Gnomes

[Smokey]

Why are gnomes only mentioned in the lost tales and the other books about the history of Middle-Earth? Was it an idea Tolkien gave up on?

[Cian]

The word associates with Greek gnome "thought, intelligence", not its popular association of course, and referred to the Elves often called the "Noldoli" in Lost Tales ~ "Noldor" appears in the "original text", for example, in that section VII "The Flight of the Noldoli" The Book of Lost Tales Part I. Ultimately Tolkien began to grow dissatisfied with it though, due to the popular association.

Aside: a maybe amusing pickle: JRRT was especially concerned with a Spanish translation of The Hobbit where he wrote in reference:

"If gnomos is used as a translation of dwarves, then it must not appear on pg. 63 in the elves that are now called Gnomes."

Interesting, from the Lost Road Quenta Silmarillion:

"Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they met first of all the Noldor, Gnome or Wisdom; and after him they named his race the Wise, whom we call the Gnomes."

Anyway, compare altered, but reminiscent: Bëor's folk calling Felagund Nóm, "Wisdom" and his people Nómin "the Wise", which could be related (as a borrowing) to Elvish *ngolmé "wisdom, knowledge", and *ngolmó "wise person".

[Smokey]

Thanks!

[7doubles]

how abought Feanor in the "palinteer" turgon also glofindell at the road to rivendale not legoles.

[Gary Gamgee]

Originally posted by Cian
The word associates with Greek gnome "thought, intelligence", not its popular association of course, and referred to the Elves often called the "Noldoli" in Lost Tales ~ "Noldor" appears in the "original text", for example, in that section VII "The Flight of the Noldoli" The Book of Lost Tales Part I. Ultimately Tolkien began to grow dissatisfied with it though, due to the popular association.

Aside: a maybe amusing pickle: JRRT was especially concerned with a Spanish translation of The Hobbit where he wrote in reference:



Interesting, from the Lost Road Quenta Silmarillion:

"Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they met first of all the Noldor, Gnome or Wisdom; and after him they named his race the Wise, whom we call the Gnomes."

Anyway, compare altered, but reminiscent: Bëor's folk calling Felagund Nóm, "Wisdom" and his people Nómin "the Wise", which could be related (as a borrowing) to Elvish *ngolmé "wisdom, knowledge", and *ngolmó "wise person".

right i haven't read these books yet but i have glanced at them and Gnomes did worry me, are you saying that gnomes was the first name Tolkien gave to the Elves? Around this time wasn't England also in ME?

[7doubles]

the nominative declention of latin is the nouns action. nom is the latin root of the word noun.:p

[Cian]

Originally posted by Gary Gamgee
... are you saying that gnomes was the first name Tolkien gave to the Elves? Around this time wasn't England also in ME?

Let's let Tolkien say it :) in a draft for Appendix F he wrote:

"I have sometimes (not in this book) used 'Gnomes' for Noldor and 'Gnomish' for Noldorin. This I did, for whatever Paracelsus may have thought (if indeed he invented the name) to some 'Gnome' will still suggest *knowledge. Now the High-elven name of this people, Noldor, signifies Those who Know ... (me edit for brevity) ... Yet they in no way resembled the Gnomes either of learned theory or popular fancy; and I have now abandoned this rendering as too misleading." JRRT

[Gandalf_White]

Wow I didn't know that tokien wrote about gnomes. To me gnomes are a mix of hobbits and dwarves. What do you think.;)

[Theoden]

I think I agree with you. Tolkien probably gave up on the idea and then his son picked it up. But I don't know. :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

Gnomes

Sometimes ago I met this word while reading some of the parts of HoME.
Perhaps all of you know too well what this word means.
But I was a bit puzzled.
“Gnome” is an “elf” – a “high elf”, it is said, though there are some explanations concerning the use of this word and what people exactly in ME was denominated by it.
But for the first time I met this word in tales of the East-European people (Russian f.ex.) and there it was equivalent to a “dwarf”, or rather the creature “dwarf” is called a “gnome”.
My surprise grew even more when I read “Harry Potter” (coming straight from England!) where the “gnomes” are described just as some very tiny and usually quite ugly creatures, mostly of non-human outlooks.

Now you tell me what “GNOME is, after all? What do you know about them?

BTW, the same thing happens with elves. Aren’t Shakespeare’s elves tiny creatures – very beautiful and humans-like, but living in the woods, especially IN flower gardens?
So, where have Tolkien’s tall and beautiful, mighty and everlasting elves-craftsmen and warriors all gone?

[Tar-Elenion]

JRRT wrote:

...the word was used as a translation of the real name, according to my mythology, of the High-elven people of the West. Pedantically, associating it with Greek gnome 'thought, intelligence'. But I have abandoned it, since it is quite impossible to dissociate the name from the popular associations of the Paracelsan gnomus = pygmaeus.
Letter 239

[Valinorean]

Whoops! I forgot I was in the HoME forum, and since I have never read them, don't even own them, I defer to the much better answer above that appeared while I was writing ine.

This is the perfect time to have access to the OED, but I don't!

Anyone want to look it up for us? At least we could see how it has been used historically in English. My American Heritage dictionary shows that the word's derivation is from French, and before that, from New Latin, so my guess is that when you came across the word in Russian stories, the translator selected the word "gnome" from the several possible choices, including elf, fairy, and dwarf. Probably without realizing it would be important to us later which word he used.

P.S.
I think we have this translation problem with the Bible, too. Saints end up having horns, instead of being surrounded by light.

[Lhunithiliel]

From Oxford Dictionary:gnome n. - (in stoies) a creature like a small man with white hair and pointed hat who lives in under the ground and guards gold and precious things
= DWARVES - clear stuff

BUT!!!!

gnomic adj. - (of a person or a remark) - clever and wise but sometimes dificult to understand
What a contradiction! Or rather - a mix-up of meanings and use of old and newer meanings!

And what about Elves?:confused:

[Nóm]

Over at the Barrow-downs forum a member posted a compilation of quotes dealing with the word Gnome. It's posted by Sharkû, just couple posts into the thread. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002212)

[Turgon]

I believe that in English myth and legend, it was Shakespeare himself who did much to change the elves into the tiny creature we know now. Not much earlier in Spenser's Faerie Queen, Elves and Faeries were much more human they later became. The same can be seen in Celtic myths with the Faerie Folk being much more beautiful and dangerous then their later English counterparts.

Tolkien's essay 'On Fairy Tales' is well worth reading on the subject, and I think that in the early Book of Lost Tales version of the Sil. Tolkien had accounted for this fading in his own Mythology, with the Elves that remained behind in Middle-earth after the Dominion of Men, becoming indeed like the Elves of English legend.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you, Confusticated for providing the link to the “Barrow-Downs”-forum.
It was educative!

But what I’m trying to find out is how and WHY the meaning of this word changed.
The usual trend is that a language changes as a result from certain changes in the historical development of the people that speaks it. The quotes provided here clearly state this fact. Tolkien – father and son, wrote quite a lot – both through some characters and in their own explanations, that the Elvish language changed from Quenya – the original and only language the first elves spoke – to some other variants like Sindarin, the language spoken in Beleriand, as well as about some other variants that appeared, due to the fact that some Elves never got to Aman nor to Tol-Eressea or because the Noldor-clan had spent a lot of time in ME before returning back to Aman. These historical facts resulted in great changes in the Elvish language and in the appearance of new languages.
Besides, there was the influence from the languages of Men after Men and Elves had become closer and had started to communicate more.
This process is inevitable! It is quite obvious in our days too. I strongly doubt it that people from ancient England ever had words in their language for the things/events etc. that appeared in their lives when the Romans came to the island, or later, when the Normans or the Brits (from Breton-France) came… etc. English is such a conglomerate of languages! And it’s normal because it has been influenced by the historical development of the English-speaking nation.

In the light of this theory, I suppose that the original meaning of the word “gnome”, which came from the ancient Greek civilization, passed through the Roman (Latin) language, still preserving its original meaning, changed eventually because of the historical fact that peoples from other nationalities, who dwelled for a certain period on the British Island, did not use the word in its proper meaning.

On the other hand, the quote here:

gnome

\Gnome\, n. [F. gnome, prob. fr. Gr. gnw`mon one that knows, a guardian, i. e., of the treasures in the inner parts of the earth, or fr. ? intelligence, both fr. gnw^nai, gignw^skein, to know. See Know.] 1. An imaginary being, supposed by the Rosicrucians to inhabit the inner parts of the earth, and to be the guardian of mines, quarries, etc.

2. A dwarf; a goblin; a person of small stature or misshapen features, or of strange appearance.

3. (Zo["o]l.) A small owl (Glaucidium gnoma) of the Western United States.

4. [Gr. ?.] A brief reflection or maxim. --Peacham.

gives reasons to think that with becoming more “material”-orientated, people changed the meaning of the immaterial “knowledge” guarded by the Gnomes with the material meaning of “treasures”.

This is how I imagine the meaning of the word “gnome” changed.

What do YOU think of all that?

Besides, concerning the Elves – this is another interesting issue. Unfortunately, I know too little about them. Perhaps that’s why I’m so interested in them!
Therefore, I would appreciate it, if forum-mates, coming form nations where Elves are quite well known from their people’s folklore, tell me and us a bit more about these creatures. And it would be wonderful if they provide information from sources different from Tolkien mythology.

[gate7ole]

Gnomes was the original name of the Noldor. Tolkien actually used this name for the second clan of the Eldar for almost half a century. Even at the period when he was writing Lotr, this word was still in existance. Afterwards it disappeared completely for no known reason (at least to me).
Of course the word derives from the fact that the Noldor were the most eager Elves to knowledge.
When I first read it, I was surprises because in many other fantasy worlds the gnomes are mischief small creatures, which means quite the opposite of the High-Elves. I still can't explain why the word "gnome" took such a reputation and why Tolkien abandoned it.

Now, concerning the image of the elves in other myths as small faerie creatures, I think it can also be seen in Tolkien's work. What will be the future of the elves after the dominion of men? Men will usurp the sun and the elves will fade and diminish and grow less in stature. This was probably a way to bring the history of ME to the present. Elves have almost faded and are heard only in fairy tales, hobbits have managed to be forgotten and live somewhere carefree... Tolkien prior goal was to create a mythology of the world. His intention was to reach somehow the present and thus he had to keep in mind all the tales and myths.

[Cian]

Originally posted by gate7ole I still can't explain why the word "gnome" took such a reputation and why Tolkien abandoned it.

The answer (from JRRT) appears in the Quote given by Tar-Elenion above.

The OED suggests that whether Paracelsus (16th century writer) invented the word himself or not, it was intended to mean 'earth dweller, and discounts connection with the other word. Compare Greek gnómé 'thought, intelligence'

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Walter
Another possible source for the word gnome would be the greek genomoi...Earth-dweller...
That's right...and Finrod (if Nom is from from Gnome as someone pointed out at barrowdowns) would have met both definitions: cave-dweller and wise..:D

[BlackCaptain]

Umm what exactly are they? Ive started reading BoLT 1 and Have no idea what it is. Also, is this Aliminore place in Beleriand?

I've merged your thread with this one BlackCaptain. You'll find the asnwers for the bulk of your question here.

Ithrynluin :)

[Inderjit S]

'Gnome' was a early name for Noldor and was used in the Lost tales legendarium and pre-LoTR Silmarillion work.