Common Quenya course!

[Húrin Thalion]

Hello and welcome!

Elennainie, Elenaelin and I, Elen Carnë have thought of starting a joint Quenya course based on Ardalambions course. Our chief aim is to learn Quenya, get to know each other and have fun, everyone is welcome. To start with you who wish to join (free for all) can download the course and start writing your suggestions on how we are going to do it. Write here or PM any of us with questions. Our pace will not be too great for we have all a little lack of time (me excepted).

Elen

[Elennainie]

...And your name doesn't even have to start with "Elen" to participate!! ;) The link to the course you can download is: www.ardalambion.com The course was written by H.K. Fauskanger. It looks pretty intense :eek: so we'll probably try it for a week or two and see how it goes!

[Mithlond]

I began learning the course about a year ago, i think i only completed the first lesson (if that).
I wouldn't mind learning with you guys, so i guess you can count me in.

I think the reason for me abandoning the lessons is because i didnt have anyone to learn with, so i think this group thing will be a great idea if thought out well.

[Húrin Thalion]

Welcome aboard Mithlond! We are thankful for suggestions on how to do this both from people in and out of the course. Elenaenie has got a suggestion for a translation game which sounds excellent but I'll leave it to her to present it.

Elen

[Mithlond]

Yes that sounds good, we'll certainly need to make some fun and enjoyable excercises to keep us going, as it will get quite difficult the further we get into it.

[gate7ole]

Like Mithlond, I too started to learn the language, but without company such difficult tasks are soon abandoned.
So, I would definitely want to join your effort.
My suggestions:
I've read a few chapters and after the preliminary chapter about pronounciation, comes the grammar. Also a few words (10) every chapter are given.
We can arrange this course as this:
For every chapter, we should read it alone (unfortunately reading can't be done with others, especially when they are far away). We could give a 5-day period for the reading, which is enough taking into account that the chapters aren't long. Then there will be a period of practice, where we discuss on-line (maybe at appointed hours) about whayt we've learned. E.g, if the subject is the plural, someone may ask the plural of a word and whoever wants will answer it. When our vocabulary is more extended, we may try to write short phrases and the others will translate. By this way, we will practice all together. This can be given a whole week (or more for difficult chapters). Then there will be examinations for everyone who wants (with books closed;) )These exams will take the next 2 days. So the whole procedure will take 2 weeks/chapter.
Many things can be added in my proposed schedule, e.g. Elen's game. If we are eager to learn, I think we will find some ways to make the courses interesting.
Any comments?

[Mithlond]

Sounds good gate7ole, discussion, questions etc. is what will be needed after each chapter reading, allowing for what was learnt in that lesson to sink into our heads better.

[Lhunithiliel]

Just give me a couple of days to look through the course and I'll post my suggestions :)
After all , I am a foreign language teacher! ;)

But you can count me in, anyway!
Here, I'll show you what I've done from my earlier LONELY attempts to learn Elvish:
Mae Govannen !
Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.
Cuio nin mellon!
Namarie!
:D
In the Common language:
Well met!
A star shines on the hour of our meeting.
Live and be a friend to me!
Farewell!

It will be so nice to know that I'm not alone in my "crazy" learning of an ancient and extinct language :)

[Hirila]

Why does everyone want to learn Quenya?
Isn't Quneya the "dead" language of ME? Only spoken by those elves that live in Valinor and of course by those in ME who have a connection to the older ages. So Elrond and his people usually spoke Sindarin, but also knew Quenya, as of course Aragorn did. But I doubt wether Legolas knew Quenya. He was a Green-Elf, so it is also unsure wether he really had Sindarin for his mother-tongue. For wasn't this spoken in Beleriand?
I'm also pretty sure (though I might be mistaken) that Bilbo and Frodo only spoke Sindarin, not Quenya.
It is like Latin: noone speaks it. I'd rather learn Italian, or Sindarin.

[Húrin Thalion]

First I'd like to say how nice it is that so many are interested in the course. I cannot open the course yet but tomorrow I'll get some expert (read: someone who knows anything about computers more than writing)
help.

The reason we study Quenya is, well to begin with I have found no Sindar webcourse. And wouldn't you prefer to learn the solemn and more advanced language?

Elen

[Mithlond]

It would be nice to learn Sindarin, and yes i would also choose it over Quenya. But as Elen Carnë has pointed out, there isnt any Sindarin course available on the internet to study from.

[Hirila]

But you can find words in Sindarin and grammar on Ardalambion. I tried to write them all out and also the grammar, like conjugation and such. It is much work and I stopped doing it when I noticed I began neglecting my studies. But it is possible to learn Sindarin. Though, yes, it is more difficult because there is no course.

And what would I want with a language noone can understand. I would want to learn a language that lives. The problem is I think that Tolkien spent more time on Queny because it is the original, the high-elven speech. Poor old Sindarin was forgotten. *sniff* ;)

[gate7ole]

I've read that Sindarin is much too complicated. Quenya is easier to learn. Also Tolkien gave us more info about this language, while the Sindarin has many gaps. Finally, I would prefer to learn the high language, the most perfect created by Tolkien.
For the above reasons, Quenya is more suitable, I think, for this course.

[Elennainie]

Then there will be examinations for everyone who wants (with books closed )These exams will take the next 2 days. So the whole procedure will take 2 weeks/chapter.
I like gate7ole's (o.k., I just have to ask...I can't stand it any longer...what does that name mean?!?:confused: ) well thought-out plan for the course. I think 2 weeks a chapter is the perfect length. Like I said, this course looks pretty intense, and for people who don't have alot of time, 2 weeks is a fair minimum allowance.
Then there will be a period of practice, where we discuss on-line (maybe at appointed hours) about whayt we've learned. E.g, if the subject is the plural, someone may ask the plural of a word and whoever wants will answer it. When our vocabulary is more extended, we may try to write short phrases and the others will translate. By this way, we will practice all together. This can be given a whole week (or more for difficult chapters).
We can take turns being the "leader" for a chapter and decide what form the online discussion/practice should take. There are exercises included at the end of each chapter in the course, which could be used as the tests to help us learn. I think an appointed time for the discussion is necessary. What is a good time and day for everyone? Friday nights and Sunday nights are good for me.

Why does everyone want to learn Quenya?
I think the words are more beautiful, and it's more like Latin, which I know a little about. Also, like everybody else has said...there's a course already made up for QUenyan! :p

My idea for the game was very simple: Someone starts by posting a **SIMPLE** QUenyan sentence (i.e. less than 5 words). The next person must translate it and give a new sentence using at least one of the words used in the previous sentence. That way, we'll learn through repetition. Let's agree to only use verbs in the present tense for the game, until we get further along in the course.

As soon as we have all our study group members, let's start with the introduction chapter. And, as a treat until then, check out: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/pronlo/sounds/quenya-stress.wav You can hear the correct pronunciation of Quenyan, which will be really helpful when we get to chapter one! :D

I'm so glad we have such a great group!!!:D :D Hooray!

[Elennainie]

Did anyone like the .wav files? I think it's so cool to actually hear someone speaking Quenya aloud.

The game begins:

Lomelinde laurea lira lire.

The first o has an accent, the end e in lomelinde has dots, the end e in laurea has dots, the end a in lira has an accent, and the end e in lire has an accent. Whew!

(I can't figure out how to get the little dots and accents over the vowels, and we'll definitely need this for the quenya course. :( Apparently some keyboards have these keys on them. Does anyone know how to do it if you don't have a special keyboard? Mine is the standard American type. Thanks!!)

[Húrin Thalion]

Okay I thought of starting the course (reading time) sometime this weekend, when depends on if we have figured out how we are going to do it. It seems to me Gate7oles idea together with a translation course as Elenainie sugested would be the best that we have got. You can all say what you like but if anyone does not want to add anything I'll start it (as said) on friday 15 00 Swedish time wich is 6 o clock in the Morning for you at the eastern American coast. I'll put up a link (or try to) in the members announcments today. It's wonderful that we have got such an interest in the studyng an already in a fictive world almost extinct language.

Elen

[Mithlond]

Elennainie, the way i get the special characters with the accents and the dots and all that, is by using the character map program that comes with windows. You'll find the shortcut in your start menu under program files -> accessories -> system -> character map.

If you dont have it there you will most likely need to install it, which can be done from within windows itself or downloaded from the internet.

[Elennainie]

Cool! Thank you so much Mithlond. :D :D I have been trying to figure that out for forever!!!! Now I can finally write my own name correctly -- Elennainië. :)

[Mithlond]

Glad to be of service. :)

[Húrin Thalion]

Elenainie's phrase begins with: Golden evensong. I'll post it here again as it seems to have passed unnoticed!:mad:

Lomelinde laurea lira lire.

Now do what I could not and translate the last part!

E.C

[gate7ole]

Wait a moment!
I didn't realize that the translation-game had started. I think it is too early. I don't know a single elvish word. I thought we would play this game along with the courses. That means we would use only words learned thus far. I don't know if anyone of you has already some knowledge with the Quenya, but this may discourage people like me.

Elen, please start the courses as soon as possible, so that we will start getting involved with the whole project.

P.S. One suggestion: that we skip the first chapter of pronunciation. This chapter is long and a bit boring, and isn't appropriate with the scheme of reading-discussing-examining. We may directly go to the first real chapter: Lesson two: Nouns, plural, article.

[Húrin Thalion]

I am ready to start the course as soon as you all are. The problem was that I haven't been able to sownload it until today but for me it's okay to start it now. If there are no protests on the way we read it you can start reading and the next weekend we'll go through with Gate7ole's idea. The game was started a little bit early when we couldn't solve the phrase but we'll keep on as we learn more words.

Elen

[Elennainie]

I don't know if anyone of you has already some knowledge with the Quenya, but this may discourage people like me.

I don't have pre-existing knowledge of Quenya. I'm a beginner jsut like you! I just looked up words and quick grammar to make a sentence for the game. We can hold off on the game if you want, that's fine.

The translation was: The golden nightingale (literally, taken as two words "evensong")sings a song. Good job on the first part, E.C.

What does everybody else think about skipping the pronounciation? Sometimes it helps to know how to pronounce it aloud, when you want to learn a language, even if we'll only be typing in it. Some people learn through hearing and speaking aloud, rather than through just writing. Besides, it is a beautiful language to speak aloud. I definitely think we should read the introduction chapter before chapter two. We could spend less time - like a half a week on it. What do you all think?

[Húrin Thalion]

I don't think we should skip it but maybe we could take that chapter last so that we got started with our vocabulary first. Anyway I think it's good we start it now so that we'll have more time to read.

E.C

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Elen Carnë
I don't think we should skip it but maybe we could take that chapter last so that we got started with our vocabulary first. Anyway I think it's good we start it now so that we'll have more time to read.

E.C

Right, I agree that postponing the pronounciation chapter for a while is the best solution.
Elen, since you are the founder of this course, announce the beginning of the reading of our 1st lesson and determine its duration. It would be better if more people learned about it (outside the guild), in case they want to join. So, we could also announce it at the Members Announcements or put a link to our signature.

[Lhunithiliel]

I'm IN!
Whenever you say !

But I still haven't had the time to look through the course entirely...
However, I'll join the "chapter-by-chapter" - lessons :) This order will make me study :D

And even if we omit the "Pronunciation"-chapter, I still will look it through. I have always wanted to HEAR this language! What I heard from that link a few posts earlier was exciting.......although performed in the most boring voice I've ever heard! :D :D

But, as you suggest, let's start with the essence.

I am, however, a bit "lost" :confused:

Well, we read the chapter....... Then we do the translation of some phrases..... We deffinitely have to have a "Lecturing Professior" for each chapter - the one to direct the course and check the knowledge and assign homeworks....

Who is this for the chapter about nouns?

[Elennainie]

Gate7ole I think should be the "lecturing professor" for Chapter 2, since it was his idea to start with this chapter and he has probably already looked it over. What do you say, GAte7ole?

I too, am going to read the pronunciation chapter, as well as the introduction chapter, on my own. The introduction chapter has some important things in it. Fausklanger says skip at your own risk, but I will abide by the common consensus of what you guys have chosen. :) For those who don't choose to read it, you aren't missing much in the copyright section, but it is interesting to learn that there are several version of Quenya. Tolkien was constantly revising the language, and spelling of the words would change. The Quenya we are learning is the one exemplified in LotR. The introduction also talks about where to place the diaeresis (little dots), and what the accent over the vowels means. It also tells the sources Fausklanger is using for the course - i.e. the Namarie, the Etymologies, etc. So, there's a little summary for you! ;)

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Elennainie
Gate7ole I think should be the "lecturing professor" for Chapter 2, since it was his idea to start with this chapter and he has probably already looked it over. What do you say, GAte7ole?

OK, I will try to be the first "professor" although it's not clear to me what I'll have to do. Lhunithiliel aren't you teaching? Could you PM me with some advice?

[Lhunithiliel]

My dear class-mates ;), check this out:
fonts (http://www.gis.net/~dansmith/fonts/tengwar.htm)

So, today we should start our first lesson, shouldn't we?! :D

Ready? Notebooks? Pencils?

Good luck to us all ! :D

I hope in a couple of months we will be able to open a thread where we shall post in Quenya!

[Lhunithiliel]

I have read the "Noun" chapter and the text up to it.

IMO, if we start from nouns we will be wrong.
Any language should be picked up starting first from its historical etc. backround, then the alphabet, then we can start with nouns.
So, here we can :
either read the backgrounds each for oneself
or assign this o a "Lecturing Professor"

Besides, I think we should learn the cases one by one in all the four numbers existing.
This + a lot of excercises and a case can be well understood.

:rolleyes: :cool:

[gate7ole]

Well, I believe that the order of the course should not be altered. This course was conducted by a philologist, who knows better than us how a foreign language can be studied. Any change from our part must consider it.
I have read the Lesson 2 (with which we intend to start), and IMO it is the perfect start. It gives us the first rules of the language that refer to some basic functions, as the plural and the article. Without this knowledge, I can’t imagine how we would continue to other parts of the language. Besides, which is the most natural way to approach a language? By learning some nouns, some words that mean things we know and understand.
Finally, I disagree with Lhunithiliel’s approach to start from the history of the language etc. This must be done after we have learned the language. And the alphabet used is the well known latin alphabet. I strongly advice us to follow the course which was made by an expert.

P.S. Elen Carné had announced that the lessons would start this weekend. Where is she?

[Elennainie]

P.S. Elen Carné had announced that the lessons would start this weekend. Where is she?
He...(I know, the name sounds like a girl's name, but E.C. is really a guy) said he was getting a new computer, so maybe he's had problems getting it hooked up or something. :eek: Anyway, I'm sure he'll be back soon. He did seem very excited about this course.

IMO, if we start from nouns we will be wrong. Any language should be picked up starting first from its historical etc. backround, then the alphabet, then we can start with nouns.
So, here we can : either read the backgrounds each for oneself
or assign this o a "Lecturing Professor"
I've already stated my opinion about doing the intro. and chapt. 1 -- I agree with Lhun. that historical background, alphabet (i.e. where to put the accents and stress and diaresis, and which consonants Quenya uses and where they fall in the word, etc.) is important, but since one of our small group is strongly opposed and since we really need to get some momentum going, I suggest we just read the intro. and chapt. 1 on our own, each for oneself. I've already read them and will print out chapt. 2 tonight and study it.
Besides, I think we should learn the cases one by one in all the four numbers existing.
Since I haven't yet read chapt. 2, I'm not sure what this refers to yet. Let's try the way the existing course is written and if it doesn't seem to work, let's be open to changing it.

I await Gate7ole's instructions for exercises & online practice for chapter 2.
P.S. You still didn't tell me what your name means, Gate7ole. Enlighten me!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Elennainie
[B You still didn't tell me what your name means, Gate7ole. Enlighten me! [/B]

Oh, if you only knew how many timesI have bothered him about the same ;) :) :D :D :D

As he keeps his secret, I finally decided it has to do sth. with the 7 gates of Gondolin.... Am I close gate7ole?

[Húrin Thalion]

Oh you must forgive me for being away from the net a few days, Chello had a little reorganization but I hope it is ok for you. Of course you can start reading despite my little misfortune with the computer (see post were I write that i am computer blind). I have not yet read much of the course since we have a theme week in school but it'll slow down after that so I may learn it all before friday. By the way, are there any specific time for the lesson, Gate7ole?

Namarië Elen

[gate7ole]

The mysteries...
They should better be left unknown.
Look how wisely Tolkien filled his world with unsolved mysteries!

About the course.
Let the reading time start. It will last until Thursday and on Friday I will provide a summary.

P.S. Should we start a separate thread for each lesson?

[Elennainie]

I just finished reading chapter 2 and I have to say I AM SO EXCITED!!! :D :) to be doing this course with you guys!!! It's so cool to be learning the vocabulary words like Isil and tari and then hook it up with some name like Isildur which you already knew. And the vocab. is all pretty words - not like in Latin where you first learn the words for war and farmer and rampart :mad: . Instead it's "willow" and "moon" and "maiden" ;) :p - oh I JUST LOVE IT!!!! Learning QUenya is going to help us so much in our understanding of LotR and Sil. etc. Anyone else feel the same??

[Calimehtar]

Hey everyone! I was just beginning to read about Quenya and was going to learn it and a friend said you were doing this... is it too late for me to join???

And if you are ahead of Chapter 2 or anything I will try to catch up! please reply a.s.a.p.

THANKS:D

[Calimehtar]

Some one just showed me some sites, one was an English to Quenya Translator. It helped me... might you. I looked up a few common words such as Friend, Elf, Sea, Tree, and Land. Umm, heres the link:
Translator (http://www.quenya.tripod.com/translator.htm)

Friend = -ndil
Elf = quende
Sea = ear
Tree = alda
orne
Land = -ndor
nor - Not Sea
nore - Persons Land

I hope those sites help. ;)

[gate7ole]

BilbosBane welcome to our guild and our course. Don't worry, we haven't started yet. Now it is the reading time of the Lesson 2, which means everyone who hasn't read this first lesson of our course will have to do it by Friday. Then, I'll post a summary and we will begin.

[Elennainie]

Welcome BilbosBane!! :D :) Glad to have you on board!

You will learn another word for "elf" in lesson two. It is "Elda", the name Orome gave the elves, rather than "Quendi" the name the elves gave to themselves. "Elda" is the more commonly used word for elf in everyday speech, according to our esteemed teacher Fausklanger! I don't know how reliable those electronic auto translators are, but you won't even need it now 'cause you'll be an EXPERT Quenya speaker!! ;)

[Elennainie]

By the way, are there any specific time for the lesson, Gate7ole? posted by E.C.

Would someone please respond to this question? Bilbosbane and I would also like to know. Is there a specific time we will all be "meeting" on Friday to start discussion lesson two? It's Thanksgiving in the U.S., so I'm open to any reasonable (i.e. when I'm awake) hour that day. Thanks.

[gate7ole]

If we decide that the lessons will be on real time, then there will be some problems with time. Whatever decision is taken, some people will be disatisfied. As I see it, we can split the world in three regions (Western, Middle, Eastern) and not all three of them can be simultaneously satisfied. Furthermore, I don't know when each one has access to the web. Some have at school or work, which means morning hours for them, others at home, which means evening hours. How can all of them be taken into accound and reach a certain time?
There is always the option of doing these lessons with the usual way. Someone posts, another answers at some time etc. We can make some rules, e.g. put some order. I think I decline to this option. By this way, everyone will participate at his/her convenient time.
If this is unacceptable by you, then my best guess for a suitable time will be 23:00 GMT. This will put the useless 01-08 time period to the Pacific region (Hawaii, I'm sorry). But then again someone may not be free at that time and why shouldn't he/she have the same oppotunity?

What's the opinion of all you will paticipate? What are your convenient hours?

[Calimehtar]

OK well... what if everyone says there best time to be on and what time zone they are in, then the people who have the same time periods to be on, can come up with their on session where they can be on at the same time and talk. That way most people will be able to get their answers up front. What do all of you think about it?

[Calimehtar]

I was also wondering if there would be a seperate Thread for every Lesson or something like that.

And for those of you that live in the United States... I can get on this Friday at any time of the day (Central Time Zone). But for the rest of the Fridays, because of school, I will get on from around 3:00 - 5:00 (central t.z.) or something like that. And if that won't work for you, we can arrange something.


Thanks:D
Cody

[Lhunithiliel]

Please, don't laugh ......
But why do I get the impression that I am reading something ELSE!:confused: :eek: :eek:

Please, someone, be kind and post the link to the course once again?

[Elennainie]

It's www.ardalambion.com . Then go to Quenya and "course". :)

But why do I get the impression that I am reading something ELSE! Errr...Lhun., I don't get it!:o

I guess this time thing is really hard to coordinate internationally, as Gate7ole said.

Maybe we could just do the specific time real time chat thing for extra practice, with people in similar time zones. We could try AOL messenger or something. I don't have it yet but I could get on it.

But for the rest of the Fridays, because of school, I will get on from around 3:00 - 5:00 (central t.z.) or something like that. And if that won't work for you, we can arrange something. Best time for me is Friday night -- United States Eastern time zone, like 8:00 pm or later. I'm not home until after 6:00 pm. I could also do Sundays, pretty much anytime. I can be in your group, Bilbosbane, if you can possibly get on a little later on Friday nights, or on Sundays some time.

[Calimehtar]

Yes, I can get on anytime on Saturdays and Sundays. And Fridays, I can get on later. Is Eastern time ahead of Central 1 hr. or behind us 1 hr? (And AOL IM is free, and my screen name is: CodyT8083)

Gate7Ole - I am not meaning break up the group, I am just saying that me and whoever else can try to get on at the same time so we can get answers replied quickly. Ellainnie (sp?) said it better I think, the thing I am wanting to do is just kind of for an extra credit type thing... help me learn it better/faster.
Ellainnie - Just PM or Post your screen name when you get it.


Thanks!
Cody -BilbosBane

[Elennainie]

Gate7Ole - I am not meaning break up the group,
I didn't get the impression that you were trying to break up the group with your suggestion, Bilbosbane. It's so small anyway...weird since I've seen so many people come on the forum for the first time saying "I want to learn Elvish!" !!! Anyway, if there are concerns about the IM/ time zone groups, lets just focus primarily on the forum thread without worrying about a specific meeting time. Those that want to IM for extra practice can just work it out amongst themselves. Gate7ole, a.k.a. he-who-wishes-his-name-to-remain-a-mystery, ;) I'm looking forward to your lesson!

P.S.
Bilbosbane, I PM'ed you with my AOL IM name. Is Friday at 8:00 pm Eastern standard time good for you? That would be 7:00 pm your time, I believe. Anybody else who wants extra practice by instant messaging with us, you are most welcome!! Elen Carne, is Sweden asleep then or awake? :)

[Lhunithiliel]

I WAS reading the RIGHT THING! Thanks anyway!!!

Now, as about the meeting..Mind it that Elen, Gate7ole and I are all from Europe. Which means, that when it is 8:00 p.m. in the USA, it is about 2:00 a.m.! How much coffee should I have drunk as to stay awake at this hour? ;) :D

Beides, AOL works for the USA only. I have the MSN.

[Mithlond]

Me being from Australia, im about a day ahead of the USA, well..i think about 14 or so hours ahead. SO we'll have to work something out there. :)

[Húrin Thalion]

I'm sorry all Sweden is sleeping by that time...

I think I am 6 or 8 hours before the eastern coast U.S.A. GMT +1 Iis my time. I have only got msn and my adress is: mansw@hotmail.com if ypu wanna add me. I'm ready all Swedish afternoon which should be 06 00-10 00 a.m for you. So I think we'll let Gate7ole (what DOES it mean) decide if an online lesson is possible to do. Soon I will have more time for TTF, both French, maths and English tests coming upand the week after biology.:(

See you soon/Elen

[Elennainie]

I think we have ditched the idea of trying to meet all together at the same time for the main lesson. It just doesn't work out. How much coffee should I have drunk as to stay awake at this hour? Noone wants to be online at 2 am! :eek:


The following is just about optional extra practice:

Why don't you folks in Europe: Elen Carne, Gate7ole, and Lhunithiel, try to do extra practice together on yahoo instant messenger?

Mithlond, is 10:00 Sat. morning your time a good time for you? That's fourteen hours ahead of eastern U.S.A. If so, you could join Bilbosbane and I for extra practice at 8:00 pm Friday night our time. I'd be glad to get Yahoo IM instead of AOL IM, if only Yahoo works in Australia. :)

[Calimehtar]

Yes, I can get Yahoo Messenger.


Now, it's FRIDAY AT LAST! YAY! Who is going to start the word game... I'll go ahead and post a phrase:

mine lie nu mine Anur ar Isil


Question below that holds the answer to that... so don't read this if you want to find the answer yourself:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
One people under one (the)Sun and (the)Moon.

So would that sentence make sense even though Anur and Isil mean THE Sun and THE Moon??? Or would I have to make the sentence:
Mine lie nu Anur ar Isil
Then it would be: One people under the Sun and the Moon.

[Nóm]

I am going to download the course and will be joining you guys.

[Elennainie]

Terrific, Nom, glad to have you here! :)

In case you missed it, like I did, there is a new thread for our first lesson, posted by Gate7ole.

Double yay! I've been looking forward to this all week, too! :D

Rats, I got your sentence wrong because I keep getting aran (king) and Anar (sun) confused. :mad:

Imo, your sentence still makes sense like this: mine lie nu mine Anur ar Isil and would mean "one people under one sun and moon", without the "the".

P.S. I think it is Anar instead of Anur. I don't mean to be picky, but I would appreciate anyone correcting me on my mistakes. That'll help us learn better. ;)

My sentence is:

I vendë ar i roccor nu tasari












The answer is:
The maidens and the horses under the willows.

[Húrin Thalion]

Hello all and welcome Bilbosbane and Nóm, I cannot rightly express how glad I am to have you here. I have now solved the exercises in lesson 2 and I will now start participating in our lovely phrase game:

I think that Elenainnie's phrase means: The maidens and the horses under the willows.

I do not wish to seem picky either but vendë becomes vendi in plural I think.

Now to my phrase to which I will not post the answer below, if you happened to look there unintentionally that'd ruin the game for you.:(

"Alcarinqua atani aran." Not sure if the order of the words is correct but this one is difficult since it requires words we have not studied yet. Moreover the first word is in the first chapter which we have not studied. So I can only say Good luck!

Elen

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by BilbosBane
So would that sentence make sense even though Anur and Isil mean THE Sun and THE Moon??? Or would I have to make the sentence:
Mine lie nu Anur ar Isil
Then it would be: One people under the Sun and the Moon. [/B]
OK, here none is an expert in Quenya, so whatever we say isn't necessarily the truth but just our opinion.
I think that "mine" cannot be used with either Anar or Isil, because they are used as proper names. Like in english one couldn't say "one people on one Earth". The Sun is unique in Arda, thus the phrase should be said without the "mine".

As for the phrase "Alcarinqua atani aran.", it probably means:
Glorious man king
or something like this.
But Elen you're rushing. I can't know if this is an appropriate way of joining adjectives with nouns. If you also don't know and just guessing, I think it would be better if we were using grammar already learnt to avoid making mistakes.

(I can't think of a phrase. My grammar is too limited)

[Elennainie]

I do not wish to seem picky either but vendë becomes vendi in plural I think.
:o You're absolutely correct, E.C., thanks for keeping me straight! ;)

Here's another sentence to keep the game going:
Minë rocco nu i tasari, nu Isil

[Calimehtar]

Minë rocco nu i tasari, nu Isil
One horse under the willow, under the Moon.

[Húrin Thalion]

Ok everybosy I think we have expended all our vocabulary now so let's wait till we have studied the next chapter.

Let the reading commence!

Húrin Thalion

By the way, I got Yahoo instant messenger yesterday, my name is elencarne if you want to add me.

[gate7ole]

Good. We should keep a fast pace at least at the first chapters that are easy.

And since I don't see great participation, please solve my exercises so that I want feel an unsuccessful professor.:(

[Húrin Thalion]

Is there anyone who has the time and will to be the "professor" for chapter 2? I could steal a little time to make a summary and some exercises but my maths profeesor would be thankful if I concentrated on my geometry test at friday. I would recommend using Gate7ole's lesson as model for the next lessons.

And G7O don't be worried, I'll try to solve some and I am sure that some people have solved them without posting! You have made very good exercises and a summary for which we are eternally grateful.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Ok everybosy I think we have expended all our vocabulary now so let's wait till we have studied the next chapter. Let the reading commence!
So, am I correct that we have now started to read lesson 3, the dual plural? If so, I'll be glad to be the "professor" for that lesson, so your geometry professor doesn't get mad at you! ;) I'll post the summary and exercises on Friday. I like the idea of keeping the days of the week for posting the summary/exercises consistent. And I'd be glad to follow G7o's excellent lead.

Mithlond and Lhunithiel and Nom, we miss you guys!

[Húrin Thalion]

If so, I'll be glad to be the "professor" for that lesson, so your geometry professor doesn't get mad at you!

Oh goosd for me. Thanks Elenainnie!

Húrin Thalion

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys, I need your help in something.

When you're using those special characters (letters)(Tengwar - are they?) in writing out the words, on the display of my PC I get some strange combination of latin and cyrillic alphabets and I just CAN'T read, neither understand what is witten. What am I to do?

Gate7ole, I, being a foreign languge teacher myself, must say that you impressed me greatly with the way you presented the material from your lecture! Excellent job!!!!!

Elennainie, I wish you success with the next lecture!

As for my participation, please, excuse me for not having posted any answer so far.... but with the above problem.... I just don't know what I'm reading :confused:

[gate7ole]

by Lhunithiliel
When you're using those special characters (letters)(Tengwar - are they?) in writing out the words, on the display of my PC I get some strange combination of latin and cyrillic alphabets and I just CAN'T read, neither understand what is witten. What am I to do?
I think that you mean characters like ä, é, í… They are just vowels with an accent. Tengwar is completely different (symbols that don’t look like the latin alphabet at all).
Assuming that you have Internet Explorer, try View->Encoding->Western European.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! What a relief! Now it works!

Thank you!!! :D

[Zale]

Can I join your course please? I already have a basic grounding in Quenya, but I'd like to reacquaint myself with it & generally add polish.

[Húrin Thalion]

Welcome to the course Zale. We have now studied lesson two at Ardalmbion's course to which there is a link earlier in this thread. Right now it is reading time for lesson three.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Can I join your course please? I already have a basic grounding in Quenya, but I'd like to reacquaint myself with it & generally add polish. Hi Zale, welcome to the course! :) I believe we are all beginners here. You might want to check out Gate7ole's summary and exercises for lesson two (thread calls it lesson one, because it's our first lesson. We skipped the intro. and lesson one.) We mainly try to stick to using only the vocabulary learned in the lessons so far, with a few exceptions. We are taking turns being the "professor" for each lesson. I'll post the summary and exercises for lesson three on a new thread on Friday.

As for my participation, please, excuse me for not having posted any answer so far.... but with the above problem.... I just don't know what I'm reading Glad to know you are still with us, Lhun.! :)

[Elennainie]

BTW, Lhun. and anyone else who's interested in tengwar fonts for your computer, here are some: http://www.gis.net/~dansmith/fonts/tengwar.htm

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you Elennainie! Very much!

I have to admit I am a very bad student :( :o :o

But I am sooooooooooo busy! Of course, this is NOt a sensible excuse, I know.

Now, here is sth. you ALL, please, are invited to think on:

We need two beautiful names for the Hall of Lectures and the Hall of Seminars in Quenya.

Could you suggest sth. nice?

[Elennainie]

Here are some suggestions, Lhun.:

tarquesta - high speech (acc. to Nole Parma Lambeo)
arta - exalted, lofty (acc. to ardalambion)
rond - vaulted or arched roof or large hall or chamber so roofed (acc. to Sil. appendix; doesn't say if it's Quenyan or Sindarin)

"Rond Tarquestaiva" - Hall of High Speech?
(I don't know how to do of in quenya yet. My total guess was "-aiva" Does someone else know?)

or just "Rond Tarquesta"
or "Tarquestarond" - High Speech Hall

I don't know, though. The words don't seem beautiful put together in those combinations. Scratch all that, how about just "Tarquesta"?

[gate7ole]

by Elennainie
I don't know how to do of in quenya yet. My total guess was "-aiva" Does someone else know?
Somewhere at the Chapter 2, it is said that the preposition of is formed in Quenya by adding the ending -on to the word. (Like Silmarilli-on).
However I don’t know what happens to the final vowels. My best guess is that it replaces the –a and the word becomes tarqueston.
So, the title could be:
Rond tarqueston
Hall of high Speech.

[Húrin Thalion]

Ok, all time for the new lesson. Lesson three reading time have now commenced and the next lesson will be posted on thursday or friday, whatever suits the professor best. If you are volunteers to be the new professor just post it here. Please say so before sunday.

I would also like the remaining exercise to be solved by someone that can do so. I thank gate7ole and Elenainnie for taking the burden of professorship.

Húrin Thalion

[Húrin Thalion]

Too bad, I just tried to post my own version of Namarië but it was not a valid attachment. Anyway those who want it may just email me at Mansw@hotmail.com

I can also read in the vocabulary for each chapter adn send round, as I come from Sweden I have benefits in the pronounciation area, Swedish, Finnish and Quenya are pronounced in the same way.

Húrin Thalion

PS I also have msn messenger and you can send files easier over that, just ask me to.

[Elennainie]

I'd love to see your translation of Namarie, Hurin. You have my email. ;)

[Húrin Thalion]

Oh it is not a translation, I am not good enough for that. I have just read it into my microphone on the computer.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

O.K. we finally have adjectives and at least we have the verb "to be", so let's get this game started again! :D

I vendi vanyë nar nu i tasari, nu calima Anar.

Who's next?....

[Húrin Thalion]

The fair maidens are under the willows, under the bright sun.

I assume that I am correct and continue immediately:

Neldë mori ciryar nu i aiwi carni (red).

[gate7ole]

Húrin Thalion's sentence:
Three black ships under the red birds.

Mine:
I úmea ulundo ná firin nu taura Elda.
(ulundo=beast)

[Elennainie]

The evil beast is dead under the mighty elf. (edit: I guess this would "an elf", since it doesn't have "i")

Carni peu ar ninqui rancu (of) i saila tári.


P.S. Is anyone else starting to think in Quenya? I was thinking of the word treasure the other day and "harma" popped into my head! :p

[gate7ole]

A pair of red lips and a pair of white arms of the wise queen.

i vanya vendë ar i ninquë aiwë nu alta aldo.

[Mithlond]

Sorry to break the flow of things here, i just need to say a few things.

It's really good to see you guys taking this so seriously, and im sorry i havent been able to participate with you all in the course as of yet.
I get a week's holiday from Christmas to the New Year, and i hope to read up on the course and try and catch up to you lot so i can participate.

Time is always against me, but i hope to change that!

[Elennainie]

Great to see you back in the course, Mithlond. The first three chapters aren't difficult, so i'm sure you'll be caught up in no time! :)

[gate7ole]

I would like to ask from all the fellow-students of Quenya to post here any ideas about the course and not at the threads of the lessons, for obvious reasons.

[Calimehtar]

I was thinking we should try to have our lessons in the Languages of Middle Earth Forum. (And have the moderators or whoever could, move our previous lesson threads there.) It's not as crowded there and stuff. But, that's just my opinion.

By the way, this is "BilbosBane", I had the webmaster change my name.

[elvish-queen]

This is the best idea anyone's had on this forum!!
Please tell me how far you are, so I can try to catch up??
EQ :p

[Calimehtar]

Go to www.ardalambion.com for the course. The language is called Quenya, there should be a link to the courses on that site. We skipped the first Lesson of Lesson A. We just finished Lesson 5 on Lesson A. You will need to read Lesson 2,3, and 4. Post any Qs you have.

[Elennainie]

Welcome elvish-queen! We're about to have our first test, on the first four lessons, but of course you needn't feel obligated to take the test if you don't feel ready. We take turns being professor for each lesson and sometimes IM each other for practice, which is fun!

I was thinking we should try to have our lessons in the Languages of Middle Earth Forum. (And have the moderators or whoever could, move our previous lesson threads there.) It's not as crowded there and stuff. But, that's just my opinion.
I believe Gate7ole is asking a mod to condense our existing 4 lesson threads into one, to save space. I like keeping the quenya course in the Guild of Tolk. since it was our idea to have it, and it shows that our guild is making a positive contribution to the forum as a whole. We are "hosting" the course for everybody this way! :)

[gate7ole]

OK, it’s time to organize our little test. Since there is no other way, we must prepare these tests ourselves. Everyone must write ten sentences in Quenya and ten in English. These sentences must cover the majority of the rules we have learned so far. Then I will ask someone outside the course to head the test. We will PM him/her with our sentences and s/he will independently test us. The details will be posted later.

The test will be held in a week, maybe next Wednesday. Everyone who wants to participate must post here by the end of the week. The aid in creating the tests is not compulsory but desirable.

[Elennainie]

Count me in! I've already made several sentences for the exam and will work on the rest. Each sentence has plurals, articles, adjectives, verbs, superlatives, stem variation nouns, etc. In short I tried to make every sentence contain most of the stuff we've learned so far. Wednesday sounds great for the test.

Let me know to whom to send the sentences, when you find someone. Perhaps Lhunithiel would be willing?

[Elennainie]

O.K., all my sentences are ready. And I believe Calimehtar is working on his as well. Did you find someone to administer the test for us G7o? If not, we could ask our guild fellows.

[Calimehtar]

Just wondering if anyone was going to post the Key to the Lesson 4 Excercises...:confused:

[Húrin Thalion]

Hello all, I've cme back to you now! I ahve studied as amny lessons as I should now despite ferocious christmas celebrations (or rather, being to lazy to do anything as serious as quenya). I hope you haven't missed me yoo much, I promise I'll be better at following the course from now on. I'll make twenty sentences for a test.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Welcome back! Of course we missed you.

I'm working on a poem in Quenya. I hope you guys will look it over for me and tell me your thoughts.

[gate7ole]

Welcome back Húrin Thalion, I was about to PM you.

It seems that the four of us will do the test. Everyone should prepare the 20 sentences by Tuesday and send PM them to Lhun.
Does anybody have a problem with Wednesday? Although we may have a problem that the test must be on-line. My idea is that we may ask from Lhun to PM everyone his/her test (probably different for everyone), and then each one of us will open the message ONLY when s/he is ready to do the test and write the answers without consulting anything at all. Then s/he can post the test and the answers at this thread.

And Elennaine, you will definitely share your poem with us. After all this is our intention. To write verses in Quenya some time.

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
Hello all, I've come back to you now....... ...at the turn of the tide .... in Gandalf's words in the movie :D

[Húrin Thalion]

Yea I know Lhun! I jsut couldn't fight myself at that one, had to play movie Gandalf, but it is only because I like the actor Ian Mckellen. Forgive a Tolkienfan.


Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Does anybody have a problem with Wednesday? Although we may have a problem that the test must be on-line. My idea is that we may ask from Lhun to PM everyone his/her test (probably different for everyone), and then each one of us will open the message ONLY when s/he is ready to do the test and write the answers without consulting anything at all. Then s/he can post the test and the answers at this thread.
I'll PM mine to Lhun. today. Thanks so much, Lhun. for helping us out!!! :)

So, am I correct that we each will be answering a different 20 questions, like I'll answer Gate7ole's and he'll answer Calimehtar's, etc., instead of answering all 80 questions? 80 is too much, imo. Also, does it matter what time of day we do the test? I'm guessing it does not. If it does matter, I can't do it until after work. After we post our test answers, who will correct us? I'm guessing we will each give the correct answers for the sentences that we made, rather than Lhun. correcting us. Is this correct? See you guys in class on Wednesday. Don't forget your pencils! ;)


And Elennaine, you will definitely share your poem with us. After all this is our intention. To write verses in Quenya some time. Thanks, Gate7ole!

[Calimehtar]

I am sorry but I will not be taking part in the tests.

[Elennainie]

:( Let us know if there's anything we can do to help. Please reconsider.

[Lhunithiliel]

******It's bright early morning and the Quenya class are all gathered and deepened into matters of the ancient lore.

The silence is then broken suddenly. A herald runs in and they all can see he's come from afar.

"Greetings!", the herald cries in the Common tongue. "I bring you a notice from the Steward.
She wanted you to know that she will attend your "Quenya - competition" tonight!
The first noble Quenya Schollar is to come out on the arena at 9:00 p.m. (time as it is in the small realm of the Steward - Bulgaria, Europe)"

Oh! What a stir and unquiet then settles in the Hall! The young schollars get so excited with the news that they almost forget about the messenger...
Then the young schollar, whom they call Gate7ole, turns to him and says: "Thank you for the good news! Tell the Steward we will be there! You may go now to our halls of rest and make your stay pleasant. You will find everything you need. "

And the herald leaves.... ********

[Lhunithiliel]

********
The arena is set - tidied and decorated....and FULL of people all around... Loremasters, schollars, aprrentices... common people... They have all come to witness the Great Quenya Language Contest at the Guild of Tolkienology!

There is a small white tent right in the middle. A white standard rises there on the top and on it shines the sea-blue colors of the coat of arms of the Guild.

Then... from one of the side entrances enters a tiny slender maiden. Elennainie! She is the first to take the risk of the Contest.
Elennainie reaches the tent and stays. She turns to the West and lifts her face, searching for somebody....

There, right at the western side of the white tent, up on a platform, richly decorated and with lots of banners and standards, there stands a great chair - all wood-carved and in blue and silver. It is still empty and Elennainie gets a bit worried...

But there she comes - the Steward. She sits herself comfortably in the chair and looks at Elennainie. Stern is her face, yet Elennainie can see the smile and the kindness in her eyes. Then the Steward smiles and says:
"So, you, my fair Lady is the first to step out on the arena! We are all proud of you and the whole Guild now wishes you the best luck in your endeavour!"

Then Elennainie notices a white scroll in the Steward's right hand. ... A moment of silence falls ....and then the Steward rises and hands over the scroll to Elennainie. She smiles at her again and adds softly "Good luck!"

Elennainie enteres the tent.

The Contest has started!

[Elennainie]

Taking the quill and dipping it into the emerald ink, Elennainie begins to write her answers upon the scroll. She delights in the chance to be learning so fair a language with her guildmates! :) She finishes, rechecks her answers, and leaves the tent. She makes her way through the crowd and, kneeling, presents her scroll to the Steward in her great chair. Relieved, she takes her seat next to the Steward, and awaits the turns of her classmates.

Good luck, my friends!

[Húrin Thalion]

BNow you must once more explain something to me, I know I am being ignorant (foolish, stupid, dumb whatever you like to call it). Anyway I have not yet ubnderstood this about the tests, were you going to send it to us in PM's, since my inbox was full I couldn't get it sorry.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Send Lhun. a PM, then she will PM you the test questions. You'll have an hour to do the test and PM it back. :)

[gate7ole]

gate7ole enters the classroom. It is empty. He didn't show up at the appointed time for the test and begs for forgiveness from his classmates and especially the professor Lhunithiliel.
Humbly, he asks if he can have the test since he was studying all the week for it.

[Elennainie]

Oh, we forgive you! ;) When will we know how we did?

Calimehtar, I noticed you are going to start a quenya course in the Guild of Elves. I wish you and your guildmembers success in your undertaking, but I wonder why have you deserted us? We are only four now, so the loss of one is a big loss. I am dismayed, especially after helping you with your sentences and extra practice on IM. What happened?

[Calimehtar]

Oh, we aren't sure if we are doing that. Some think they should just read up on the lessons and try to catch up with us here. And if we did start in the Guild of Elves, I would still be learning here more than there. (Because I'd have to wait a while for them to catch up.) There I would just help them get it organized and answer some questions for the first few lessons that I know.

Don't worry, I haven't deserted you!:D

[Elennainie]

Don't worry, I haven't deserted you!

Very glad to hear it!

[Elennainie]

While we are waiting for our test results, let's go ahead and start the reading of Lesson 5: Past tense. I'll post a summary and exercises by Sunday, the 12th, unless anyone else would like to be the professor for that chapter.

[Calimehtar]

I'll take a shot at being professor next time if no one else wants to.

BTW, Elen... when you were helping that person on the Aorist tense... how did you know that? Have you read that far??

[Elennainie]

Terrific! You are officially the professor for Lesson 5, Calimehtar. Please try to post your summary by Sunday. About the Aorist tense, I just looked ahead to that chapter to see if I could understand her question and help. No, I'm not ahead. I'm in the same place as the rest of us - starting lesson 5.

[Calimehtar]

Well, I was actually meaning the lesson after you. Let me read the lesson. (I'll do it right now, I have time.) So I can see if I understand it real good and I'll post either later tonight or asap tomorrow.

Thanks,
Cali'

PS. I JUST SAW WHAT ITS ON! PAST TENSE

(EDIT) OK, I have read a little over the half the lesson, and up to this point I understand it PERFECTLY! (IT HELPS WHEN YOU WRITE IT AND TAKE NOTES ON IT!) Anyways, I will be the Professor of this lesson. And I should be able to post the lesson tomorrow if I wanted to, but I will wait til Friday or Sunday, whichever all of you prefer. Elen. PM me once you have read the lesson, or any of you. I would like to send you my summary before I post it and see if there is anything you think should be added or erased. Though, I think I have done a good job.

Some irregular forms will be discussed in later lessons, but even so, we will here survey certain "alternative" past tense formations (contrasting them with the more regular forms may actually be helpful in memorizing the normal system – but the student is not expected to memorize this survey as such). So do skim through as much as you can take of the stuff below, and proceed to the exercises when you've had enough.
So, do you want me to take notes on all that follows that quote? That is on the bottom of page 3 and top of page 4. Please respond soon so I know whether I need to take notes on it or not.

-Cali'

[gate7ole]

gate7ole's plea for having the test is accepted.
He takes the scroll and writes down the answers. The first are easy. Then a difficult one makes him put the pen down and think over a minute. Then with better confidence, he finishes the test. He delivers the scroll to the professor and sits down to his desk, anxiosuly waiting the results.

[Húrin Thalion]

Last of all the door is quitely opened and a cold and soaked figure comes in, goes to his admired Professor and says a few words. Apparently he, too, is aksking for forgiveness for his grave mistake of not showing up at the appointed time. The professor, says something and nods at the back row were he seats himself and extracts from his backpack his quill, ink and seal and is thereby ready to start the test.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Elen. brings a steaming mug of hot cider to Hurin and quietly places it on his desk, so as not to disturb his test-taking. She brings a mug for gate7ole and Calimehtar as well, and they discuss the test in hushed voices while they wait for their classmate to finish. All are anxiously awaiting the results...

[Lhunithiliel]

There now sit the Steward (no hot cider for her :( ) and Elennainie and soon they are approached by gate7ole, who hads over his scroll and takes his steaming mug. He sighs with relief and pauses in silence.

Hurin is anxcious! When will the Steward give him the test as well?!!!!

She smiles at him gently, "Your turn will come young schollar! Be patient!... And good luck to you, too!"

Then she turns to the seated by her side. "Excellent work! Let's wait for Hurin and tomorrow I'll present the tests to the attention of all! Enjoy now your hot cider..... or whatever you have there in your mugs (cause I don't have it ;) )

[Húrin Thalion]

Húrin quickly recognizes his possibility to at least apologize for his late coming in some way and hands the Steward his cup of hot cider. ;) (I have gone to school, how do you think I got my grades?;).

Anyway my SO (Society class) teacher was a little angry at me for choosing to study "Some silly invented, phony language instead of writing that thing about the Industrial revolution. But that's only becasue she dislikes me because I make her insecure in her position as a teacher as she don't like "children" that knows the course or come with suggestions. Anyway, she forgave me when I said that I wrote it last week during my christmas vacations and that I if she needed to know had it with me to that lesson.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

So sorry Professor Lhun, here are some cakes to make it up! I did not mean to forget you! :( Bad Elennainie!

She wrings her hands, hoping this catastrophe will not result in a failing grade...

Ah..and here are some presents, and look, some gold...and...um... two servants, and a horse, and .... ;)

[Húrin Thalion]

You don't want to know what we call such people at school... ;)

Anyway Húrin thinks a while writes for a while and then he raises, puts his seal on the scroll and not without a triumphant glance handles it to his Professor, bows and then seats himself with the other students. In the conversation he says that he tohught the Professor's surprise was the hardest ones, he coould only do half the sentences.

Húrin Thalion

[Elennainie]

Yay we are all done with the test now! The bell rings for recess and everybody runs outside to play, now that the rain has stopped.

[Lhunithiliel]

NOW.... you're calling me a "Professor" !
NOW.... you're giving me presents!......."

The Stweard's voice is as cold and sharp as an Elvish blade.....
Elennainie looks horrified, Hurin opens his mouth to say something but he sees two burning eyes piercing his and ....he stays silent. Gate7ole rises his head and MOST surprised lookes at the Steward.....

A second.....
Two....

And then Lhun bursts into a laughter so clear and ringing as the spring waters of the forest streams.

"Oh! Come now! How could you even think I could be bad with you ?!? Come, I have prepared warm and cosy beds for you. Have rest and enjoy the singing of the nightingales in my gardens. You will see your works displayed tomorrow.
Farewell now!"

[gate7ole]

gate7ole stands up and marched to the door behind the professor. He will find it very hard to wait until the results tomorrow.
He farewells the remaining students (if there is anyone left inside) and exits the room.
Until tomorrow... goodbye.

[Elennainie]

Not me...I'm stayin' riiiiiiiiiiight here - cozy beds AND nightingales (lomelindi)! Yay! Elen. breaks out the marshmallows to roast by the fire and puts on her bunny slippers. Toasted marshmallow, anyone?

[Calimehtar]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some irregular forms will be discussed in later lessons, but even so, we will here survey certain "alternative" past tense formations (contrasting them with the more regular forms may actually be helpful in memorizing the normal system – but the student is not expected to memorize this survey as such). So do skim through as much as you can take of the stuff below, and proceed to the exercises when you've had enough.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, do you want me to take notes on all that follows that quote? That is on the bottom of page 3 and top of page 4. Please respond soon so I know whether I need to take notes on it or not.

[Lhunithiliel]

The morning is bright and the air is clear.
Trumpets sound and there the arena fills with lots and lots of people again. At the place where yesterday a tent stood, now there is a white table. On it lie three scrolls.

The TESTS!

TEST # 1 (Elennainie)

FIRST PART:

From English to Quenya:

1. The two women (sisters) ate.
2. The most beautiful maiden is reading a thick book.
3. A pair of red birds is singing under the mountain.
4. Under a stone a dead bird is lying.
5. The wisest woman is reading a thick book
6. One man and the queen.
7. The three maidens are laughing under the greatest willow.
8. The wisest maidens are guarding the evil queen.
9. Two white horses are lying under a tree.
10. The gate was big.

Elennainie's translation:

1. I atta nissi (sisters) mátëar. (we don't know past tense yet, so "matear" is "are eating" really.)
2. I anvanya vendë cendëa tuica parma.
3. Carni aiwet lindëar nu i oron.
4. Nu sar firin aiwë caitëa.
5. I assaila nís cendëa tiuca parma.
6. Minë nér ar i tári.
7. I neldë vendi lálëar nu i antaura tasar.
8. I assailë vendi tírar i úmëa tári.
9. I ando ná alta. ("ná" = is; we don't know "was" yet.)

SECOND PART:

From Quenya to English:

1. I úmië neri mápar i andu.
2. I roccor nu i tasari ná ninque.
3. Ninqui rancu mápëar i vanya elda.
4. Neldë Naucor caitëar firini
5. I ohtari nar nu i andu alta.
6. Aiwë tíra atta ciryar (with its) hendu.
7. I Elda tultëa atta taurë roccor.
8. Elendil voronda (byname, the faithful) ná vanya.
9. I neldë tiucë naucor tultëar i lië nu i tasari.
10. Ranco mápëa ancalima harma ar i saila vendë tíra. (harma = treasure)

Elennainie's translation:

1. The evil men are seizing the pair of gates/double gates.
2. The horse under the willows is white. (roccor should be rocco, singular, to agree with na and ninque)
3. A white pair of arms is seizing the fair/beautiful elf.
4. Three dwarves are lying dead.
5. The warriors are under the great/big gate.
6. A bird is watching two ships (with its) (pair of) eyes.
7. The Elf is summoning two mighty horses.
8. Elendil the Faithful is beautiful.
9. The three fat dwarves are summoning the people under the willows.
10. An arm is seizing the brightest treasure and the wise maiden is watching.

The Steward's task:

Translate into Quenya:
1. Greetings! We welcome you!
2. The Hall of Lectures opens on…
3. The light from the Blessed Realms is shining over our Halls.

Elennainie's translation (her best try :) )

1. Aiya (hail, as a greeting) no word in quenya for welcome
2. Mardë tarquestaron? pantëa or...
3. Cálë Amanwa cálëa or mardilma.

[Lhunithiliel]

TEST # 2 (GATE7OLE)

FIRST PART:

1. Four mighty Elves are seizing the black ships under the bright Sun.
-> Canta taurë Eldar mápëar I mori ciryar nú calima Anar.

2. One man and the queen.
-> Minë nér ar i tári.

3. A pair of trees are laughing and are singing (in the wind). (in the wind = surinen)
-> Aldu lálëar ar lindëar surinen

4. Three Dwarves are eating and two Elves are singing.
-> Neldë Naucor mátar ar atta Eldar lindëar

5. Oromλ is summoning the elves (to Valinor). (leave “to Valinor” in English)
-> Oromë tultëar Eldar (to Valinor).

6. The (pair of) eyes are beautiful
-> Hendu nar vanyë.

7. The three kings and two queens are under the trees.
-> I neldë arani ar atta tári nar nú i aldar.

8. The Ainur are singing.
-> Ainur lindëar.

9. The most evil men are dead under the Moon
-> I anúmië neri nar firini nú Isil.

10. Mighty elves are wise
-> Taurë Eldar nar sailë.

SECOND PART:

1. I Rancu ar i hendu.
-> The (pair of) arms and the (pair of eyes).
2. I nís ná saila.

-> The woman is wise.
3. I alta oron ná ninquë ar i tasari nar mori.
-> The great mountain is white and the willows are black.

4. Lúthien na vanya, nan (but) Mathilda na anvanya.
-> Lúthien is beautiful, but Mathilda is the most beautiful.

5. Minë aiwë lindëa nu i tasari, nu Isil.
-> One bird is singing under the willow, under the Moon.

6. I aran Thingol ar canta naucor.
-> The king Thingol and four Dwarves.

7. Mori hendu tírar i canta anvanyë nisi.
-> A pair of black eyes are seeing the four most beautiful women.

8. I talami ná alta.
-> The floors are great

9. Úmië roccor mátar carni aldar.
-> Evil horses are eating red trees.

10. Canta níssi lálëar nú i analtë aldar.
->. Four women are laughing under the most great trees.

Gate7ole also wrote:

Sentences 7,8,10 have errors.
Here are the correct ones:
7. Mori hendu tírar i canta anvanyë nissi.
8. I talami nar alta.
10. Canta nissi lálëar nú i analtë aldar. ;)

The steward's task:

Translate into Quenya:

1. Farewell, my friends! Let the stars of Elbereth guide you!
2. The victory is near.
3. The Valar are with us.

Not done. :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

TEST # 3 (Hurin)

FIRST PART:

1. High elves are fair and mighty.
=Eldar nar vanyë sailati.

2. Two women are watching and one man is seizing the greatest stones.
=Atta níssi ná tira minë nér mapëa i alta sardi.

3. A pair of horses are lying (on) the biggest mountain.
= Atta roccor ná caitëar i alta oronti.

4. The black beasts are dead.
= I morë ulundi ná firini.

5. The King is summoning the people and the Queen is watching the maidens.
= I aran ná tultëa

6. The seven dwarves lie beneath the mountains.
= I (seven) naucor caitëa nu i oronti.

7. The Moon is summoning two white maidens.
= I isil ná tultëa i atta vendi.

8. The fair ships are blue.
= I vanyë ciryar ná luin.

9. Eärendil is the brightest (star). (star = elen)
= Eärendil ná i elen ancalimë.

10. Three mighty kings are seizing a people.
=Neldë arani ná mapëar minë lie.

SECOND PART
1. I assaila aran cendëa carnë parma ar i tári tultëa i vanyë vendi.
= The wise king reads a red book and the queen summons the fair maidens.

2. Minë elen carnë.
=One red star.

3. I mori sardi caitëar nu i antaura oron.
=The black stone lies under the mightiest mountain.

4. Canta vendi anvanyë.
= Four maidens are the fairest.

5. I lië tíra calima Anar.
=The people watches the bright sun.

6. Atta ninqui ciryar nar i morë aiwë.
= Two white ships are black birds.

7. Nís tíra ar atta aiwi lálëar
= The woman is watching and two birds are laughing.

8. I tiuca Nauco máta nú i tasar
=The (?) dwarf eats in the forest.

9. Caitëa (on) i talan nar carnë parma, ninquë sar, ar i anvanye aiwet.
= On the floor there is lying: a red book, a white stone and the fairest bird.

10. Minë nís lálëa ar tultëa atta úmië tárir nu i tiucë aldar.
= One women laughs and summons two evil queens under the (?) trees.


The Steward's task:

Hurin's best try :)

1. The Black Gate is opening!
=I morë ando ná (?)

2. The Dark Lord is upon us!
I morë aran (not correct but close) ná (?) (?).

3. Oh! Illuvatar! The Nazgul are in the air!
Ai! Illuvatar! I Nazgul ná (?) (?)

[gate7ole]

Errors I found:

To myself!
In many times, I wrote nú instead of the correct nu. I probably confused it with ná.
Also I wrote "Oromë tultëar Eldar" instead of the correct "Oromë tultëa Eldar"

To Húrin Thalion:
There were several errors.
Some general comments:
1. The translation of verbs like “is eating” isn’t “ná máta”, but simply “máta”. “Is” shouldn’t be translated with the copula “ná”.
2. Be careful that noun, verb and adjective agree in number. For example
“I vanyë ciryar ná luin.” Should be changed to “I vanyë ciryar nar luini.”
3. Why didn’t you translate the word “and” in the sentences? There is no reason for this.
4. Be careful to translate the definite article (i) but not to use one if there is not the i in the sentence.

In general, you have understood how to create plurals and present tenses (only one error found tira should be tíra), but you seem to confuse the agreement in the number. And remember “eats” and “is eating” is the same thing in Quenya.


To Elennainie:
No Errors found! Impressive. Great job.

My great thanks to the Steward and my class-mates. I’ll see you on Sunday’s new lesson.

[Elennainie]

Refreshed from a delightful stay in a snug bed, and having been sung to sleep by nightingales, Elen. skips over to the white table to read the scrolls. She waves to gate7ole as he leaves the arena, and nods her head in appreciation to Steward Lhunithiel. "Many thanks for your time and willingness to help us, good Steward!" :) :D :) "And many thanks to my classmates as well, for making and correcting the exam questions," she smiles. "This first test was fun!"

To myself:
Bad Elennainie for giving both Hurin & gate7ole an incorrect sentence. You're right, gate7ole, #7 should be "nissi" with two "s" 's. Hurin, I forgot the diaresis an "anvanyë" on #9. So sorry, I should have been more careful.

To gate7ole:
Excellent! I only found two mistakes:

5. Oromë tultëar Eldar (to Valinor). "tultëar" should be "tultëa" singular, b/c Orome is singular.

5. One bird is singing under the willow, under the Moon. Again, "willow" should be "willows", plural.


To Hurin Thalion
9. Caitëa (on) i talan nar carnë parma, ninquë sar, ar i anvanye aiwet. = On the floor there is lying: a red book, a white stone and the fairest bird. "Aiwet" should be "a pair of birds" (dual plural). The rest is great.

3. I mori sardi caitëar nu i antaura oron.
=The black stone lies under the mightiest mountain. "mori sardi" should be "black stones" plural, and "caitear" should be "are lying". The rest is great.

10. Three mighty kings are seizing a people.
=Neldë arani ná mapëar minë lie.
Correct quenya is: Neldë taurë arani mapëár lie.

3. A pair of horses are lying (on) the biggest mountain.
= Atta roccor ná caitëar i alta oronti.
Correct english is: Roccot caitëar (on) i analta oron. "Roccot" is dual plural "a pair of..." Also, "na" is not needed.

9. Eärendil is the brightest (star). (star = elen)
= Eärendil ná i elen ancalimë.
"ancalimë" should be "ancalima", singular b/c only one star. The rest is great.

10. 7. The Moon is summoning two white maidens.
= I isil ná tultëa i atta vendi.
Correct quenya is: Isil tultëa atta ninqui vendi. No "i" is needed, b/c "Isil" is a proper noun. Again, no "na" needed", and ninqui is white (plural).

Hurin, you might want to review the dual plural and the present tense verbs. A verb like "tultëa" already has "is" included in the verb "is summoning", so you don't need "na". Only use "na" and "nar" when there isn't another verb. E.g. The maiden is wise. The horse is great.


So, do you want me to take notes on all that follows that quote? That is on the bottom of page 3 and top of page 4. Please respond soon so I know whether I need to take notes on it or not. Calimehtar, Just do whatever you think is best for us learning quenya properly. I'd say go ahead and take the notes, imo, better too much than not enough. Hurin and gate7ole, what do you two think?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Elennainie
Calimehtar, Just do whatever you think is best for us learning quenya properly. I'd say go ahead and take the notes, imo, better too much than not enough. Hurin and gate7ole, what do you two think? [/B]
I too PM Calimehtar about the subject and told him(?) to do whatever he chooses, since he's the professor of the lesson. IMO it would be good the summary to have some irregulars.

[Calimehtar]

OK, I stopped reading at about that point because I was getting tired. I will pick up on it now and add in the important stuff.

BTW, Lhun. just PM-ed me asking if I would be a Judge for the Tests for you three... what will I be doing? I thought the tests were over.

[Elennainie]

I thought they were over as well, except I don't know how I did on Hurin's questions yet.

[gate7ole]

Calimehtar, are you going to post some exercises for us? If you don't have time, I can help you. They are necessary.

[Calimehtar]

Please do if you have time.

[goofoofighter]

Hey all! I hope you don't mind, I would like to join you in your Quenya lessons. I've tried to learn Elvish before, and a few people have joined me, but it didn't go very far considering we found out the one we were studying was wrong... -_-'' But I look forward to starting again. :)

[gate7ole]

Goofoofighter, you are more than welcome to join our effort.

Right now we're on chapter 6 of the course. If you know the plural and present tense, then you won't have problem following this lesson which is "past tense".
Read the summary Calimehtar made for us and try to solve some of the exercises. They can be found at the thread titled "Quenya Lesson 6".
If you want to read the 4 previous lessons take a look at the thread titled "Quenya lessons 1-4".
(PS. There is no lesson numbered 5).

[Elennainie]

Welcome goofoofighter! Go Wisconsin! (I'm from there originally.) We're glad to have you! :) If you have any questions or would like extra practice to help you catch up, feel free to PM me. I'm sure my fellow classmates would be willing as well. Let us know if we can help.

[gate7ole]

I think that we have to change the scheme of our lessons. The idea with the exercises doesn’t work too well. What do I suggest?
During those 5 lessons, I realized that I understood better each lesson when I prepared the exercises, when I wrote 20 sentences of my own, using words and rules from all the previous chapters. This is IMO the best way to learn the language.
So, I suggest that instead of one person doing the exercises, everyone could write about 10 sentences of his/her own and post them to the lesson-thread. Then possible errors might be discussed etc. This way, everyone gets the proper exercise and is more active during all lessons. (Of course there will still be a summary)
What do you say? Should we change it at the next lesson?

PS. I believe that everyone has learnt the past-tense. We will soon continue with the next lesson and it won’t be good to have gaps in the tenses.

[Elennainie]

Well, just my opinion here, but I thought the classes were going very well the way they were. The idea with the exercises doesn’t work too well. What exactly doesn't work about them? I'm open to changing, but I don't understand really what is wrong with the way they are.

Do you mean that when someone is the professor, he/she doesn't get much practice? If so, I'll be glad to provide some extra exercises whenever someone wants them. And everyone should feel free to do so also. I know you personally have had to do this for the past two lessons, so perhaps this is the problem. It's not fair to you, because then you don't have any exercises to do to practice, which is ESSENTIAL! I'll post some new exercises for lesson 5 so you have some, and I'm sorry if you have been short-shifted.

I enjoy having a different professor for each lesson. We all give our own slant on the lesson and this has been very helpful for learning purposes. You might put something a certain way that I hadn't thought of, etc.

PS. I believe that everyone has learnt the past-tense. We will soon continue with the next lesson and it won’t be good to have gaps in the tenses. I'm the only one who has posted any answers to the lesson 5 exercises! Please, everyone, if you have done them, please post your answers.

[gate7ole]

Elennanie, I meant the opposite. That a professor learns more about the lesson, because he has to write some sentences from the scratch. This helps a lot.
What I see wrong with the way of our classes is that the others excpet for the professor have only to do some exercises. They aren't so active as the professor.
Since there's only 4 of us, we can exercise the new rules and words by writing our own sentences, posting them and being corrected by the fellow-students. This is IMO better than solving some exercises.
Let's wait for the opinion of the others on the matter.

[Elennainie]

O.K. I understand now. (So humor me and do some of those new exercises I just misunderstanding-ly posted for you! ;) ) People have different learning styles. You like to learn by writing sentences. I like to learn by doing the exercises and reading the summary someone else has put into his own words. I find the exercises essential and always wish there were more to do. I need lots of practice solving other people's stuff, not just writing my own sentences. When I have to look for errors, it messes me up b/c then my brain memorizes the incorrect word instead of the correct one. So how about a compromise of both writing our own sentences, as you suggested, and a professor making exercises.
Without the exercises, I am doomed. Trust me.

[gate7ole]

OK, we can both be satisfied. The lessons will continue as before and I (and everyone else who wants), when I won't be the professor, will write and post sentences at the lesson-thread.

[gate7ole]

I don't know if the rest of the class have learnt the past, but I think you should proceed with the next lesson. These chapters seem to me rather easy, since we only have to memorize a few simple rules and 12 words.
I remember Elennainie had voluntered for the next lesson, right?

[Elennainie]

Sorry I've been away for 2 days. Yes, let the reading of the next lesson (Future Tense & Aorist) begin. I'll post a summary and exercises by Friday. Under our new system, anyone who wishes to contribute extra sentences to supplement the professor's exercises, may do so in the lesson thread. Someone still needs to answer g7o's exercises under number four, in chapter 5 (past tense). As soon as that is done, the answers can be posted.

P.S. Calimehtar, haven't heard from you in a while. Are you still in?

[Calimehtar]

Sorry, I'm been busy with other things. And haven't been on in a few days. Yes, I am still in.

[Elennainie]

Great! Feel like doing the number 4 exercises?

[Elennainie]

For instance, should the future tense of verbs like mat- "eat", top- "cover" and tac- "fasten" be mantuva "shall eat", tompuva "shall cover", tancuva "shall fasten"? (Compare the nasal-infixion in the past tense forms: mantë, tompë, tancë.) Or should we just add the ending -uva to the verbal stem without any further manipulations, hence matuva, topuva, tacuva instead?
from Fauskanger, lesson 7

O.k., I'd like to have everyone's (g7o, Hurin, Cali, & me) vote on this by Friday, so I can post my summary.

In our next lesson on aorist and future, Fauskanger says we can choose whether or not to change the verb stem to have a nasal inflixion (sp?) before adding the ending for the future tense (see quote above). I think we need to decide either yes or no on this so we'll all be consistent in our exercises and sentences for one another.
Please vote yes to have nasal inflexion or no to keep the stem unchanged.

Personally, I like having the nasal inflixion b/c it's consistent with what we learned for past tense (e.g. pn becomes mp, tn becomes nt, etc.) and more importantly, because, imo, the words sound better with the inflixion. Also, Fauskanger says:
I have used future tense forms with nasal-infixion in certain compositions of my own (and so have some people who put greater trust in my so-called "expert opinion" than they possibly should).

[gate7ole]

In for nasal inflixion!
Although this will cause a bit more comples rules for the future tense, I agree with Elennainie that is sounds better and seems more consistent with the tules of past tense.

[Elennainie]

If anyone is interested, I've posted my first attempt at Quenya poetry in the Guild of Tolkienology's Hall of Creative Endeavors:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=230101#post230101

It still needs refinement, and I'm not sure all the Quenya is correct, but there it is. The Quenya isn't a one-to-one exact translation of the English, because Quenya lacks the vocabulary for some of the words. I'm sure you, my dear schoolmates, can spot the differences! :)

[gate7ole]

Your poem was wonderful. And this is not just trying to be nice. In many instances you even worked the rhyme perfectly. I believe that the professor would be proud hearing you sing your poem in Quenya. At least I’m proud of my schoolmate.
I don’t know if you have studied so many chapters ahead, but I had difficulties in translating many words. How are you so advanced? I hope I’ll have the knowledge soon so that I will follow your steps.

[Elennainie]

Thank you so much, your words mean alot, gate7ole, truly! :) :o :)

I don’t know if you have studied so many chapters ahead, but I had difficulties in translating many words. How are you so advanced? Well, the truth is that I spent about 3 weeks translating that poem into Quenya! It took forever!!! I don't have time to study ahead in the course, but once I got into the poem, I found I couldn't translate it without knowing much more than I did. So I had to search all around trying to find the answers to what I needed to know. That's why the grammar is probably not 100% correct. I just tried to find the ending I needed, and I stuck it on the end of the word, without knowing if there should be nasal infixion, or whatever.

I look forward to reading some of your poems too!

[gate7ole]

It will take much time until I try to write anything in Quenya. I could use your system, checking the correct endings for each occasion, but I will wait.
And one thing about your poem. Shouldn’t it be “hendu” instead of hendi?

[Elennainie]

I used the normal plural "hendi" because I was describing many eyes (on all the swan ships taken together), as opposed to just one pair of eyes. If you find anything else that looks wrong, let me know. I'd love your feedback!

***Attention: the new lesson is posted, and is titled "Quenya Lesson 6b". As your "professor" for this lesson, I say that the first student to answer ten of the exercises fairly correctly, gets to put "Top Student in Quenya" in their signature for this week!!! On your mark, get set, GO!!!!***

Also, Cali, let's start your story idea - it'll be fun! You go first.

[gilgalad]

does anybody know where i can get a quenya course in pdf format, ie compatable with macintosh. they seem notoriously difficult to find.
yours without wax
gilgalad

[Elennainie]

Go to ardalambion.com . Click on the quenya course and scroll down all the way to the bottom. There should be a PDF version down at the bottom, but I haven't tried to download it. Once you've downloaded it, come join our class here! We're following the ardalambion one. Hope that helps, and welcome to the forum! :)

[gate7ole]

I would like to discuss a matter together about the lessons.
Should we keep the same pace? Originally we started to have a lesson per week. The last two lessons though, I see that Húrin and Calimehtar haven’t participated a lot. I understand that all of us have other things to do. I would like to keep this pace, so that we will have finished before summer. But if some of you can’t keep up, then we have to slow down. What do you say?

[Elennainie]

I'll do whatever is best for the group. My main concern is that the class continue to function. I am quite willing to slow down if that's what is needed, or to keep the same pace as is best for gate7ole, if he is the only other person interested in continuing. If we choose to slow down, we could work on the story or sentences like you wanted, gate7ole, to keep our skills sharp while we all catch up. I look forward to hearing Hurin's and Calimehtar's thoughts on the matter.

[Calimehtar]

Yes, I havent even looked at 6b yet. I have been gone from the board about a week and a half. Anyways, with the slowing down, I will give you my "vote" or "oppinion" over the weekend, I am going to try to catch up.

Sorry,
Calimehtar

PS. BTW, thanks for inviting me to that debate, Gate. (Though it's probably too late now?)

[Calimehtar]

I resign from the Quenya Lessons.:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Elennainie]

:( I'm very sorry to see you go, Calimehtar! :( Let us know if you ever want to jump back in.

[gate7ole]

Since Calimehtar left the course and Hurin hasn't been heard for weeks, Elennainie and me will continue the course alone. If someone of them returns, they are welcome of course...
We decided to keep one thread for all the lessons (and this one for the discussions). So, in the end there will be one thread with all the chapters and their exercises.

Elennainie-Frodo, we will continue our quest and cast the Ring of ignorance to the deepest crack of Orodruin.

[Elennainie]

Elennainie-Frodo, we will continue our quest and cast the Ring of ignorance to the deepest crack of Orodruin.

Sigh...yes, we will continue until the end, but there will be less joy in it, for the lack of our companions who are sorely missed. :( Come, let us continue...

[Calimehtar]

Hurin quit too?.... well good luck at finishing... if you stay with it, you should be finishing up with the course by summer...

Good Luck,
Calimehtar