PJ's LOTR

[Celebthôl]

In PJ's LOTR, TTT, i have found out that there will be elves at Helms Deep this was a bad idea coz that battle was i think mean't to simbalize that men were faltering on their own, also does this mean that there will be no hourons to help towards the ends of the battle and does this also mean that there will be elves in ROTK at those big battle scenes when everyone is supposed to be relying on the strength of men, this also C***s on the whole theory of the last alliance seeing as how there is at least 1 more alliance after at helms deep.
Incites please

Celeb

[Thorin]

Elves being at Helm's Deep will not negate the role of the Huorns or the Ents, both of which I believe are in the movie....

In my opinion, the deeper meanings and allegories of Tolkien are not really being touched by PJ. And when you throw in the film defenders' arguments that PJ is first and foremost trying to make a GOOD movie, and not a faithful adaptation, then the elves being at Helm's Deep is a great move...Something that some film defenders seem miffed by. :confused:

Who in the movie going public who want to see a "good movie" will really pick up (or care) that the elves don't belong at Helm's Deep because this is the battle that men need to do on their own? Cinematically, it is a great move to create a good exciting movie (again, what FADs seem to use to justify every foolish change PJ makes). Cool elves scrapping with orcs and kicking butt along with other races of ME...Why not?
However, from a faithful adaptation perspective, they do not belong their and it would be better for the purists were they not there, but that sort of complaining draws all kinds of arguments that PJ is not out to do a faithful adaptation but make a great movie....He has done that with this move...And yet, such big issues over it all, yet Arwen is perfectly acceptable. :confused:

Apparently, the FADs want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Celebthôl]

Yeah now you put it like that it sounds better i keep forgetting that the common public probibly don't care weather it goes with the book or not, oh well i chose to love it all and i stick by that!

Celeb

[Ascamaciliel]

i agree, but still, it kinda makes me mad that he changes it, just for the common public

[Celebthôl]

maybe in the ee of TTT he reshot it and it he only had men! :) coz didnt he go back like a few months ago and reshoot some helm deep stuff?

[*Lady Arwen*]

I don't think so, it already came out in the trailers.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Nevele11
I agree, but still, it kinda makes me mad that he changes it, just for the common public
And how does he know what the "public" will like anyway? Why does he have such contempt for them that he has to dumb down for them?

[Mrs. Maggott]

I am a tad more concerned with what happens when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli cover the "retreat" of whomever is "retreating" in a battle against the "Warg riders" - who are apparently mounted on horses (unless they are just large wolves that look like horses. It seems (according to the book put out on TTT) Aragorn is wounded apparently mortally and Legolas and Gimli return to (I assume) Helm's Deep without him!

Now why they would leave his body behind (knowing what orcs do to men, alive or dead!), is beyond me. Aragorn's identity is well known (in fact, it was known by Legolas at the time of the Council!). To leave the body of the rightful King of Gondor to become an entree at an orc repast :eek: seems rather unfeeling, to say the least!

In the end, apparently Aragorn is rescued by the dead Theodred's horse "Brego" whom Aragorn had released because he was suffering from "battle fatigue"(!!?). Well, I guess one takes one's friends where one can find them since it appears that the horse was certainly more faithful than Aragorn's two companions from the Fellowship! :rolleyes:

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I am a tad more concerned with what happens when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli cover the "retreat" of whomever is "retreating" in a battle against the "Warg riders" - who are apparently mounted on horses (unless they are just large wolves that look like horses. It seems (according to the book put out on TTT) Aragorn is wounded apparently mortally and Legolas and Gimli return to (I assume) Helm's Deep without him!....In the end, apparently Aragorn is rescued by the dead Theodred's horse "Brego" whom Aragorn had released because he was suffering from "battle fatigue"(!!?).

:eek: Oh my heck!! Are you trying to tell me that these scenes will be in the movie??? What book was PJ reading?? AAAHHHH!!! It's starting already! Down with PJ!! :mad:

[Mrs. Maggott]

This is in the book that has been released prior to the release of the film; it ain't "rumor". Apparently, Aragorn's "death" is what Arwen sees (in Galdriel's mirror?) and that causes her to go to Helm's Deep - together with some elves from Rivendell? - bringing the newly reforged Anduril. Of course, if she thinks he's dead, what would he need with a sword? But that's beside the point.

As I (and a number of others have said), the further on we go, the more the story will deviate from the book. In some cases this will be the result of changes made in FOTR. In other cases, it will simply be the result of Mr. Jackson's "vision/version" of the story. Certainly, no one thought we would be returning to "orthodoxy" did they?

[Talimon]

This is in the book that has been released prior to the release of the film; it ain't "rumor". Apparently, Aragorn's "death" is what Arwen sees (in Galdriel's mirror?) and that causes her to go to Helm's Deep - together with some elves from Rivendell? - bringing the newly reforged Anduril. Of course, if she thinks he's dead, what would he need with a sword? But that's beside the point.

MM, I'm not sure which book you were reading, but it has been said over and over that Arwen will not be at Helms Deep. Nor has the scene with the Wargs been described to any significant detail anywhere. For all we know Legolas & Gimili get split up from Aragorn in the heat of battle. I hope you realize how your objectivity is plummeting with every accusation you make of TTT prior to it's release. I've said this before in regards to Bakshi: execution is everything.

And as for trueness, PJ has said that in his opinion RotK is the truest of the three movies to the book. Kind of ruins your theory, doesn't it?

[Courtney]

There was an article in TIME this week about the Two Towers, and it said that this movie would be least like the book of all three movies. I don't see why they would have to change this one much though because there are lots of battle scenes and stuff that everyone loves...

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Courtney
There was an article in TIME this week about the Two Towers, and it said that this movie would be least like the book of all three movies. I don't see why they would have to change this one much though because there are lots of battle scenes and stuff that everyone loves...

The reason, Courtney, is that TTT is the least fit to work as a movie. Yes, it has action, but it doesn't have any sort of conclusion. Nothing truely resolves. FotR has the Fellowship breaking, which is a very big turning point in the tale. TTT isn't nearly as conclusive, and fits more comfortably as a companion to RotK. The other issue is that it has no begginning either. As such, it must include enough content that it can still be a good movie without begginning nor end. Personally I get the impression that many of the changes will be slightly trivial when it comes down to it, though. The core scenes of TTT will likely remain. But we'll have to see it for ourselves. Personally, I might add, TTT is my least favorite book of the three anyway.

[Courtney]

thanks pal. I hear your opinion, and I respect it.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Courtney
thanks pal. I hear your opinion, and I respect it.

Quite a rare reaction, in these troubled days! ;)

[Courtney]

Thanks! I understand that there will be differences in the movies. I love reading the books, and I love watching the movies. I also like comparing them, but it won't ruin anyone's life if the movies and the books are not exactly the same.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
This is in the book that has been released prior to the release of the film.
As I (and a number of others have said), the further on we go, the more the story will deviate from the book.
It WOULD be interesting to know what book that is!:-)
I'm one of the others; it has to deviate more, because of the butterfly effect, or the domino effect, of what PJ did to FOTR.
He has let himself in for difficulties, as well as criticism.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by joxy
It WOULD be interesting to know what book that is!:-)
I'm one of the others; it has to deviate more, because of the butterfly effect, or the domino effect, of what PJ did to FOTR.
He has let himself in for difficulties, as well as criticism.

I am sorry for being so obtuse. The book is The Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers Photo Guide (The Illustrated Story From the Epic New Line Cinema Film).

[Pg. 31] "As the refugees and soldiers pass through the mountains, they are ambushed by Orcs riding giant wolf-beasts. They break ranks to engage the legion of snarling Wargs that attack them, and Aragorn becomes locked in a deadly battle with Sharku."

[Pg. 37] "The refugees and Rohan soldiers finally reach the ancient fortress of Helm's Depp. They gather in the Hornberg courtyard. As Legolas and Gimlie gallp through the gates, King Theoden tells Eowyn how they were ambused and that many of their number were killed." {picture showing Eowny with Gimli: caption - "Lord Aragorn - where is he?"/"He fell defending the retreat."}

[Pg. 38] "Having fallen in battle with Sharku, Aragorn is barely alive. As he struggles to get up, an expected champion comes to his aid. {picture showing Aragorn with the dead Theodred's horse whom he had "released" because he suffered from "battle fatigue": caption - "Brego...?"}

[Pg. 39] "Brought safely to Helm's Deep by Brego, Aragorn has urgent news for King Theoden. He has seen thousands of Uruk-hai marching toward the fortress." {picture showing Uruk-hai: caption - "All Isengard has emptied - then thousand strong at least. It is an army bred for one purpose - to destroy the world of Men."}

and so forth.... :rolleyes:

[Talimon]

Mrs. Maggot, if that is true, then it explains to some degree why Gimili and Legolas wouldn't have stayed. If they saw Aragorn fall, then there would be no point in them remaining. Especially, I might add, if things were going south and they had to retreat for thier lives. Aragorn, being "barely alive", would have been mistaken or thought dead. Also, remember that this is PJ's Aragorn: He has not declared yet his lineage, nor his intent to be King. Even in Tolkien when he did, he was not gaurded by body-gaurds. Indeed, him and Eomer almost fall at Helms Deep (only to be saved by Gimili).

[Mrs. Maggott]

I'm sorry, Talimon, but I must seriously disagree with your appraisal of the situation. Legolas had already stepped forward in the Council of Elrond and proclaimed Aragorn's lineage; whether or not he would claim the throne made no difference - he was whom he was.

Furthermore, Aragorn has led the Fellowship since the fall of Gandalf in Moria. Even if he were a stable hand, the loyalty due to him by his remaining comrades cannot be understated. Even at the risk of their lives under the circumstances that prevailed they would have believed themselves honor-bound to at the very least, retrieve their fallen leader's body rather than leave him to the depredations of the orcs.

Certainly, that is the code of honor in battle - and elsewhere - that abounds in Tolkien's LOTR. Alas, it does not altogether surprise me that I do not find the same understanding of "honor" in the film. :(

[Talimon]

Well, we are both clutching at straws, since neither of us have seen the film yet. But I can certainly imagine a scene in Tolkien where the situation simply wouldn't allow for the body to be rescued. It would be a matter of death and foolishness in the name of honor. If Legolas and Gimli are clearly outnumbered, and Aragorns body is on the other side of the battle-field, and there is an army of orcs in between, and they have seen him fall and and apparently die, to me it would not make sense (in Tolkien or otherwise) to go claim Aragorns body and die in the process. And this is assuming they even know that Aragorn has fallen. For all we know the ambush is such a confusion that they don't even notice Aragorn is missing until they've reached safety. But I will not delve any deeper into this, since I do not think any of us have the right to criticize (or praise) TTT without having seen it.

[Mrs. Maggott]

With regard to the above (the retrieval of Aragorn's "body"). I went to a site where someone who has previewed the film speaks about it virtually scene by scene. Apparenty, Aragorn and the Warg (or Warg rider) are locked together when they "fall off a cliff" (?!) into a "river" and are swept away. That is why Theoden and the other two members of the Fellowship believe that Aragorn is dead. Of course, if the cliff weren't a mile high, surely someone should have deduced that he might have survived the fall and therefore wouldn't it be even more incumbent upon the remaining members of the Fellowship to go and look?

Anyway, after that, Aragorn is found floating face up on the river and is subsequently revived by a "dream" of Arwen. If that is the case, it's really too bad that no one thought enough of the poor fellow to go down to the river and see what was what. He could have drowned which would have meant that his death was not the result of war as much as a lack of concern on the part of his comrades.

It will make great cinema, I'm sure, but less sense.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
It will make great cinema, I'm sure, but less sense.
In terms of the film entitled The Two Towers, you mean?!
In terms of the book which, purely by coincidence, has the same title, of course the whole thing would simply be a load of, er, nonsense. I almost used a word that matches PJ's thoughts about fire-light.

[Leto]

haha :) it begins. No, the purists will never be satisfied with such grievous story changes, even before seeing the movie. It is not "all in the execution", it is all in the story. The story we all know and love, and are eager to see performed on screen. Sadly, it seems in this next movie there will be even less of our story than in the last movie. Not that it won't be a 'good movie'...but it won't be our 'The Two Towers'.

The book doesn't have any sort of conlusion? nothing resolved? How about defeating Saruman's army, and stripping him of his power? How about Frodo 'dieing', and Sam deciding to take the ring and continue on? The small bits that come after these two climaxes are what creates the segway into the next book...Sam finding Frodo isn't dead, but is now taken by the orcs...he is left in despair outside the gates of Cirith Ungol. Pippin looking in the palantir, and getting interrogated by Sauron! That is definately a huge event...then Gandalf taking him and riding off. How does that not 'work' cinematically? The last movie climaxed with Boromir's death. It ended with the three hunters running off into the woods, and Frodo and Sam looking out over Emyn Muil.

Another thing...I wouldn't take what PJ says about being 'close to the books' too seriously. I have watched the commentary on the EE, and read other statements he has made...and he does not really know the books too well at all. He thought for sure that Frodo and Aragorn had a scene together before Frodo departed the fellowship, in the book *lol* He said "Now this is a scene right out of the book." Fran and Phillipa kept saying 'No.'...PJ: 'but I could have sworn.." "nope." PJ:"yeah, there was something in there..." "No!"

[Mrs. Maggott]

Another thing...I wouldn't take what PJ says about being 'close to the books' too seriously. I have watched the commentary on the EE, and read other statements he has made...and he does not really know the books too well at all. He thought for sure that Frodo and Aragorn had a scene together before Frodo departed the fellowship, in the book *lol* He said "Now this is a scene right out of the book." Fran and Phillipa kept saying 'No.'...PJ: 'but I could have sworn.." "nope." PJ:"yeah, there was something in there..." "No!" <quote - Leto>

You know, the above makes me actually feel better! If Mr. Jackson is running on what he thinks is in the books because he doesn't know the book as well as we have all been led to believe, then perhaps some of his "interpretations" (such as the Aragorn/Frodo scene) might stem more from ignorance than something less savory. It doesn't change the end result, but it definitely has made me less aggrieved at the Director since it appears that his main fault appears to be the same as that of Mr. Bakshi - biting off more than he can chew and then trying to work the mouthful down to a manageable amount. :rolleyes:

[Leto]

*lol* Mrs M...and perhaps there are parts that really ARE close to the books in there, which he doens't realize, because Phillipa Boyens and Fran Walsh wrote the screenplay, and they're the ones that know the books. It's as much a mystery to him as it is to us, before we see it...*lol* It sure doesn't change the end result, unfortunately...but there are hopefully hidden gems in there from the screenwriters to remind us that it is 'based' on Tolkien's book.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
....perhaps some of his "interpretations"....might stem more from ignorance than something less savoury.
I BEGAN by assuming they were as much due to sheer carelessness as anything else; it is only recently that there is some suggestion emerging that there is something more sinister behind them!

[Aldanil]

I think I'm with Joxy on that "sinister" tip; as an unrepentant purist and aboriginal NPW I much prefer to presume such "interpretations" the offspring of sloven and malice, bred up out of both haste and hubris; all the better to hate you with, as the old wolf says in the well-known folktale. That PJ & Company should plan and then pull off the quite impressive and coordinated performance of filming the entire trilogy (itself a false and artificial division of Tolkien's narrative required by the short-term commercial exigencies of British publishing in the early Fifties) in one fell swoop of fifteen months, and yet leave (or keep) the screenplay in a state of near-constant flux, the lines changing so often that the actors accumulated boxes and file-boxes full of latest updates, is truly to set the cart, nay the baggage train, before the horse.

The quality of the writing above all is what defines true greatness, in the movie theater (and on DVD) as on the printed page, and the original Tree of the Tale available to these adaptors (even without the blessing of wary Christopher, chary of his father's feelings and reputation) deserves -- and will in the fullness of time receive -- a truer "treatment" than the hash-cut hodgepodge hatchet-job which was hewn from its trunk and tender branches by the quick-fix commercial exigencies of New Zealand film-making in the late Nineties. That fine and foxy wise-minded farmwife Mrs. M puts it most aptly: "biting off more than he can chew and then trying to get the mouthful down" indeed!

And speaking of the horse, what happened to our Shadowfax, eh? Well? I'm askin'! How much precious screen-time was saved by not hearing Boromir sound his horn in the valley of Rivendell as the Fellowship departs? Was (and indeed is) not the Bridge of Khazad-dum sufficient, that PJ need create the Stairs? I'm askin'! All too much, and yet not enough, noumsane? How tone-deaf are them Kiwis to true suspense anyway? I'm askin'! Shouldn't Gimli's line rather be "And my other axe!", or did he really bring a spare to the Council of Elrond? Isn't it just something, that Frodo in taking up the burden of the Ring must say so not once but twice and three times before finally managing to make himself heard over the wrangling noise of Elf and Dwarf? Shows what top-notch screenwriters can do to come in and help punch up flat material or too-dry exposition, doncha' think? I'm askin'!!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Yea!

[Goro Shimura]

Bravo, Aldanil!!!