Dagor Bragollach: Debate

[Maedhros]

This is the Debate between Nenya and Confusticated:
The Subject is:
Is the race of Men in general treated fairly through history, comparing them with other good races (those created by Ilúvatar or by a Valar)?
This debate will begin Monday, and it will last through Friday 21:00 GMT.
Confusticated has the choice of sides, and the debate will begin with her post.

[Nóm]

Yes the race of men in general is treated fairly throughout history.

Measuring the treatment of men with that of the other races I observe that their treatment was at least average.
The treatement was fair considering that the treatement of men by the Valar, Iluvatar, and other races of Middle-earth was sometimes good and sometimes bad(though this all relative), and that this ratio of good and bad was about the same for all races.

[Nenya Evenstar]

First of all, I would like to thank Meadhros for picking out the topic. Secondly, thanks to Confusticated for inviting me to debate with her in the first place. :)

No, the race of Men is not treated fairly in general throughout history.

From the very beginning men were treated differently than were any of the other races. The elves, for example, were from the very beginning treated as a wonderful new creation by the Valar, and were protected by them, faught for by them, and made companions by them. The other living beings of ME each in their own ways were also treated more fairly than were the Second Born of ME, for they each got what they desired and desired not what they could not get. Did men get any of this protection? Did they get what they desired? Were they satisfied in the same way as the other races? I should think not! These factors cannot even out and make the way that each race was treated be equal. Men were treated unfairly from the very beginning.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
No, the race of Men is not treated fairly in general throughout history.

From the very beginning men were treated differently than were any of the other races. The elves, for example, were from the very beginning treated as a wonderful new creation by the Valar, and were protected by them, faught for by them, and made companions by them.
Men were treated differenty by the Valar. This alone does not mean that they were treated unfairly in general throughout history. Elves from the beginning were left alone for many years at Cuivnienen, living in terror of Melkor.
Yes, the Valar did protect the elves by imprisoning Melkor the first time. At the end of the first age they went back and got him again, and he was thrown into the void, this was done for all the people not just the elves.
The elves were protected and made companions by the invitation to Aman. Men could not live in Aman though, because they were different from the Valar and the firstborn. They were not cut out to live in the undying lands. So you could not expect them to be invited.
I say that the undying lands are to the elves what after-death is to men. Men will get theirs, they just do not know what this will be yet.


Did men get any of this protection? Did they get what they desired? Were they satisfied in the same way as the other races? I should think not! These factors cannot even out and make the way that each race was treated be equal. Men were treated unfairly from the very beginning.
Men may not have been as protected as the elves, but they were not forsaken by Iluvatar. Iluvatar aided in the war of the ring. This was done for men, not elves who were mostly gone, or leaving very soon.
So men were not satisfied...what of it? Compare that to the great sorrow of the elves who were in Middle-earth. Many of these elves, such as Galadriel, loved Middle-earth but their power was lessening and they eventually had to leave. They couldn't last in Middle-earth whether they wanted to or not.
Men on the other got to stay and become stronger, and shape the world to their own uses.
From the begining? Men and elves both came into a world with Morgoth, though for the elves his name was still Melkor. But that's all it is, a different name. Both had their early existance tainted by his terror and deception.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, perhaps "satisfied" is not a good word in this case. Perhaps I should say "ripped off" instead! I will start in the beginning as the beginning is what outlined practically everything for all races. All quotes are from The Sil:
But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread.... And Melkor made also a fortress and armoury not far from the north-western shores of the sea.... That stronghold was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor; and it was nambed Angband.
This was the situation in Middle-earth prior to the coming of the Elves. What did the Valar do? Even before the Firstborn came the Valar labored in ME by making stars so that the Elves would not be in total darkness. Your assumption that the elves were left alone for many years at Cuivnienen, living in terror of Melkor is not a correct way to look at the picture:
Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.
Orome tarried a while among the Quendi... and brought Tidings back to Valimar; and he spoke of the shadows that troubled Cuivienen. Then the Valar rejoiced, and yet they were in doubt amid their joy, and they debated long what counsel it were best to take for the guarding of the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor. But Orome returned at once to Middle-earth and abode with the Elves.
Manwe sat long in thought upon Taniquetil, and he sought the counsel of Iluvatar. And coming then down to Valmar he summoned the Valar to the Ring of Doom....
Then Manwe said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Iluvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.'
But the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in strength of war, resolving to assault the fortresses of Melkor and make an end. Never did Melkor forget that this war was made for the sake of the Elves, and that they were the cause of his downfall.... the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor.... There Melkor was doomed to abide for three ages long.

Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in ME.... But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk....
The Elves lived in ME without protection only during the time that the Valar were not aware of their existence. Once the Valar found the Elves, they did as much as they possibly could to ensure their safety. Orome told the Valar of their existence and then went to reside with them, and the Valar took direct action to defeat Melkor. Then the elves were invited to Aman because the Valar feared for them in a world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk.

This is how the Elves were treated when they awoke. Were Men treated in the same way? If Men could not withstand the glorious light of the undying lands then why did not the Valar at least try to ensure that ME would be safe for them?

To Hildorien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers.... Ulmo nonetheless took thought for them, aiding the counsel and will of Manwe; and his messages came often to them by stream and flood. But they have not skill in such matters and still less had they in those days before they had mingled with the Elves. Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages.
What a pathetic way to attempt to guide a people! The Secondborn could not even understand the messages! It seems to me that the Valar decided to simply relax in the safety of Aman and watch Men unfold. Thus they were left free for Melkor. Sure, Melkor's strength had not increased yet to its fullest potential when Men first came into the world, but he laced his fingers on them as soon as he could.
But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildorien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into ME.... Of his dealings with men the Eldar indeed knew nothing, at that time, and learnt but little afterwards; but that a darkness lay upon the hearts of Men.....
What is this? So the Elves are protected by the Valar personally, Melkor is destroyed for them, and then they are invited over into Aman to share in bliss so that they do not have to live in the deceits of ME. What is the cup given to Men? They are sent little messages through the waters which they cannot even understand and are left in deceit-filled ME to fend for themselves. They are then found by Morgoth and are "blessed" with a darkness. Where is the fairness in the treatment here?

The Valar took direct action against Melkor for the Firstborn of Illuvatar. Did they do the same for the Secondborn? No! Instead they let Men sit in ME and fend for themselves. The men who did not make the trip to Beleriand early as did the three houses of the Edain became very susceptable to Melkor and his lies. Who can blame them? They had no aid, no guidance, nothing, so they turned to the most likely person they could turn to - Melkor. The Edain came to Beleriand and had the help of the Elves, but what about the rest of mankind? They chose to remain in the East and as a result some were rewarded by being deceived by the Father of Lies, and who can blame them? The Valar let Men sit in the mire and muck of the curse against the Noldor. They had told the Noldor that they would not help in their war against Morgoth. But shouldn't they at least have done something for the men of ME who were stuck in such a terrible situation? Yes, they should have done something to lessen the havoc that Men had to go through, but they did not.

No, men were not forsaken by Illuvatar, but neither were the Elves. I am sure that Illuvatar had the same amount of room in his heart for both races. I will say this, however, that Men were a grief to Illuvatar. Why? Certainly because they had free will in many things, but also because of their early introduction to Melkor. And this was not their fault. Also, Illuvatar's aid in the War of the Ring was much more than just a kind act towards Men. It was not only for all the peoples of ME but also to get rid of Sauron.

As for the other peoples of ME, not much can be said, for we do not know much. What we do know is that the dwarves never wanted or needed anything other than what they had. They were content in their mansions of stone, and were not all that susceptible to the evil of Melkor. Ents were content as well and did not need extra help. As for hobbits, they would not have wanted anything more than they received! They were an all around happy little bunch. But as for men, because of their early treatment they were not treated as fairly as the other races were. Only the Three Houses of the Edain were eventually blessed, and the Valar forsook the other part of Mankind on ME as though punishing them for something that was their own fault, though in reality it wasn't.

[Nóm]

All Quotes here Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Ok, perhaps "satisfied" is not a good word in this case. Perhaps I should say "ripped off" instead!
Switcheroo?. :D

Your assumption that the elves were left alone for many years at Cuivnienen, living in terror of Melkor is not a correct way to look at the picture:
(you gave Sil quotes galore) then...
The Elves lived in ME without protection only during the time that the Valar were not aware of their existence.
Exactly, they were alone for many years. This had to have been how Iluvatar wanted it. So what if Iluvatar did this through not letting the Valar find them sooner? The fact remains that they were left alone for years.



If Men could not withstand the glorious light of the undying lands then why did not the Valar at least try to ensure that ME would be safe for them? This lack of assuring that Middle-earth would be safe for them happend to all the moriquendi and dwarves too.
Middle-earth was ment to be dangerous. It was dangerous for all races. The safety of people depended upon their ability to establish realms and fight for their lives. This was true for every race.


What a pathetic way to attempt to guide a people! The Secondborn could not even understand the messages!
Is it the Valar's fault that men didn't understand? No, that's just the way men are.

It seems to me that the Valar decided to simply relax in the safety of Aman and watch Men unfold. Thus they were left free for Melkor. Sure, Melkor's strength had not increased yet to its fullest potential when Men first came into the world, but he laced his fingers on them as soon as he could.
Oh course he did. He's Morgoth, he wanted to destroyed/currupt all that was created by the other Valar. He wanted to turn men against the firstborn. So what if the Valar were taking it easy back in Aman?
Any inaction by the Valar at this point in time concerned all the races in middle-earth, not just men.


No! Instead they let Men sit in ME and fend for themselves. The men who did not make the trip to Beleriand early as did the three houses of the Edain became very susceptable to Melkor and his lies. Who can blame them? They had no aid, no guidance, nothing, so they turned to the most likely person they could turn to - Melkor. The Edain came to Beleriand and had the help of the Elves, but what about the rest of mankind?
What happend with men is much like what happend with the elves. This is how...
Both were born and existed awhile alone and were open to curruption (deception) by Melkor.
Both races had lost people to Melkor.
Both races were discovered (Finrod/Orome) and aid was offered to them.
In both cases some chose to accept this aid, and others did not.
Those men who did not meet the elves before turning to evil are much like those elves who were captured by Melkor before Orome came. Both groups were victims of Melkor before they knew what even hit them, or knew what was going on elsewhere in the world.
And those men who weren't pulled into evil yet did not become elf friends are much like the elves who fled in terror of Orome. There were men who were frendly with elves but choose to keep to themselves, just as some elves liked Orome but decided to stay in Middle-earth.
The noblest of elves were drawn to Orome, maybe it was the nonblest of men who were drawn to Finrod/the firstborn.

The Valar let Men sit in the mire and muck of the curse against the Noldor.
But men where not alone in this. This happend to elves who weren't cursed, and dwarves too. The whole subrace of petty dwarves was wiped out. Curse of the noldor effected all the races of Middle-earth.


They had told the Noldor that they would not help in their war against Morgoth. But shouldn't they at least have done something for the men of ME who were stuck in such a terrible situation? Yes, they should have done something to lessen the havoc that Men had to go through, but they did not.
As I said above, men where not the only race in middle-earth while the curse of the noldor was at work.
It was Ulmo who sent Tuor to Gondolin which resulted in the war of wrath. Ulmo did much for everyone in Middle-earth during the first age. Melian did much too.
So they did lessen the hell that men went through. Who knows how bad things would be or for how long Melkor's terror would last if not for the help of the Valar which worked in chain reactions instead of outright obvious help.
Men are helped in subtler ways than the firstborn were. Maybe because they do not deal directly with the Valar. They had much protection from the Noldor. The source of men's protection isn't relevant when considering the way they were treated on the whole. If this protection comes in the form of Valar, or Noldor it is protection none the less.

No, men were not forsaken by Illuvatar, but neither were the Elves. I am sure that Illuvatar had the same amount of room in his heart for both races. I will say this, however, that Men were a grief to Illuvatar. Why? Certainly because they had free will in many things, but also because of their early introduction to Melkor. And this was not their fault.
I'm not sure that I recall reading anywhere that men were a grief to Iluvatar..so please quote that. Maybe you are thinking of Manwe? Or maybe I forgot something. Also, it was Iluvatar who gave freewill to men.
No, early introduction to Melkor was not Men's fault. Just like it wasn't elves or dwarves fault that they were introduced to Melkor.



Also, Iluvatar's aid in the War of the Ring was much more than just a kind act towards Men. It was not only for all the peoples of ME but also to get rid of Sauron.
So when Sauron is defeated it is for everyone, but when Melkor is thrown into the void it is only for 1 people? How do you figure this?
And in the longer run, who most benefits from the destruction of Sauron? Who ends up running the world? Men.


As for the other peoples of ME, not much can be said, for we do not know much. What we do know is that the dwarves never wanted or needed anything other than what they had. They were content in their mansions of stone, and were not all that susceptible to the evil of Melkor.
They were fine to stay in caves making treasures but they went through hell in middle-earth just like men and elves.
They had entire realms destroyed by the creatures of Melkor.


Ents were content as well and did not need extra help.
Ents were coming to an end. Ents had been through a lot of hell. The males and females were eventually sundered, the land of the entwives was ruined. Treebeard tells the hobbits of the destruction caused to Fangorn by Saruman including the death of some of his ent friends.
Did not need extra help? What if Melkor weren't removed? What if Sauron had taken over at any point? Ents surely would have suffered even more. With the buttkicking of those two, ents were helped.
But as for men, because of their early treatment they were not treated as fairly as the other races were. Only the Three Houses of the Edain were eventually blessed, and the Valar forsook the other part of Mankind on ME as though punishing them for something that was their own fault, though in reality it wasn't.
I've addressed most of this above. Remember that dwarves were not invited to Aman either.
The elves seem something of a link between the Valar and the men. So the aid to men isn't as direct from the Valar, but the aid is there none the less.
As for hobbits, they would not have wanted anything more than they received! They were an all around happy little bunch.
I'll address hobbits in my final post which will be my next one.

[Nenya Evenstar]

The fact remains that they were left alone for years.
And what exactly is your point? My point was that as soon as the Valar found out about the Elves' existence they made all the effort they could to give protection. With men, the Valar simply let Melkor have his own way. Your last point was that Elves and Men were left for a time alone - yes, they were, but there was a difference: Elves were left only until they were found by the Valar; Men were left even after they were found by the Valar.

It was dangerous for all races.
Yes, it was dangerous for all races. However, you cannot classify the Moriquendi with Men on this issue as the Moriquendi were offered safety in the beginning, only they refused to take it. As for the Dwarves and other races, I have already said that it is difficult to say anything about their past as we know so very little about the happenings and the dealings that the Valar had with them. However, from what is given, can be seen these facts: The Dwarves awoke after the awakening of Elves. As soon as they could after finding the Elves, the Valar came and removed Melkor from ME. This means that the beginning of the race of Dwarves did not have nearly as much evil as Men had to deal with in their beginning. The Dwarves were in their mountains and were relatively safe, and I'm certain that Aule looked out for them. The Dwarves never really needed or deserved the protection of all the Valar for they were not under the jurisdiction of all the Valar - only Aule. The same can be said of Ents. Of The Shepherds of the Trees, even less is known. We are not told when they were awoken or much of what they did. However, your statement that they suffered at least as much as Men as they lost their Entwives etc. holds no water. The loss of the Entwives and their gardens cannot be even remotely compared with the hell that Men went through. Sure some fields and Ents got burned, but compare that to what Men went through... it speaks for itself. Also, I'm sure that Yavanna was there for the Ents much like Aule was undoubtedly there for the Dwarves. Another interesting fact is that the Ents and Dwarves were not under the jurisdiction of all the Valar as were the Elves and Men. I should think that Ents and Dwarves were treated much more fairly than Men were when you compare these facts. The Ents were of Yavanna and the Dwarves of Aule, but Elves and Men were of Iluvatar and their guardians were all the Valar:
These legends are deliberately touched on in Vol. I as being the chief ones in the background of The L.R., dealing with the relations of Elves and Men and Valar (the angelic Guardians) and therefore the chief backward links if (as I then hoped) the Silmarillion was published.The Letters
Some guardians they turned out to be.

"Is it the Valar's fault that men didn't understand? No, that's just the way men are."
I fail to see your point. Instead you solidify mine. This is precisely what I mean! Men couldn't understand, and the Valar had to have known that. Is it fair to give something that cannot be understood and then do nothing about it?

So what if the Valar were taking it easy back in Aman? Any inaction by the Valar at this point in time concerned all the races in middle-earth, not just men.
Again you solidify my points exactly. So what if the Valar were taking it easy back in Aman? I should think that it mattered very much! They were allowing the Secondborn of Illuvatar to be grasped in the fingers of Morgoth as the themselves sat back and watched instead of giving aid and providing safety as they did with the Firstborn. Do you think this is fair treatment? Yes, naturally any inaction by the Valar at this point concerned all the races in Middle-earth, but the race of Men got the worst part of the deal.

What happend with men is much like what happend with the elves.
You are failing to see that the Elves were protected from Melkor as soon as possible, but Men were neglected. As for both races losing people to Melkor, one race lost many more - Men. Comparing Orome and Finrod is impossible. Orome discovered almost the entire race of Elves, but Finrod "discovered" (as you say) only a small portion of the race of Men.

Curse of the noldor effected all the races of Middle-earth.
Yes, it did. I am not saying that the curse of the Noldor was not unfair to these other races as well - just that it was the MOST unfair to Men. The point remains that the Sindar and the Moriquendi had been given the offer of protection, but they did not wish to have it. I have already dealt with the Dwarves. Was it then the fault of Men that they were stuck in the middle of this? The Curse of the Noldor affected all races, but most of all, it affected the race of Men.

Maybe because they do not deal directly with the Valar. They had much protection from the Noldor.
The help that you mention was only granted to the Three Houses of the Edain and a few other lucky men who had migrated into Beleriand. I hardly think that this can be called fair to the entire race of Men. If the only people who are helped are those who chanced into Beleriand, where is the fairness of that towards the numerous other men? Those Men were left and many were ensnared by Melkor - and it was NOT their own fault.

I'm not sure that I recall reading anywhere that men were a grief to Iluvatar..so please quote that. Maybe you are thinking of Manwe? Or maybe I forgot something.
Yet the Ainur say that the thought of Men is at times a grief even to Iluvatar; wherefore if the giving of that gift of freedom was their envy and amazement, the patience of Iluvatar at its misuse is a matter of greatest marvelling to both Gods and Fairies. BOLT I
Yet the Elves say that Men are often a grief
even unto Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Iluvatar. For
Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, and yet he hath
ever feared and hated them, even those who served him.Morgoth's Ring Part I
Manwe and Iluvatar. :)

So when Sauron is defeated it is for everyone, but when Melkor is thrown into the void it is only for 1 people? How do you figure this? And in the longer run, who most benefits from the destruction of Sauron? Who ends up running the world? Men.
When did I say that Melkor was defeated only for the Elves? If I said that I was not aware of it.... The point is and remains that for the most part the race of Men was not given the same things as the Firstborn were in their beginning. This caused many Men to go over to Morgoth (again, not their own fault). Who ends up running the world? Only those of the Edain who helped the Valar and the Elves in the Wars for Beleriand. They paid dearly for this in their own blood. What happened to the rest of Mankind? They were twisted and scorned. Also, who was it that defeated Sauron? I have to say that the race of Men had the biggest part in those Wars! Again, did the Valar heed or give them very much help? No! They sat on their rumps in Valinor where all was comfortable and watched. Yes, those Elves who remained in ME suffered the same fate, but what of it? They could leave anytime they wanted - theirs was the free choice.

But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and Unfallen Valar and gods. He rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.The Letters
This speaks clearly and says that those Men (notice the hordes, meaning that there were many) who had no contact with Elves and thence no knowledge of the Valar were dominated by Sauron. And whose fault was this? It all stems back to the beginning of the days of Men, when the Valar would not treat Men as they did the Firstborn of Iluvatar.

I'll address hobbits in my final post which will be my next one.
Looking forward to it. :)

[Nóm]

I measure that the treatement of the races by eachother is about even. So the treatement by Iluvatar and by the Valar in fulfillment of his will is what is in question here.
Yeah all races went through hell during the fist age because of Melkor, and also because it was Iluvatar's will that the Valar leave Melkor to do his destruction for awhile.
I think the gift of Numenor to the edain is even with the invitations to Aman that the Valar gave to the elves.
The Valar were always working for Iluvatar though. So it is Iluvatar's treatement also.
Elves were given immortality and men the gift/curse of death. I think this treatement in one of the major treatement that elves and men recieve throughout history because it such a big part of their nature..
I can not measure which is better treatment, immortality or death.
I know I am dispointing, but I can not measure who was treated more fairly, and to defend the side that men were, I do not know where to start. In Nenya's postion I wouldn't know where to start either. All I can do is discuss 1 aspct at a time, or everything as a whole.
On the whole i get the impression that men are treated at least as well as the elves.
I can't debate this though.
As for hobbits? I think they were treated better because they had a nature which allowed them to be so easily happy and content in their simplicity,and quick to get joy out of the little things in life, and to heal from hurts.
I can't debate it, but it seems to me that Iluvatar's gift to the firstborn was worse treatement than the gift to men.
I have to say that Nenya won this debate, because it is beyond me to prove what I believe.


I hope Maedhros will extend the debate long enough for Nenya to reply because I had the opening post, so she should get the last. She will not be home until 2300 GMT, but I think she will find time to reply sometime this evening.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thank you to Meadhros and Confusticated for allowing me to post after the debate was supposed to be finished - I was out of town all morning and afternoon. :)

I really do not know what to say... only that you are very gracious, Confusticated! It has been wonderful debating with you, and I can assure you that you did a wonderful job! :)

I will simply end by saying that my stance that Men were treated unfairly in general when compared to the other races of ME is summed up in the following:
1) The Valar treated the Elves in their beginning much more fairly than they did Men in their beginning.
2) Much of the Race of Men was doomed from the beginning simply because of the lack of response and aid from the Valar. They were left on their own and made susceptible to Melkor, and it was not their fault. Thus a great part of the Race of Men was doomed and for no fault of their own. Only those Men who happened into Beleriand (as well as a few others) were lucky enough to escape Melkor. The rest of Men were doomed pretty much from the beginning.
3) Men were left alone, and Elves were pampered.
4) The Ents, Dwarves, and Hobbits were not under the same kind of jurisdiction as were the Elves and Men, and were treated (as shown in the previous posts) in general better than Men were.
5) Thus Men were treated the most unfairly of all the races of ME.

Thank you Confusticated for debating! It has been very educational, and I've enjoyed it a lot! :)

[Maedhros]

I want to thank both Nenya and Confusticated for this debate. I hope that this will be the first of many one on one debates in the guild. I will set up the separate thread in the guild for the judgment of this debate.