Alcohol - good or bad?

[Legolam]

I noticed that since the mods deleted a thread in S+B about alcohol because they thought it had deteriorated into bragging about underage drinking, I'd ask the Tweens what they thought of the subject (serious discussion). I didn't actually see that thread as about underage drinking, because I'm not actually underage here and drinking is part of what I do.

But what is your opinion? Are the current age limits sensible? Should drinking be part of our culture as young people, or are we just being really immature and stupid? Basically, is drinking alcohol a good thing or not?

[Snaga]

Yes. Its good. The End.









Hmmm perhaps I will qualify that slightly by saying that drinking to constant excess is clearly not too good really. I used to drink too much ... by which I dont mean the odd party but very often. It was something that resolved itself but it was a bad thing to do. I think pretending that you can stop teenagers drinking is naive. My experience is that there is always a way. The French seem better at making it so that teenagers learn to drink sensibly by allowing wine at family meals etc... this is better than underage drinking in bars or elsewhere (which is what I did).

[Grond]

Just a note. The previous thread was removed because it was not a discussion but a party of people extolling the fun and even virtues of underage drinking and drinking to excess. It also began to address the issues of drug legalization.

As long as this thread maintains focus on those issues, it will be welcome to stay on forum. If it degenerates in anyway into a party thread not seriously discussing these issues, it will be removed. I am not making the call here, the WM is. He has serious concerns about the way the forum is portrayed so please maintain focus and topic.

[TheFool]

I think one of the reasons why the other thread got closed was because of a post I made :

"It's all a question of tolerance ;) "

This was not meant as a boast of my 'drinking capacity' or anything, as I weigh 9 1/2 stone :) . It was in response to an earlier post concerning attitudes to dope smoking as compared to drinking. Anyway I should have made the point better.

One of my best friends at college was an alcoholic, and it wasn't good to see a 17 yr old having to hide plastic bottles full of spirits inside his coat on the way to lessons. But it annoys me when I hear drinking being compared to drug taking (or even smoking); look at the number of people who take drugs that are addicts, vs the number of people who drink who are alcoholics: it is ridiculous. In the same way, moderate smoking will always lead to ill health, moderate drinking will not.

When I consider the 'best times of my life' then loads of them involve alcohol; I think it was Nietzche :D who frowned upon people drinking to overcome their social problems/gain dutch courage etc, maybe I should read more of that :p

[legoman]

Hmm, I don't like alcohol... Its just got the whole yeast taste thing going on, but i drink it cos its sometimes cheaper than lemonade (strange) and I figure if I have enough I'll get used to it. I've tried this for over a year now and its still gross, nevermind.
But on the whole getting drunk front... I don't like that either, I mean for some people its good cos it makes them more outgoing which can make a night at least 7 times as good, like when some people wont dance when they go to a club, after they've drunk a bit, they do, which is good. but I dunno, I've only been properly drunk I think three times now (don't worry tookish, I'll send you the gory details of last sunday shortly) and Its not that much fun, being tipsy is OK, but any more and I find it unpleasent.
I think I may be weird, a student who doesn't like drinking...

[Legolam]

As hard as this may be to imagine, I agree with Legoman. I've never enjoyed drinking, and I certainly don't do it for the taste of the drinks. I have, however, been drunk many times in my life (most recently last night, which I'm regreting now. I woke up physically shaking, which isn't a good sign. I'm going to stop now).

I drink because I enjoy the tipsy feeling, and very very occasionally I have the most fantastic night when I'm really really drunk. Most of the time, I just throw up and feel ill the next day.

The reason I opened this thread is that I was having an argument with my friend the other day about underage drinking. Despite both of us doing it at some point in our lives, he argued that it should be clamped down on by US style drinking laws like raising the age limit etc. I disagreed because I've been brought up sensibly by my parents in the French way (see Snaga's post) ie drink some wine at the table when you're young, learn to drink sensibly.

Then i thought about it and asked if it really made any difference. I still went out to the pub at 15, thought nothing of getting smashed from that age on, and still regularly do it (more, if possible). Maybe my friend's right. Maybe it's just part of culture that we think is necessary, but isn't.

[JanitorofAngmar]

Grond,

You state: "It also began to address the issues of drug legalization."

Tell me something. Why is that a bad thing? It does NOT advocate the ingestion of drugs. It IS a political issue that you moderators HAVE passed judgement on. Further, that thread did NOT advocate "hard" drugs (idiot drugs such as Xtasy, heroin, coke, etc.) but addressed cannabis (soft drug) legalization.

What? We can not discuss the issue on this board? Have you seen the cover of the recent issue of TIME magazine? It certainly relates to current events.

What if I were a Mod and I found the discussion of religion offensive on this board and edited accordingly? (I don't-but it passes a similar judgement).

While I can understand the issue surrounding "underage binge fest drinking", which is a threat to life and limb proven again and again and goes beyond responsible use of alcohol (or any substance), I strongly disagree with your statement regarding the inferred "evil" direction.

???

JoA

[Nóm]

Here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=5322) is a thread where the guild of politics discussed the legalization of a certain drug.

[Grond]

JoA,

The topics of underage drinking, being bantered about with reckless abandon, do not mix with serious discussion on the subject of drug use of any kind. That is what my post was meant to convey. First and foremost this is a Tolkien forum and discussions of the type in this guild are more appropriate in the Political Forum where the topic has been and (to the best of my knowledge) is still being discussed.

My warning wasn't addressing the subjects which may or may not be discussed, it was directed at the tone and seriousness of said discussions. I have posted on the marijuana thread in the Political Forum so it is not a taboo issue... but it is an issue that requires mature and serious discussion. WM has instructed us to make sure it remains so.

[JanitorofAngmar]

Yeah O.K. that makes more sense!

I was wondering where you were coming from Grond (you usually make so much sense). I see now that I mis-understood and I apologize for once again going on my typical rant.

*deep bow to Grond*

I would actually be in total agreement with your position as a result of this clarification. Thanks for sorting that out in my cluttered head and I apologize for any harsh words.

I will rant in the appropriate thread as Nom pointed out (so many threads.....so many subjects....hard to keep track...)

JoA

[Ramagna]

I wouldn't say Alcohol is good or bad, it's the way we handle it...
I think Alcohol IS a drug, and I know a lot of my earlier fellow class mates who will become alcohol addicts, and I think it's said to say 'I need it on parties to have fun'... :(
In comparison to marihuana, I would say it's only justified cause it's more integrated in our society, like tabacco, too much industry involved...

I don't say alcohol should be prohibited completely, but I for myself decided to not need it, I never drink and feel good with it, and I can be funny and happy without being drunk, and I think this can be true to everyone...

[Walter]

IMO it all boils down to Paracelsus' conclusion: "The dose makes the poison".

During my younger years there have been times when I strongly disliked alcohol (like all other drugs), then - for a brief periode in my early twens - I was "exploring my tolerance level ;)" by consuming huge amounts of beer. During my thirties I used to have a glass of beer with the meals and occasionally a bottle of wine when we had company.

Now, in my mid-forties, I have almost given up drinking beer, but have become very partial to having a glass of good wine to the meals (or when we have guests) and occasionally a glass of single-malt in the evenings.

While Alcohol is still the only "drug" I consume regularly - well except for drinking coffee frequently and enjoying a pipe once in a while- and I have never even tried others, I would not want to miss it, not because of it's effects (of getting drunk), but for the superb taste of a glass of good wine or single-malt.

So from my personal experience I cannot notice any negative effects so far, scientific studies seem to confirm a very positive effect on the overall health, when moderate amounts of beer and/or wine are consumed regularly, and when that goes together with an overall healthy nutrition.

[Niniel]

I agree with that: if you drink too much alcohol, you will have to pay for it. I myself never drink alcohol, not because I have a problem with it, but because I don't like the taste of it. If other people want to drink it, it's fine with me, as long as they don't bother me with their drunken talk.

[TheFool]

Originally posted by Niniel
If other people want to drink it, it's fine with me, as long as they don't bother me with their drunken talk.
I think this is a very interesting point, I mean it is amazing how much rubbish people actually talk when they are drunk (myself definitely included). If you're used to going out drinking all the time I found it quite an eye-opener to just stay sober and watch other people get drunk a few times

[Walter]

Originally posted by Niniel
I myself never drink alcohol, not because I have a problem with it, but because I don't like the taste of it. If other people want to drink it, it's fine with me, as long as they don't bother me with their drunken talk What is the taste of "alcohol"? I always thought alcohol has no specific taste per se! And beer, wine, whiskey, cognac, various longdrinks, etc., etc., all tastes differently.

And besides, one can drink alcohol without necessarily getting drunk, it depends how much you drink of it...

[Eledhwen]

Jesus turned water into wine so the party could go on (John chapter 2). But Ephesians 5:18 (and elsewhere) warns "do not get drunk on wine". Like money, knives, cream cakes, etc., alcohol is neither good nor bad - it's how you use it.

[Ramagna]

Oh, you're religious, aren't you?

I agree with your outcome, but I'd rather draw it from experience...

[Eledhwen]

I do draw from experience! I haven't been a Christian all my life and in my youth I often drank far too much for my own good. My father was a recovered alcoholic, but the damage caused to his body by alcohol shortened his life. Now I don't need alcohol to have a good time, but every now and then I like a good glass of wine with dinner, or a cold lager on a hot day, or a good old fashioned English pint (mild or bitter, it matters not).

[Niniel]

Walter, I didn't mean the taste of alcohol but the nasty feeling that you get in your throat, sort of a burning feeling (you know what I mean). It completely spoils the taste of the drink for me. I have tried different kinds of alcoholic drinks, but I haven't found any yet that don't cause this. Except Breezers maybe, but then you can just as well
drink lemonade. People always say ' You have to learn to drink alcohol', but why would I try to learn to drink something that I don't really like. Then I could better go on drinking things that I do like. The same goes for coffee; I don't like that either, and I have no intention of learning to drink it

[Eledhwen]

Niniel, your wisdom and logic are unassailable. I had to learn to like alcohol and was encouraged to do so. It was so totally unnecessary, but thankfully I didn't get beyond the ability to control it in the long term. Also, fruit juice, etc., is cheaper and doesn't carry duty, and you will have lots of party invitations because you can drive the drunks home afterwards (though I'm sure that wouldn't be the only reason!). Stick to Miruvor or Limpë.

[Niniel]

Ah, but for that I would need a driver's license.. which I dont have yet :( Over here, driving lessons are very expensive (like 40 dollars per lesson or something), and you need at least 20 lessons before you can take an exam. Most people have to take the exam more than once, and since every exam costs extra money, it gets even more expensive. Besides, my family doesn't even have a car, so if I ever get my license, I would have no car to drive in. But this is beside the topic, so please go on with the alcohol discussion.:)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
Jesus turned water into wine so the party could go on (John chapter 2). But Ephesians 5:18 (and elsewhere) warns "do not get drunk on wine". Like money, knives, cream cakes, etc., alcohol is neither good nor bad - it's how you use it.

I wasn't planning on going into the religious angle on alcohol, but I must comment on this.

The same word for "wine" in the bible refers both to fermented and unfermented wine. The facts are, is that Jesus' miracle was using unfermented wine, not real wine. There was a real zest and appreciation for the grape juice of biblical times. Fermented wine was always criticized and unfermented wine was always praised for its health benefits.
I highly doubt that the same God who said "Wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging and whoseover is deceiveth by this is not wise", would create alcohol so all the guests could get smashed. This erroneous belief that fermented wine was not only approved by God, but used by Christ is nothing more than a compromise for Christians who want to imbibe and not feel guilty.

Anyway, back to the topic. The facts are that nobody knows how their body will adjust to alcohol. Nobody grows up saying "I want to be a wino on the street!" It happens because alcohol is one of the worst drugs around. Most people (especially teenagers) drink to get hosed, not because (like our esteemed imbiber, Walter :) ) who drinks because he likes the taste. We are doing nothing more than creating more future alcoholics by justifying "moderate" drinking.

Will raising the age limit make a difference? Nope. Kids will be getting it under the table as they've been for decades. The solution is our homes and education system showing that abstinence is the best policy because alcohol is the most dangerous and addictive drug around. The fact that it is legal does nothing to change that fact.

[Legolam]

I used to, and to a certain extent still do, think that showing our kids how to drink sensibly (like Walter!) when they're young is a much better way of stopping binge drinking than telling them "just say no". I know it didn't work with me, but then how much worse would I be if my parents had just sad "alcohol's baaad" and banned me from going out to the pub with my friends. I think I'd be drinking a whole lot more now if they'd done that.

Here's a controversial point - who says binge drinking is that bad? Sure, you feel bad the next morning, some people injure themselves or others, a tiny minority get badly hurt. But weigh that against the people who genuinely have a great time whilst really quite drunk once a week or fortnight. Most people only do it between the ages of about 17-25 (at least in this country), so the damage to your health isn't that substantial and, lets face it, it's fun. Any comments?

[Walter]

Originally posted by Niniel
Walter, I didn't mean the taste of alcohol but the nasty feeling that you get in your throat, sort of a burning feeling (you know what I mean). It completely spoils the taste of the drink for me. I have tried different kinds of alcoholic drinks, but I haven't found any yet that don't cause this. Except Breezers maybe, but then you can just as well
drink lemonade. People always say ' You have to learn to drink alcohol', but why would I try to learn to drink something that I don't really like. Then I could better go on drinking things that I do like. The same goes for coffee; I don't like that either, and I have no intention of learning to drink itI see now what you mean, Niniel, though this mainly applies for brandies (~40% alc.) or "harddrinks", not for beer, wine or "softdrinks"...

If I were you I wouldn't "learn to drink alcohol" either, eventually you might or might not start liking some beverages which contain alcohol, but that's IMO nothing that is worth being forced...

[Ancalagon]

I suppose 'excess' is dictated a lot by the culture in which one lives. I for one have always been drawn to the underbelly of society, I have been tempted by and partaken of every vice known to man and as a result learned hard and fast lessons. Maybe I am easily led, alternatively, it may be that I am simply one of those people who jumps feet first into everything with vigour and blinkered-vision!

Alcohol in my circle of friends plays a large part in our social gatherings. However, as alcohol contributes to a large part of violent crime within society, it is understandable that it is frowned upon by many. Yet, with it being so accessible to every age group, the problems will always be underlying. So, what options are there? Do we reintroduce prohibition and drive it underground? Do we limit the availability? Do we change licencing laws to prevent 'binge-drinking'? It kills more people than any other drug! It causes more violent crime, road-deaths and divorces and suicides than should be acceptable in any civilised society while still it remains a focal point for the majority of society. Education and moderation is the key, but even this would not stop those people like me who set out on a Friday or Saturday night with one pupose only! I can tell you, I am not in a minority group either. The fact remains, while it is legal for those people over 18 or 21 (depending on where you live) it will remain a poison chalice and everyone (directly or indirectly) will feel the effects of drinking from it!

[Legolam]

So are you saying that the current age limits should be revised? My argument would be against this, as underagers can get alcohol anywhere really. Raising the limit to, say, 21 would stop people like me being able to drink legally (I'm 19), but I'd still do it.

However, against this, maybe raising the age limit would raise the age of those drinking illegally. I started going to the pub when I was 15, a fact I'm not especially proud of, and maybe if the limit was 21, I'd have hung off a few years. But then, maybe not.

Alcohol is such a part of our culture, especially here in Northern Europe, that I don't think it will change except in the very long term. No-one's answered by binge drinking question properly by the way.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Legolam
So are you saying that the current age limits should be revised? My argument would be against this, as underagers can get alcohol anywhere really. Raising the limit to, say, 21 would stop people like me being able to drink legally (I'm 19), but I'd still do it.


No, I am saying depending on where you are, as in many states in the US and various other countries, 21 is the legal age. What I personally beleive is that access to alcohol should be restricted. I can buy alcohol in most supermarkets or off-sales around my town. I know for a fact that underage drinking is a huge problem, because there is always someone willing to buy it for them or willing to sell it to them. This is the problem, if it was more difficult to obtain for underage drinkers a lot of the issues being discussed would be addressed. However, this does not tackle the problem of adults who drink in access and commit violent crimes against each other, their partners or their kids. How ought this issue be dealt with?

[Legolam]

That is definitely more difficult. You cannot restrict access to alcohol for adults because of a minority. It would be completely socially unacceptable here, and no government would ever contemplate it. I guess what is needed is a stricter enforcement of existing pub laws. For example, it is illegal to sell alcohol to someone who is drunk (yes, really). Most pubs ignore this and continue to sell beer etc to alcoholics, troublemakers and underage kids. Tighter enforcement may stop someone going out and getting really smashed, then going home and beating his wife and kids.

Furthermore, people shouldn't turn a blind eye to things like this going on. There should be more support for those adults getting themselves into trouble with alcohol, like better rehabilitation and treatment. Better supervision and vigilance with families who are at risk would help, as the majority of the time, you know what's going on but you do nothing.

On the topic of underage kids getting alcohol, I believe that restricting access wouldn't help. Because it's such a huge culture thing, I think people will always be willing to help out kids getting alcohol. People here don't see it as a heinous crime.

I still don't totally see what the whole problem with alcohol is. So far, everyone's agreed that it's bad, but for what reason? It's just sort of accepted that it's bad, and that something should be done about it, but why? If everyone's vigilant for the minority getting out of control, and there are proper back ups for them, why should alcohol be this big taboo? I realise I'm being Devil's Advocate a bit here, but I'd like your opinions (it goes back to this argument I had with my friend, I'm determined to win!)

[Eledhwen]

originally posted by Thorin: The facts are, is that Jesus' miracle was using unfermented wine, not real wine. .... This erroneous belief that fermented wine was not only approved by God, but used by Christ is nothing more than a compromise for Christians who want to imbibe and not feel guilty. Deuoteronomy 14:25-6 says to those who cannot get to the temple to sacrifice "then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice."

God is not displeased with use, but abuse.

[Snaga]

My experience of going to the US was that the drinking age limit was completely flouted, and everyone from at least 18 onwards had fake ID, or at the very least a friend with fake ID who could get the drinks in. I dont know if thats true or not, since I only went to a couple of states. I have to say, since I went when I was 19, it felt ridiculous to not be able to drink after being able to for so long in Britain.

Having said that, I was drinking illegally at the age of 16. But I don't like the idea that I can pay tax at 16, but not drink.

[Wonko The Sane]

Yeah, everyone either has a fake ID or knows someone who does. I had a fake ID when I was in Indiana but it was confiscated by an unruly bar-owner.
*Sigh* It makes me angry that I am legally considered an adult by US law, and yet I can't drink like one.
What does that tell you?!

Emigration please!

[Niniel]

I don't understand the US law concerning alcohol. Here in the Netherlands your are allowed to buy alcohol (and tobacco) legally from the age of 16, but the official age of majority is 18. So it's exactly the opposite from the US, where alcohol is forbidden even after you're officially an adult. BTW, here you can buy marihuana legally from the age of 18, which is something that you really shouldn't try to do in the US. So you might consider emigrating here.... ;)
I'm not sure whether it is a good thing to have these 'soft' age restrictions; but I don't think that a higher age will result in less alcohol abuse. Most 16-year-olds that I know are wise enough to handle alcohol, and if they can't by 16 they can't by 18 either.

[Wonko The Sane]

I can't emigrate to the Netherlands...I have business to attend to in England. ;)

Anyway, you're right about alcohol, but at the same time I think 16 is too young for an official drinking age. Most kids I knew in High School couldn't handle alcohol, and since the driving age is 16 over here it just seems like trouble to me to hand over booze and a vehicle to a kid at 16.

18 though should definitely be the drinking age! I'm an adult and I can make my own decisions.

*tired of The Man holding her down* "D@mn The Man! Save the Empire!"

[Ice Man]

Bad, for sure. Especialy when you are yound and you do it for the fun.

[Legolam]

But why is it bad if it's just fun? Can't we just learn to accept that it's fun, have our fun and be sensible about it all?

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by Legolam
But why is it bad if it's just fun? Can't we just learn to accept that it's fun, have our fun and be sensible about it all?

The fact that you have fun drinking, does not imply in all other people thinking it's fun too. And it is proven that drinking in certain quantities is hazardous to your health, not to mention that it brings consequences to many people, and not only to the one who is drinking.

Life in society is first about responsibilites, and then about fun.

[Legolam]

that drinking in certain quantities is hazardous to your health But then again in certain quantities it's good for you.

My point is that the huge majority of people who drink don't suffer any consequences, and don't inflict anything on other people. For them, it's fun because they can drink with responsibility. So you can have fun AND be responsible :)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Legolam
But then again in certain quantities it's good for you.

My point is that the huge majority of people who drink don't suffer any consequences, and don't inflict anything on other people. For them, it's fun because they can drink with responsibility. So you can have fun AND be responsible :)

And the health benefits of drinking are...? Wine helps prevent heart disease? Please. Alcohol has no nutritional benefits and any miniscule health benefits are swallowed up in the negative effects it has on the brain and major organs. Anyone who takes up drinking for good health reasons shouldn't because they need their heads checked already.

Nobody grows up to say, "Hey, I want to be a wino on the street with no home and no job!" Everybody starts by assuming that you will "drink with responsibility". Irresponsibility happens because alcohol is a DRUG. You do not know if or when you will cross that line from "responsible drinking" to addiction. And by that time it is too late. We are fooling ourselves if we encourage young people to take up drinking with the attitude that they will only drink responsibly.

[Ancalagon]

No harm to you Thorin, but if you were raised in a 'stiff, alcohol-free, religious society, then more power to you;)

I for one was raised in a society where alcohol is the DRUG, for good or ill, because it satisfies a societies desire to forget the problems of the world. Basically, no one wants to end up as a wino in the street, but the harsh realities are that every community needs a DRUG to release them from the drab, mundane, and difficult lives they live. They need to drop their inhibitions and occasionally delve into inequity for a short time, forgetting God, forgetting their troubles and even forgetting themselves is truly the essence of human cultural society. It will not change, ever. So, forget that alcohol is either good or bad, it will remain, if one cannot handle it, tough, it is simply the drug for the masses, either in excess or abuse.

As for young people drinking.......it is sadly a product of our tolerance of alcohol in society. If a young person see's drink as being a release from their own boredom and dull, drab existence, they will jump at the chance to sneak a drink. In the very same way they will seek to take Ecstacy, Cocaine or Amphetamines. Not because it is right, but because it is entirely wrong. I do not condone it, but as I was once one of the wasted youth, I understand entirely the desires and temptations that they face. No amount of religion will stop the rot that affects society, because society as a whole is rotten to the core. So, either you choose to detatch yourself from it, or you choose to be a product of that society, but for many, the illusion that the underbelly of society offers more interesting choices is to tempting to ignore. Let's face it, there are some harsh, difficult realities in life, Alcohol is one of many.

[Snaga]

There have been studies that suggest drinking in small quantities is beneficial. Mostly becaue it acts as a relaxant, and allows people to release stress.

But of course, those benefits are balanced out by lots of risks. But it is wrong to suggest that You do not know if or when you will cross that line from "responsible drinking" to addiction. And by that time it is too late. Frankly, it is quite possible to keep track of how much alcohol you consume, and to keep within safe limits. The fact that some people fail to do this, doesn't prove it is impossible.

I would say it is more irresponsible to have a high-handed 'all drinking is dangerous and immoral' attitude. Because what is needed is awareness of the risks, and an understanding of how to stay in control. But people, especially young people, won't listen if you deliver a finger-wagging lecture.

We are fooling ourselves if we encourage young people to take up drinking with the attitude that they will only drink responsibly. But more to the point, we are fooling ourselves if we think that young people will listen if we tell them not to drink at all!

[Walter]

Originally posted by Thorin
And the health benefits of drinking are...? Wine helps prevent heart disease? Please. Alcohol has no nutritional benefits and any miniscule health benefits are swallowed up in the negative effects it has on the brain and major organs. Anyone who takes up drinking for good health reasons shouldn't because they need their heads checked already.
How about declaring prohibition worldwide once again?

Thorin, I wouldn't call your statement above "narrowminded", but it does seem to contain a sense of "ignorance" or "uninformedness". Various - serious - medical studies have more or less proved the benefits of wine or beer - consumed in moderate amounts of course. Reduction of coronary heart diseases (funnily called the "French Paradox" in the english speaking part of the world), lowering the cholesterol and rising the HDL (high density lipoproteine) level and hence reducing arteriosclerosis as well as the risk of suffering a stroke, reduction of ulcer risc (because of the reduction of helicobacter), reduced cancer risks because of the contained bioflavonoids (which work as antioxidants), a reduced risk of suffering alzheimer's disease etc., etc.

Drinking wine or beer has no benefits? Please! Either read some published medical studies or maybe do a search on the web!

Alcohol is dangerous indeed, but surely not when consumed in moderate amounts and a general - and uninformed - condemnation of it doesn't help one bit to prevent someone from abuse...

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by Legolam
My point is that the huge majority of people who drink don't suffer any consequences

You are wrong. There was one uncle of mine who was alcoholic, and he brought trouble to the entire family, which is at least some 20 people who I know of, not to mention some other people who have no contact with me.

[Snaga]

Thats very sad to hear Arcanjo.

But the point is not that alcoholism isnt a terrible thing. But you won't prevent it by trying to stop people drinking. People will drink anyway. And most people who drink, control their drinking. Some people don't and they need all the help we can give them.

[Eledhwen]

I know people who think that reality is an unwelcome state brought about by alcohol deficiency.

Thorin speaks some truth; the fact is that you don't know you have an addictive personality until you get addicted.

People who are addicted to shopping, cigarettes or overeating have a socially acceptable way to ruin their lives. People addicted to alcohol (and certain other drugs) have an addiction that is deemed unacceptable.

But what Walter says is also true (I think - the bits I understood). Alcohol has medicinal properties and, like other "cures", its side effects can kill you when taken in excess.

[Wonko The Sane]

Quick thing...

My mother just might be an alcoholic, and my grandfather DIED from alcoholism and its complications...

But I agree with Snaga...you can't stop alcoholism by stopping people from drinking.

It's a disease....it just works that way.

[greypilgrim]

Hey everybody! I just wanted to say that if you drink beer in the morning and coffee at night, you have a problem! (J/K, not really!)
I drink Heineken day or night, same with coffee, but never on the same day.;)
Alcohol has many uses, most popular for humans is consumption. There's alcohol used in cooking, first aid, in airplane fuel I think, and at football games. Occasionally, you may find it at parties, too:)
I think alcohol is good, just to answer the first question in here!
But it gets people to do crazy stuff, except for when they're cooking, and that can be bad. This has been proven. Drink responsibly. Don't drive drunk, everything will be OK.:)

[Wonko The Sane]

Just a note: I'm going to England and I'm going to bars.

EAT THAT, AMERICA!!!

[Grond]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Just a note: I'm going to England and I'm going to bars.

EAT THAT, AMERICA!!! AMERICA!!
LOVE IT or LEAVE IT!!

Cya!!;) :p

[greypilgrim]

English bars? Never been to one! But American bars/clubs are cool! (Even though most American beer is water)
I only like certain beers, only 1 American beer, and they are served COLD, over here. ;)

Heineken says "OK+" in bold-face letters, on the label! You don't get advertisements like that everyday!:D

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by Grond
AMERICA!!
LOVE IT or LEAVE IT!!

Cya!!;) :p

Trying to get rid of me, eh? Oh well.

And I DO love America...I just chose to leave it as well. :p

[legoman]

You should try belgium beer, and german, hhm, they're better, especially the ones flavoured like cherries and blackcurrant, hmm.

Yup, normal beer are pants, heinekeineineneikekeneikenneine sucks! hehe

Actually I hate beer, but flavoured ones are hilarious! hehe.

long live lemonade!

[Wonko The Sane]

I like alcoholic lemonade! :rolleyes:

[greypilgrim]

HEINEKEN SUCKS????
You obviously don't like beer! If you hate what you're talking about, dont bother. I just like beer, thats all!

Flavored beer is ****-water, pour it down the toilet!
Beer is for people who like to "fill up".
Is German beer better cold?:)

Dude, everyone I know, around me, drinks beer, most of them..
I have been changing all of their beers to Heineken lately, over the last year or so..They all have admitted it's better, than most American beers.. By changing their beers, I mean, buying them a duece (24 oz.) of Heineken. Heineken also has a great RED STAR, on the front of the label! That might have something to do with it...

Mikes lemonade is cool. I like Jack Daniels, Blackberry.;)

[legoman]

No way, that has to be wrong, heine*whatever the spelling is* is probably the worst tasting beer I've had since I came to uni!!! its vile. It just tastes like pure yeast or something. You should get out more, visit some other pubs, drink some nicer drinks.

Pepsi Max is the best!!!!

and wonks, stop poisoning my lemonade!

[Aulë]

Pepsi Max is terrible.
By taking out the sugar, they take out most of the taste. Whatever substitute they put in it is disguisting.
I'd have to rank it above Dr. Pepper though- that would be the foulest drink ever!

[TheFool]

ahh - back in the days, when we used to drink Tizer just because it was fluorescent red :D *adds Tizer to shopping list*

I don't mind the occasional Dr Pepper, but I can't see why they make it in like 2litre bottles too - I mean for me, the novelty wears off after 1 cans worth...

[DGoeij]

You people obviously live in the wrong corner of the world. :D
Down here, the easy acces to the German and Belgium beer market is a blessing. Aside from the beers produced right here. Heineken is somewhat problematic, the export-product just isn't the same as the one brewed for the local market, but to me neither are very good. I prefer Grolsch, but that gives me the trouble of being an almost ethnic minority in my scout group. The western, urban part of the Netherlands tends to drink Heineken, while the eastern and more rural parts, prefer Grolsch. But these drink are part of the family of Pils or Pilzen, which is quite different from actual beer. If I remember correctly the British call them Lager.

But if I'm in for a tasteful beer, I drink Palm. And on a hot summer day, one cannot withstand the taste of a Wieckse Witte.:)

[Legolam]

I used to hate lager, but it really grows on you after a while. Anyway, after tomorrow's exam, I'll be sampling many different kinds I'm sure!

And on the subject of American beer - Continental beer like Stella, San Miguel and Grolsch is far superior. Miller really is just water (although I wasn't complaining at Hogmanay! Still getting through that crate).

[Aulë]

There's nothing I like more than a Heineken Premium or a Crown Lager whilst havin a BBQ.
VB or EB are good if I feel like emptying a few cartons with my mates.
Carlton Middies are a nice cheap buy at the pub.

One beer that I detest is Fosters, I honestly don't know why a lot of foreigners like it. There are very few Australians that do, although it's portayed as an Aussie beer.

[greypilgrim]

I never got into overseas beer. I just drank the American water-beer for fun, when I was a kid.:)
And I drink 48 oz. of Heineken almost everyday..in the summer after a long days work.

American beer- water, blech!!!

I'm sure I missed some good beers, somewhere!
Fosters is awesome! Australian for beer....right?

[Aulë]

Maybe overseas, but not in Australia ;)

[TheFool]

Heineken always reminds me of the film 'Blue Velvet' :D ;)

Oranjeboom is/was one of my favourites, there was always a stampede of students to the off-licence when it was 8 cans for £5..

But not any more, my New Year's Resolution is still firmly in place, and I've saved a lot of money... woohoo!

[greypilgrim]

I was thinking of getting the heineken label tatooted on my arm...but that was last summer, during the HOTTEST days! Not seriously, of course..But the thought did cross my mind.
I'm not that much of a fool!
Dudes, I'm trying to get a pic on here! I think I e-mailed one, today to the webmaster...does anyone know if he'll put it up? I asked him to put it in the GOPeriaur photo thread.

There's a bar called "The 1899" near me...i need to go there soon! It's called 1899 for the number of different, world-wide "tours" you (me, I) can go on...I went to germany! :D I did not have a nice trip, yaknow?;)

The best pop...Coke!

[Aulë]

How come you cant post the pic?
Just upload it from your computer.

[Elbereth]

The best pop...Coke!

IT'S NOT CALLED POP...IT'S CALLED SODA!! *twitches*

:p sorry....I get an adverse reaction to people who refer to soda as pop...maybe it's a east coast thing. *shrugs*

[greypilgrim]

Soda Popinski was a boxer in the game---"Mike Tyson's Punch-Out", for Nintendo. :rolleyes:

[legoman]

Originally posted by Elbereth
IT'S NOT CALLED POP...IT'S CALLED SODA!! *twitches*


Actually its neither, its just a fizzy drink... or if you really push me a soft drink, though soft is a silly name for it. just fizzy!

[Aulë]

It's called 'soft drink' here.
It's not too soft though... so I agree with legoman

[greypilgrim]

"Soft-drinks"...that's it! I've heard it called that alot around here. Is that aggreeable term?
I mix soft drinks with different whiskeys/vodkas. Who else does this, or do you just drink "straight up", even though the drink goes "down"...? Just wondering.:D Because yesterday I got a whiskey-sour-pitcher. A whole pitcher! Whoa.....and it was green for St. Patties Day. (note to self......do again next year!!!!!!)

[Elbereth]

Ah! Whisky sours! That is my signature drink...I love the stuff. (I also mix alcohol with my soft drinks as well...whisky and gingerale, rum and coke...gin and tonic...it's all good!)

However, last night I had good old Sam Adams beer for St. Patty's. I know...it is not necessarily Irish...but isn't Sam Adams a Boston beer? That's close enough for me! :D

[greypilgrim]

I think I remember them claiming Boston, not really sure.:confused: Dortmunder Gold is from Cleveland! So is the Moonlight tobacco co. (hate them!) They had cool elephant cigs and all, plus bees and bears I think. Elephants too. Wierd.

I like vodka/juice, whiskey-sours of any color and flavor. I always liked to try and mix stuff together, for fun. Not always "fun" though!:eek: Today i just order drinks, for fun.:)

[legoman]

hmm, did I hear someone ask if anyone else mixes alcoholic spirits and soft drinks? I think you might find that anyone over the age of about 16 in england will have done that at some point or another... except me of course...

[tookish-girl]

Well, I'm definitely guilty of that. Tia Maria and Coke, I used to drink that all the time in my youth. Ahhhhhhhh happy days. Then our local pub banned it because not enough people were having it. Ridiculous! We were in there every week!

By the way, I think Sam Adams is a Boston beer. They certainly drank alot of it when I was there! You can even get it in the airport!

[legoman]

*cough cough* EVERYDAY!! *cough cough*

anyway... speaking of alcohol, I've given it up.

bye bye.

[tookish-girl]

After the amount you were drinking last weekend, I don't blame you!:D

Only kidding, you know I have so little money, I can't afford to drink alcohol anymore. What kind of a student am I? :(

[legoman]

Hey that was... yeah, entirely true. hehe.

But I have, I'm not drinking again until my birthday, except perhaps next saturday when I'm invited to a party so I'm not sure whats going on there.

[tookish-girl]

You can be a weekend drinker!
One of my friends is doing that. Unfortunaetly it means she gets plastered every weekend and comes up smiling on Mondays!


And what's wrong with that?:D

[Wonko The Sane]

Hehe.
I'm sure everyone has mixed rum and coke! Although don't do white rum and coke it's just minging IMO.

And Tookish was big on the Vodka and Coke when I saw her.

And Legoman was seriously drinking EVERYTHING. :)

I LOVE Engalnd! I can buy alcohol and go to pubs and NOT get arrested!
It's brilliant!

Oh, and Sam Adams IS a Boston bear but it's rubbish.

Grolsch is really good though. :)

[tookish-girl]

Ah Grolsch. I don't like beer but I know you can use the cool swing tops to hold your guitar together or something.

Yes, vodka and coke is lovely! I was well annoyed when I went to America and couldn't drink a damn thing or even go into pubs, bars or clubs. I mean you can do that in England at any age as long as you have coke or something and don't drink alcohol til you're 18.

[legoman]

haha, yeah, my guitar/beer knowledge rubs off!!! its to keep the strap on your guitar!! so it doesn't fall off mid concert.

but really wonko:And Legoman was seriously drinking EVERYTHING.
thats just not true. At least not that I remember... hehehe. Do you know I went upstairs and turned the guitar amp on and DIDN'T play it!!!!! I must have drunk way too much, but I guess I did get the banjo... I think....

[Melko Belcha]

I don't drink, and not just because of the taste but that I had 3 friends die in high school from alcohol poisoning. I'm not against alcohol, but society dosen't help, they tell young kids they can not drink, and in movies and t.v. adults are always drinking and having a great time. Telling young kids, "you can't do that, your not old enuff" makes kids want to do it. My dad was a heavy beer drinker and never tried to push on me that underage drinking was wrong, (I know this sounds bad but it's not) he let me know about it and didn't just use the excuse "you ain't old enuff". All my friends drank through high school and I never got drunk until I was 20, and I haven't had one drink in over 2 years (I'm only 25). So I feel it really is up to the parents how they raise there kids, if you tell them "you can't do it", it makes them want to, but if you give your kids actual reasons and make it so it dosen't seem like their missing out on something wonderfull, then maybe there wouldn't be so much out of control underage drinking.

[Wonko The Sane]

Yeah, you were playing that banjo while you were sitting on the stairs behind the couch. :)
I felt bad though so I told them to move the couch back. At least I think I did.
I wasn't drunk but I was pretty near passed out on the floor by that time.
I was REALLY ill.

[tookish-girl]

In ref to Melko's post, I think having the drinking law so high in America really doesn't help. In England you drink a bit when you're underage but never to the alcohol poisonning level. Then at least by the time you're 18, it's legal anyway and that "Oh we're doing something naughty" thing is over. Then at uni you can drink socially and that's about it.
But in America, you don't have that. You can't just sit in a bar and say "I'll only have one today coz I've got no money" or just drink Coke because you're not even allowed in the bars. So all drinking is at underground parties where there's no limit too how much you have. Hence people binge drinking to stupid extents. Also, you can't go to one of those parties and just have soft drinks becuase the point of them is to have alcohol.
One thing I realised in America, that this law is not helping young 'uns like us!

[Wonko The Sane]

Amen to that, Tookish! I've been living in the US all my life and when I went away to Uni I noticed exactly that thing.
We had horrible problems with binge drinking. There was almost NO social drinking like I encountered in England.
And in England the attitude towards alcohol is far more relaxed.

It's really a detriment to American society these rules are.

[Elfhelm25]

Theres drinking and theres drinking to me.

I am 18, and I love a good glass of wine, or once in awhile, a mix of something, like bloody marys , etc.

I dont really see the excitement in going out and getting drunk, just because, well, I dunno, I dont like it. Alchohol is a depressant. I guess maybe it opens people up, I dont know. I am an extremly open and fun person, I love going out and acting like a nut with my friends, only I dont need the alcohol, Im insane enough ! I guess my personality is "alcohol" enough to me, I dont enjoy being drunk at all, and I dont like being around seriously drunk people either. I guess people do it to enhance their personality, I just dont see why. Most of my friends drink sometimes, some even smoke up, and thats ok, if thats what they want, but they seem to get more depressed and out of it when thyre drunk than when were all sober and insane. Theres no better feeling than getting a rush from doing some crazy wild thing ! Ive only been drunk once, back in the day, I dont drink much more than a glass of wine now and then, its not a big deal to me. Am I alone in that ?
I just wish people would decide for themselves if they want to drink and not drink for approval or acceptance. A lot of my friends get drunk a lot even though they dont like it, but they want that feeling of "belonging". I guess some people actually have a lot of fun drinking, but, I dont know, I guess what Im trying to say is its not so much about underage drinking, more undermaturity drinking, you know ? When youre younger, youre so easily influenced by whats going on around you, you spend most of your time just trying to fit in and find a place, and I wish people would just ..help. Not try to stop it, say things like "its wrong for young kids to drink " and then go out and do it yourself, its just, for any underage drinkers and etc., you really need to ask yourself why youre drinking, if its just to feel accepted, or maybe grownup, or even to impress people, think it over some more, cause trust me, it can get out of control and you dont even realize it by that time. Now that Im older and into my own thing, Im glad I decided for myself. The problem with drinking is often whats underneath it, to mask insecurity and all that, and then the drinking controls you , not the other way around. But I love my friends , the ones that drink and the ones that dont, and its not a serious issue with me. Ive just seen it happen to a lot of good friends and its not fun or cool then.
Anyway, I hope other ppl keep expressing their opinions, even if they arent mine !!

[Elfhelm25]

Oops for got my point there, I also think we could change half the problem by changing the way society looks at it. I mean, I am from Canada , which, like the US, put the age limit on and pretend to make a big deal out of it. All that does is intice kids to rebel. By pretending it doesnt happen, noone gets to the real issue : teaching kids to drink responsibly. I swear, if you take away half the attention to it, youd cut down the binge drinking and coolness of drinking by so much! If you know its going to happen, you should make exapmles of it. I mean, parents and older kids dont drink so much around their kids, they save it for their football games and bar nights and staff parties..so...why would kids see it any different ? If people drank say, a glass of wine at the diner table, and allowed kids access to bars and say maybe, light drinking, or even just be in bars to dance or have fun or whatever, and basically made them feel stupid if they get too drunk , but mostly not give them what they want ..attention, thats half the problem !! I think changes need to be made on the view big time

[Wonko The Sane]

I'm drunk right now.

Just for the record.

*falls over*

[Aulë]

I've found a good use for alcohol!
Yay!
http://www.haelen.org/cleocalliope/WhetherOrNo/Miscellaneous/Drinking.html

Legolam and Snaga have given it the thumbs up, so it must be good! :D

[Wonko The Sane]

Snaga sent it to me too!
:) I LAUGHED SO HARD!!! :) I give it the seal of approval.

The LushBag Has Spoken! ;)

[Legolam]

Well, I just got my exam results and I went out at 4pm to celebrate, which is qhy alcohol shouldn't be banned. Except that Pip was playing practical jokes on me that I didn't get, which is BAD!!! :rolleyes:

[legoman]

woohoo, well thats my summer all sorted out then, bring on the DVD!!!! hohoho.

Anyone else fancy comng round for a beverage or two?
(please note I am NOT joking!)

[Wonko The Sane]

It's ok Legolam. He does it to me too when I'm drunk.
It's SOOO weird.

He like..says stuff and I just don't get it!! :D

[Aulë]

Hehe, I just love messing with people's minds whilst they're drunk...:p






(Mental Note: Don't appear online whilst drunk- Wonks and Legolam may seek revenge.)

[Wonko The Sane]

OOh! That'd be SOOO FUN!!!

Legolam! Let's plan!!

*Runs off to secret control bunker to plot her revenge, but gets distracted by a 40 of Smirnoff Ice and sits down to have a drink.*

[Legolam]

I hope you all realise how much concentration and time it took me to write that post with only ONE typo yesterday! I WILL seek revenge for that Owly - Wonks and I have already started planning (although it's going slowly owing to the fact we only have one person's quota of brain cells between us).

[Wonko The Sane]

Yeah...that and we keep getting distracted by the bottle. ;)

[legoman]

Can I just take this opportunity to congratualte myself and tooksih for aquiring - free of charge - a secondbottle of WKD blue just cos we knew the wombles lived on wimbledon common!

'remember your a womble!!
remember your a womble!!
remember your a womble!!
remember-member-member what a womble-womble-womble you are!'

[greypilgrim]

sorry for getting back on topic but...

alcohol is GOOD! it's a well-known fact that one drink a day is good for your health!

These days, I drink way less (way less) than I had been recently!

HEINEKEN! is good...

and for liquor...whiskey! wine...I like red wine ya know? white wine isn't for me. wine is better than beer...who agrees?

[Wonko The Sane]

I've just decided that I'm horribly depressed and even more horribly self destructive.

So I aim to get SUPERLY drunk...

Just not tonight.

Tomorrow's good for me. How about the rest of you?

Great.

[Elbereth]

Sorry if this comes out all preachy...but please...

Never...never use alcohol as a crutch for depression. First it will be an excuse for depression, then it will be an excuse for something else...and then it will become a vicious cycle that leads to alcohol abuse and addiction. (I've seen it happen far too often...and it is never cool or alright.) So please...enjoy alcohol if you must...but do not ever use it as a cure for depression...you'll find that is just doesn't work that way.

[Legolam]

I agree with Elbe. I have, in my time, drunk because I was unhappy or bored or couldn't get to sleep. It wasn't fun, I usually ended up being very ill and I just knew it was stupid. I advocate social drinking, as long as you know you're in control and could stop for a long period of time any time you like (something I do fairly regularly, despite contradicting reports!).

PS I'm feeling slightly worse for wear today, something to do with overdoing it slightly last night and the 70% ethanol I have to work with in the lab today. No matter how fun drinking is, the consequences SUCK!!!

[greypilgrim]

I agree.

[Wonko The Sane]

Dear People,

I don't like drinking when I'm in an already bad mood.

It's just...that when you're really depressed as I have been lately, sometimes joking to your friends that you'll just drink yourself out of it is preferable to actually talking about it.

But I know that to drink to cure depression doesn't work. I tried it once.
And I WAS SOOO ILL. The only time I ever threw up. Can't drink Tequila to this day.

I'll never do it again.
:) Thanks for the concern though. :)

P.S.- I'm drunk right now. And I drank cos I was happy. :D

Love,
Wonks

[Elbereth]

Well, as someone who is currently intoxicated at the momment, I want to reemphasize my last post....Never...never use alcohol as a crutch for depression. I had a terrible weekend (won't go into details)...but my friend had the wonderful idea of taking me out and getting me totally smashed. And even though now my mind is numb to the world...I know tommorow, when I have to be fresh for work...I will be tired and hung over. Not a good thing...hence my time spent here in TTF trying to sober up. (my appologies...if my comments are inappropriate at all...stupid alcohol!)...Anyway again! Don't drown your sorrows in booze...it doesn't work!

[Legolam]

How's the head today, Elbe? ;)

[Elbereth]

Amazingly clear thanks!

Actually it was very strange...but I awoke with no hangover whatsoever...and I was wide awake and unusually perky today in work. Hmm....I wonder if I found a cure for people who hate mornings?

:rolleyes: Hehehe...probably not...but getting smashed worked for me! ;)

[tookish-girl]

I would like to announce......

I am never never never-never EVER drinking wine again.
Last night I went out for a drink or several with a friend I hadn't seen for a while. We were doing this deal that meant you bought two glasses of wine and got the rest of the bottle for free. Sounded like a bargain for us poor students. However after doing this twice, it was apparent that meant we'd drank an entire bottle each.

And I had had nothing to eat other than a plate of pasta all day. Anyway, I will spare you the gory details but I've spent the last 18 hours trying to sort myself out and only now can think about looking at solid food again. Or in fact anything that isn't water.

The moral of this story is:
Don't feel obliged to finish off drinks when you know you've had enough!

And:
Don't drink on an empty stomach!

[legoman]

haha, you say that everytime you drink wine.

I love wine, it's great.

hehe, remember when you were drinking wine at that pub near the fez club in hull, the weatherspoons and you couldn't understand me and simon, haha, that WAS funny.

hehe, poor Took.

I've got a bottle of boujoulais ready for when you get back from York!

[DGoeij]

I never liked the taste of wine. I still don't actually. During a good dinner I tend to stick to water, and drink beer afterwards.

In my days as a chemical student I used alcohol for a lot of solutions, but none of them was any good for real-world problems.:p
Besides, sh*t floats!:D

[Finduilas]

Hmm...I like alcohol, I mean I'm not an an alcoholic and I also hate hang-overs but I like drinking yes.:)
I drink when I'm with friends, at parties and when I'm alone and depressed. It helps you forget or at least start crying easilier cause sometimes you really need to cry...
Anyway, I love wine, beer and 'Svinaki'. This is a Bulgarian alcoholic cocktail prepared with vodka, gin, tequila, whiskey and juice. You have to drain the glass as you do with the tequila. GG makes great 'svinakis'! :D
Oh, vodka and tequila are drinks I like too but I prefer svinaki and beer.

[Wonko The Sane]

I got pretty drunk on Tuesday night...I was falling down and I somehow managed to dial Aulë's number in Australia 7 times. :)

But I wasn't hungover. I never am.

I can't wait until I'm back in England where I can drink LEGALLY! :)

[Finduilas]

[i]But I wasn't hungover. I never am. [/B]

LOL!
I almost always am.:(

[Legolam]

Well, I´m leaving Bolivia tomorrow morning at 6am, we have to be at the airport for 4am so we´re just going to stay up and decimate La Paz´s alcohol store! I´ll let you kow how it goes, but I´m not looking forward to a 36 hour journey back to Scotland!!

:cool:

[Aulë]

Hannah, if you are going to an alcohol store (as you say you are), then it is more than likely that you won't even remember the 36 hour flight ;)
Your liver is probably still on holidays, so the effects will be multiplied 10-fold. :D

[Celebthôl]

Yukky, alcohol bad! Makes you stupid things!

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Yukky, alcohol bad! Makes you stupid things!

You should see the stupid things people do for or because of such many things, like money, love or even food. :D

[Legolam]

Originally posted by Aulë
Hannah, if you are going to an alcohol store (as you say you are), then it is more than likely that you won't even remember the 36 hour flight ;)
Your liver is probably still on holidays, so the effects will be multiplied 10-fold. :D Oh God, how true was this! I DON'T recommend EVER drinking before flying. That was a stupid idea. I can't believe I thought it was a good thing. Let's just say that I don't remember leaving La Paz, waking up in Santa Cruz (a 1 1/2 hour flight away) and then I was violently sick for 6 hours on a plane. It was awful. I didn't think it was possible to throw up water.

The moral of the story - remember that altitude, flying and copious amounts of alcohol do not mix!! :rolleyes:

[Wonko The Sane]

Oh my! Poor Leggsielam!!!! :)

Well, at least you're back home right? :) No more high-altitude alcoholism for you! :) You can drink all you want with both feet firmly on solid ground now! :D

[Aulë]

Orignally posted by Legolam
I didn't think it was possible to throw up water.
You better believe it (well....I guess you do now ;) ). But that's nothing; when you start throwing up your stomach lining, you know that you've had waaaaay too much to drink. :p

But I guess you haven't learnt much from this experience, have you?? Don't deny it ;)
I'm betting that you're back into the turps already. :)

[Wonko The Sane]

Turps? What's a turp?
Is that an Aussie word?

[Aulë]

Turps is an Aussie word for 'strong alcohol'. ;)
Turps is also a shortening of the word 'turpentine' (as in mineral turpentine).

[Wonko The Sane]

I know what Turpentine is...:) Thanks.
*sigh*
If you inject turpentine what happens?

[Aulë]

I would not have a clue....
Maybe Legolam knows? I'm fairly certain that if she ran out of alcohol, she'd end up doing just that....;)

[Wonko The Sane]

I'll test it out first.
Wouldn't want Legolam inadvertently dying!

[Legolam]

It's OK, I've recovered and was out celebrating a friend's 21st birthday last night (started Uni today though, which was interesting). Thanks for the concern, Owly and Wonks, but I don't think I need to move on to turps yet ;)

[Beleg]

Alcohal! Bad, bad, really bad thingy..:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Aulë]

How come you say that, Beleg?
It's only people like Miles and Hannah who make it seem bad. ;)

[Inderjit S]

I don't see what is bad about Alchohol unless you regulary drink to excess. But this is often the case, since alcohol can be addictive and this can ruin lives and wreck families. Should it be prohibited? No. Anyone who has seen the unsuccesful prohibiting of alcohol during the 1930's (On the Plus point we get soooooo many great movies/books about it) shows that it had more negative then positive points.

I drink quite a bit, more for socialising then pleasure. Though I limit my drinking and have been slacking off lately mainly because of the ill-effects of getting p***** (mainly hangovers and throwing up, which always sucks) and a lack of general knowledge of what you were doing the other night.

As for fave. drinks:

Snakebite (Bud. with Cider)
Cider Black (Cider with Blackcurrant Juice)
Bacardi and Coke
Red Bull and Vodka (Well before people died from drinking it in Sweden. Kept well away since.)
Chilli (Pref. Tabasco) Vodka
Bacardi Breezer/Smirnoff, just to relax and not have something too heavy.

But by far the most disgusting beer I have ever had was a Italian one from a Pizza resturant, it was mind-numbingly disgusting and what is even worse is that it had a alc. volume of 1%
:rolleyes: :eek:

[Legolam]

Inderjit, I totally agree with you on the snakebite thing, but go for snakebite black - cider, lager and blackcurrant. Mmmmm! Does make your vomit purple though, so don't drink that much!

Drinking's so much a part of culture that you're left out if you don't. It's part of socialising with your friends at the weekend and way of relaxing after a hard week of drinking ;). Seriously though, think how stressed the world would be if we couldn't let our hair down on a Friday night!

[Beleg]

Seriously though, think how stressed the world would be if we couldn't let our hair down on a Friday night!

That might only work for the western culture.

[Inderjit S]

Eugh. I am drunk now, and it is great. (Tomorrow morning of course will tell a diff. story) I spent 30 pound at my friends b-day she is turning 18 and im not feeling sick woo-hoo. Also like to add Blue aftershock to list of fave. drinks.

but go for snakebite black - cider, lager and blackcurrant

Thanks for the tip. The problem with Snake Bite is that a lot of pubs/bars I have been to don't do it.

[Wonko The Sane]

That Snakebite Black sounds sooo good. :) I leave for England in 6 days.
Snaga's already stocking up on the alcohol.
Hehe. He's gotta keep his little lusshie's blood alcohol content up or she might pass out! ;)

[Inderjit S]

That Snakebite Black sounds sooo good

Indeed it is, though very, very lethal, esp. if you take it down in one go. (If you are using strongbow cider it will be like 15% volum (Strongbow=9%ish+Beer) but if you use a weaker (and thus, IMO nicer tasting cider, it will get you less drunk. Generally, to avoid pukcing up you shouldn't have too much lager, but of course there is a LOT of lager in England. Enjoy your stay here.

[Wonko The Sane]

I'll try to order that at the pub...see what happens. :)

Mmm...I'm so excited to be of legal drinking age again.

[Snaga]

Snakebite & black is so wrong. Don't go there... Wonks... I expect you'll be hoping I'll hold your hair back??:(

[Wonko The Sane]

:) I WANT to try it!
Don't you dare stop me! :D
And yes, as my boyfriend, you HAVE to hold my hair back. It's a rule. I even think it's written down somewhere in some handbook or something. :D

[Legolam]

You guys should come up here for a weekend while Wonks is over! Snaga can hold my hair back too ;)

[Aulë]

Ah, so you're going off to England now, Miles? That's good :)
You better watch out, Snaga ;) Who knows what mayhem could take place if you combine the 2 Lushes and Alcohol. :D

PS, isn't your signature a tad long....and bright, Wonks?

[Lantarion]

Right I think we can end this drinking party here, what do you think? Because most of this page just yells "Sidetrack!!", and this is what the previous thread started to look like before it was deleted. Savvy? ;)

[Wonko The Sane]

Actually, the previous thread was not a Guild of the Periaur thread.
It was a general thread.

This one was approved by the guild leader to talk about alcohol, our feelings on it, and its repercussions etc.


Anyway, yes, Legolam, I'd LOVE to visit...and Aulë's probably right, we'd need LOADS of alcohol anytime Legolam and I were in the same place...;)

And my signature was approved by Beorn..ok? So stop it!!!

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Right I think we can end this drinking party here, what do you think? Because most of this page just yells "Sidetrack!!", and this is what the previous thread started to look like before it was deleted. Savvy? ;)

What do you mean?
We are staying on topic (regarding Alcohol), and I don't think this resembles spam in any way...

"drinking party"???
This isn't an RP thread...:rolleyes:
As Wonks said, we are discussing how alcohol effects people like our age.
Just a few posts back, we were even discussing alcohol in different cultures.

It annoys me how Mods can police legitimate threads like this, yet leave others which are far worse...

[Elbereth]

Don't worry about it Lanty....I'm keeping a close eye on my guild...even if it may not seem like I am. *Big Sister is watching*

If I think that it is coming close to spam...I will tell them to stop... And if you don't believe me...ask my members...they will tell you just how strict I am in here. :mad: :p ;)

[Lantarion]

Look, what I mean is that I don't want to see people discussing their alcohol consumption on a public thread, whether it is in the GoP or not. The thread was originally about whether alcohol is good or bad, why or why not etc.; so in that sense, Aulë, you have gone off-topic; and I don't appreciate the insinuative criticism regarding moderation on the forum either.
This is just what I think, but I'm not going to anything about it if Elbereth thinks it's ok (I have high faith in her perception of trouble :)). By all means, please continue.

[Snaga]

OK lets all take a hint and change the subject. Although, in passing Legolam, I'm pretty sure that holding your hair back is Shaun's job. Sorry.:p

Lets talk about Frodo's drunkeness instead. All that ruckus at the Prancing Pony was surely all down to his excessive alcohol consumption. Its all very well blaming the Ring for his trouble, but as far as I can see, he was just roaring drunk. And let that be a lesson to you all: if you get drunk, expect Bill Ferny to steal your ponies!

[Beleg]

Lol Snaga! But seriously, what's the thrill in getting drunk? Why are folks so fond of drinking?

[Wonko The Sane]

Originally posted by snaga1
OK lets all take a hint and change the subject. Although, in passing Legolam, I'm pretty sure that holding your hair back is Shaun's job. Sorry.:p

Lets talk about Frodo's drunkeness instead. All that ruckus at the Prancing Pony was surely all down to his excessive alcohol consumption. Its all very well blaming the Ring for his trouble, but as far as I can see, he was just roaring drunk. And let that be a lesson to you all: if you get drunk, expect Bill Ferny to steal your ponies!


Oh my....*shakes head*

You know, come to think of it, in the movie when Pippin sings and lets his mouth run away with him, that's kind of the same thing isn't it? I mean...it's just another reason why excessive alcohol can lead to trouble.
In the book Frodo's showing off in a drunken manner* and gets in trouble with the ring, in the movie it's cos Pippin's drunk that Frodo gets into trouble with the ring.

In my opinion, Hobbits can't hold their drink. And let that be a lesson to you all. ;)

*I almost typed "drunken manor" hehe...Frodo showing off in a large intoxicated house...hehe. :) Yes. A drunken manor...hehe.

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Beleg
Lol Snaga! But seriously, what's the thrill in getting drunk? Why are folks so fond of drinking?

I think it's because alcohol helps you get away from the stresses of the 'real world', and allows you to relax for a night. It just shows how this world is changing, where people have to escape from reality by doing it.
It also has a lot to do with image. To be drunk, is to be cool these days.

[Snaga]

It is definitely a form of stress release, and sometimes escapism. But I don't agree that its anything new, Aule. People have been getting drunk for a very long time.:)

[Wonko The Sane]

And let's remember that drinking in HUGE excess is NOT cool.
But occasionally going out with your friends and getting sloshed is...

I guess we shouldn't send the message that angering one's liver is a good thing to do...But at the same time it's a very prevalent social function, and also can denote a certain sense of status in social hierarchies.

But actually, aside from the escapist and the stress relief, it's a way to let your hair down too...which is different from stree-relief and escapism. A lot of people have tough school, jobs, family-life, etc. and even if they don't drink to forget it, or to make themselves feel better, it's just nice to go out with your friends and live a little...

Plus...drunk people are funny. :D

(Sometimes...)

[Legolam]

It's a very social thing to go out for a couple of drinks with some friends of an evening. The alcohol helps you relax and enjoy the night. Also, it's very difficult to go out and NOT drink, as everyone around you has a few less inhibitions, allowing them to enjoy the night more, and you feel very left out. So my alcohol consumption certainly has something to do with my peers, but it's mostly about being able to go out and have a good time with my friends after a long hard week of work (or, if the week's particularly bad, during a long, hard week of work!)

[DGoeij]

Absolutely true, if you can go out with friends who are able to control the amount of alcohol they drink, it's a very pleasant way to have some fun.

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Legolam
It's a very social thing to go out for a couple of drinks with some friends of an evening. The alcohol helps you relax and enjoy the night.

Yep...and the alcohol helps you improve your vomitting skills...:rolleyes: :D :p

[Legolam]

Not always. It's generally a bad night if that happens and the person in question learns a valuable lesson about restraint. Despite the evidence on this thread (and what Owly will try and tell you!), I rarely have more than two or three drinks if I go out, just enough to have fun.

[Ice Man]

sometimes, getting drunk is so fun :(

[Aulë]

Originally posted by Legolam
Not always. It's generally a bad night if that happens and the person in question learns a valuable lesson about restraint. Despite the evidence on this thread (and what Owly will try and tell you!), I rarely have more than two or three drinks if I go out, just enough to have fun.
Lies! All lies!
;)
And just last week you were saying how you were completely wasted just before you caught your plane back to Scottyland. :p
And E-miles shall be delivering a full report back to be about how many litres of alcohol you consume in a day. :D

[Legolam]

OK, I occasionally have a "big" night out but, I can assure you, these are few and hopefully very far between. For example, this weekend is my parents' 25th wedding anniversary and we're having a big ceilidh, so I expect I'll be drinking a fair amount. But I don't expect to get out of hand as I have learnt (through many hard lessons) how to drink responsibly

[Legolam]

Here's a question - when is an alcohol problem a problem? What's your definition of when it is time to stop or cut down?

[Aulë]

I guess that is when you need alcohol to get through the day. Sort of like a nicotine addiction; if you just have to get drunk.

[Legolam]

So not when you're drinking 40+ units a week and killing your liver, but aren't addicted? And what about if you drink under the recommended dose (21 units/ week for men, 14 for women) but you drink it all on a Friday night? And what about if you do something stupid most nights you drink a lot?

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Legolam
So not when you're drinking 40+ units a week and killing your liver, but aren't addicted? And what about if you drink under the recommended dose (21 units/ week for men, 14 for women) but you drink it all on a Friday night? And what about if you do something stupid most nights you drink a lot?

I hardly think it's possible to drink 40+ units without being or at least becoming addicted. But that's just a guess.
And the things you describe are IMHO alcoholics in the making. If you drink that much, you're definetely destroying your short-term memory and your liver. And possibly developing a alcohol habit that isn't easy to quit with.

I don't know about the stupid things. I know people very well capable of doing enormously stupid things while perfectly sober.:D

[Legolam]

Actually, it's pretty easy for women at least to go over the recommended level. Think about this scenario:

Have half a bottle of wine (3 glasses) with a meal = 4 units
Go round to a friend's and have 3 bottles of beer = 4.5 units
Go out to the pub for 5 hours and drink 4 pints/double spirits = 8 units
Total for the night = 16.5 units

That's drinking from around 7pm until 3am (so 8 hours), so it's not impossible. And I wouldn't consider anyone who spends their Friday night like this to be an "alcoholic in waiting".

And then add on when you have a wee glass of wine on Wednesday night after a hard day, a couple of pints down the pub with friends on Monday night, your Saturday afternoon "hair of the dog" hangover cure. You can see how you could easily get 30-40 units in a week. I guess my point is that drinking a lot doesn't make you an alcoholic, but not all alcoholics carry cheap cider and wander the streets.

[DGoeij]

That's not a very unlikely scenario, but would you do that every friday, 52 weeks a year? Consider that scenario one week and hardly any drinking the other. That really drops your average number again.
As far as I'm any expert, these averages aren't meant for short-term periods.

[jezz]

hey guys!
i'm an mk in germany and the thread caught my eye... i'm also new here.

i think i should tell you something about my experience with alcohol ( germany allows alcohol at 16...):

last year, i was at a birthday party - the b-day kid turned 18 and i was envited, as the party was behind my house and i knew the guy... i was a total outsider and didn't know anyyone else there, so i was pretty quiet. at about 10:00 pm, one guy got drunk because a girl wouldn't tell him if she would date him. we took his alcohol away, as he was alread drunk and his words were slurred... he was only 16 and already trying to drink his problems away.

my experience doesn't stop there - the b-day kid's dad(40 somthing) got drunk last fall and tried to kiss me - i was so terrified that i couldn't move... i'm now officially an anti-alcoholic and am still trying to work through the psycological harm - i didn't tell my parents about it, as i think they would blame me for it.

no, i do not think that alcohol is good - at least outside of medical uses.

[Aulë]

The use of alcohol depends on the person. It's sorta like a car- if a maniac is behind the whell, then it is a weapon of death, but if there's a conservative person driving, then the car is not dangerous. There are people like your friend's father who just can't cope with alcohol. But then there are other people who drink in moderation, and are fun to be around after a few beers. I know several people who are quite shy whilst sober, but are fun and outgoing after they've had a few drinks. Drinking to drown your sorrows or drinking in excess is a bad thing, and enevitably makes things worse for yourself and others- but when used correctly, it can be harmless and entertaining.

[greypilgrim]

I drink every day and I love it. Only Heineken of course, and not excessively.

[jezz]

well, i know that you haven't had such experiences, but that doesn't mean that alcohol isn't bad, even when you don't get totally stoned. getting a little drunk can still be bad, especially for your liver. i have met one person that was really entertaining when he was drunk, but he was making lots of perverse jokes and messing up the grill-fire. but one out of three is still less. and once you're drunk, who knows what you'll do? you could end up being the one to hurt a girl like me - and it could be worse.

[Elbereth]

My belief is that anything in excess is a bad thing. The best solution is moderation. If you drink responsibly and don't overdo it...it's fine. It is when you feel you have to drink all the time or in great quantities when things can go array (sp?).

[greypilgrim]

Yes, I've done stupid, harmful stuff while drunk and stoned. But things have changed, and now I am older and wiser (blahblahblah...).

I think drinking alcohol is okay, but I don't use it to lower my inhibitions or to get drunk.
I honestly am more easy-going when not drinking than when I am drinking. :) Rog is right, it depends alot on the person. When I drink too much, I fall asleep.

[jezz]

@ greypilgrim: older might be the case with all people, but not all (esp. men) get wiser as well. sorry, but i'm traumatized for life.

[Heathertoes]

Alcohol is a very good thing. It's just a shame everyone else is allowed it too.

[Inderjit S]

I think drinking alcohol is okay, but I don't use it to lower my inhibitions or to get drunk.

Indians are pretty heavy drinkers-in the average wedding we have three parties and thus three opportunities to get drunk. I generally like to get drunk, as being a bad dancer, it gives me an excuse. "Why was I dancing like a complete idiot-well I was on the Bacardi you see"-that being said, I usually hide under the tables when everyone gets up to dance.

I don't like drinking as much as before-for personal reasons, three of my uncles died because of alcohol and it is pretty off-putting, I have no real desire to drink, and it is pretty damn expensive, I remember spending £60 on drinks in a week once, during my friends birthday party, and I realised I was just wasting my money on ****. Plus £60 can get you a pair of Diesel Jeans.

[Lord Sauron]

I not going against anyone. But every time you drink it is still going to your liver no matter if its a little or alot.

[greypilgrim]

All reasons as to why excessive alcohol consumption is bad. :)

[Inderjit S]

I not going against anyone. But every time you drink it is still going to your liver no matter if its a little or alot

Just like eating junk foods can mess your body up too-eating junk food sometimes is o.k, but excessively is bad. Excessiveness of any kind is usually bad.

[greypilgrim]

Excessiveness of any kind is usually bad.
....true dat!

[aguthasil]

my opinion on alcohol, bad.

[Inderjit S]

Care to elaborate?

[jezz]

I not going against anyone. But every time you drink it is still going to your liver no matter if its a little or alot.

i quite aggree! just think: alcohol is a form of suicide! when you drik, you are slowly killing yourself.

[Lord Sauron]

To add on to that, Every time you countienu to drink a little more it is going to affect your body and make you become an acoholic

[jezz]

u r totally correct!

[Heathertoes]

To add on to that, Every time you countienu to drink a little more it is going to affect your body and make you become an acoholic
Has everone gone mad? What is the source of this indoctrination?
You do not become an alcoholic by drinking a little every now and again. Drinking alcohol is not a form of suicide. Drinking a glass of red wine every day is good for you - it lengthens life.
Tolkien drank like a fish, wrote the best book of all time and lived into his seventies. Quite a good role model, I think.

[greypilgrim]

I'd like to add that one can drink like an alcoholic, yet not be dependent on alcohol. :)

[Elbereth]

Ever notice that the ones who are so staunchly against alcohol are usually people who have never had a drop of alcohol in their life and are surrounded by people who have never had a drink in their life. How do they honestly know what they are talking about.

Now I drink on occasion...but I know how to drink in moderation and I rarely ever get drunk...I drink intellegently and like an adult. Which is the way one should enjoy alcoholic beverages...I never drink something to get anything out of it...I drink it to savor its unique tastes. I'm learning to be a connosieur of fine food and liquor. ;)

When it comes to other things...ex/drug, smoking...I learn about those by experiencing them vicariously through my friends since I do not partake of those things myself. I have seen first hand what weed and acid and coccaine and ecstacy does to a person. Nothing I really want to do personally...but I am not going to dictate to those people that what they are doing is wrong...I'm not their mother and who am I to say what is is best for them. I have said my opinion to them about why I won't do the drugs with them...and I do promote educating people of the consequences of their actions...but please...I think we should leave the preaching to church...and the scolding to the parents. And that is all I have to say about that.

[Legolam]

I like that last quote. Exactly how I feel about the topic!

[Lord Sauron]

I have drunken wine before but it was just a little and it did not do anything to me for years but there is all ways the chance that it could do something but it did not and I can see your point.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Why did I not find this thread sooner?

'Every drink you have slowly destroys your liver!'

Are you serious? As someone pointed out earlier- make sure you don't have any sweets either- fat cells will slowly but surely clog your arteries until you die of heart complications. Not to mention the horrors of carbohydrates!!! :eek: ;) Surely, I jest! Seriously though, as Elbe pointed out, red wine is a healthy drink! Take a look at this article, taken from http://www.red-wine-and-health.com/, which points out an interesting 'French paradox.'
Red Wine in Moderation Can
Have a Positive Effect on Health

Health Benefits of Red Wines: One to Two Glasses a Day

Plato may have been wiser than he knew when he said, "Nothing more excellent or valuable than wine was ever granted by the Gods to man." Those of us who have come to enjoy the variety and tastes that wine have to offer can now look to red wines for greater health benefits. Recent studies show that drinking one glass of red wine every day may have certain health benefits. Research indicates that moderate red wine consumption may help protect against certain cancers and heart disease, and can have a positive effect on cholesterol levels and blood pressure.

The French Paradox

The French seem to know something about the health benefits of red wine. In a study that compared French and German red wines, the French red wines delivered a greater health benefit due to their higher level of antioxidants. This may partially account for the "French paradox," where studies show that in areas of France where the diet is high in fat those who drink red wine with meals have a lower incidence of heart attack than other parts of the world. Due to vast differences in diets, the evidence is inconclusive, but experts believe that red wine contains certain compounds that help protect the heart. This has opened the door for other researchers to study the components in red wine that may be responsible for its health benefits.

Moderation is Key

The key to reaping the health benefits of red wine seems to be moderate consumption. Drinking one glass a day for women and up to two glasses a day for men may decrease the risk of heart disease, cancer and stroke. Excessive or binge drinking, however, doesn't produce the same benefits. In other words, when it comes to red wine: more is not better.

Healing Powers of Antioxidants

The compounds found in red wine that are responsible for its healing powers are antioxidants. Red wines contain several antioxidants beneficial to good health. Different antioxidants have different functions, but the key feature of all these antioxidants appears
to be one of protection and prevention of disease.Now I have aided my grandfather in the fabrication of many wines since my youth, so I'm especially in favor of the wine-making industry. As all others have pointed out- moderation is key. If your religion is against it, then it is best for you to stay away completely from alcohol. Even getting drunk is a fun treat- every once and a while, and one must be sure to know their limit, and how far beyond their limit they can extend.

I have drunken wine before but it was just a little and it did not do anything to me for years but there is all ways the chance that it could do something but it did not and I can see your point.Mon ami, I'm positive that the wine you drank will not have any repercussions for you in the future! :)

[Legolam]

Just to play devil's advocate for a while, I once had the fortune to speak to the original author of the paper that first said that red wine was good for you. Here's a rundown of the research -

First of all, one drunken evening in the summer, a group of Scottish doctors thought it would be a good wheeze to get funding to research drinking. So, they decided to measure the levels of anti-oxidants in their blood and various other things whilst they drank in their back gardens over the summer. However, being doctors, they like the finer things in life. So, they got lots of information on red wine, but not so many people wanted to drink beer, vodka or water all summer. So they didn't get as much info on these things and consequently found that red wine was excellent for the heart - big surprise!!

I should say that the findings have been validated by other studies, but I still think it's funny that the original research was so flawed jsut because a bunch of doctors wanted to drink red wine all summer!

[jezz]

well, everything used immoderately is bad 4 you. but one thing really bothers me: how many people have died of eating too much candy in comparison to those who have died because of liver sicknesses caused by too much consumption of alcohol??? way less! my great-grandpa died because he was an alcoholic!

[Heathertoes]

I find it odd that a country that is so fanatical in its opposition to alcohol and tobacco has such respect for guns - they can have a negative effect on health as well apparently.

[greypilgrim]

"If I had a million dollars, I'd buy a damn brewery and turn the planet into alcoholics." -eminem

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

well, everything used immoderately is bad 4 you. but one thing really bothers me: how many people have died of eating too much candy in comparison to those who have died because of liver sicknesses caused by too much consumption of alcohol??? way less! my great-grandpa died because he was an alcoholic!I guess you can ask all the people who die every year of heart attacks, disease, and diabetes. I think I heard those things are the number one killers of Americans...

[Lord Sauron]

They are but cigerets and achola is number 2

[Heathertoes]

Enough of this nonsense. I will shortly be heading to the Archway Tavern, off the Holloway Road. Please feel free to join me - I'll be the one wearing a grey hat and slowly dying of alcohol poisoning.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

They are but cigerets and achola is number 2
I hear misspelling is the number 3 killer... ;)

*runs away before he makes any more comments*

[Lord Sauron]

Well I can't help that i don't can't spell that great I miss letters on the keyboard alot of people do

[Lord Sauron]

plus to add on to that it is not christian like to critize people on what the can't do that great

[Elbereth]

OK, FOLKS....THAT'S ENOUGH!

I am going to make a rule and please follow it.

No preaching or silly bickering on this thread.

please understand that there are people of different backgrounds and they have a right to share a different opinions than you have...please respect that.

Thank you.

We're adults people...let's act like it.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

OK, FOLKS....THAT'S ENOUGH!

I am going to make a rule and please follow it.

No preaching or silly bickering on this thread.

please understand that there are people of different backgrounds and they have a right to share a different opinions than you have...please respect that.

Thank you.

We're adults people...let's act like it.I'm sorry. I love you Elbereth! *toasts to Elbereth's beauty*

[Lord Sauron]

I am sorry I should have not acted inmature