glamdring and orcrist

[ravenbrand]

im wondering does anyone know more about the origins of glamdring and orcrist. i know that glamdring belonged to turgon king of gondolin according to elrond in the hobbit but i cant seem to find anything else about them help me plzzzzzz!!!:(

[Celebthôl]

Forged in the First Age some time between c.I 126 and I 510
Rediscovered by Gandalf in May or June III 2941
Probably passed into the West 29 September III 3021
Origins: Forged in Gondolin for Turgon
Meaning: Given as 'Foe-hammer'1
Other Names: Beater, Foe-hammer


Of Glamdring's early history, we know almost nothing. From Elrond's words, we can say that it was forged some time in the second to fifth centuries of the First Age (the centuries when Gondolin existed), and that it was borne by Turgon (the only Elf to hold the title 'King of Gondolin'). After Gondolin was built, Turgon was in battle twice: at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and at the Fall of Gondolin. Glamdring was greatly feared by the Orcs even thousands of years later, so Turgon must have wielded it ferociously on both these occasions.

After Gondolin's Fall, Glamdring passed out of history or rumour for more than 6,000 years. The fact that it survived the War of Wrath, though, tells us that it must have left Beleriand before the end of the First Age, perhaps carried eastward by a band of Orcs2. More than that cannot be said, except that somehow, by the late Third Age, it had fallen into the hands of the three trolls called in The Hobbit Tom, Bert and Bill Huggins.

It was discovered in their troll-hoard by Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves as they travelled eastward on the Quest of Erebor, and claimed by Gandalf. After it was identified by Elrond, Gandalf wore it for eighty years. He had it with him when the White Council drove Sauron from Dol Guldur, and he bore it through the War of the Ring itself.

Famously, he used it to battle the Balrog at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, and it fell with him there into the abyss. Glamdring survived that fall3: Gandalf had it with him when he returned, and he bore it throughout the last days of the War of the Ring and beyond. We know that he still had the sword when he rode through Bree with the Travellers in October III 3019, but Tolkien doesn't mention it after that point. It seems safe to assume, though, that Gandalf was still wearing Glamdring, as he had for eighty years, when he boarded the White Ship at the end of the Third Age.

What Did Glamdring Look Like?

We know much less about Glamdring's appearance than its history. It is consistently described as 'white' (in The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm). When enemies were near it 'shone with a pale light' (ibid). In the same circumstances, the Elven-knife Sting glittered along its edges, but in Glamdring's case, the entire blade seems to have glowed. Finally, we know from The Hobbit that both Glamdring and its mate Orcrist had runed blades, giving at least their names.

Notes
1 Actually, the literal translation of glam is 'noise', not 'foe'. 'Foe-hammer' comes from glamhoth dring, 'noise-host hammer' - glamhoth is an Elvish term for Orcs.
2 This is only one possible way that Glamdring might have left Beleriand. It assumes that the sword was looted from the wreck of Gondolin, but it isn't easy to explain why it should have been carried into the east. Alternatively, it might have been rescued from the Fall of Gondolin by (say) Tuor, and taken eastward by the Elves. In this case, though, we would need to explain how it was lost a second time, and how Elrond (who was with the Exiles of Gondolin at the end of the First Age) had apparently forgotten about it.
3 If it is difficult to explain how Glamdring escaped destruction in the War of Wrath, its escape from the depths of Khazad-dûm is doubly puzzling. What details we have come from Gandalf's account in The Two Towers III V The White Rider. This makes it clear that Gandalf had somehow managed to hold onto Glamdring as he fell. As he fights the Balrog in the depths, he says that 'ever I hewed him', which means he must have had the sword with him.
Glamdring isn't mentioned again until long afterwards. Gandalf must have kept it as he climbed the Endless Stair, and perhaps used it in the Battle of the Peak to finally destroy Durin's Bane. What isn't clear, though is how it survived Gandalf's destruction and re-embodiment - he says explicitly 'naked I was sent back'. We have to imagine that it survived the ruin of Celebdil's peak, and was perhaps later recovered by Gwaihir.

Dates: Forged in the First Age some time between c.I 126 and I 510
Rediscovered by Thorin in May or June III 2941
Entombed1 with Thorin late III 2941
Origins: Forged in Gondolin
Meaning: 'Orc- (or Goblin-) cleaver'
Other Names: Biter, Goblin-cleaver

The sword of Thorin Oakenshield, discovered by him in a troll-hoard on his journey to Erebor, and buried with him after his death in the Battle of Five Armies.

1 Exactly what happened to Orcrist at Thorin's funeral isn't completely clear. The Hobbit tells us that the sword was placed by Thranduil 'upon his tomb', and that it 'gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached' (The Hobbit 18, The Return Journey). These quotes seem to suggest that Orcrist wasn't actually buried with Thorin, but instead just laid on his tomb.
In The Lord of the Rings, there's a suggestion that this may have changed. We are told there that Orcrist '...lay now upon the breast of Thorin...' (The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, The Ring Goes South). This seems to suggest that the sword was actually placed within Thorin's tomb, and not just placed on it, though this text is admittedly ambiguous.


hope it all helps

Celeb

[BlackCaptain]

I can't remember if I read it somewhere, but I thought I remember that it was the sword of some prince dude in Gondolin. Does anyone know what Glamdring's real history is?

[Anamatar IV]

Glamdring was Turgon, king of Gondolin's Sword.

This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore.

[BlackCaptain]

Ahh! I thought it was Turgon... Thank you! It's cool that Gandalf has the sword of one of the greatest Elves of all time!

[Eledhwen]

Of Orcrist, we know the following from The Hobbit:

Chapter: "A Short Rest": Elrond said "These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade."

Chapter: "Over Hill and Under Hill", the Dwarves are captured by the Goblins and interrogated. Thorin is called a liar, and "Also, he has not explained this!" He (the Goblin) held out the swrod which Thorin had worn, the sword hwich came from the Trolls' lair.
The Great Goblin gave a truly awful howl of rage when he looked at it, and all his soldiers gnashed their teeth, clashed their shields and stamped. They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fiar elves of Gondolin hunted them in teh hills or did battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist, Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter. They hated it and hated worse any one that carried it.

Celebthôl tells of Orcrist being laid to rest over the tomb of Thorin in his earlier post.

[Bucky]

This is only one possible way that Glamdring might have left Beleriand. It assumes that the sword was looted from the wreck of Gondolin,

It is hard to imagine that a sword from which the Goblins in the cave of the Great Goblin run in fear would be something that other Orcs would pick up & take, would it? So, I would expect that Tour & Company saved it.

but it isn't easy to explain why it should have been carried into the east.

Agreed.


Alternatively, it might have been rescued from the Fall of Gondolin by (say) Tuor, and taken eastward by the Elves.

Must've, but it's always difficult to explain how ALL the occupants of Beleriand got out of there when it sank after the War of Wrath."

In this case, though, we would need to explain how it was lost a second time,

Yup.One would assume an Orc attack, the Orcs were revolted by 'beater' (biter?) & tossed it in a cave somewhere, where Trolls found it I guess.

and how Elrond (who was with the Exiles of Gondolin at the end of the First Age) had apparently forgotten about it.

Actually, Elrond was not with the exiles. He & Elros were captured/kidnapped by the 'cruel servants of the sons of Feanor' & raised by Maglor, Son of Feanor, 'whose heart was sick with the burden of the dreadful Oath' & 'cherished them & love grew between them as little might be thought'.


3 If it is difficult to explain how Glamdring escaped destruction in the War of Wrath, its escape from the depths of Khazad-dûm is doubly puzzling. What details we have come from Gandalf's account in The Two Towers III V The White Rider. This makes it clear that Gandalf had somehow managed to hold onto Glamdring as he fell.

Must be as Gandalf could not have found it upon landing in the deep water that nearly froze him.

As he fights the Balrog in the depths, he says that 'ever I hewed him', which means he must have had the sword with him.
Glamdring isn't mentioned again until long afterwards. Gandalf must have kept it as he climbed the Endless Stair, and perhaps used it in the Battle of the Peak to finally destroy Durin's Bane.


I'm sure Gandalf used it' but it says he 'threw down his enemy who smote the side (of the mountain) in his ruin', so I don't think the sword killed him, but throwing him down on the moutainside did.


What isn't clear, though is how it survived Gandalf's destruction and re-embodiment - he says explicitly 'naked I was sent back'. We have to imagine that it survived the ruin of Celebdil's peak, and was perhaps later recovered by Gwaihir.


A sword can certainly lay next to a dead body, right?

[Eledhwen]

but it isn't easy to explain why it should have been carried into the east.Thousands of years passed. Wars and skirmishes, the drowning of Beleriand, and many things passed that went unrecorded, or the records were lost. This is always the way with history - big holes in the story. The life story of a sword, no matter how magnificent, would be wasted on a Troll as it spit-roasted the previous owner, who probably robbed it from a hoarde anyway.
A sword can certainly lay next to a dead body, right?Right; but Tolkien was very vague about the actual death-to-life process that Gandalf underwent. We can but speculate on how he retained Glamdring.

[Turgon]

It's also worth noting that Dramborleg, the Axe of Tuor, became a relic of the Kings of Numenor. It's possible that if Tuor and the Exiles did save these swords, then they too became relics of the Numenoreans and found their way eastwards in that manner. Maybe being in the possession of some noble house during the wars against Angmar - tra-la-la.

More than likely though they were taken by great-great-grandfather Huggins during the Fall of Gondolin. Trolls obviously had no aversion to the swords, else why would they be found in a troll-hoard? Your average Troll probably liked his loot as much as your average orc.

My main problem with Tuor taking the swords is Turgon. Why would Turgon not be wielding his sword when he fell? A king who has decided to burn with his city is not likely to just give his sword away I think.

[Sidhe]

Ok this is just a thought so feel free to douse me in honey and set light to me. Surely he was sent back and his weapon and staff retrieved, after all they would not of been far from where he fell and Gwahir and Gandalf would have been no doubt keen to retrieve them. And lets not forget if naked he would have lost the ring of fire Narya. A ring of power left in such a place? I doubt it.

On the other hand the Valar/Eru could have just sent him back naked apart from his weapons. Me I'd feel naked with just a sword, staff and an Elven ring, and an invisible one at that.

[Alcuin]

Gandalf said he chased the Balrog up the Endless Stairs hewing at it from behind with Glamdring as he went. The sword must have lain near his body after the Balrog was destroyed. Gwaihir almost certainly left it behind when he was sent for Gandalf, and returned later to get the sword.

I am under the impression that Glamdring and Orcrist were mated swords: that is, they were made as a pair. I think this practice was not uncommon during the Middle Ages for particularly wealthy, powerful nobleman such as kings: if one blade was broken, he could use the other with very little interference to his style of fighting, since they were almost identical.

Turgon is said to have died when the Tower of the King, the largest (or at least, tallest) building in the city, collapsed upon him in the Fall of Gondolin. Assuming that he had Glamdring with him at the time, the fact that the sword survived is pretty remarkable.

[Burzum]

Is there no information about who possessed Orcrist in Gondolin? I think it might have been Ecthelion, since he is said to have lost his sword during the battle (and thus had to kill Gothmog with the spike on his helm).

[Bucky]

Surely he was sent back and his weapon and staff retrieved, after all they would not of been far from where he fell and Gwahir and Gandalf would have been no doubt keen to retrieve them. And lets not forget if naked he would have lost the ring of fire Narya. A ring of power left in such a place? I doubt it.

On the other hand the Valar/Eru could have just sent him back naked apart from his weapons. Me I'd feel naked with just a sword

Well, I think 'naked I was sent back' refers to Gandalf's spiritual person, not his physical body....

Did his physical body somehow gets 'poofed' over to Mandos from atop that mountain? I doubt that, so his body is lying there dead with the Ring still on his finger & the sword, which he indeed carried up the Endless Stair, somewhere nearby. As far as the staff, perhaps he carried that too, but maybe he made a new one?
That however, presents more problems as making new staffs might not be that easy - they seem to be presented by Tolkien as symbols of a wizard's power, not easily replaced. Look at Saruman's staff being broken by Gandalf.

[kms81]

I always read "naked, I was sent back" as being sent back stripped of his physical form; his spirit going to Mandos, and then being sent back to re-occupy his body.

As to the question of the Orcs taking Glamdring from the ruins of Gondolin, while they certainly feared it when it was being wielded by an enemy, that doesn't mean they'd necessarily be too scared to loot an obviously valuable object from a corpse.

[Galin]

I know some would rather not know what the author himself said about his work, and would rather interpret the story as it stands, but for any who are interested Tolkien did comment on this in a draft letter: 'Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest.' JRRT, 1954, draft letter 156

Tolkien also stated (same letter) that Gandalf was not sent back by the Valar -- implying it was rather Eru, the 'Authority', as the wizard had passed out of time itself.

[Alcuin]

Tolkien also stated ... that Gandalf was not sent back by the Valar -- implying it was rather Eru, the 'Authority', as the wizard had passed out of time itself.I had forgotten that. I think it implies a failure on the part even of the Valar, and a special Grace on the part of Eru toward Elves, but especially toward Men in Middle-earth in particular, for whom there was no escape into the West.

As for who owned or possessed Orcrist, since it was the mate of Glamdring, both would have been the possessions of Turgon of Gondolin. Again, mated swords are expensive items. It would defeat the whole purpose of going to the time, trouble, and expense of having two swords made as nearly alike as possible so that the owner would never be without a familiar blade if the spare were loaned out or assigned to someone else to damage or break.

As an aside, I think it is worth considering whether Narsil might have been the mate of Aranrúth. For Thingol, a pair of mated swords might have been a matter of life or death for many of his folk in time of war; but in first millennium Númenor, such considerations would have been merely historical contemplation, making Narsil a worthy gift for Tar-Elendil to have bestowed upon his grandson Valandil, first Lord of Andúnië. Narsil was constructed by Telchar of Nogrod; who made Aranrúth and where?