in the discussion. Hmmmm, if only I could find a way to coax lindil and the rest of the people in the guild to participate.;)

[Elfarmari]

I would be interested in writing an intro to a chapter, preferably a later one so I would have plenty of time to research.

[Maedhros]

(though I don't have the pleasure of knowing her),
Knowing who?
And Master Maedhros, NOW I KNOW how come that you always know where to find the right quote!
Hmmmmmmmmmm.;) Oh, and don't call me Master. I don't claim to know more than anyone else.:) I feel silly when you call me that.
.....and the rest of the people in the guild to participate.
I meant for the other members of the guild to participate in the discussion about the Silmarillion.:)

I will post the chapters, so that you every member can post to which chapter they want to do an intro. I reserve myself the right of the one of the Fall of Gondolin.:)

[Maedhros]

Just a quick reminder that the name of Eru is Ilúvatar not Illuvatar.

[Maedhros]

I need volunteers for the following chapters:
Valaquenta
1. Of the Beginning of Days
2. Of Aulë and Yavanna
3. Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
4. Of Thingol and Melian

The Valaquenta's discussion begins next Saturday 26 of October, so I need a volunteer for that chapter fast, otherwise, I would have to make the intro myself. Remember, those who volunteer for the "seemingly" boring chapters, will get the best ones later.:)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Confusticated
I'm willing to do it for any chapter, but especialy those of the Quenta Silmarillion.
As I said, I will do any chapter. This means I volunteer for every. Just assign me whichever you need to.

[Maedhros]

Thanks, Conf. but I still need more volunteers for the other chapters. I will post either Wednesday or Thursday which one gets the Valaquenta so that the person can do the appropiate research.

[Elu Thingol]

I'll do "Of Thingol and Melian" for you if it's still open.

[Elfarmari]

I would like to volunteer for 'of the beginning of days', if that is available, or I could do one of the others, not the valaquenta, please.

[Maedhros]

So the chapters right now look like this:
Valaquenta: Confusticated
1. Of the Beginning of Days: Elfarmari
2. Of Aulë and Yavanna: Not assigned
3. Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor: Not assigned
4. Of Thingol and Melian: Elu Thingol

I would advise anyone to pick chapter 3 because it is very interesting. We will bring various references from HOME to make it more clear and interesting.
:)

[Nóm]

Our next discussion, the chapter "Valaquenta" has these additional readings:
BoLT1: The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor

The Lost Road and Other Writings: Of the Valar, which is actualy the first chapter within Chapter VI - The Quenta Silmarillion

Morgoth's Ring: Part 2, the first section of The Annals of Aman

Ainulindale in part 1 of Morgoth's Ring is an additional reading to our Ainulindale discussion, but it also has information about the Valar. The music of the Ainur and the coming of the Valar

If anyone knows of anything that should be added to the list, let me know and I will add it. There may be something in The Peoples of Middle-earth but I do not have it and cannot find it's contents.

[Maedhros]

This discussion began as an Idea that I had for a long time to create an open discussion, chapter by chapter of the Silmarillion. It began in the Guild of Tolkienology and it was been moved to the Silmarillion forum proper.
This is a serious discussion and all are welcome to participate. Please read the first post in the thread. This is a discussion of the Silmarillion first and foremost.
Any post not belonging to the discussion proper, I will pm the person for the removal of it.
So, have fun.
:)
I still need volunteers for the intros into the chapters of the Published Sil.

[Turgon]

You can put me down for an intro too Maedhros - I'll be happy to do any (maybe 'Of the Coming of the Elves....') I won't be joining the discussion until we begin the Valaquenta though... missed the beginning of the Ainulindalë...:( so I'd rather wait and participate fully in the next chapter.

[Ithrynluin]

Yes I missed the beiginning of the Ainulindale discussion also, but I would like to participate in the next ones fully.
Since Turgon decided for "Of the Coming of the Elves..." I'd like "Of Aulë and Yavanna" please.:)

[Maedhros]

Excellent.
The Chapters as of now are:
Valaquenta: Confusticated
1. Of the Beginning of Days: Elfarmari
2. Of Aulë and Yavanna: ithrynluin
3. Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor:Turgon
4. Of Thingol and Melian: Elu Thingol
5. Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië: gate7hole
6. Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor: Lhunithiliel
7. Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor: Not assigned
8. Of the Darkening of Valinor: Not assigned
9. Of the Flight of the Noldor: Not assigned
10. Of the Sindar: Not assigned
11. Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor: Not assigned
12. Of Men: Not assigned
13. Of the Return of the Noldor: Not assigned
14. Of Beleriand and Its Realms: Not assigned
15. Of the Noldor in Beleriand: Not assigned
16. Of Maeglin: Not assigned
17. Of the Coming of Men into the West: Not assigned
18. Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin: Not assigned
19. Of Beren and Lúthien: Celebrien
20. Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad: Not assigned
21. Of Túrin Turambar: Not assigned
22. Of the Ruin of Doriath: Aiwendil2
23. Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin: Maedhros
24. Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath: Not assigned
AKALLABÊTH: Not assigned
OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE: Not assigned

Usually chapter discussion last between 2 through 3 weeks to give anyone the opportunity to participate.
Turgon and Lhunithiliel if you will tell me of the two who wants the chapter 3 or if anyone of you is willing to do any other chapter. The person making the intro to the chapter is required to look into the HOME volumes and Unfinished Tales to look for aditional material regarding the chapter, and posting the material one week before the discussion of the chapter begins.
I know that there are less glamorous chapters than others, so the person who chooses to do chapter 14, will have a lock on whatever other chapter he/she likes. :)

A special Thanks to Ancalagon for his support and his future moderation in these threads.:)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I know that there are less glamorous chapters than others, so the person who chooses to do chapter 14, will have a lock on whatever other chapter he/she likes. :)

Hehe,I am actually very fond of chapter 14,because I enjoy the geography of ME a lot. Maybe I'll sign up for that one later.;)

[Maedhros]

The Valaquenta discussion begins next saturday 2 of november. Confusticated will make the intro of the chapter and the discussion will begin.
If you have any question regarding the dates of the discussions, please post them in the commentary thread and not in the Discussion thread.

[Eöl]

I will do Of Beren and Luthien.

[gate7ole]

Put me to the next unassigned chapter. I think it is "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië", but if not, I don't mind.

[Lhunithiliel]

Chapter 3 -question = settled. Turgon has got it and I got of "Feanor...".
Concerning Feanor, Maedhros, don't you think that the chapter "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor", coming right after the one I had picked up, is so closely related to the previous one that they should be discussed together?

I would however like to ASK everybody to leave chapter 21 to me!
PLEASE! ;) :)

Thank you in advance!
Lhun

[Aiwendil2]

May I reserve Chapter 22 even if there's a possibility that when the time to do it draws nigh I'll be busy and have to let somebody else have it? If so, consider it reserved. Unless someone else has a pressing desire to do that intro.

[Maedhros]

Aiwendil2, Lhunithiliel, gate7ole and Celebrien, the chapters have been reserved.:)
Certainly Lhunithiliel, does chapters are very closely related and they will probably in the discussion bring forth things from the other chapter, nevertheless, I would want more volunteers so that we can widen the discussion and the scope of it.:)

[Maedhros]

I was talking to Ancalagon (he's full of great ideas), and he came up with the idea that pictures and maps of Valinor and ME would help a lot in the discussion of the Silmarillion, and I couldn't agree more. I would try to come up with pictures concerning the Ainulindalë, and I would like for each person who is going to make the intro, to use pictures or maps to broaden and clarify the discussion.

[Lhunithiliel]

This is a great idea! :p
And here is one to start with:
Welcome to "my" land - VALINOR

[Lhunithiliel]

Maedhros, Confusticated, was it necessary the Valacuenta discussion to be a separate thread?
I admit it is a complicated case to be settled - there are enough pro-s and con-s about it being out of the general thread, yet...
Maybe if Maedhros asks Ancalagon to make it "Sticky"?...
On the other hand, there are too many "Sticky-s" allready....
I don't mind it too much, but thinking of how many chapters ahead we have to discuss .... Does it mean that we should open a new thread for EACH chapter discussed?
--------------
:p I'm editting my post, as I see the Valacuenta Disc. has been already made "Sticky".
Yet, how about the chapters to come? :rolleyes:

[Nóm]

I am under the impression that the chapter discussion are not being closed therefore they are open for people to add things at anytime they like.
So if Valaquenta where added to the Ainulindale thread disorganization could result if people respond to posts in the Ainulindale.
I think it would be a good idea that chapters be made unsticky after the following chapter is finished. It is not up to me to decide this though.

[Maedhros]

Does it mean that we should open a new thread for EACH chapter discussed?
Yes.

[Elfarmari]

could I do Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin also?

[Finduilas]

Can I do the 24th chapter-'Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath'?
Maedhros,I'd like to be told earlier about the date I should do do the discussion.

[Eöl]

When does the first chapter, "Of The Beginning Of Days" begin, or is there no set date?

[Elfarmari]

I will be posting Of the Beginning of Days on November 23.

[Nóm]

Posted by Lhunithiliel in the Valaquenta discussion
Nice contemplations Nym ;) :rolleyes:
Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by Maedhros
What to do and not to do?
This is a "serious" discussion about the Published Silmarillion. It's a place to discuss the book and related material. It's not about discussing the movie, or nonsense chit - chat that has nothing to do with the book. Any member can post any question regarding the book. No one will be ridiculized or mocked. The most simple question will have the same validity as the most complex one. No sarcasm will be allowed.:( (I put this because I do it myself).

Now I know that the smilies, (especially the wink) may be misinterpreted. So might the eyeroll, which is by the way, entitled "sarcastic". Which is why I ask for clarification before slamming this comment you made.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Nóm
Care to elaborate?

Now I know that the smilies, (especially the wink) may be misinterpreted. So might the eyeroll, which is by the way, entitled "sarcastic". Which is why I ask for clarification before slamming this comment you made.

Nóm, I am quite certain Lhun was not being sarcastic in her response, as having read through the posts in question I believe she valued your post just as anyone else would. The use of smilies in this case I do not think were designed to ridicule you, simply to highlight your post. Possibly the wrong selection, but with the thought in the right place.

Rather than cast dispersions, you may wish to seek to PM the person in question for clarity.

[Maedhros]

Elfarmari, it is now Nov 24, where is the Intro of Chapter 1?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Nóm
Care to elaborate?

Now I know that the smilies, (especially the wink) may be misinterpreted. So might the eyeroll, which is by the way, entitled "sarcastic". Which is why I ask for clarification before slamming this comment you made.
Nym, how could you take my words as mocking?!?????? :(

I have always liked to read what you post!

-----

Sometimes I think ..... perhaps people understand other people's words based on the personal attitude towards those people....:rolleyes:
If you don't like someone, everything he/she says will be taken and understood badly! :( :(

Allright... Think whatever you'd like.... But no matter how many times I read that short line of mine I just cannot find any mockery or any attempt to hurt your feelings!

[Nóm]

I did not know if it was mockery or not, which is why I asked.
Sometimes I think ..... perhaps people understand other people's words based on the personal attitude towards those people....
Yeah.
It happens. I sometimes take you as being sarcastic with me. Though only in the discussion thread did I find something wrong with that. Oh well, since that was not your intention then I guess this is cleared up and I wont say anything else about this unless I think it is being done to another member and by another member. Then I will just notify Maedhros about it.

[Maedhros]

If Elfarmari,doesn't post the intro by the 27 of Nov., I will post it.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have thought that a reading/discussion is just this - reading and discussing....but NOT [b]debating.
So, Nym, take it easy! ;)
I think you are wrong.

But I am moving this to the discussion thread since it is off the topic in the chapter discussion thread.

Where does disagreement & discussion turn into debate? As soon as one person defends a point of view that another disagrees with, I would say. What would others say?
As far as I have ever known, the discussion of disagreements/differences in opinions, is an essential part of indepth depth discussion as it allows people to see things from other perspectives and causes them to question their own thoughts. Now if you think debate is of no use, why not speak against your guild engaging in it. Now if it is of use, what's the problem?
Did you not notice other debate type discussions in the Ainulindale thread? One of which involved our former Deputy Guild Leader.
Where you got this idea that debate is not allowed in the discussion thread is beyond me.
I see no problem with it as long as it doesn't turn personal (I think this holds true for all threads), or end up drowning out the other discussion.
Neither of which took place that I am aware of, unless it was the latter?

Correct me if I am wrong.

Though part of this is addressed to Lhunithiliel, I welcome any opinions from others who take part in the chapter discussion, or even not.
What is debate?
Is it allowed in the discussion threads? :D
Need I have taken it easy? ;)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have thought that a reading/discussion is just this - reading and discussing....but NOT [b]debating.
So, Nym, take it easy! ;)

I also couldn't disagree more with that. The process of reading and discussing goes hand in hand with debating - trying to get to the bottom of something. If you just leave something that bothers you (or is very uclear) like it is, than you have accomplished little or even nothing at all. Just my two cents (or should I say euros:D).

[Gil-Galad]

I agree too.Discussing always goes han in hand with debating,because of any difference of opinion.I doubt all we have same opinions and I would say that debating is the next step after discussing something.

[Lhunithiliel]

No! I do not agree!
To discuss is to state your own opinion on an issue.
To debate is to try to persuade the opponent that you are right and he/she is not !
If you consider the Reading/Discussion a debate, then I cannot understand you! Do you mean that each person who posts an opinion actually tires to persuade the rest of us that we ALL are wrong in thinking what we are thinking, and that the only rightfull opinion and understanding is the one of the poster?????

I don't buy this! Sorry!

Debating is completely different from discussing!

And the Reading/Discussion activity then would be called a Reading/ Debating activity!

[Nóm]

Well, there must be something in specific that bothers you about debate occurring within the discussion thread. What is that? No others have complained, so it may be a problem that only you see. Please enlighten?


I think debate might hinder a discussion if it goes too far. I think in such a case it may be best to create a thread to continue the debate. But who is to judge when a debate has gone too far within a discussion?
I think a solution would be to allow debate in the discussions but if anyone ever thinks it's going too far, post about that in this thread and give reasons. It can then be decided by the people involved in the debate if they would be willing to drop the subject, or start a new thread.
Just a suggestion


I'm also curious about this: Was it something I said? Or just the fact that it was debate?
1)Why didn't you express this concern during the more intense debate that took place in the Ainulindale discussion? There have been other debates in the discussions as well.
2) Why tell me to take it easy when two others were debating too? Also, bearing in mind the fact that it was my answer to a question which was challenged that spawned the debate that I was involved in.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nom, as you see this matter as a personal one, I'd better PM you and try to answer your questions. OK?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Nom, as you see this matter as a personal one, I'd better PM you and try to answer your questions. OK?
Okay, though only a portion is personal.
The rest I still think we should discuss here, the "debate problem". That is, if there is one we should find a solution.
What do others think?