The Silmarillion: Valaquenta

[Nóm]

Important Information on the Silmarillion discussions can be found here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6682)
This is said of Mandos:
...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.
Thoughts on the freedoms of Iluvatar? Is there a constant input of information to Mandos thorughout the entire existance of Arda as the events unfold and freedoms are lost by Iluvatar? Or was some point in time where all these freedoms where lost?

From the fountains of Irmo and Estë all those who dwell in Valinor draw refreshment; and often the Valar come themselves to Lórien and there find repose and easing of the burden of Arda.
Could it be that the Valar did not draw the same easing of burdens that the Eldar did simply by dwelling in Aman? Did it take extra to ease the more powerful Valar?


Of Nienna it says this:
So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began.
How did this lamentation manistfest it's self when the world came into being? Did this teach pity and endurance of hope, as did her singing to those who listend to it?
How might this effect the race of men?

Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it. It is said that in the making of Arda he endeavoured to draw Ossë to his allegiance, promising to him all the realm and power of Ulmo, if he would serve him. So it was that long ago there arose great tumults in the sea that wrought ruin to the lands. But Uinen, at the prayer of Aulë, restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful. For the most part; for the delight in violence has never wholly departed from him, and at times he will rage in his wilfulness without any command from Ulmo his lord.
He was pardoned, but how could it be that he could want to usurp Ulmo's realm and then end up being faithful? What stops Osse from trying to do this again?
Why did Ulmo pardon him?

Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion, But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
Anything in the First age that sounds like his work?

Now some Valar have spouses and some do not. Certain pairings such as Manwe and Varda, or Mandos and Vaire seem to be fitted well. I wonder, how did the Valar establish spouses? This might have been done during the music, with those who had extra closeness in the combination of their thoughts? Did a Vala love their spouse differently than they loved the other Valar, or was it more like a business partnership? Or maybe the answer to this is found in a book I have not read yet.

Why did Tulkas go into Arda later than the other Valar? Was there simply no work for him to do in the beginning?
Or was this to take Melkor by surprise? Maybe it was an after-thought?

What are your thoughts or questions about the Valaquenta?

[Lhunithiliel]

With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.
Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor
Yet, Varda "married" Manwe and despised the brother, who was equal in might!
I think the Valar did show preferrences, affection, love <> or <> hatred, envy, disgust etc.. to each other and their conduct is often guided by emotions rather than by reason.
But this is so typical about all gods in every folklore, isn't it!
Is it because WE create them and thus endow them with the same emotions as ours? I, at least, understand it like this.

There is however another interesting issue here: (look at the highlighted section in the quote):
From that quote, as well as from others, it becomes obvious that the Ainur, before becoming Valar had lived in the Halls of Eru (wherever these might have been in the Void). And it also seems that from that very early stage of their existance they had had quite particular and specific characters.

So, my question is:
How come that the Ainur loved thier particular "fields of activities" (Manwe - the air; Varda - the stars; Ulmo - the waters etc.) if there in the Void, where they had existed long before Ea had been made, there was nothing of the kind?!

The sub-question (although it goes a little back in the previous topic of the Simarillion Discussion):
How could they interpret in their respective musical themes these particular, specific, personal attitudes and characteristics, taking into consideration that they had : 1/NO knowledge of the fact that through their tunes they were creating a real materially existing thing; and 2/They had never before seen anything like air, water, flowers, trees etc. out there in the Void, where they used to dwell?

[Maedhros]

Thoughts on the freedoms of Iluvatar? Is there a constant input of information to Mandos thorughout the entire existance of Arda as the events unfold and freedoms are lost by Iluvatar? Or was some point in time where all these freedoms where lost?
My guess is that he had a greater overall knowledge of the History of the World thought the Music of the Ainur, more than any other. Yet, there are certain things that only Ilúvatar knows which are unknown even to Námo.
Could it be that the Valar did not draw the same easing of burdens that the Eldar did simply by dwelling in Aman? Did it take extra to ease the more powerful Valar?
The Valar being the "Guardians or Keepers" of Arda, had a greater responsability on the world than any other beings. Because their burdens are greater than any other beings, they needed their repose too, and because Valinor was free from the Marring of Melkor, their repose would be greater there, in the fairest place of the World (Gardens of Lórien.)
How did this lamentation manistfest it's self when the world came into being? Did this teach pity and endurance of hope, as did her singing to those who listend to it?
How might this effect the race of men?
Perhaps, it gave pity and hope to both Elves and Men. Perhaps she saw that hope and was needed to help the Children of Ilúvatar. (Ex. War of Wrath.)
He was pardoned, but how could it be that he could want to usurp Ulmo's realm and then end up being faithful? What stops Osse from trying to do this again?
Perhaps there is redepmtion in the world. I think that what stops Ossë from rebelling is the love he has for his spouse Uinen.
Anything in the First age that sounds like his work?
All I can see is him bringing thoughts and ideas to the elves, which exactly i don't know. But if you read the Two Towers, you will see that he was awed with the mind and hands of Fëanor.
Now some Valar have spouses and some do not. Certain pairings such as Manwe and Varda, or Mandos and Vaire seem to be fitted well. I wonder, how did the Valar establish spouses? This might have been done during the music, with those who had extra closeness in the combination of their thoughts? Did a Vala love their spouse differently than they loved the other Valar, or was it more like a business partnership? Or maybe the answer to this is found in a book I have not read yet.
I guess that a Vala would love more their spouse than other Valar. Their was an idea that certain maiar (Fionwë, etc) were the children of the Valar. Later it was discarded and Fionwë was named Eonwë and was made the Standard bearer of Manwë.
Why did Tulkas go into Arda later than the other Valar? Was there simply no work for him to do in the beginning?
This I have wondered often. I would venture to say that he was not very involved in the making of the world and he felt no need to go there. Only after the threat of Melkor was revealed he came. Interesting to note is that the High Ones (Arathar) of Arda he is not mentioned. The Aratar are: Manwë, Varda, Aulë, Yavanna, Ulmo, Mandos, Nienna and Oromë.

[Maedhros]

I just wanted for everyone to have an idea of where things were in Valinor.
This is a picture from the Atlas of Middle Earth:

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
And it also seems that from that very early stage of their existance they had had quite particular and specific characters.

So, my question is:
How come that the Ainur loved thier particular "fields of activities" (Manwe - the air; Varda - the stars; Ulmo - the waters etc.) if there in the Void, where they had existed long before Ea had been made, there was nothing of the kind?!

Lhun, I think you asked a question and answered it yourself already. Eru created the Ainur,they were the offspring of his thought...and I think that in the process of creation (whatever that might look like?) he already had in mind the properties,characteristics,and personalities with which he wanted to endow a particular spirit; even though none of these "things" (water,light,air,earth,sorrow,nature...) actually existed yet.
The Ainur are his children,and children bring warmth and happyness into a home. So Eru was not alone anymore,and when he was creating these spirits(=children in a sense),he wanted them to be diverse,different...to take pleasure in different concepts,ideas,crafts,etc. To have good and bad layers to their personality (bad doesn't mean evil!) and thus to complement each other,using their diversity and their different skills to attain perfection (in the making of the music, as well as in the making of Arda later).
Sorry I went back to Ainulindalë a bit.;)

Thoughts on the freedoms of Iluvatar? Is there a constant input of information to Mandos thorughout the entire existance of Arda as the events unfold and freedoms are lost by Iluvatar? Or was some point in time where all these freedoms where lost?

Just like Maedhros said,Namo did have greater insight into the future of Arda,but he was far from knowing everything.Only Ilúvatar knows all, and he probably supplies Mandos with new information now and then.


How did this lamentation manistfest it's self when the world came into being? Did this teach pity and endurance of hope, as did her singing to those who listend to it?
How might this effect the race of men?
The "spirit" of Nienna was probably present throughout Arda and the Children felt that, and (un)willingly or (un)intentionally followed her counsel to cast away despair and learn to be patient.

He was pardoned, but how could it be that he could want to usurp Ulmo's realm and then end up being faithful? What stops Osse from trying to do this again?
Why did Ulmo pardon him?


It doesn't say that he wanted to usurp Ulmo's realm,this was offered to him by Melkor.Ossë was obviously very passionate about his love for the seas - maybe he desired more freedom and greater power to fulfill his desires or plans and Melkor,the greatest Vala,came along and promised to give him all this, if only he joined his cause. Ossë probably didn't think about this decision too deeply because he was blinded by his love for the sea and he thought that Melkor could provide him with more power, as he was greater than Ulmo. But Ossë had another big passion and love - Uinen,who persuaded him to remain faithful.

Why did Tulkas go into Arda later than the other Valar? Was there simply no work for him to do in the beginning?

Maybe some Ainur just didn't feel the need to get involved in Arda or their skills were irrelevant to the shaping of the World. Tulkas would have been pretty useless when there was no enemy in Arda. As soon as Melkor started to mar the works and labours of the Valar,Tulkas' mission was clear - he belonged in Arda and not in the Timeless Halls. His mission was to "physically" oppose and oust Melkor IMO.

MY QUESTION : Every Vala had his/her special affiliation with something. What was Melkor's affiliation exactly? It is said:
Great might was given to him by Ilúvatar, and he was coeval with Manwë. In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny.
Could his affiliation simply be called "darkness" or "evil" meaning that each of the skills he had (water,air,earth...) he approached from a new angle,a different viewpoint and philosophy...?

[gate7ole]

Thoughts on the freedoms of Iluvatar? Is there a constant input of information to Mandos throughout the entire existence of Arda as the events unfold and freedoms are lost by Iluvatar? Or was some point in time where all these freedoms where lost?
This can be associated with the interrupted vision of Arda, already discussed in Ainulindale. Was Mandos also restricted in knowing events of only a portion of the future? Of course I can’t answer it, but if it is true, then the Valar will lose an essential foresight of Arda. They may not be able to aid Men directly (e.g. like sending the Istari), and that will mean that Men must have to deal with the problems alone.

Could it be that the Valar did not draw the same easing of burdens that the Eldar did simply by dwelling in Aman? Did it take extra to ease the more powerful Valar?
With this I have to agree with Maedhros. The elves were contempt with dealing with their own personal problems and Aman sufficed to ease their burdens, but the Valar had to deal with the whole Arda and Morgoth, which might need a fairer place.

Why did Ulmo pardon him?
It is the same with why Manwe pardoned Melkor. The Valar (except Morgoth) were by nature good. Especially Ulmo was the only Vala that forgave the Noldor from the beginning and aided them when all others (even Aule) had denied any help. It is possible that Ulmo saw true regret from Osse’s part and accepted him back.

Anything in the First age that sounds like his work?
I think that it doesn’t mean that Olorin was walking among the elves during the 1st Age at Middle-Earth, but rather during the Years of the Trees at Valinor. I’m pretty sure that no Vala or Maia (except Ulmo) visited ME after the Hiding of Valinor until the War of Wrath.

Why did Tulkas go into Arda later than the other Valar?
I don’t think that Tulkas’ delayed arrival was planned. Besides, the Valar didn’t know that Morgoth would rebel against them. Tulkas being warlike, probably didn’t participate much in the Music of Ainur and wasn’t attracted by Arda. But when later he heard of a war going on among the Valar, he found it interesting.

How come that the Ainur loved their particular "fields of activities" (Manwe - the air; Varda - the stars; Ulmo - the waters etc.) if there in the Void, where they had existed long before Ea had been made, there was nothing of the kind?!
Mmm, their particular “fields of activities” lived in their hearts. They were given these interests at the time of their birth through Iluvatar’s thoughts. It is THEY who put their interests in the Music of the Ainur and shaped it. It is only that they didn’t realize it until they viewed the vision and saw the things that they had imagined, being created.

About the subject of the mating of the Valar, we can try to explain it in a mannish way. The distinction between male and female Valar cannot of course be based on their physical characteristics (since they didn’t have one distinct appearance), but rather on their spiritual characteristics. But why should a Vala be attracted by another, it seems to me the same as human attraction. Because both being products of Iluvatar’s thought, they may produce the same relationships among them. Some they regard as friends (Ulmo with Manwe), others as lovers.
But I’m glad that Tolkien rejected the idea of children of the Valar, since there would be an inconsistence: would these children be considered spirits coming from outside of Arda, since they were conceived by such spirits, or would they become a new order of spirits created in Arda?

[Nóm]

I don’t think that Tulkas’ delayed arrival was planned. Besides, the Valar didn’t know that Morgoth would rebel against them. Tulkas being warlike, probably didn’t participate much in the Music of Ainur and wasn’t attracted by Arda.
How did Orome differ?

[Eöl]

How did this lamentation manifest itself when the world came into being?
Hmm...interesting question. Possibly, since it does not mention this with the other Ainur, could Nienna actually have created the emotion of mourning/sadness?

Why did Tulkas go into Arda later than the other Valar?
I suppose I would agree with gate7ole on this one. The Valar were supremely intelligent, but probably could not comprehend the idea of war in the world, without any strife to deal with. Although, they may have noticed the conflict between Iluvatar and Melkor and been on their guard.

Thoughts on the freedoms of Iluvatar? Is there a constant input of information to Mandos thorughout the entire existance of Arda as the events unfold and freedoms are lost by Iluvatar? Or was some point in time where all these freedoms where lost?

He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgments only at the bidding of Manwe.

Could it be that there is a link between Manwe and Mandos that is not discussed in the Valaquenta? Wouldn't it be that the only point in time where all the freedoms were lost was at the End Of Days, when there are no more events to unfold and Iluvatars plan is finally completed to it's fullest?
Did it take extra to ease the more powerful Valar?

Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come.

This section also mentions that Aule was tired as well, but it does not say if he slept. Could this mean that Tulkas is less of a god, and closer to the race of Elves than any of the Valar, possibly because he came to Arda last of the Valar? Was he created last and thus given less power than the others? This may be a relation to Hercules of Greek mythology, who is half-mortal and half-god. He had super human strength but still could grow tired as a normal human could.

[Lhunithiliel]

Here is another good map of Valinor:
Valinor map2 (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=178967)

[Nóm]

Is it because WE create them and thus endow them with the same emotions as ours? I, at least, understand it like this.

I don't think that someone could create a charactor with an emotion that humans do not have because I do not think we can imagine what an emotion would be like unless we have it. I say that we can create charactors that lack certain emotions that we have though.

Lhunithiliel asks this too:
So, my question is:
How come that the Ainur loved thier particular "fields of activities" (Manwe - the air; Varda - the stars; Ulmo - the waters etc.) if there in the Void, where they had existed long before Ea had been made, there was nothing of the kind?!

I like ithrynluin's and gate7ole's answers but I would like to add somethings.
I think that the things that came to be in the world, such as water,earth, trees...where just physical manifestations of the essenses of the Ainur.
I think the foundation of the essense of each Vala was that part of Iluvatar's mind from which they came. Then the Valar where further shaped as they grew to know eachother.
It was Iluvatar who made material things, so I think that the phsycial world was his interpretation of/actual creation of the Valar's music and not their interpretations of it, as they did not know the senses needed to perceive material. In other words I do not think Ulmo, for exampple, knew water as we know it, but rather his music was the esssense of water.
So while there was not water in the void, there was Ulmo's part in the music, which was in my belief the expression of his essense. This manifested as water, so Ulmo took to water.
Also, the fact that the Ainur loved the children because they were something different, is to me, an indication that they were curious and loved to discover new things, so in the begining they would have been eager to share their thoughts with eachother. This is why the things repressented by each Vala work so well together. Manwe and Ulmo (wind and water) worked often together, for example.
But...
Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly. Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain.
If the Ainur did not know sight during the music, yet Ulmo can say that the falling of rain was not in his music; that might mean that upon seeing the vision, all the ainur undertood suddenly exactly which part of the music each and every little thing came from.

Was Mandos also restricted in knowing events of only a portion of the future?
I think that all we can know is what it said about him knowing everything that is not in the freedom of Iluvatar. I take this to mean that as long as the world lasts, Namo (Mandos) will always be learning more things, as events unfold and Iluvatar has freedoms lost.
could Nienna actually have created the emotion of mourning/sadness?
Celebrien...I've asked myself that. My answer: I doubt it. It is said that only Melkor of the Valar knew fear, but the other Valar did know other emotions such as greif and gladness. Because the Valar, and it seems that the Ainur in general did have feelings, I reason that this is something she could not have created, as it already existed.
Also, for her to have done so, it seems she would have had to have played a part in the creation of the children, and she did not have a part in that.
This is what is said word for word about the children...
... and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.
Since sadness was a part of the children it might seem that she could not have created an emotion which was part of their nature.
On the other hand, we know that elves where made of the earth and this the Ainur did have a part in making.

As for Tulkas, I'm of the belief that he was introduced later on to take Melkor by surprise. I wonder why no one else thought this, perhaps I over look something. There is this though...
But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a might wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar... That is the first page of the next chapter:Of The Beginning of days.

[Eöl]

Good point about Nienna...About Tulkas, he was one of the Ainur in the beginning correct? So didn't Iluvatar say that you could go to Arda or you could stay and that would be your fate? So if he didn't go at the beginning which I don't think it specifically said he did how did he get there? Was it a special exception by Iluvatar to allow him to enter Arda later than the others because Iluvatar realized the Valar needed help with the war on Melkor?

[gate7ole]

As for Tulkas, I'm of the belief that he was introduced later on to take Melkor by surprise.

How did Orome differ?

First there is a distinct difference between Orome and Tulkas. Orome was not a "god" of war, though he had great strength. He loved hunting, riding, even the trees. Those might have attracted him to enter Arda, back then at Halls of Eru. But Tulkas showed no interest in them. He liked only wrestling and battles. Seeing that there wouldn't be any such things in Arda, he decided not to enter.
As for your idea that Tulkas' delayed arrival was planned to surprise Morgoth, I think it can't be correct because the Valar had not idea that there was going to be war in Arda. It's true they were discouraged by Melkor's discord but not at the point to think of any battle. Your proposing plan of surprise implies that they knew Melkor's imminent rebellion. Then why did they leave him destroy their works? Why didn't they take Tulkas with them from the beginning, but called him to surprise Melkor after he had already caused serious damage? It doesn't make sense.
Also, about the way that Tulkas entered Arda, I agree it is puzzling, since the Walls that surrounded Arda and confined it from the Void were unpenetratable and the Valar only managed to create a door to exile Morgoth after the War of Wrath. I guess it was a direct intervention from Iluvatar.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by gate7ole
As for your idea that Tulkas' delayed arrival was planned to surprise Morgoth, I think it can't be correct because the Valar had not idea that there was going to be war in Arda. It's true they were discouraged by Melkor's discord but not at the point to think of any battle. Your proposing plan of surprise implies that they knew Melkor's imminent rebellion. Then why did they leave him destroy their works? Why didn't they take Tulkas with them from the beginning, but called him to surprise Melkor after he had already caused serious damage? It doesn't make sense.

Well I have thought some pretty foolish things before so I will not blame you for thinking that I thought that the Valar though of this plan. I was figuring with the idea that this was the doing on Iluvatar and not the Valar.

PS: what did Orome think he would be hunting? Did he know they would be evil creautres from Melkor?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Well I have thought some pretty foolish things before so I will not blame you for thinking that I thought that the Valar though of this plan. I was figuring with the idea that this was the doing on Iluvatar and not the Valar.

PS: what did Orome think he would be hunting? Did he know they would be evil creautres from Melkor?

So, you say it was Iluvatar's plan? It may be so, no one can understand fully the will of the Creator, but still I find a little problem (I'm irritating I know). How did he "convince" Tulkas to enter Arda? I mean did Tulkas by himself decide to do so, but it was actually Iluvatar's plan unfolding through him? If yes, then it is the same thing which I say, that Tulkas became attracted by Arda afterwards. Finding the direct interventions of Iluvatar is tricky, since everything eventually derives from his plan.

[Lhunithiliel]

If you look up and read once again the quote I provided, especially the highlighted part, you can certainly read this:
...for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music
This line has become of great interest to me because it practically says that the Ainur had had life, activity and certain relations before they entered Ea and before becoming Valar. This makes me suppose that just as Melkor and Varda knew each other, just as Varda disliked Melkor, it is equally possible that Tulkas and Melkor were enemies too......And applying the what if-principles one could easily assume that when Melkor descended into Ea, Tulkas did not have any particular reason to follow him, for practically his enemy had left the former "field " of their rivalry - the halls of Eru. But when he had understood that Melkor was againg behaving as a "bad boy" (;) in the new-born world, destroying the beauty of the marvellous creation, he rushed to oppose him. Which to me explains his later arrival.
........
Yet, I am still wondering, what the Ainur were before becoming the Valar of Ea? What did the Halls of Eru, where they had lived, look like? If they were spirits, how come that Varda had the particular [i]beauty[/b] that attracted Melkor? What was the reason for the hatred between Melkor and Tulkas?.... Questions, that perhaps need the writing of a new mythology ;)

[Nóm]

Absoluetly Lhunithliel. :) I think they knew eachother...I base that mostly on this:
But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.


As for Melkor's attraction to Varda I belive it was her light. Melkor greatly desired light.

He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness.
of Varda:
. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy.

As for what the halls looked like, I believe that they looked like nothing, and that there were not material.
Notice that:
Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his lift hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty.
Percieved that he smiled.
As for the lifting of his hand, I ment to bring this up in the Ainulindale but never got around to it. At one point he lifted his right hand,and at another point lifted his left. I do not think he had a hand as we know it, but rather this is metaphorical.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
MY QUESTION : Every Vala had his/her special affiliation with something. What was Melkor's affiliation exactly?
Melkor had great similar abilities with Aule. This means he was a great craftsman, too. We remember that he was always destroying Aule's contructions at the beginning of Time. Thus he could raise mountains, or even creat life in the same way that Aule did with the dwarves. Also, he helped with his counsels the Noldor with the contruction of gems. We are told that he could not control the air or the water in a great extent.
All these prove one thing. Melkor did not excel just in something. He was good in many fields. Maybe this is the characteristic that caused his rebellion. It is very curious that despite having the greatest abilities of all the others, he sought to conquer their services rather than gain them like Manwwe did.
But if we have to limit Melkor's special affiliation in one field, I would finally say corruption of the other's works.

[Aiwendil2]

I was away from the internet for a few days, so unfortunately I missed the beginning of this discussion; but I'll chime in now.

Yet, I am still wondering, what the Ainur were before becoming the Valar of Ea? What did the Halls of Eru, where they had lived, look like? If they were spirits, how come that Varda had the particular beauty that attracted Melkor?

This is an interesting question. Note that when the Valar are shown the vision of Ea in Ainulindale, it is said: "And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing". For long I had, giving this little thought, interpreted as suggesting that vision and sight had not existed before, that in effect Iluvatar was inventing a new sense. I am now convinced that this is incorrect, and that the statement applies only to their Music - i.e., before they had only heard their music, now they are seeing it. My main consideration here was the fact that Iluvatar is described in very visual terms during the Music - he raises first his right hand, then his left, then both; his face is first smiling, then stern, then terrible to behold. I think the fact that Melkor was attracted to Varda's beauty is also evidence in favor of this view.

At one point he lifted his right hand,and at another point lifted his left. I do not think he had a hand as we know it, but rather this is metaphorical.

I disagree. Essentially what you are saying is that the Ainulindale is myth, and can't be taken literally. Yet all of the Silmarillion is myth. In a sense, none of it can be taken literally; it is fiction. Within the context of the myth, I don't see any reason to assume that any one story is less "real" than the others. I don't see the reality of Tolkien's mythology as being any different from that of other mythologies. In no other mythology is there an intra-mythological distinction between metaphorical sections and purportedly true sections. Thus, we either look at Greek myth as a whole from a metaphorical/analytical viewpoint, or we look at it as an internally true story. We don't say, for example, that the creation myth is metaphorical but the story of Hercules is purportedly true. I don't think Tolkien's mythology is any different. As long as you're suspending disbelief and pretending that this is a true story, you must treat the Ainulindale as being "true".

MY QUESTION : Every Vala had his/her special affiliation with something. What was Melkor's affiliation exactly?

I think that gate7ole makes some good points in response to this question. Nonetheless, I think there's something to be said for the interesting view that Melkor's affiliation is with fire. His strongholds, Utumno and Angband, are both described as hot places and it is suggested that there are subterranean furnaces of some kind. His coming forth to battle is frequently preceeded by fiery eruptions of Thangorodrim - most notably in the Battle of Sudden Flame. Finally, the Balrogs are spirits of fire and are quite likely among his original Maiar. This of course sets up the interesting tetralogy : Manwe - air; Ulmo - water; Aule - earth; Melkor - fire. Note that Melkor hates most of all the sea, for it is the one thing he cannot subdue; water is traditionally thought of as being in opposition to fire. Also, among the Valar, Aule is certainly the closest in spirit to Melkor; cf. volcanic furnaces deep within the earth, such as those in Thangorodrim.

There are problems with this, however, primarily this: when Iluvatar shows Manwe and Ulmo how Melkor's rebellion has ultimately led to greater good, one the examples he gives is the snowflake. If this is indeed Melkor's "corruption" of water, it is one achieved through cold, not heat.

[Maedhros]

There are problems with this, however, primarily this: when Iluvatar shows Manwe and Ulmo how Melkor's rebellion has ultimately led to greater good, one the examples he gives is the snowflake. If this is indeed Melkor's "corruption" of water, it is one achieved through cold, not heat.
I don't think that that is a problem Aiwendil. If you look at the Ainulindalë:
And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.
In an odd way, he seemed to control both fire and cold. I wonder how.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Aiwendil2
Note that when the Valar are shown the vision of Ea in Ainulindale, it is said: "And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing". For long I had, giving this little thought, interpreted as suggesting that vision and sight had not existed before, that in effect Iluvatar was inventing a new sense. I am now convinced that this is incorrect, and that the statement applies only to their Music - i.e., before they had only heard their music, now they are seeing it.
That could be.
But:
By Aiwendil2
My main consideration here was the fact that Iluvatar is described in very visual terms during the Music - he raises first his right hand, then his left, then both; his face is first smiling, then stern, then terrible to behold. I think the fact that Melkor was attracted to Varda's beauty is also evidence in favor of this view.
This is where I take into consideration this:
From Ainulindale
Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of the knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and thy need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female...
Now this probably doesn't pove that the Ainur where always without shape before coming into the world, but even if it does, it still does not prove that Eru was without shape, nor the halls.

By Aiwendil2
I disagree. Essentially what you are saying is that the Ainulindale is myth, and can't be taken literally.
No, what I mean to say is that the hand of Iluvatar could be a metaphor, and would be IF he were immaterial.

By Aiwendil2
As long as you're suspending disbelief and pretending that this is a true story, you must treat the Ainulindale as being "true".
Absolutely.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, and I am going to be a late straggler into the conversation as well. ;)

First of all, to start with the topic being dicussed, I do not believe that the sense of sight was created only after the vision of Illuvatar was fulfilled. Yes, the Valar did not have physical forms, but does this mean that they could not see? I would say that they were, in their original forms, more on a spiritual level then physical level. They could see each other and the spiritual sides of life, but the Elves and mortals of ME could not see them as they did not have the gift of being able to see in the spiritual realm. Thus, Illuvatar could be considered to be in form spiritual but not physical, as could the halls of Eru.
Perhaps, it gave pity and hope to both Elves and Men. Perhaps she saw that hope and was needed to help the Children of Ilúvatar. (Ex. War of Wrath.)
I want to add my thoughts and interpretations on this: I have never thought of the mourning of Nienna as actually adding a never-before-seen sense into existence, or into ME for that matter. I have simply thought of her mourning during the music to be an echo of the mourning of the Children of Illuvatar and the Valar caused by the destruction and hate of Melkor. I have always pictured her to be the one who sang that part of the suffering of the Children of Iluvatar and the Valar.
So didn't Iluvatar say that you could go to Arda or you could stay and that would be your fate? So if he didn't go at the beginning which I don't think it specifically said he did how did he get there? Was it a special exception by Iluvatar to allow him to enter Arda later than the others because Iluvatar realized the Valar needed help with the war on Melkor?
Actually, it was only on the Valar who entered ME that Iluvatar placed any sort of restriction. The Ainur outside of Iluvatar were not bound to the Void - they could enter Ea if they wished.
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

[Lhunithiliel]

Silmarillion - Valaquenta
With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. ....... Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë
Where from? What do you think? And doesn't it hint that at entering Ea, the Ainur did this NOT in a group... Where, do you think, Varda had been before joining Manwe? :confused:
...for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.
How do you understand this? Jelousy? ;)
When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth.
How do you understand these relations? It seems Varda and Manwe as if complement each other's powers.

[Nóm]

I've always just figured that Manwe sees more because of Varda's light, though I could be wrong.
Also that she hears more because of the Manwe's lordship over the wind from which tidings are brought.


I think Melkor probably ended up hating her because he couldn't have her, but I think he feared her because of her light once he became so dark.

[gate7ole]

In the Lost Road and in Morgoth’s Ring we read:
The chieftains of the Valar were nine. These were the names of the Nine Gods in the elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor; Manwe, Melkor, Ulmo, Aule, Mandos, Lorien, Tulkas, Osse, Orome.
Now, the different from the published Silmarillion (except the removal of Melkor) is that Osse is absent. In fact he has become a Maia.
I find very interesting the degradation of Osse. I can find 4 reasons, why Tolkien might decide to do so:
a) every Vala had his/her distinct filed of expertise. Having two Valar being related to the water might not be coherent.
b) Osse during the early Ages almost rebelled against the Valar, hearing the counsels of Melkor. It might not suite for a Vala to be susceptible to Melkor’s foul advices. All Ainur that finally followed the Dark Lord were lesser spirits (Maiar).
c) all “marriages” are between two Valar. Uinen was not a Vala and her “marriage” with Osse conflicted with it, which might be unwanted.
d) finally, Tolkien may have wanted the same number of male and female Valar, so he had to reduce the numbers of males to seven, thus rejecting Osse for all the previous reasons.

[Aiwendil2]

I don't think that that is a problem Aiwendil. If you look at the Ainulindalë:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In an odd way, he seemed to control both fire and cold. I wonder how.

Agreed. I did not mean "problem" in the sense of an inconsistency or mistake in the text; I only meant that the fact taht he controls both fire and cold is a problem in the interpretation of Melkor as primarily a fire-deity.

No, what I mean to say is that the hand of Iluvatar could be a metaphor, and would be IF he were immaterial.

I don't see a convincing argument for Iluvatar (or the Ainur) being immaterial. I agree with you that "Iluvatar's hand" must be metaphorical if it is a metaphor. I suppose the one real piece of evidence for that view is that which you quoted:

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue;

I'm not sure how to deal with this. So maybe there is a good case for immaterialism.

I find very interesting the degradation of Osse.

I also find this interesting. I think the reasons you provide are all good ones. I'd add, though, that the degradation of Osse seems to be tied to the evolution of the Legendarium from a primitive, pagan-style mythology to a more coherent, well thought-out, superposition of Christian and pagan myth. Osse is not the only Vala to be demoted. There are, if I recall correctly, two war-gods in BoLT (one named Measse, perhaps?) who were later dropped entirely. It is as if the Ainur, in the process of being transformed from Gods to angels, underwent a streamlining process of sorts.

[Maedhros]

There are, if I recall correctly, two war-gods in BoLT (one named Measse, perhaps?) who were later dropped entirely. It is as if the Ainur, in the process of being transformed from Gods to angels, underwent a streamlining process of sorts.
Of course, Aiwendil is correct. I believe they were called: Makar and Meássë. While reading The Theft of Melko, you noticed the fact that Makar was the one among those who lived in Valinor that talked in favor of Melko.

[Eöl]

How do you understand these relations? It seems Varda and Manwe as if complement each other's powers.

I don't understand this either, and also only Manwe and Melkor are thought brethren in the eyes of Iluvatar...However I think this may be to prove the point of near-equality of evil and good. Obviously if they are brothers they share some of the same traits. Could Osse and Ulmo be another pairing but not in the same sense because instead of a spouse Ulmo has Osse to aid him and his mistress Uinen. Another interesting thing is that Osse and Uinen are the only of the few Valar listed that are spouses, and they compliment each other, as do Varda and Manwe.

His spouse is Uinen, The Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all water under the sky...For she can lay calm upon the waves restraining the wildness of Osse.

My theory is that only Valar or Maiar which need additional help (or restraint in Osse's case) are given spouses with additional power for them. Manwe is the appointed ruler of the Valar and he oversees the events in Arda, thus extra sight is granted to him by Varda. Osse has in the past almost joined with Melkor so extra caution is needed on his part.

Any thoughts?

[Nóm]

I think they are mated based on function, but that they do love eachother though it is because of some connection they share in fuction.
I am PROBABLY WRONG though.

[Lhunithiliel]

While reading through HoME, V.III., "THE COMING OF THE VALAR
AND THE BUILDING OF VALINOR", I came accros a few VERY INTERESTING issues:
1/ Those twain (Manwe and Varda) gathered now wings of power to themselves and fared swiftly through the three airs. Vaitya is that which is wrapped dark and sluggish about the world and without it, but Ilwe is blue and clear and flows among the stars, and last came they to Vilna that is grey and therein may the birds fly safely.

....Yet even when all these had crossed the confines of the world and Vilna was in uproar with their passing
So, there comes a question: What could have been the material shape /form of the Ainur at descending into Arda. Becuase only huge material pieces can cause the effect described. AND, isn't there a slight difference in the understanding of the original form of the Ainur? Once they are described as SPIRITS and here we have a hint that in fact they might have had SOLID MATERIAL BODIES.
:confused: What do you think of that?

2/In the same chapter of HoME one can find a lot and a detailed description of the "High" Ainur and their hosts of lesser beings (called spirits) that accompanied them. I was tempted to quote large extracts from the text but then decided to provide it more in a scheme-like manner. So there it goes IN THE ORDER OF THEIR DESCENDING :

==> MELKOR - alone
==> MANWE <> VARDA + "Manir and the Suruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds."
==> ULMO - alone
==> AULE + his wife Yavanna PALURIEN + a great host of "the sprites of trees
and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve."
==>FALMAN-OSSE + Onen his consort + "the troops of the Oarni and Falmarini and the long-tressed Wingildi, and these are the spirits of the foam and the surf of ocean."
Important about Osse:
Osse was a vassal and subordinate to Ulmo, and was so for fear and reverence and not for love.
==> TULKAS POLDOREA
==> LORIEN and MANDOS (brothers) + their TARI - "they are ladies of great worship, queens of the Valar." >> NIENNA - spose of Mandos !!!!
Many other names has she that are spoken seldom and all are grievous, for she is Nuri who sighs and Heskil who breedeth winter, and all must bow before her as Qalme-Tari the mistress of death.
==> OROME- the Hunter + his spouse VANA- Tuilere or as the Valar said Vana Tuivana who bringeth spring, and all sing her praises as Tari-Laisi mistress of life

The new (in comparison with the Silmarillion, Valaquenta):
==> MAKAR + his "fierce sister MEASSE

As for the following I could NOT understand WHO exactly this Ainur was:
Last of all came Omar who is called Amillo, youngest of
the great Valar, and he sang songs as he came.
First of all HE was the last, not Tulkas and second... Who is he? :confused:

[Nóm]

Vilna was in uproar with their passing
This also caused me to question if they were material. I ended up deciding that this doesn't prove that they were, but is the best indication I know of that they might have been. Now, as for their forms, I couldn't even know where to begin to imagine what they might have been.

As for your other question I can not answer, because I've only read the first couple pages of The Coming of the Valar and Building of Valinor. It differs so much from what we have in The Silmarillion that I wasn't ready to deal with it yet! :o

I see the each Vala as being a part of the whole that is the Valar. They really do work together as one. Though they are many beings, and take on individual shapes, I truely view them as a system that is ultimately one. Even Melkor, who I see as the dark side to the Valar, had a part to play, and him being cast from the order of Valar I think is something like a human denying the any dark parts of themself to have any say in things. While we can not destroy the dark side of our nature we can choose to hide it away, not let it have any say.
But that this darkness does exist and has played it's part in things, it does effect the parts that aren't dedicated to "evil".
And In my opinion such darkness exists as a result of the rest of the system.
I just compare the system of the Valar with a human to explain my thoughts better.

[Lhunithiliel]

Nice contemplations Nym ;) :rolleyes:

I trully wish someone would comment and/or provide some information and/or opinion on the questions/"mini-topics" I put forward in my last TWO posts :rolleyes:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, I can't really comment on the last part as I haven't read HOME. I was listening, though. :)

I will say, however, that I believe the Valar descended into Ea in a spirit form.

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. The Sil.

The "spirit" form is their natural form - how Iluvatar made them. However, they are able to take physical form whenever they wish or are able to abandon that form and walk "unclad".

[Aiwendil2]

Regarding you second point, Lhunithiliel, I think that it must always be borne in mind that the "Book of Lost Tales" is in many ways, both superficially and profoundly, irreconcilable with the published/canon/late Silmarillion. One way in which it differed greatly was that the Valar were depicted in much more primitive and "pagan" terms. This explains, I think, the existence of several ill-defined, minor Valar such as Makar, Measse, and Omar. Omar appears to be strongly associated with song; he is often described as singing. One might conjecture that Tolkien dropped him as he infringed somewhat upon Ulmo's and Osse's song/sea associations.

I also don't think that the phrase "Vilna was in uproar with their passing" can be expected to make sense physically or metaphysically in terms of the later version. The physical/metaphysical/theological system of the Lost Tales is much less well worked out than it became in the 1950s (much in the way that pagan mythologies tend to have poorly worked out and often self-contradictory theologies, whereas modern religions such as Christianity and Judaism have very consistent and sophisticated ones). In short, I don't think that that phrase from the Lost Tales implies that the Valar must have had massive physical bodies. Of course, the Valar could incarnate themselves and disincarnate themselves freely (except for post-Darkening of Valinor Morgoth).

[Eöl]

Of Omar:

The ancient door-ward, Speaking to Eriol

...I felt as Omar the Vala who knows all tongues...

From the Commentary: The Music Of The Ainur

Omar the Vala 'who knows all tongues' did not survive the Lost Tales; a little more is heard of him subsequently, but he is a divinity without much substance.

The Coming Of The Valar...

There sang Amillo joyously to his playing (referring to Salmar) Amillo who is named Omar, whos voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches...

According to the commentary on The Coming Of The Valar, Omar is actually Salmar's brother. He apparently is the god of music maybe, or languages. Anyway, he disappeared after Lost Tales.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you very much Celebrien and Aiwendil2 for the information that you were so kind to provide!

Concerning Omar - the Vala who knows all tongues, I find it quite an interesting character and it's a pity that the Professor has abandoned the idea of developing him more.
I wonder, however, could it be that he abandoned Omar because if he existed in the final version (the Silm.) it probably would have been necessary to "create" races with different tounges right from the beginning..... Otherwise, what "job" would Omar have had? ;) And in fact, at that time there were only the Valar! Perhaps Omar should have been the one who invented the Common language :rolleyes: .....
Really, is anywhere explained how the Common language in ME appeared?
Sorry! This last question was not too much Valaquenta-related! :o

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, from the Sil. in the Flight of the Noldor we have:
At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will, and oaths were sworn of league and friendship; and it is told that at this feast the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor.
So I would say that the language spoken most often in Middle-earth during this age was that of the Grey-elves. Thus the Men of the three houses of the Edain who came into Beleriand probably spoke this same language with a mix of their own. After Morgoth's defeat, the Men who went over to Numenor were probably influenced by both the High-elven speach and the Grey-elven speach, as well as the tongues of Men on the coasts of ME. After the fall of Numenor, I can only guess that the language was now enriched by both the remaining Elves on ME as well as the many Men who lived there.

[Aiwendil2]

The tongue of Numenor was Adunaic, which seems to have been influenced by the Eldarin languages, native Edainic languages, and even Dwarven (perhaps through the Edainic tongues). Westron (the Common Speech) was derived mainly from Adunaic after the fall of Numenor.

[Lhunithiliel]

Meaning that BEFORE the fall of Numenor there was not a Common langugae in ME?

[Aiwendil2]

That is correct, as far as I know. Of course, among the Eldar and Edain of Beleriand in the First Age, Sindarin was essentially a common tongue. Its use continued among the Elves that remained in Middle-earth, but the non-Edainic peoples had their own languages.

[Maedhros]

I think that it must always be borne in mind that the "Book of Lost Tales" is in many ways, both superficially and profoundly, irreconcilable with the published/canon/late Silmarillion. One way in which it differed greatly was that the Valar were depicted in much more primitive and "pagan" terms. This explains, I think, the existence of several ill-defined, minor Valar such as Makar, Meássë, and Omar.
Just to point some things out about Makar and her sister Meásse. From the Appendix of Bolt 1:
Makar Given in QL ('God of battle') under root MAKA, with mak- 'slay', makil 'sword'. His Gnomish name is Magron or Magorn, with related words mactha- 'slay', macha 'slaughter, battle', magli 'a great sword'. See Meássë.
Meássë A late hasty entry in QL adds Meássë 'sister of Makar, Amazon with bloody arms' to the root MEHE 'ooze? ', whence mear 'gore'. In GL she is Mechos and Mechothli (mechor 'gore'), and is also called Magrintha 'the red-handed' (magru = macha 'slaughter, battle', magrusaig 'bloodthirsty'). In the Valar name-list she is called Rávë or Ravenni
It would seem out of context to have two Valar who are War gods. Looking at their word origins, they look kind of bloodthristy, and very unlike Christian - Judeo tradition.

[Melian]

Do you think the Professor considered the Christian-Judeo tradition when he developed these images?

[Maedhros]

From the Letters of JRRT: 320
I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel. .... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary
In the case of Galadriel, it would seem so.