Goblin-kings

[Maeglin]

He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won and the game of golf invented at the same moment.

Okay I have 2 questions:
1. Why did these goblins have a king? In LotR the orc(goblins) always fight with each other and often kill each other, they never get along, and will certainly not take orders from anyone(not from another orc at least). So why did these particular orcs have a king? As far as I know orcs are not civilized creatures and don't seem like the type to have a government, even if it is a crude and simple monarchy.

2. What is Mount Gram? Where is it? And how come I have never seen it on any of the maps of Middle-Earth?

[Anamatar IV]

It might have been one of those loop holes that tolkien never really closed. You know, I forget who it was that whacked the head off and whos head that was. :confused:

[Mithlond]

Bandobras Took whacked Golfimbul's head off his shoulders and down the rabbit hole.

[Ithrynluin]

Due to the orcs beastly and aggressive nature,I'm guessing that whoever was "king" got there by cruelty and violence,exerting power and dominance over others;ruling as a tyrant.

Mount Gram, the Encyclopedia of Arda:
The mountain home of the goblins that followed Golfimbul. Its precise location is nowhere identified, but circumstantial evidence suggests that it lay among the peaks of the northern Misty Mountains.


I hope this is correct.:)

[YayGollum]

I'd agree with the ithrynluin person on how they become kings. And as far as I know, orcs are immortal. The king dudes might just be a lot older than the rest. I don't know.
I think the only reason that the orcs were always fighting with each other in LOTR was because there were so many different kinds from so many different places. The different kinds of orcs didn't really like having to work with each other or take orders from people outside their own group. Stuff like that. The orcs in The Hobbit worked together pretty well because they were all from one group. I don't know.
Also, why were you confused about the orc king thing anyways? There was the Great Goblin in The Hobbit. I always assumed that all orcs had some kind of organization like that. oh well. I'm just crazy. Orcs are just misunderstood. Poor guys. :rolleyes:

[Ariana Undomiel]

I think that there is a difference between goblins and orcs. Goblins were creatures who lived in the Misty Mountains and they were afraid of the sunlight. Orcs are a different breed of creatures and they infested the mines of Moria and they were the kind that found little in order or union. They hated their own kinds. Goblins in the hobbit were also less evil in the fact that they kept to themselves in the mountains and they were not as quick to slaughter as the orcs were. In the period of time between the Hobbit and LOTR the goblins and the orcs began to become restless so that there was less order and they were less afraid of roaming abroad. It is possible that by the time of LOTR the goblins no longer had kings, but obviously in the Hobbit they still did. It's just a theory though. :)

~Ariana

[Mithlond]

There is no difference between goblin's and orc's. Orc is just the hobbit word for goblin, they are one in the same.

[Maeglin]

Thank you Mithlond, I didn't want to say anything and start another debate because there have been so many about that before.

[Ariana Undomiel]

Oh, I see. I think that I must have been a wee bit confused. Although I could have sworn that the Goblins of the Misty mountains and the Orcs of Moria were really different. But hey I have been known to be wrong some times. ;)

~Ariana

[Wolfshead]

I'd agree with the idea that the 'King Goblin' was the most cruel and tyrannic Orc in that area. Much like in ancient barbarian tribes, the strongest ruled and the weaker served. There was no royal line or anything. That Orc would have called himself King because he wanted recognition as the toughest Orc there and it would have done his ego the world of good. Orcs always needed someone to lead, whether a superior Orc or someone like Sauron, else they're just a rabble who want to destroy. And there shouldn't be any problem with King's, after all, there was the Great Goblin.

[Maeglin]

So the Great Goblin is like a dictator then, okay got it. But here's another question, and it will throw the thread off topic, but too bad. There were so many orcs/gobins or whatever you want to call them, so why didn't they try to invade other lands?:confused:

[Wolfshead]

I would say, without bothering to go look it up, that they weren't quite that organised. Although, those Orcs did attack The Shire at one stage. And they did raid other lands for food and slaves (just east of The Misty Mountains). So they didn't really need to invade. But now I think of it, wasn't invasion one of the reasons for attacking Erebor other than the treasure?

[Mithlond]

Maybe there were happy with their current dwellings?
Also remember that they had to remain in places with little to no sunlight, and most of the other lands were guarded against them.

[Calimehtar]

CraigSmith But now I think of it, wasn't invasion one of the reasons for attacking Erebor other than the treasure?

It also says in The Hobbit something about one reason the goblins all came together was for their hatred had risen greatly for the dwarves because they killed the Goblin King or Great Goblin (cant remember which). So just thought I should say that attack was also for revenge.