Judging of the Dagor Bragollach Debate

[Maedhros]

The judges of the debate will be:
Ancalagon, Gothmog, Turgon and Elen Carnë.
The judges will be required to post their votes and to supply their reasons them. Remember, it is possible to vote a draw.

[Húrin Thalion]

Ok I have come to a conclusion after reading the debate several times. Firstly I would like to say that you both debated very well and did well!
My opinion is that it was a draw. This is because Nóm (Confusticated) had a harder point to prove and considering this both debated just as good as the other one.

Nóm's best argument was:

"Maybe because they do not deal directly with the Valar. They had much protection from the Noldor. The source of men's protection isn't relevant when considering the way they were treated on the whole. If this protection comes in the form of Valar, or Noldor it is protection none the less. "

This I did not see Nenya answer to, correct me if I'm wrong.

Nenya's best argument was:

"The Elves lived in ME without protection only during the time that the Valar were not aware of their existence. Once the Valar found the Elves, they did as much as they possibly could to ensure their safety. Orome told the Valar of their existence and then went to reside with them, and the Valar took direct action to defeat Melkor. Then the elves were invited to Aman because the Valar feared for them in a world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk."

This argument is very good and Nóm could not prove it wrong but I do not think that anyone in the guild could do that in a satisfying way.

Elen

[Gothmog]

I would like to congratulate Confusticated and Nenya Evenstar for the work they put into this debate. Both brought up good arguments for their side.

Nenya used many quotes from the Silmarillion to show that the Elves were treated better than were Men by the Valar and argued this consistently throughout the debate with good comments of her own to point out where she felt that Men were treated unfairly.

Confusticated showed that all the races left in Middle-earth had the same problems and the same help/protection from the Valar. That is only from Ulmo. This was a very good line of argument and has much merit. Nenya failed to show that the Dwarves or the Ents received any extra help or protection over and above that given to Men.

Nenya only showed that there seemed to be some preferential treatment of the Elves but not of the others. This is not enough in itself to prove that Men were treated unfairly. Confusticated had done much to show that in Middle-earth all were in the same position and treated the same.

This debate was in my view very close and had Confusticated been able to continue the line of argument into her final post she could have produced a most telling answer to the question.

I vote in favour of Nenya Evenstar.

[Ancalagon]

Well done to both members for entering into what was definitely a challenging debate on a taxing question.

I see neither member having an easier side to argue in this debate, as there are two trains of thought on the matter. Upon first appearance, many would say that Men were treated unfairly, and especially by the Valar. However, upon more scrutiny it is easier to identify with the actual question, the whole picture being whether Men as a race were treated unfairly throughout history, and not simply by the Valar.

Both participants sought to drive home their own side of the debate, mostly by focusing on the role of the Valar in the their existence. Nenya would have us understand that Men were ignored by the Valar, whereas Nom would support the idea that Men were simply treated differently, but not unfairly. However, based on the strength of the arguements put forward by Nenya, I felt Men were not treated with the same degree of concern as Elves. Yet, Nom made a valid response which is pertinent to the debate as a whole Any inaction by the Valar at this point in time concerned all the races in middle-earth, not just men. Although that line of debate was strong, it was not as strong as the fact that the Valar did make every effort for the firstborn and a half-hearted lack of support for the Secondborn. In this respect, Men were treated unfairly by the Valar, according to the strength of the arguements in this debate.

Nom had the opportunity to hit back with the other aspect of this debate, that which does not concern the Valar. The treatment of Men among the other races. When all is said and done, Men received a fair portion of good fortune in Middle-Earth, not the least inheriting it for their own ends to the eternal demise of both Dwarves, Elves and Ents alike. Men in the South and East were their own masters, lords of their own lands under the power of Sauron, but wealthy in their own right. None of their Lands were sacked by the powers of the enemy, because they were the enemy. Unless you count the forays of the Numenoreans, the realms of Arnor and Gondor in their greatest and most glorious days. For the purposes of this debate, this was not unfair treatment by any stretch. Sadly though, most of the focus of the debate was centered around the Valar, the early history of the Race of Men, not the strength and might it became, not the rule of King Elessar nor the demise of all other races, not the might of Mens contribution to the demise of Sauron The Sorcerer, not the great respect bestowed upon the Houses of the Edain, nor the kinship between Elves and Men that outweighed that of relations with Dwarves, Ents or Hobbits.

For the purposes of this debate, much was missed that ought to have been covered. It was this that Nom ought to have focused on to strengthen her corner against the potency of Nenya's focus on the Valar, rather than trade blows. Therefore, my vote goes to Nenya.

[Turgon]

Firstly congratulations to both Nenya and Nóm on an interesting debate - that being said I'll get on with my judging, my reply has been long enough in coming... ahem... sorry!?!

Okay I'm going to cast my vote for Nenya... the reason? Nenya put forward a good case for the Valar abandoning men to darkness in Middle-earth, and I think that Nóm did not make the most of certain facts and speculations which she could have used to counter Nenya's arguements. The Moriquendi I thought could have been used by Nóm a little more (regardless of Nenya's statement that they brought their woes upon themselves by their refusal to answer the Valar's summons) The Moriquendi suffered just as much as the race of men during the long darkness of Melkor's reign. Secondly I think Nóm should have pointed out that the Race of Men came into existence with the Rising of the Sun and by then events in had taken place in Valinor which would change the Valar's mode of interaction with the People of Middle-earth for ever. Could the Valar have sallied forth to save mankind by waging a war against Morgoth?

'and Manwë knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh. And it is said indeed that, even as the Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi, so now for that time they forbore for the sake of the Hildor, the Aftercomers, the younger Children of Ilúvatar. For so grievous had been the hurts of Middle-earth in the war upon Utumno that the Valar feared lest even worse should now befall; whereas the Hildor should be mortal, and weaker than the Quendi to withstand fear and tumult. Moreover it was not revealed to Manwë where the beginning of Men should be, north, south, or east. Therefore the Valar sent forth light, but made strong the land of their dwelling.'

I feel that Nóm could also have made more of the Valar's dealings with all the peoples of Middle-earth at the time of man's awakening... Was the Valar's treatment of the Noldorin Exiles and the Elves of Beleriand any better? Nothing much was made of The Freedom of The Secondborn's either. Did not the Race of Man have a greater degree of freewill than any other race in Middle-earth, was it not their choice to choose between darkness and light? I think Anc pointed out quite ably that those that chose the darkness prospered well enough... and so on the basis of what I have read I give my vote to Nenya - by a whisker.

[Nóm]

Elen Carnë, Gothmog, Ancalagon, and Turgon, thanks for taking the time to judge this debate!

[Maedhros]

I would like to thank the judges for their time and effort in making their decisions, and I would also like to thanks the participants for their involvement in the debate.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Thank you to all the judges for your time! And thank you Nom for debating! I believe I learned a lot from my first one-on-one. I am gratified, humbled, and rather embarassed to have most of you say that I won - even though by a hair. :o All I can say is, I tried my best. Thank you! :)