Are Men "guests" on Arda?

[Lhunithiliel]

I’d like to start a discussion.
The topic?
Just read my signature and let’s comment.
Who are we, after all? Are we a “product” of the natural evolution of the primates or are we some “angelic” creatures with a special ….. or non-special mission on Earth?
How do YOU feel about all that?

[Maedhros]

Are we a “product” of the natural evolution of the primates or are we some “angelic” creatures with a special ….. or non-special mission on Earth?
In Tolkien's works, we are a direct creation of Ilúvatar. In the real world, we are the product of evolution.:)

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
In Tolkien's works, we are a direct creation of Ilúvatar. In the real world, we are the product of evolution.:)

Maedhros said it best right there.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
In Tolkien's works, we are a direct creation of Ilúvatar. In the real world, we are the product of evolution.:)
Is that ALL you have to say, Master Maedhros?! :eek:

[Lhunithiliel]

From "The Music of the Ainur":
'Lo! After the departure of these Ainur and their vassalage
all was quiet for a great age while Iluvatar watched. Then on
a sudden he said: "Behold I love the world, and it is a hall
of play for Eldar and Men who are my beloved. But when
the Eldar come they will be the fairest and the most lovely
of all things by far; and deeper in the knowledge of beauty,
and happier than Men. But to Men I will give a new gift, and
A greater."
Therefore he devised that Men should have a free
virtue whereby within the limits of the powers and substances
and chances of the world they might fashion and design their
life beyond even the original Music of the Ainur that is as
fate to all things else. This he did that of their operations
everything should in shape and deed be completed, and the
world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Lo! Even we Eldar
have found to our sorrow that Men have a strange power for
good or ill and for turning things despite Gods and Fairies to
their mood in the world; so that we say: "Fate may not
conquer the Children of Men, but yet are they strangely blind,
whereas their joy should be great."
Now Iluvatar knew that Men set amid the turmoils of the
Ainur would not be ever of a mind to use that gift in harmony
with his intent, but thereto he said: "These too in their time
shall find that all they have done, even the ugliest of deeds
or works, redounds at the end only to my glory, and is trib-
utary to the beauty of my world."
Yet the Ainur say that the thought of Men is at times a grief
even to Iluvatar; wherefore if the giving of that gift of freedom
was their envy and amazement, the patience of Iluvatar at its
misuse is a matter of the greatest marvelling to both Gods and Fairies.

It is however of one with this gift of power that the Children of Men dwell only a short time in the world alive, yet do not perish utterly
for ever, whereas the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless
they be slain or waste in grief (for to both of these deaths are
they subject), nor doth eld subdue their strength, except it
may be in ten thousand centuries; and dying they am reborn
in their children, so that their number minishes not, nor
grows.
Yet while the Sons of Men will after the passing of
things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur,
what Iluvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's
end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko has not
discovered it.'
So, who are we – Men…or WHAT are we? If we were designed by someone with a specific and a particular mission that ONLY he – the Creator knows, and once we are predestined to dwell only temporarily on Earth, then what do you think is the true purpose of our existence?
'Now we Eldar are your kinsmen, and your friends also (if you will believe it), and we have observed you already through three lives of Men with love and concern and much thought. Of this then we are certain without debate, or else all our wisdom is vain: the fear of Men, though close akin indeed to the fear of the Quendi, are yet not the same. For strange as we deem it, we see clearly that the fear of Men are not, as are ours, confined to Arda, nor is Arda their home.
.... The Eldar say of Men that they look at no thing for itself; that if they study it, it is to discover something else; that if they love it, it is only (so it seems) because it reminds them of some other dearer thing? Yet with what is this comparison? Where are these other things?
Have you ever had such thoughts or/and feelings?
'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
Could it be that THIS is the purpose of our creation?….. For if so, then we are definitely failing the plans of our “creator”!
And on the other hand, if we are “guests” only, where would be our true home?

What do you think? :confused:

[Nóm]

While Finrod is my favorite Elf, and I value his wisdom, I really don't tend to believe those things that he says. They could be true though but I will not assume that an Elf...not even the beloved Finrod would know the answers to such questions. I don't even think that he himself thought that these things were so, perhaps they were just passing thoughts, or half beliefs...I do not know. The elf is wise, and at the best I can figure he would ot have assumped to know these things, so he was just wondering about them.

When I read this I didn't give a lot of consideration to the validity of the ideas of Finrod, rather I just read and enjoyed them. I was obviously blown away by this conversation for more than 1 reason. First of all those speculations are very interesting, second, the story of Andreth is very touching, and from my point of view it is unique among all the Tolkien that I have read. And third, we get to know Finrod through a bunch of dialog.

Now I you are asking about our (us people on this planet Earth) purpose: I do not know it, or even know if there is one.
I could wonder myself to death about it, or not.
I just want to get something clearned up here: are speaking of Arda or Earth? It seems to be that you are asking about both as though they are the same. Which is fine with me, i fyou believe this thing...I just did not suspect that you did until now.

[Galdor]

Originally posted by Maedhros
In Tolkien's works, we are a direct creation of Ilúvatar. In the real world, we are the product of evolution.:)

I beg to differ, in the real world man was created by God for His glory. Ok, back to the topic, in ME I wouldn't say that Men are "guest". Obviously they are not permanent dwellers in ME, but they are just as much children of Ilúvatar as the Elves are, they were just given the gift of death. I would say that Dwarves rather then Men are the real "guest" in ME.


Who are we, after all? Are we a “product” of the natural evolution of the primates or are we some “angelic” creatures with a special ….. or non-special mission on Earth?
Are you talking about in ME or in the real world? If ME then I see no "special mission" Man was created for. But if you are talking about the real world, then it's a whole different story.

[Lhunithiliel]

Both of you are practically asking me the same question - : "Do I consider ME and our Earth one and the same?"
Mmmmmm....... If I start know explaining this, then I'd rather open another thread.
So, why don't you comment in both cases:
ME = Earth
ME - not Earth

And Galdor,
If ME then I see no "special mission" Man was created for.
Consider this once again:
'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: , to heal the Marring of Arda already foreshadowed before their devising;and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World !
How can you say that Men from ME did not have special mission. At least the Valar and the Elves were quite sure about this.
And I'm sure that Maedhros can provide several more quotes on the subject! ;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Walter, it seems you postes a few moments before I did, so I did not read your post while I was writing mine.

What you've said is IN FACT that makes me think that we unconsciously act as if we are "guests" on this planet. We care about nothing! We just USE! CONSUME! DESTROY!

I somehow think (or would like to think) that Tolkien probably had the same fears, especially taking into consideration the time he created the LOTR. Maybe just because of this he created the Elves, and he wrote works that would turn our attention to this fact!

What is even more intriguing to me is that..... sometimes I do feel as if we are expected, designed and believed to do something very important, yet not HERE!

As for the question is ME our Earth - well it is how you feel it! ;)

[Galdor]

'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: , to heal the Marring of Arda already foreshadowed before their devising;and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
Sorry, I didn't read that before I posted. I don't know much on this subject so I will have to look into it before I post much more. As to the real world part, I don't have time to go into it right now but will do so in the near future.
ME = Earth
ME - not Earth Which one is the "real" Earth?

[Nóm]

There is a whacky idea I got while first reading The Silmarilllion, then shortly after I came to one of the songs in the book and it struck me because he seemed that it hinted at (or at least could be twisted in such a way that one might claim that it hinted at) the idea that I had.

Farewell sweet earth and northern sky,
for ever blest, since here did lie
and here with lissom limbs did run
beneath the Moon, beneath the Sun,
Lúthien Tinúviel
more fair than mortal tongue can tell.
Though all to ruin fell the world
and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
yet were its making good, for this --
the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea --
that Lúthien for a time should be.
This strikes me not only because it reminded me of my whacky idea but it also seems out of place, and doesn't point well enough to anything known to us in the book.
I wonder that I haven't read ANY posts about this song at the forum.
I think it is the biggest food for thought out any of the Tolkien writings that I have read.
Not into the abyss...but the OLD abyss.....hmmmmmm
Was the world already before?
I could also throw in what Finrod said about people studying things because it reminds them of something else.
In fact the whole conversation between Finrod and Andreth could be pulled into this.
I can not concentrate well right now...but I will leave this, maybe you guys will chew on it.

[Dr. Ransom]

Hmmm, not sure I agree with Confusticated. But she's really tuff to argue with about the Sil, I think she has it memorized. I'll go read about it again... :) Oh, just a cheap shot, she's wrong about the real world of course. Just give her some time, she'll see the light. :D

Are we talking about Both Earth and ME? Or just ME?

PS (not to suggest that ME isn't real, of course) :D

[Maedhros]

I beg to differ, in the real world man was created by God for His glory.
While different people have different faiths, there is no "scientific evidence" that a "God" created the human race.
And I'm sure that Maedhros can provide several more quotes on the subject!
You seem to be posting enough quotes yourself.:)

[gate7ole]

Is this equation correct?
ME=real earth
No.
It is only the vision of a great man about a possible state of the earth. An earth with its flaws, but a place that is worth living in. I pessimistically think that real earth will never reach the status of ME, because simply we people are not capable of doing so.
Insetad I would give this equation:
ME=dream of a better earth

What is the role of Men and whether we are "guests".
About the role of Men in ME, I think it says it explicitely in Ainulindale.
As for the real world, the whole idea about being only guests may stand biologically, but not philosophically. Why would we have this exact conversation we have now, if there was not such role for us? Why would nature (if we assume an evolutionary process) provide us with the procedures to think about our role and our future if we didn't have one?

[Éomond]

There is no "scientific evidence" that a "God" created the human race

Well, if we came from apes, or evolution, why aren't we evolving right now today? If you belive in the "big bang" theory, how could every-thing come out so perfect? If you don't blive in that or that God created the Earth a the Human race, how did it come? There has been enough "scientific evidence" that prove the Bible is accurate and true.

Don't worry, I back this up sometime, as soon as I find the stuff:D:rolleyes:.

[Maedhros]

Well, if we came from apes, or evolution, why aren't we evolving right now today?
And who says that we aren't?:confused: The changes are lessened because the human race has adapted their environment, making it less likely to change in time.
There has been enough "scientific evidence" that prove the Bible is accurate and true.
Not in the genesis that I know. It's just a matter of fate.

[Ariana Undomiel]

While different people have different faiths, there is no "scientific evidence" that a "God" created the human race.


Ok, here is what I believe. I believe that everything that is in existance -men, women, animals, trees, plants, rocks, atoms, thought, the earth, the universe and everything in it - was created by an intelligant creator. That intelligant creator is the God of the Bible also known as Jesus Christ. We did not evolve from apes nor did the universe come from some accidental explosion. Neither of those theories make any sense at all. If you want to debate me about this go ahead.

As for Tolkien's world, there was in the beginning an intelligant creator who created beings that were powerful but lesser than He. They then began to create but everything that they created came from the mind of their creator.

~Ariana

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Isildur
Well, if we came from apes, or evolution, why aren't we evolving right now today?
I'm pretty sure that we are. Can you prove that we are not?...you don't have to answer that question though.
Posted by Maedhros
And who says that we aren't? The changes are lessened because the human race has adapted their environment, making it less likely to change in time.
I do not think that we have fully adapted to the environment that we have now. That would be like saying that our body is perfect for the conditions in which we live. It is not. For example why do men stil have facial hair? It isn't needed for most of the humans on this planet. This is no big deal but it is an example that could hardly be argued with.

Originally posted by Isildur If you belive in the "big bang" theory, how could every-thing come out so perfect?
Who said everything is so perfect?...Things are just as we know them to be...this is all we know. We can only compare it with its self, or an imaginary world...which would only be based on parts of things we know from our universe.

Dr Ransom: I do not believe that whacky idea i suggeust....it is just an idea.

[Ariana Undomiel]

I'm pretty sure that we are. Can you prove that we are not?...you don't have to answer that question though.

Ok, big problem in the evolution idea. Evolution is the exact opposite of the scientific law of entropy which states that everything goes from a state of order to state of disorder. The world is slowly falling apart as scientific studies have shown. Society is falling apart. If the law of entropy is true than evolution can't be because it says that we are going from a state of disorder to a state of order. Also, where is there any proof that we evolved from apes? Where are the transitional forms? As far as I know the very few that have been found have been fakes or are ludicrous guesses on the parts of scientists who are desperate to find proof for their theories so that they don't have to admit that there is an intelligant creator.

~Ariana

[Nóm]

:D :D :D

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Ok, big problem in the evolution idea. Evolution is the exact opposite of the scientific law of entropy which states that everything goes from a state of order to state of disorder.
First of all what is considered a scientific law now, may be disproved later on. I am not sure if entropy is even law though...it may be theory....to me there isn't a heck of a lot of difference really. Only that a law SEEMS to have been proven.


The world is slowly falling apart as scientific studies have shown. Society is falling apart.
Even if one observes that society is falling apart who knows what it will end up coming to before it ends? Perhaps something great. Though, I do not hold my breath waiting for this. :)

If the law of entropy is true than evolution can't be because it says that we are going from a state of disorder to a state of order.Even is we are moving in the direction of disorder that does not mean that we are not evolving...for something to change (even from oder to disorder) it must adapt.
Also, where is there any proof that we evolved from apes? Where are the transitional forms?
I an not an anthropologist or any other ologist, however, to me the idea that we humans were once as apes makes perfect sense...If you can understand it as a system...a continual processs of adaption...then you will understand that evolution is something that just happens. It is not an event that took place awhile back wherein apes suddenly morphed into humans within the span of a day or even a thousand years.
In fact we can watch evolution of living creatures take place. If we look at insects with short lifespans we will see that even over 20 or so generations that the insects have changed.
We know this happens with viruses..which is why we have so many strains of the common cold, the flu...aids..and so forth.
It hapens with bacteria as well...which is why we are constantly making newer and stronger antibiotics. I do not know the stats right off the top of my head but if you look up the history of treatment of..say...the step or staph bacteria...you will see alarming numbers. A bacteria which was 99% killed by plain pencillin (sp?)...is now so strong that penicillin is baby food for them.
Go into a hospital....ask a nurse if you know one...
But I think most people will agree that bacteria are evolving...and need not ask a nurse.
Is these little guys are adapting, why wouldn't we?:rolleyes:
The planet is full of species and subspecies, subspecies are those who broke away from the originally group and went into a diffferent environment in which they were required to adapt different to.


As far as I know the very few that have been found have been fakes or are ludicrous guesses on the parts of scientists who are desperate to find proof for their theories so that they don't have to admit that there is an intelligant creator.
~Ariana
There have been fakes. As I said above it is a system..and a system is more believable to me because it explains it's self. It holds together and makes sense.
Some (not all) who speak against theories of evolution plain do not even understand the meaning of the word. Let alone grasp how it would work.

[Dr. Ransom]

Yes I know Confusticated, I was just teasing you. I'm feeling mischevious today... Isn't it wierd how no matter what we talk about, eventually this forum gets into the good old Creationism vs. Evlolutionism debate :)

Just two new thoughts, than I'll quit.

1# The three most important people to shape the 20th century were Karl Marx, Fruod (spell?), and Darwin. Marx and Fruod have already met the block, Darwin is next. We are already starting to see the turnaround in the scientific comunity. I think the theory of evolution has maybe another 30-40 years at most, than they'll come up with something new.

2# (this is for discing the importance of facial hair :)) If facial hair is just random evolution, than why don't you have it too? (Joke, not ment to be scientific)
Good night all.

[Lhunithiliel]

In Letter 152, Tolkien wrote to Hugh Brogan, "Middle-earth is just archaic English for oikoumene/ecumene, the inhabited world of men .
"In Letter 183, Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King , "The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd>middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumene ,the abiding place of Men , the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell)."

This is to turn this discussion back to the track, although the girls have provided exciting theories.

The above quote I provided in order to calm down my own thoughts of whether ME = our world, or not. Well, a lot of you have firmly stated it is NOT. But if the above is taken into consideration (and I'm willing to do so), then I feel free to think and speak on the present topic having in mind ME = our Earth, which STILL is "the abiding place of Men ".

[Nóm]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Why would we have this exact conversation we have now, if there was not such role for us? Why would nature (if we assume an evolutionary process) provide us with the procedures to think about our role and our future if we didn't have one?
We had/have a role....but I do not know about purpose.
Our role was, as far as I can figure...(and that isnt far ;)) the same as all other living things on this planet:to function as part of the ecosystem.
In short, be part of the food chain. To devour and fertilize....keep things fresh and healthy..:rolleyes:..Or I'm talking nonsense? :D

We have instead, taken on another role. Something like a bully of the planet. "give me your lunch money! I'll beat you up anyhow!":D This may lead to nothing but disctruction...and if so, then I think it could be said that we had no purpose. Unless it was to cause distruction..and that is a whole other thread right there.
But if we end up making something better of ourselves or in harmony with the other life on Earth then I would admit that we might have had a purpose.
Maybe we have one, maybe we do not.

[Lhunithiliel]

From the UT: And Galadriel said: "Where now is the Stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil is gone who made it." "Who knows?" said Olorin. "Surely," said Galadriel, "they have passed over Sea as almost all fair things beside.And must Middle-earth then fade and perish for ever?" "That is its fate ," said Olorin
+
Walter Lets assume that mankind is a product of evolution (the interaction of mutation and selection), and evolution is still in process. Mankind - which origined through a process of mutation - is now destroying itself and the environment it is living in. This could now be only part of the process of selection. And in a couple of million years from now a new product of mutation could be the dominant race on earth ...
Well, just a though.....perhaps born by my love for ScF.
If...Or rather WHEN the Earth meets its "fate", the humans will have long ago found other places to live in - somewhere in the vast "halls of Eru". However the conditions there will certainly not be as on this planet. So, with the help of the everlasting ability to adapt to an environment, mankind will change and this will result in new mutated forms of former humans. How will they look like? Who can tell! ;)

My two cents for the evolution discussion (although I have NO idea if I used this expression properly!:p But I've seen it so often and I guess the meaning..... I'm learning ;) )

[Galdor]

You guys are right, God cannot be proven to exist by science, but on the other hand, nether can evolution. Both views must be taken by faith, sense there is no way to prove ether one by the scientific method. The difference is that there is a whole lot more evidence to support that God exist than that we all evolved from apes. I find the amount of faith you evolutionist have amazing, I mean you guys have enough faith in your belief to think such a ridiculous(in my opinion) thing as saying that we evolved from apes.

[Maedhros]

I find the amount of faith you evolutionist have amazing, I mean you guys have enough faith in your belief to think such a ridiculous(in my opinion) thing as saying that we evolved from apes.
Isn't this a personal attack against all of the member who think that?
What makes your faith based "creationism" better than evolution? Creationism cannot be proven by scientific means, it is pure "mythology", it cannot be proven and cannot be taken as canon.
So, is the Cro-Magnon 1 just a myth then?
While the Cro-Magnon remains are representative of the earliest anatomically modern human beings to appear in western Europe, this population was not the earliest anatomically modern humans to evolve. The skull of Cro-Magnon 1 does, however, show the traits that are unique to modern humans, including the high rounded cranial vault with a near vertical forehead. The orbits are no longer topped by a large browridge. There is no prominent prognathism of the face.

[gate7ole]

Evolution is much misunderstood. The scientific facts that prove that we have evolved physically from the apes may be correct. But does it say that we are actually nothing more than evolved apes? I disagree.
The critical point is to understand that the difference from the apes is not just a 10% change in DNA. It has to do with the ability of humans to think about philosophical aspects. This is what elevates the role of mankind in the world. Dolphins can think too, but their thinking process can is limited in taclile subjects. The ability of humans to expand their field of thought in cosmogonic and philoshophical aspects, cannot be explain by any evolutionary process. We did not just become more clever apes. We became beings that concern about their afterlife and the purpose of their existence. I can only explain this change as an intervention of a divine being, during the evolutionary process. Thus, I adopt the opinion that Mankind was "meant" to exist in the world, for whatever purpose the creator has planned and that we are not just guests in Earth. It is our field of progress and existence.

[Galdor]

Isn't this a personal attack against all of the member who think that?

No,I do not mean that to be a personal attack against anyone. I was simply stating my opinion on it and do not mean it to be offence in any way. Look at it from my point of view, I see God's handy work in everything around me, which is why I think evolution is a ridiculous theory. But you are free to your opinion just as I am free to mine, and I respect your opinion, even though I think your very wrong. And as I said though nether can be completely proven by science, there is way more scientific and historical proof that God exist and that the Bible is also true. How can you explain the accuracy of the Bible, a book tat was written over a period of 1600yrs and had over 50 independent authors? As to the Cro-Magnon,
Evolutionist now admit that the Cro-Magnons were identical to modern humans although, like the Neanderthals, they often had larger brains than the average person today. Far from being "subhuman," they were merely a tribe of people that often dwelled in caves and hunted bison. Today, Cro-Magnon man is classified as Homo sapiens sapiens, the same as humans today.

[Maedhros]

How can you explain the accuracy of the Bible
What accuracy is that?
Yes, the Cro-Magnon are classified as homo sapiens sapiens and yet they have certain differences from a homo sapiens from today.:)
I see God's handy work in everything around me, which is why I think evolution is a ridiculous theory.
And you're proof is where?
And as I said though nether can be completely proven by science, there is way more scientific and historical proof that God exist and that the Bible is also true
You are free to post it anytime.

[Ariana Undomiel]

I agree with Galdor. I mean take the human eye as an example. It is sooo complex that scientists are still discovering new things about it and is functions. Or how about the soul? Are you telling me that we are different from all the other animals on the planet with our feelings and emotions and that we got it all by chance. I mean even Einstein said that the more he studied and observed the universe the more he was convinced that there is an intelligent creator.

I would ask you, what real proof do you have that man evolved from apes? And what would you accept as evidence that God created the universe and that the Bible is true?

~Ariana

[Maedhros]

I would ask you, what real proof do you have that man evolved from apes?
I'm not an expert of the evolution theory, but I believe that both apes and men had a common ancestor.
And what would you accept as evidence that God created the universe and that the Bible is true?
Hmmmm. Statements from the bible that can be proven with facts and not faith. Simple

[Ariana Undomiel]

Ok, I will definately get some for you.

~Ariana

[Dr. Ransom]

NO NO No Ariana Undomiel! Please Please check your sources better next time!!! All this stuff was made up by a complete nut case. The same guy claims to have found the Ark of the Covanent. I don't have the exact link but you can read the entire story of his fraud in the Creation Ex Nelio magezine. If you want some good creation evidence, vist ICR.org. These guys are real scientist, not metal ward escapes. They might have the facts on this nut case too. Please let me know where you found his stuff so I can be better prepared for next time he suckers someone. :-) There is NOTHING I dislike more than a dishonest fool who claims to be a creationist. Anyway, I have to go finish a book I'm reading by Augustine. ttyl, and sorry for ripping apart your post...

Ransom

[Flame of Anor]

Originally posted by Maedhros
What accuracy is that? Galdor was saying that one form of accuracy can be found in the fact that it was written over a time period of about 1600 years, with over 50 authors, and not contradicting itself once. I personally find that amazing and a miracle of God.

Also, another thing. The Bible, if compared to history, it does not contradict that either. In fact, the Bible reinforces history.

-Flame