Judgement of Luthien debate

[Nóm]

Alright everybody, this debate (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6560) is waiting to be judged. The poll is open for all members, but the result of that will not count as a vote with the judges panel.
The judges will be:
YayGollum
Ravenna
Manwe Sulimo (new member of TTF)
Gothmog
Confusticated
Us judges are expected to explain our conclusions and give thorough reason for our decisions.
Thanks to the judges, and thanks to Beorn for clearing some junk out of the debate thread for smoother reading.

[Grond]

Yay is having some trouble with his posting so I am posting his comments here on this thread.posted by YayGollum
I voted for the Ost-in-Edhil people. sorry about that. The main thing that decided my vote was that quote where it talked about how her beauty made it so that noone would mess with her. That Maedhros wouldn't even think about messing with her. The Maedhros part kind of shot down the arguement the Tolkienologist people had because they kept on saying that Maedhros wouldn't attack her because he didn't want to get embarrassed by losing to some elf lady and some human dude. Wouldn't that require thought to come up with, "Oh, I won't attack because I don't want to get embarrassed!"? oh well.

I also think that oath the SoF took would be a little stronger than "Oh, I won't attack because I don't want to get embarrassed!" Maybe I'm just crazy. It's true that the oath never said anything about not backing out when you didn't want to get embarrassed.

I liked the point that one Ost-in-Edhil person came up with that Luthien's beauty was the only thing that made her any different from anyone else that the SoF might have to steal the Silmarils from, but still, the quote where it says that noone would mess with her because of her beauty was what made me vote for Ost-in-Edhil. Hypothetical situations aren't much against real quotes. Whoops! I hope that's a good enough explanation for you crazy people. sorry I don't have quotes anymore.

[Ravenna]

I voted for the Tolkienologists.
Firstly I have to say that I think Ost-in-Edhil had the harder case to argue, and did it very well too, but they could not convince me that Luthien's beauty and that alone prevented the Sons of Feanor attacking her.
The quotes used which directly referred to her beauty, did not in my mind, state clearly enough that this is what prevented attack, they simply told us how magnificently beautiful she was, which nobody can argue with. They may state that no one would assail her while she wore the Silmaril, but I take that to be because of who was wearing it, her reputation, rather than the fact that it was a beautiful person wearing it. After all, Dior was known as 'the fair' and when he wore the Sil, he in turn became the 'fairest being in ME' yet he was attacked.

The fact that Luthien, (along with Beren of course) had done the almost impossible and captured a Silmaril, had, as the Tolkienlogists stated, made her a national hero, and any move against her would be greeted with universal condemnation, thus jeopardising any chance of cooperation in regaining the remaining gems, seems a much more solid line of reasoning. Although, I have to agree with Ancalagon that it is unlikely that shame at the prospect of being bested by a female played much of a part.
My congratulations go to all who debated so vehemently. My thanks to Confusticated for inviting me to judge.

[Gothmog]

I have been reading over the debate and would first and foremost like to congratulate all the participants who have made it such a difficult debate to judge.

The Question of this debate asked "Was the Beauty of Lúthien plus the Silmaril enough to keep the Sons of Fëanor away?

Ost-in-Edhil Said that it was.
The Tolkienologists claimed it was not.

Ost-in-Edhil as well as the original quote also brought up about the Oath:
vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.
posted by Ancalagon.
The Tolkienologists brought up a number of arguments against the Beauty. The best of these in my view includeShame. Plain and simple. You have the Sons of Fëanor, princes of the Noldor, who had come out of Aman to pursue Morgoth to regain the Silmarils, and yet they were bested by an elf and a man. Lúthien and Beren became heroes for the Elves in Beleriand. To attack them would have been counterproductive. Their own people wouldn't approve such a thing.
posted by Maedhros. andReally, and the fact of the matter that she was the hero of the land didn't in any way prevent an attack from them. The fact that they were ashamed by being bettered by a female elf and a man. But unfortunately were unable to bring to light any compelling quotes to convince me that these points would be enough to stop the Oath.

It was then brought up that Luthien had only one of the Silmarills
I would say that there were 3 silmarils in total. Morgoth still held two of them. It would have been counterproductive to try and attack the hero of Beleriand, a battle in which they would have had no support whatsoever. Instead they did the right thing, they waited for their son Dior, who had not the same status and assaulted him. Althought this action was seen as bad, the other one would have spelled disaster for them. However, this still did not convince me as the Oath of Fëanor which the sons took mentions only a Single Silmaril. So the fact that Morgoth still held two could not affect it in any way.
To me, the most compelling arguments were in favour of it being the Beauty of Luthien while wearing the Silmaril that kept the Sons away. The Tolkienologists were unable to show to me a convincing alternative.

My vote is for Ost-in-Edhil.

[Nóm]

The Tolkienologists could have had a better opening arguement. They claimed that the Valar had given Beren and Luthien a time of peace and tranquility and that this was the reason that the sons did not assail Luthien. Even if it was the work of the Valar that Luthien not be assailed, such things still must be achieved through actions that have reasons.
It failed to explain what kept the sons of Feanor away.

Claims like this one from Ost-in-Edhil...
The deeds of Lúthien and Beren were well known throughout Beleriandand well into Eregion. Of all the Men of Middle-Earth and the Elves east of the sea, only Beren and Lúthien had struck an effective blow against Morgoth directly. Any assault against them would be perceived by nearly all the Eldar and Edain as not only an act against Doriath, but as a move in beneficial to Morgoth as well.
I agree with this, but even all of Ost-in-Edhil's excellent attempts to convince me that this was a part of her beauty failed.

This claim by The Tolkienologists...
As Anc, has pointed out, their deeds were renowed among all those who knew of the evil of Morgoth and to attack such heroes would be counterproductive, because even their own people wouldn't approve such an assault, and it would hinder their possibilities of regaining the other two Silmarils that Morgoth held in his control remember. Nothing to do with beauty whatsoever.
I agree with, and none from Ost-in-Edhil could disprove this.
By The Tolkienologists...
Quite frankly; the brothers Celegorm and Curufin, they already had, and this shows that they were quite prepared to attack Luthien, and indeed they did after she escaped from Nargothrond.
It was pre-silmaril Luthien who Curufin tried to kill. So the way I see it, it only proves the fact that Luthien was enchanced (changed) by the silmaril.

This by the Tolkienologists...
so surely the two beauties together would merely heighten the desirability of assaulting them.
The two beauties being Luthien & the silmaril.
I agree with this, but Ost-in-Edhil could not convince me that this greater beauty stopped the sons from assailing Luthien.
If you can claim that all these things are part of her beauty then where does it stop? By your reasoning absolutely everything about Luthien is part of her beauty.

What does our poor side have left to debate on??

hehehe...
Unfortunately this bickering that went on about the definition of beauty proved nothing for me.
I don't mean to kick a dead horse
A lot of kicking of dead horses went on in this debate.
I can't comment on everything that took place but I'll wrap this up:
What decided this debate for me was the claim by the Tolkienologists that to attack Luthien would be counter-productive because it would lessen their abilities to regain the other silmarils.
It is put very nicely here, and is said in other words elsewhere...
Their main purpose was to obtain ALL the Silmarills. By attacking openly the renowned couple, even if they succeeded, the disapproval even within their folk would be too great and they would never again be able to attack Morgoth for the two other stones.
I think we had some excellent debators here and many things were contradicted, but I agree with this statement by a Tolkienologist...
And the opponents seem to avoid contradicting our argument that deals with the core of their indecision to attack Luthien that refers to the arguement in my previous quote.
I do not know why the Tolkienologists even bothered to throw in other reasons such as shame.

The Tolkienologists have my vote by an inch.

[Rangerdave]

I don't want to sound impatient or anything, but Manwe Sulimo hasn't been heard from on any of the forums since 10-27-02.

Since we stand at two votes for either team, I think you might want to either ask another member to act as the tie-breaking official or simply declare this event a draw.

Just a suggestion.
RD





Durnit! I need to know! I need to know! :eek:

[Nóm]

Manwe was at the forum yesterday. 2 days ago he said that he would have his judgement posted today. Well I see he didn't do it yet. I will contact him tomorrow and tell him that if can't do it right away that someone else will. Either way I will post here tomorrow and let you guys know what is going on. In the meanwhile, I will be considering who might replace Manwe.

[Manwë Súlimo]

I appologize for the lateness in my judgment. I have been bogged down in school (Midterms are comming up). (expletive deleted) homework. But I will have it posted by Sunday at the latest. Again, I appologize fot the delay.

[Nóm]

Alright, you guys want to wait until sunday? Or should ask someone else?

[Rangerdave]

Well, I was just trying to be funny.
(I guess I'll never learn)

Anytime before Christmas vacation will be fine

RD

[Arvedui]

We can wait, no problem.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Ok here is my vote ::queues 2001 music:: it is for ::dramatic pause::
Ost-In-Edhil. The arguments for both sides were very good. There were some instances where it seemed you (both Ost-In-Edhil and Tolkienologists) were arguing both sides of the question. But in the end I think it was RangerDave that made the biggest impression on me with the definition of beauty. Beauty is the sum of all the parts of a person (wich also supports the Tolkienologists) but I find that it supports Ost-In-Edhil more. Sorry about not havin quotes, but I am just to lazy to get them :D. And again sorry for the delay, school is a (expletive deleted).

[Nóm]

Ost-in-Edhil 3
Tolkienologists 2

And again, thanks to the judges. Not one draw! How about that. :D

YayGollum - Ost-in-Edhil people
Ravenna - Tolkienologists
Gothmog - Ost-in-Edhil
Nom - Tolkienologists
Manwe Sulimo - Ost-in-Edhil

[Arvedui]

I want to use this opportunity to thank all my opponents and fellow debaters from the Ost-in-Edhil. This is the first debate of this kind I have participated in, where I had to defend a pre-positioned view, and I found it extremely challenging, mostly thanks to the very good arguments produced by the honorable Tolkienologists.
Also, my thanks go to Nóm for giving us this difficult challenge.
I hope there will be other opportunities like this, it's very stimulating for someone who has discovered that he didn't know as much about Tolkien as he liked to think.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Also, my thanks go to Nóm for giving us this difficult challenge.

You're welcomed! But I want to point out that Gothmog helped me in this. So I did not do it alone.

[Maedhros]

I wish to congratulate the guild of OIE for winning the debate. Cheers.

[Ancalagon]

Thanks Maedhros, and thanks to all who participated in a tough debate. I trust you will all be keen to consider participation in future debates with the same vigour and passion;)

[Maedhros]

I trust you will all be keen to consider participation in future debates with the same vigour and passion
I will continue to participate because i like debating, and I have passion in the works of JRRT.

[Ancalagon]

Do you know Maed, I would never have guessed that for a minute:D